ENERGY AMPLIFICATION

[wattsup]

@tinman

Thanks a heep but listen man, I do not want you to dirty your hands on my account. I can take care of myself but I do appreciate your input, your works and your devotion.

The problem is the discussion should have stayed on topic without personal attacks that are not worth any rebuttal on my part. All I talked about was the patent, then all of a sudden it just got shifted into redneck alley. Not good for anyone. What the hell. Is there only one way to see a Tesla Patent?

@Magluvin

Well good to see some @members do not mind pushing their grey matter above the nose line. I will try to answer after each quote. But let's take it slowly, step by step.

I just explained the mech rectification in my last post.

I cannot picture that at all. Don't forget that inductors "discharge" when disconnected but the inductor is always connected. Capacitors discharge when connected but the capacitor is always connected as well. The object of the patent is not to discharge anything. The working primary and secondary wind relations are already set up for a high step up so a discharge on the primary is not required, only a change in polarity is required. The high voltage for ozone production is already in the winds of the working primary and secondary. So the object of the patent is two fold. Produce as much complete change in polarity in the primary. In these cases usually the primary is a one layer wind of not that many turns but if you can change the polarity across the total length of that primary from positive to negative, then more of that primary length that changes polarity, the change hence the more impress is conveyed to the secondary for step up. The second object of the patent is to maintain steady air flow across the high voltage secondary arc that will push the produced ozone out of the system at a steady rate, not too fast to dilute the gas and not to slow to be overly concentrated. These are two only requirements for this patent to be useful. Produce ozone and make it exit the device at a measured flow rate to produce a given ozone concentration or dosage level.

The inductance of the motor is a large inductance. Just as simply explained in the Tesla Igniter pat. The igniter pat shows how to charge the cap to a high potential using very little input current.

OK, if you had a TV flyback transformer that has a 10 turn primary and a 1000 turn secondary, do you need to discharge a capacitor into the primary? No. The step up is already set-up in the wind ratios. If the same transformer only had a 50 turn secondary and you wanted high voltage, then you would want to discharge a capacitor but that capacitor would need a diode to hold the charge you wish to discharge.

In the Ozone patent, the capacitor is in series directly to the positive rail of the source so any increase in voltage above the source voltage would leak back into the source and not be available for any discharge. The capacitor is not discharging anything. It is simply being used as an expansion point so potential can change in the complete length of the primary. Or consider it a way of using the capacitor as a second coil that provides simple throughput for any matching potential which will be made evident further down.

So first, do you agree that you need two potentials to charge a capacitor? If yes, then from where does the capacitor get its negative potential to then charge, hold a charge and then discharge? hahaha 

The large inductor is large enough that the timing of the points in the engine (in his illustration is just the switch at a particular position of the piston) when the engine is running, that the cap is at a much higher potential by the time the points switch connects.

This is a little confusing. Engine, piston, engine is running, seems to not follow the patent.

Lets say that the large inductor has completed charging the cap via field collapse.

There is no "field collapse" because the inductance is always connected.

Sure the cap with a larger potential could possibly reverse its way back to the lower potential input if the switching did not occur fast enough or not at all. But field collapse currents of an inductor happen way faster than the time it takes for charging up the 'Large' inductor. So even when the engine is at its lower rpm or sluggish start, the cap should still hold a much higher potential than the input before discharging.

Hmmmm. Hard to explain. The relationship between a high inductance coil and a capacitor will not produce high voltage in the capacitor. It will only fill up the capacitor to higher uF ratings faster, but not at more voltage. If you want to fill up a capacitor of high UF, you take a high inductance coil is series and your capacitor will fill up much faster because the potential from either side will want to reach the circuit center point which is somewhere in the inductor so the capacitor is seen a mild inconvenience, whereas when you connect the battery to the capacitor both ends advance and have equal footing in the capacitor and fight in the center. That's what slows things down. More on that further down.

Oh boy, lots to cover maybe more then I can in a few paragraphs. So let's start with the same question. Do you agree that the motor inductor needs two polarities to rotate? So we know the motor inductor is getting a constant negative potential but how is it getting the positive potential? Then do you agree that the motor inductor is not reversing in polarity since the motor would then turn in the other direction? So it is always getting the same polarities. Agree? For the motor fan to be useful it has to run at a steady rate. Right or wrong? I have worked with large ozone generators and the air flow has to be steady, measured and constant.

Seems like you guys never talk about circuits in the two polarities but only as being a circuit with electrons traveling in one direction so you never can consider each polarity because for you guys, both polarities create only one effect, electron flow in one direction that is supposed to be constant and equal throughout the circuit. That is where the Tesla patent shines above the rest in its simplicity to show that no, each polarity has its own conveyance direction more like two forces meeting like when you play with a slinky toy.

So like mentioned before, the Tesla Patent does not require a capacitor to discharge.

When the cap is discharged into the very low turn, low impedance, low resistance, low inductance of a step up transformer primary, it is now putting the large inductor directly across the input source of which gets the currents flowing in the large inductor so when the discharge switch is opened, the large inductor dumps its field collapse currents into the cap, and repeat.

OK, so now you are talking about the actual rotary switch and relation with the fan motor as in the form of high inductance. But again here we do not need to discharge a cap because the primary/secondary relations are already set by their wind numbers. Look all the primary wants to see is polarity change and here Teslas' simple solution does not discharge a capacitor.

If you are to talk about coil inductance as a source of "field collapse" don't forget that this is not a coil but a DC motor with the sole load of having to turn a small fan and a rotary switch. So we can say there is no load so the rotor of the motor will be turning with little input in comparison of like when a dc motor is run fully loaded then released. So the fan motor should not be a source of high field collapse required to charge a series to source connected capacitor that then needs to discharge that supposed charge on the working primary to then push a  higher then normal ozone producing high voltage off the secondary. Do you get the picture of how we can see this in many ways. We do tend to over-dramatize when we say things like field collapse that for me is no longer a possible phenomenon. Thinking that a field will leave the confines of an object and when the current is broken the field then collapsed back into the object like a well trained Jeanie is simply illogical and not required.

I remember I had talked about this many months ago and even then @Erf castrated me without haste and reserve so I am not surprised of his attack on me in the manner he did. No problem.

Id say instead of trying to make a simulation or an animation of the circuit, try and build the circuit. It may never show you what the real thing is actually doing. And if the sim/anim draws you to a conclusion that the thing will not work for OU purposes, then i have to argue and differ with that conclusion as I could not find that conclusive.  Forget the fan, forget the motor and make it simpler with just a controlled switch and replace the motor part of the circuit with a large inductor. Maybe use a motor for the switching, but its windings would need to be of a large inductance, value, where a lot of them today may not work for this. So use a speed controllable motor to do the switching but have a large inductance in place of that portion of the circuit. Or try a dozen other ways to do the switching and no motor at all.  Could build a high inductance motor with the armature windings and stator windings in series and make it as original as possible.  That part is probably what veers people away from it as that would be most of the lot of work in the project and may consider it too difficult.
Mags

Let me think about this one. I am not going to do anything right now simply because my work load to prepare SC is just all encompassing right now.

OK,  so let me ask you. Do you need both polarities across the primary when the capacitor discharges? So how then is the capacitor discharging across the working primary? The capacitor spends all its time on the positive rail of source. So how is it discharging a positive and negative to the primary?

It all then boils down to how you perceive what a polarity is. We want change across the Primary. When the rotary switch is open the positive conveys through the capacitor, then the right side of the primary and exits the left side of the primary to then land on the fan motor to provide a first dc+ to the fan motor. The rotary switch then closes so now the positive hits the fan motor directly while it hits the left side of the primary and passes it to land in the capacitor.

So what just happened? Well if all we wanted is change in the primary, then you just got that change but not in a positive/negative way. Tesla used the positive to rebias the working primary from one side, then from the other side while he uses the capacitor as a virtual source of negative that gets rebaised. The fact that the primary is between an inductor on the left and a capacitor on the right both are acting as landing points for the positive polarity as it completely passes the primary one way, then the other way. Tesla just solved Half Coil Syndrome by pulsing the primary with a positive from one side, then the other side so basically, the primary is being run for free while he spends a little energy on the non-loaded fan motor and while any possible momentary increase in voltage in the capacitor from the second positive reclaim of the primary is fed back to the source. It is still fantastic from either perspective.

One basic change many can try in their mindset as a easy way of stepping out of the box. Some say the DC battery makes electrons travel from positive to negative and some say it's negative to positive. So imagine. It's like saying this one way road can be driven in both directions. And all seem fine with that. So maybe try to modify this one notion whichever you espouse for just 30 days, to this. Both polarities convey into the circuit from both ends up to the center of the circuit which, for most systems, is at the center or around center of a good inductor. So now, nobody can be wrong. Try it, connect a coil directly onto the leads of your battery. High chance it will blow in the center. Why? Because when two opposing forces converge, things usual blow up at the point of convergence. The frontline, the blotch. Then think about this. All measurements you ever made on your circuits could be explained by both polarities advancing into the circuit. You just always looked at it in another mono-directional way but funny we only have positive diodes so of course you can only see in one direction because your are concentrating more on where the diodes block the positive. So the directionality is coming more from the use of the diode then from the natural bi construct of electricity. Tesla did not use diodes so when he says potential, he rarely identifies them as positive and negative because most of his circuits are balanced, symmetrical, except in the Ozone Patent he decided to  play a new game. Spend for fan motor but freely pulse the primary.

This could all be confirmed on a bench by driving a small fan motor with, then without, the ozone production and rotary switch. It could be a fan motor, one flyback transformer,  one capacitor, then the fan and rotary method. If adding the later does not increase consumption or very slightly, then you know what he was trying to do. That would be an epic bench work worth the time.

@Erf

Regardless of what you say to me, if you ever want an outside look into your ideas, let me know. Try to loosen up man. Life is too short.

@all

If you have questions,  please think them through yourself first then ask me a better question. i figured out that this 30 day thing is the easiest way to start, even without looking into SC, if used will start a process in your mind and gradually create a new space in your mind that will act like a referee while you work through your own comparatives. Then all of a sudden something will click and you will never work the same way again.

When you pulse the negative on a coil, you are letting the negative convey to the coil because the positive is already in the coil from the already connected other coil terminal. When you pulse the positive on a coil, you are letting the positive convey to the coil because the negative is already in the coil from the already connected other coil terminal. So you only saw half of the true action till now. Ain't that great, there's way more to discover.

A battery of 12 volts. If electricity flowed from one to the other polarity, why does a short circuit break in the center? Why are both wire points of contact at the battery terminal cooler then the center of the wire? I did a video on that many years ago.

All the best.

wattsup

[Magluvin]

This is the simplest version. The igniter pat diagram below.

Notice the dc source is in series with the large inductance and the capacitor, they are always connected.

When circuit D is closed, it connects the primary F of the spark coil across the cap, F being a very low ohm, low inductance coil, then becomes like a closed switch across the capacitor, in turn causing currents to build in the large inductor. When D opens, the large inductor now unloads its field collapse into the cap of a higher voltage than the dc source. The next time circuit D is closed, that caps charge is dumped into the spark primary. With the time allotted for D to be closed, the cap and primary ring down in resonance most likely giving a longer spark life than just one quick high voltage jump. Sort of an MSD effect. When D is opened again, the cap is probably fully discharged and will take on the next field collapse from the large inductor once more.

Back when I did some experiments on this I found that putting a diode from the left side of the source E to the bottom lead of the large inductor  H so the inductor could dump its charge into the cap without having the battery source in series with the inductive discharge as I could see that it would pull from the battery also while the large inductor charged the cap if the diode were not there.

But lets look at it a bit differently....

Lets say the cap and coil were allowed enough time when D is open to charge the cap to peak and then like a good LC should, reverse direction until the cap is charged to peak in the opposite polarity and then discharged. Well then we have sent some back to the battery during the cap charging cycle and we still have a cap charged to a high voltage for discharge in the primary.

I have been wanting to put this back on the bench for some time. i have most everything I need to set it up and try some new things I have thought of over the years and this conversation inspires me to do so.

Lets see what I come up with

Mags

[wattsup]

@Magluvin

Wow, I got your PM's with @MH and deleted them. Not interested in has been blabber.

If anything sunk in from my previous post, then this Igniter Patent holds the same rules.

First off, look at the positive side of that battery. Where is it going? Yes to a high inductance coil (HIC) and the battery positive will never pass the half way mark of that coil. The negative will pass the cap in a flash and enter the HIC from the other end. This means what? Tesla is using only the negative to produce a negative rebias to the primary when the switch is open and a negative impulse in the other direction through the primary when the switch is closed. That's how the primary change occurs because again, all you want is change over the primary.

Again the primary/secondary winds are already set up for a high voltage step up so you do not really need a capacitor to discharge. In this setup the capacitor is acting more like a resistor because the tension on the other side of the capacitor going to the other side of the HIC is lower then the negative tension that turns left before the capacitor and heads straight for the switch. When the switch closes, that negative line will shoot through the primary and head right into the HIC from that negative side.

So again a masterpiece because Tesla is doing this only with the negative side of the battery. The positive is just sitting there in the first half of the HIC creating the landing point where the negative higher tension that bypasses the capacitor then going to the switch wants to land and fight against the positive still waiting in the HIC and if they had their way, they would blow that HIC up. The fight is not in the primary. It is at the center most point of the circuit that is usually in an HIC.

Now, Tesla describes this as he can, at the time and based on his vision of electricity but when you read that patent it is full of inconsistencies that no one would notice if all kept the same perspective. 

So if anyone disagrees, including @MH, without insults, then tell me what happens to the positive after it enters the HIC?

I could write much more but will let it at that for now.

wattsup

[Magluvin]

@Magluvin

Wow, I got your PM's with @MH and deleted them. Not interested in has been blabber.

If anything sunk in from my previous post, then this Igniter Patent holds the same rules.

First off, look at the positive side of that battery. Where is it going? Yes to a high inductance coil (HIC) and the battery positive will never pass the half way mark of that coil. The negative will pass the cap in a flash and enter the HIC from the other end. This means what? Tesla is using only the negative to produce a negative rebias to the primary when the switch is open and a negative impulse in the other direction through the primary when the switch is closed. That's how the primary change occurs because again, all you want is change over the primary.

Again the primary/secondary winds are already set up for a high voltage step up so you do not really need a capacitor to discharge. In this setup the capacitor is acting more like a resistor because the tension on the other side of the capacitor going to the other side of the HIC is lower then the negative tension that turns left before the capacitor and heads straight for the switch. When the switch closes, that negative line will shoot through the primary and head right into the HIC from that negative side.

So again a masterpiece because Tesla is doing this only with the negative side of the battery. The positive is just sitting there in the first half of the HIC creating the landing point where the negative higher tension that bypasses the capacitor then going to the switch wants to land and fight against the positive still waiting in the HIC and if they had their way, they would blow that HIC up. The fight is not in the primary. It is at the center most point of the circuit that is usually in an HIC.

Now, Tesla describes this as he can, at the time and based on his vision of electricity but when you read that patent it is full of inconsistencies that no one would notice if all kept the same perspective. 

So if anyone disagrees, including @MH, without insults, then tell me what happens to the positive after it enters the HIC?

I could write much more but will let it at that for now.

wattsup

Yeah sorry about the pms.  I didnt make the multi person pm list, MH did.  I only replied to him a couple times there and I know that he wants that fight to continue, so he has something to do with himself. He does this once every month or 2 to get his nickers wet.  Everything is all nice and quiet and he does this and makes a list of the recipients to bother with his same rants he used many times before to do the same. I dont start these things with him. He just pops up and does it when he feels the need. Nuff said

As you had said earlier about making an animation or sim to try, well running the circuit on Circuit Sim works quite well in seeing what different large inductor, cap values and timing of the switch(I run it about 10%duty and adjust from there if needed) can do.  I just ran it last night for giggles and I was able to do as I had said of the possible ways.  If the switching is quick enough, then the large inductor never really stops flowing current in the same direction. If the switch timing is made longer in timing between switchings, it can get to a point where the large inductor and cap basically have a cycle of resonance before the switch closes again, where the cap is charged higher than the input voltage, then the cap reverses the inductor currents back to the battery, charging direction, and when the cap is at peak negative voltage of the resonant cycle, the switch closes, cap dumps into the primary and the cycle repeats. Simulated it many many times in many many variations. Im very familiar with how that circuit works.  One of my vids used this circuit to drive a pulse motor, AND I was able to use the large inductor placed at a particular point around the rotor to use its field to help drive the motor faster than without it there. That was a 2 for 1 deal that worked out well for me.

Im not sure I understand your description of what you think is happening in that circuit. Maybe you can simplify or describe it in detailed chronological order from one switching to the next.

Mags

[Magluvin]

Again rereading your description, I dont follow your separation of the battery into 2 entities of a pos and neg as if the battery in between is not a part of the circuit and the pos and neg are not in sync in the circuit.  Just dont get it

Mags