The downfalls of conventional electrolysis - and how to fix them

[ramset]

Fellahs,
The talent is in the house!
Some of the best Open source Talent there is.

Chet

[dutchy1966]

This is how it's done in the WO 2010/066025A1 patent:

Step 1 Electrolyte

100% saturated solution NaOH + H2O becomes:

   Na+ + OH- + H2O


Step 2 Ionic sepearation

Either by EHD (electric), MHD (magnetic) or membrame technologies

   (mono ionic) Na+
   and
   (mono ionic) OH-

into separated tanks!


Step 3 Electric charge exchange

By way of an electric connection between the two mono ionic solutions,
free electricity can be taken from the system.

At the same time at the teminals in the ionic solutions the following reactions take place:

terminal 1: 4OH- - 4e-  =  2H2O + O2(gas) (hydroxyl is oxidezed to oxygen and water)

terminal 2: 4Na+ + 4e-  =  4Na (Cations are reduced to neutral atoms)

       4Na + 4 H2O =  4NaOH + 2H2(gas)

Ok so now we have (again!) NaOH + H2O ready to become electrolyte as in step 1 !


Step 4 Burn baby burn......

2H2 + O2 ready to be burned and give us lots of heat and water to refill the tank.

Seems all very straightforward and promising!!


So,
If we compare this to Alaska star's description the only difference seems to be the separation of the ionic species in step 2.
Therefore it would be fair to ask ourselfs if it is necessary to split the anions and cations in two separate tanks.

As I've have mentioned before, when we send a unidirectional (pulsating or not) magnetic field through the electrolyte the ions will get seperated in side the tank.
Lorentz forces will push them in different directions, the result is something like this:

Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
Na+ Na+  H2O H2O H2O OH- OH-
  |                                    |
  |_______ LOAD __________|


Wouldn't it then be possible to just put the terminals in the solution so that we get:
1 - current through a load
2 - 2H2 gas
3 - O2 gas
4 - Heat (exothermic reaction)


I always learned that as it seems to good to be true...it probably is.
So tell what is wrong with the above.....

regards,

Dutchy

[wojwrobel]

hello

thats what im talking about !!!!

splitting water and making electricity at the same time!!!

finaly someone that can read and think ... now all it left is to do!!

cheers and good luck
wojsciech

ps in attachments you will find EP2163514A1 patent in word format so you can translate with google it has some important info also....

[iquant]

Anyone have access to: Some Considerations on the Electrolysis of Water from Sodium Hydroxide Solutions ?

The unusually high solubilities and thermal coefficients of solubility of the alkali metal hydroxides make them attractive candidates for high-temperature electrolytic processes to produce high-pressure hydrogen. The feasibility of using strong sodium hydroxide (to keep down the saturation pressure of the condensed phase) electrolysis (to facilitate the separation of the hydrogen from oxygen over a liquid phase) at high temperatures (to increase the energy efficiency by substitution of process heat for electric power) and to increase the production rate in a given cell (by increasing the specific conductance of the working fluid) is explored and discussed. Suggestions are made for future research.

What happens when you drop a little sodium directly into over/super saturated NaOH solution?
Nothing until H20 is freed?

[iquant]

Check this out:  Electrolysis of molten NaOH,and sodium explosions.wmv

A novel method of hydrogen generation by water electrolysis using
an ultra-short-pulse power supply

By way of an electric connection between the two mono ionic solutions,
free electricity can be taken from the system.

At the same time at the teminals in the ionic solutions the following reactions take place:

terminal 1: 4OH- - 4e-  =  2H2O + O2(gas) (hydroxyl is oxidezed to oxygen and water)

terminal 2: 4Na+ + 4e-  =  4Na (Cations are reduced to neutral atoms)

       4Na + 4 H2O =  4NaOH + 2H2(gas)

Ok so now we have (again!) NaOH + H2O ready to become electrolyte as in step 1 !

[edit]
In the laboratory, with careful control of conditions, sodium metal can be isolated from the electrolysis of the molten monohydrate according to the following reaction:

    4 NaOH·H2O(l) â†' 4 Na(l) + O2(g) + 6 H2O(g)

"The monohydrate does not need to be heated in order to melt, as the process produces enough heat due to ohmic heating. However, it must be initiated with a small quantity of liquid water to create an electrically conductive electrolyte. As the system's temperature increases, the monohydrate will start to melt at about 65 °C as stated above. Only when the temperature reaches about 100 °C can sodium be isolated. Below this temperature, the water produced will react with the sodium, above this point, any water formed will be driven off in the vapour phase, creating an essentially anhydrous reaction. While this process has some advantages over other electrolytic processes, it is not preferred by most chemists for several reasons: a marginal quantity of sodium produced boils at the electrode interface, the vapour thus given off consists primarely of fumed sodium oxide, which tends settle on any surface in close proximity with corrosive consequences."

I'm guessing the NaOH solution we are trying to magnetolyze needs to run hot...  > 65.1C.