Does Anyone Know What's Happened to Dr. Timothy Thrapp & Co?

[Bob Smith]

reason never accompanies faith. if something is reasonable, you don't need faith.

Well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree there. Faith certainly embraces what reason alone cannot explain - but an assent of faith cannot be made without reason. In order to have faith in something or someone, doing such has to based on some form of reasoning, which serves as a foundation for a so-called 'leap of faith.' Otherwise it is what you call "blind." I don't subscribe to blind faith. I gather that you do not either, so I guess we can agree on this one point.

faith is a belief 'not resting on logical proof or material evidence.' your response does not address my question, you're just dancing around it. i'll repeat it.

just exactly how do you consider blind faith in imaginary savior entities to be "honestly seeking after the truth"

Well, I think I've answered the first part of our question. I don't subscribe to blind faith without logic or some sort of evidence or reason. If this question remains for you, it will have to be someone else who needs to answer it, as I quite literally cannot.

As far as "imaginary savior entities," I have one comment on your use of the word "imaginary."  With respect to you as a reasonable person, I wouldn't expect anyone to put their faith in someone's talk of imaginary entities, savior or otherwise.  I doubt that you would either.  If it is imaginary, then as a reasonable person, it would be ridiculous for you or I to put faith in it.

As far as the word "savior" is concerned...
     Well, when I was a child, I put my faith in my mother's being there to welcome me home after school. I had experienced her caring presence, and believed in her unconditional interest in my well-being. I put faith in my father's presence as a caring guardian based on my reasoning that emerged from having experienced his care for me.  However, my parents both had their failings...
     I put my faith in friends, teachers, bosses at work and colleagues, who although well-meaning to various degrees all failed me in some ways - my faith, through this painful realization, was badly misplaced.
     One by one all the persons and things (e.g., money, success, reputation) I had put faith in failed me. As a younger man, I finally found myself sick in bed with no one there, and no one else to put my faith in. The witness of others around me about a God interested in my welfare became my only reasonable option left. Having exhaused all unreasonable options, I entrusted myself completely to one through whom the reasoning of others I had known as God - a leap of faith based on reason. I was ready to die either way.
     In this act of faith, I found peace that was rooted in understanding, and yet went beyond it. That peace has never left me. And so my assent of faith has become a relationship with a divine Person whose being surpasses all other beings, persons or things (which also have failed to bring me peace).  I have lived now for over 20 years with this peace. It has stood the test of time, and has never disappointed me. 

We are all free creatures. If anyone can find deep true and lasting peace to sustain them, to bring perspective and meaning in any other way, they are free to do so. I have made my choice, and have never had reason to believe otherwise, as faith and reason do and must go together.
I would not recommend that anyone make an assent in faith to anything that is not based on reason. I have answered as honestly and directly as I can.

[Bob Smith]

In saying that, I will be the first to say that I do not know of what is real out there. From my own experiences, it does seem that science and spirituality (not religion) seem to be coming closer together.

Have a good day.

Brad

Brad, I think you'll find my response to your opinions on 'blind faith' in my previous post. Seems we can all agree blind faith is not a good thing.

I agree in principle with your comment on science and spirituality. For me, spirituality is the way people live their faith. If by 'religion' you mean the empty practice of ritual with no corresponding deep conversion to love of neighbour, I am with you. Lots of very religious people out there whose example would cause me to stay far away.

For me, if religion does not foster faith, then it isn't doing its job. Religion is at the service of faith, which in addition to being at the service of finding ultimate meaning, is also at the service of truth, as is science. If religion fails in its job of fostering faith's search for truth, it should not be brought into science - it can poison science if it does not seek the truth, and yet insists on guiding and informing scientific inquiry. In fact, I would say that one can be a religious person and a person of faith, and simply do good science without ever mentioning religion or science. But some see their work as a form of witness to what they believe, and feel compelled to speak about it - that's okay; I think the world's a big enough place to allow for this. We can all test the words of others and make our reasonable decisions.  Personally, I think the witness of genuine human kindness speaks about faith more loudly than anything else, tho' sometimes words are necessary.
All the best,
Bob

[WilbyInebriated]

Well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree there. Faith certainly embraces what reason alone cannot explain - but an assent of faith cannot be made without reason. In order to have faith in something or someone, doing such has to based on some form of reasoning, which serves as a foundation for a so-called 'leap of faith.' Otherwise it is what you call "blind." I don't subscribe to blind faith. I gather that you do not either, so I guess we can agree on this one point.
Well, I think I've answered the first part of our question. I don't subscribe to blind faith without logic or some sort of evidence or reason. If this question remains for you, it will have to be someone else who needs to answer it, as I quite literally cannot.

As far as "imaginary savior entities," I have one comment on your use of the word "imaginary."  With respect to you as a reasonable person, I wouldn't expect anyone to put their faith in someone's talk of imaginary entities, savior or otherwise.  I doubt that you would either.  If it is imaginary, then as a reasonable person, it would be ridiculous for you or I to put faith in it.

As far as the word "savior" is concerned...
     Well, when I was a child, I put my faith in my mother's being there to welcome me home after school. I had experienced her caring presence, and believed in her unconditional interest in my well-being. I put faith in my father's presence as a caring guardian based on my reasoning that emerged from having experienced his care for me.  However, my parents both had their failings...
     I put my faith in friends, teachers, bosses at work and colleagues, who although well-meaning to various degrees all failed me in some ways - my faith, through this painful realization, was badly misplaced.
     One by one all the persons and things (e.g., money, success, reputation) I had put faith in failed me. As a younger man, I finally found myself sick in bed with no one there, and no one else to put my faith in. The witness of others around me about a God interested in my welfare became my only reasonable option left. Having exhaused all unreasonable options, I entrusted myself completely to one through whom the reasoning of others I had known as God - a leap of faith based on reason. I was ready to die either way.
     In this act of faith, I found peace that was rooted in understanding, and yet went beyond it. That peace has never left me. And so my assent of faith has become a relationship with a divine Person whose being surpasses all other beings, persons or things (which also have failed to bring me peace).  I have lived now for over 20 years with this peace. It has stood the test of time, and has never disappointed me. 

We are all free creatures. If anyone can find deep true and lasting peace to sustain them, to bring perspective and meaning in any other way, they are free to do so. I have made my choice, and have never had reason to believe otherwise, as faith and reason do and must go together.
I would not recommend that anyone make an assent in faith to anything that is not based on reason. I have answered as honestly and directly as I can.

you can disagree, but you can't refute it with logic... an assent of faith cannot be made without fallacious reason. furthermore, words have definitions so we are all on the same page when using those words, making up definitions to suit your rationalizations is ridiculous. faith is a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."
faith in imaginary savior entities is the core precept of most religions, specifically christianity. they have FAITH that a savior will save them. it's called FAITH because there is not one shred of evidence that such a being exists, nor can logic 'prove' the existence of said savior... therefore imaginary is not so far off. i'm not saying a 'creator' CAN'T exist, i am saying BELIEVING in one without a shred of evidence is FAITH, blind or otherwise is irrelevant... if one applies reason, the conclusion is thus: the most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by homo sapiens is that the lord god of creation, shaper and ruler of the universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.

more to the topic, thrapp and his cohorts are about the farthest thing possible from 'christian', but then most that claim to be 'christian' do not follow christ's teachings...

[quarktoo]

you can disagree, but you can't refute it with logic... an assent of faith cannot be made without fallacious reason. furthermore, words have definitions so we are all on the same page when using those words, making up definitions to suit your rationalizations is ridiculous. faith is a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."
faith in imaginary savior entities is the core precept of most religions, specifically christianity. they have FAITH that a savior will save them. it's called FAITH because there is not one shred of evidence that such a being exists, nor can logic 'prove' the existence of said savior... therefore imaginary is not so far off. i'm not saying a 'creator' CAN'T exist, i am saying BELIEVING in one without a shred of evidence is FAITH, blind or otherwise is irrelevant... if one applies reason, the conclusion is thus: the most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by homo sapiens is that the lord god of creation, shaper and ruler of the universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.

more to the topic, thrapp and his cohorts are about the farthest thing possible from 'christian', but then most that claim to be 'christian' do not follow christ's teachings...

I have no idea who you are but I finally found someone that THINKS like I do or even at all. You live in reality and that is difficult to find. You understand that words have meaning and the difference between a magical thought and reality. The direct and logical way you not only express those thoughts but stand your ground tells me that you have integrity at all thought levels.

I have searched the web for such a creature that has the same interests and thought processes as myself and had all but given up.

WilbyInebriated, if you would be willing to be my lord and savior, I would be honored. 

Sorry I gushed out my emotions there but just needed to take a moment to worship quite possibly the only other sane human on Earth.

PS - Are you hiring disciples? You do have a book deal yet? Christ didn't get a book deal until several hundred years after his death and it was written by people that had never met him and then edited thousands of times by people that had never met the writers.

If you look at a King James bible written prior to circa 1930 you will find the line - "five Gods came together and created man". Five ET species and all the evidence is in your DNA. Your DNA is more simple than a blade of grass or a fly but then it was custom engineered by the Gods.

Iconically, Thrapp is showing the skeletal remains of the giants that once roamed the Earth. Maybe he gets that aspect of creation after all is trying to use religion as a shield from taxes and the man. Regardless, by not sharing his knowledge makes him a capitalist either way. Christ was a communist, born of a virgin implanted by ET. There is a 2000 year old painting in France of Mary holding Jesus with a UFO parked behind her.

The bible is the history of ET creation of the Earth for anyone sane enough to know what they are reading.

[icanbeatbob]

Bob,
I am going to have to agree with Wil on this. Maybe not so strongly, but his rebuttal is certainly logical. Ask anyone why they believe the way they do about religion. My uncle, for instance, is a big christian. He says he believes because it is in the bible. Even though his wife, my aunt, suffers so much with illnesses. She is absolutely the most wonderful, generous, kind, compassionate and caring person one could ever meet. They believe god works in mysterious ways. It is in gods plan. With all do respect, anyone who has faith in any religion that allows the kind of suffering as we see today in many many good people is pretty screwed up.

You found something that made you feel better. You found peace in yourself so you believe and now have faith. I find that once this happens to someone of any religion, it is all but impossible for them to see beyond that, even though there is so much more to see. Faith in religion supposedly opens ones eyes. Faith in something that makes them feel better and has no bearing with reality. For me, I don't need the bible to understand what is right or wrong, good or bad. I knew that when I was 3. Also, I didn't need religion or faith to find myself.

Bob, please do not misunderstand me. I am not attacking. It is good that you found your peace, but to say you found understanding makes little sense. No one can possibly understand what is not understandable. I believe, what you found is something you can comprehend that allows your emotions to change to a state that makes you feel more comfortable. Truth in faith, like Wil said, is a belief, not resting on proof.

I do not condemn or oppose those with religious faith. If it works for you and does not impose on my life, then more power to you. I cannot change your mind because you have faith. Even if I could prove you wrong, your faith and religious beliefs would not allow you to accept it no matter how much proof there was. I sure wish you had some way of convincing me that your way was the right way. I am open to all that wish for others to do better, as long as it is not blind faith.

Regards,
Brad