Where will the energy come from, to run a Magnet Motor?

[TinselKoala]

Where will the energy come from, to run a Permanent Magnet Motor?

I hope we all know what we mean by PMM so a lengthy definition section won't be necessary.

Where does magnetism come from in the first place?
Well, it's a big mystery, but we do know this: all magnetic fields seem to be produced by moving electric charges.
And fundamentally, the electrons in their orbital shells and orbits are the moving charges that give materials (atoms) their magnetic properties. So electrons whirl around in their orbits (creating magnetic fields) and they also spin (creating magnetic fields.) The orbits and spins have definite orientations, and so do the fields they create. It turns out that in most atoms the orbital motions cancel, mostly, and so do the spins, so what's left over, for each atom, may only be one or two or three unbalanced spins or unpaired orbital electrons. Or none at all.
So a material has all these little atoms, each with a certain "magnetic moment" that is a result of its unbalanced spins and orbitals, if any.

The process of magnetization uses energy to do work on these atoms by producing a torque on the atoms' magnetic moments that will align the atoms (and their fields) more or less with the magnetizing field. Some of the magnetizing energy is lost, in hysteresis, eddys, and is dissipated as heat. NONE of the magnetizing energy actually affects the magnetic moment, or intrinsic magnetization, of the individual atoms--the source of the field.

Demagnetization, whether deliberate through the use of a deGussing system, or accidental, by moving magnets past each other in repulsion, is the reverse of this process, and also requires energy (not liberates it), some of which is lost in hysteresis, eddys, magnetic viscosity, and ultimately heat.

Now, the orbital and spin motions of electrons in the atoms are pretty much beyond our influence under the conditions any of us are likely to be able to achieve in our garages or basement kitchens. We aren't going to be able to access whatever energy it might be that keeps an electron spinning, or moving around in the unpaired orbital --- except, say, by chemical means: the ferrous ion has different magnetic properties than the ferric ion, due to different electron  pairing,  for example ---

So I ask the question: Disregarding for the moment all that stuff about closed paths in conservative fields of force, just Where TF is the energy to run our magnet motors supposed to come from? Because the Magnetic Field is not a source of energy, just as the Motion of your car isn't a source of energy. (You can extract power from a _change_ in motion, and also from a _change_ in a magnetic field. The problem, of course, is repeating the change indefinitely. That takes work, from outside.)

(Edit to add: If anybody chimes in with "cold fusion mode" or "zero point energy" or "Phase conjugated time-reversed Heaviside quaternions" I sure hope they have some references to actual real data to back them up.)

[lostcauses10x]

LOL if you do not think a moving car has energy, stand in front of one.

As for your argument, well folks want to believe, so they will. No mater what one does such will continue to be presented.

Ah magnets are good for an exchange of force.
Yep the question is were does the energy that could be used come from. Same goes with the gravity wheel or drive.

This with all of the devices in the game of OU is such a question. Where would or does the energy come from.

If I had such an answer, our energy problems might be solved ehh???

[Yucca]

Hi TK,

I have no substantial data to back any of this up (at the moment):

Steorns ideas are pretty interesting. If the hysterisis curve of a material can be somehow made asymetric then a PMM is achievable. If this is possible then I can only imagine that any asymetry would be fuelled by background quantum noise:

If the the material exhibited some atomic scale mechanism (Maxwells demon) that could rectify the noise then perhaps it could be downconverted into the macro world by interacting with the hysterisis using PMs, but I suspect a very sharp field change will be needed for one side of the transaction to get useful energy so solid state would be best, perhaps the effect would be too small to see in a purely mechanical system, lost in the noise.

Another idea; If it´s possible to create a localised temporal distortion field then any half of an oscillatory system could be subjected to such a field which is phase locked to the oscillator, and OU would ooze out. PMs could be used, but the simplest way would be to subject the L or C of an LC tank to said field and badda bing... were running with gain, venturing boldly into the right hand side of the pole zero chart, without batteries.

[lostcauses10x]

Yet is really electricity energy?? Such is again just a transfer from other sources of energy and not the most efficient of that.  That electron flow thing does not happen by itself.

Are you sure? How do you think conduction works?

Didn't we use atoms every day to conduct heat, electricity, sound, etc.? Aren't those so called electrons a part of the process?

[lostcauses10x]

Then we get into why are they in motion?

Right, but aren't  those "electron's" (atom's)  in motion, before we use them to transfer energy?

Edit: The point what I try to make, when we use an atomic system to conduct, transfer energy, we use a system which is already in motion.