Relative Permittivity of Water

[kadora]

Hello everybody
I did simple experiment.I immersed two flat electrodes 60/60cm
into bucket full of tap water and then i connected 1V DC to
electrodes .After while i reconnected to electrodes LED diode and
diode lit for 15 sec.
I think this is prove that i had water capacitor.
Now my question.
What would happen if we have -say-ten simple water capacitors and charge them in parallel then discharge caps in serial circle.
Would flow higher discharge current through serial caps?

[Torana]

(Im guessing the above ^ is directed at everybody..) ?

The dielectric constant / permittivity scale has no units ,its dimensionless , its a Ratio and NOT measured in OHMs .

Dielectric constant of Air or vacuum is 1 = the reference number
Air = 1 , water = 80 , the ratio = 80 : 1

eg ,ONLY ;   If an air cap = 40 pf , and then water is added and measured at = 1.23 uf , the ratio = 1.23 / .000040 =   30750 : 1   ( based on someones actual measurements )

Most water caps will give a reading around 20000 times the air measurement. theres no average.
Its a simple thing to do , compare the 2 measurements taken and divide 1 by the other , take the ratio and enter it into the Capacitance calculator as the Dielectric figure and youll see your meter reading appear.
Which should reflect the accuracy of the C calculator , the C meter and the Ratio in 1 hit.

**This is simply disecting the capacitor formula to get a picture of what IS between the plates.
A constant of 20,000 ?  ..sound reasonable, peculiar,  strange , thru the roof, a recurring oddity...
The difference is OFF the chart  , once this test is done, the text book cant be quoted as 78.54 or 80 .
The formula C = e0 er A / d
e0 is a constant and wont change, A wont change , d wont change, er is the ONLY variable there.

The hyper physics calculator uses METRIC ONLY , uf on the left , pf on the right , tap the word *capacitance* for total.  Enter ratio in ' K ' .       Plate area A  ,  gap d  , your on your own.


CONCENTRIC = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html

PARALLEL = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

[MasterPlaster]

You may find this relevant

http://www.btinternet.com/~martin.chaplin/microwav3.html

[Torana]

MP , Yes , Thanx.


The ratio of the constants transfers over to freq and X calculations, using Air =1 as the reference.

Using 40 pf as an example at 10 khz, Xc = 1  / 2 pi f c
40 pf @ 10 khz = 397887.36 ohm
3.2 nf @ 10 khz = 4973.592 ohm
1.23 uf @ 10 khz = 12.939426 ohm

397887.36 / 80 = 4973.592
397887.36 / 30750 = 12.939426

( Calculating a compatible L for reso = Xc / 2 pi f ,  because Xc = XL .)

Another example using the ratio and 1 coil.
A; = 40 pf and 10 mH  ,  f = 1 / 2 pi ( sq rt LC )
    f = 251646.06 hz
    Xc = 15811.388 ohm = XL

B; = 3.2 nf and 10 mH
    f = 28134.884 hz
    Xc = 1767.7669 ohm = XL

Af / Bf = 8.9442719
AX / BX = 8.9442719
square root of 80 = 8.9442719                                       ( sq rt 30750 =175.35678 )

Usually the ratio doesnt go over 40 but can still be applied no matter what the number is.
But it just reinforces the HUMUNGUS ratio figure that should be 80 in a perfect world,  IT deserves attention..
Im using other peoples measurements that are beyond my control so that its ALL about numbers ONLY and NOT a personal theory.

[Torana]

  Water            Air                Ratio
80       /         1        =     80 : 1
130 uf   /   .000025     =  5200000 : 1       Actual  test
200 nf   /   .010          =   20000 : 1          "          "
29.93uf  /  .001485      =   20154 : 1          "          "

** e = Cs / Cv  .     Cs = sample    Cv = vacuum  .  Water being the sample specimen.

Theres nothing to panic about for anyone testing their cap / cell , BUT it is clear indication that theres more to it than just 2 SS plates slapped together in water , which is a Debye molecule , polar dm.

A cap dielectric sets up an opposed field 180 degrees to the external field that cancels the field.
good example is hyperphysics .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dielec.html

-" Electric flux does not pass equally well through all materials, it cannot pass through conductive metals at all , and is cancelled to various degrees by insulating ( dielectric ) media "
..theres still the debate whether Hydrogen is classed as a metal .  (diff story )

A faraday cage is a polarized hollow conductor with zero internal e.f , but so is a solid wire .
Im still on the hunt for rain water constant and tap water , chlorinated water close enough but keep searching.

http://asiinstr.com/asiadmin/ForceDownload.asp?varFileName=Dialectric Constants.htm&varFileType=DATASHEET

http://orioninstruments.com/html/tools/dielectric.aspx

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/dielectric-constants-strengths.htm

Anyone testing Ice will find R readings too, theres permittivity figures from 1.7 - 115 depending on test freq , Ghz.

If a model was used to represent the water cap it would have parallel C to the max, obviously many times larger than calculated capacitance , and low parallel insulation R .
R being the reciprocal of  conductance G .
The model of a crystal = ESR ,ESL ,C and parallel C
The model of a cap = ESR ,ESL ,C and parallel iR
Sandias water switch model has parallel Cw ,Rw .