@All,
I have been posting a few short videos on what I am working on.
It's something Alan (AB Hammer)has tried to stop with his personal attacks.
And yes, Stefan will ban me. He is Alan's friend.
On youtube, I am using the name Bessler2011. The idea behind the build goes
beyond what the so called credible people can discuss. It's a thrreat to them.
Any more, I believe most in besslerwheel.com do not support Bessler having
actually built a wheel. Otherwise they would not discredit about the only person left
building. The experts at besslerwheel don't build, they say that they can't discuss the
work they're doing on Bessler. On;ly one reason, they're not doing anything.
It's called smoke and mirrors and works great in these forums.
Jim
@All,
I'm going to slow down on build a little bit, do it a little more saner.
There is a lot to it.
One important reason why is there is only one chance at a first impression.
And to me, I would say it would be a disgrace to build something just to
prove a point. And that would be wrong.
I have put much work into this concept. The money is actually the least of it.
It does take a lot of time and effort to refine a concept and get it to work.
What I do like best of all is the many things associated with Bessler that I can
relate to this build. And since it is something quite special, it should recieve the
same treatment and respect. It is a unique part of history and should be respected
as such. Anything less, sorry, I won't go there.
By the way, I have every confidence this will work.
Jim
edied to add; when Bessler mentioned "if you make 3 stones fly as 1", he was most likely referencing a leverage ratio. As for using stones, most likely the weights he used were stones. It is believed that the people who built Stone Henge used stones to roll the massive stones to their present locations by using wooden tracts to roll them on. Stones have been found that are so precise they are the equivalent of modern ball bearings.
If they could do that, there is no reason why Bessler could not as metal was a luxury in his time. Possibly the only metal he used was the iron for the axles he used.
And with a ratio of 3 to 1 or more, pumping water is a simple thing. After all, anyone who built windmills would have also built water mills or at least have been aware of them.
And to use another principle, vacuum, the effeiciency only increases. Something any engineer would know.
What does need to be considered is how he viewed things and the way we consider them today.
@All,
Here is the concept in a nutshell.
Point A is where the short lever pivots on the long lever.
The long lever pivots at point B. Together, they create a
scissor type motion. The 2 arms that go from the short lever
to the boards (bellows) close the top of one and the bottom
of the other. This does two things. First, it acts as a pump.
The second is it creates a seal. This keeps the water pumping
in one direction maintaining a constant over balance.
This happens because the weight on the lever has much
more force than the water has mass. As a result, as the wheel
rotates, levers keep falling causing the water to be continuously
pumped.
And of course, finding the right balance between the mass of the water
and the force with which it is pumped will allow for a smooth running
wheel.
Jim
@All,
I'll probably end up taking my time with this.
I have thought about buying a router that is about 1/4 h.p. next
payday. Still, am working in my home and want to keep it clean.
I've been using a rotary tool and it's a bit over whelmed by cutting 1/2 inch thick
wood. As it is, I'll need to trim the inner and outer part of the rim.
Then there's tooling to be used for trimming parts and for warping levers and parts.
And with the better tool, it'd be a lot easier. But do have more time than money so I'll have to see how things go.
Jim
@All,
This is where I'm at. I have trimmed 8 pieces so far.
I'll probably make a jig so I can trim them a little better.
I am hoping to have a precise 1 1/2 inch gap between the thickest part of two mating pieces.
This will where the spokes and supports for the mechanics will be located. it is nice having gotten this far.
One reason why I want the parts trimmed evenly is the spokes and supports will help keep the rims rigid. The warped boards will also help.
All of this will allow the wheel to be stronger while weighing as little as possible.
Jim
eited to add; I'm using a rotary tool. If I had a shop and a router, I would be doing things a little bit different and probably a lot easier.
@All,
Thought I'd let you guys see the tool I made for trimming parts.
I'm thinking the rims (outer wheel) might be the hardest part to build.
Jim
have a nice weekend all :-)
The build process I am using.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG5OO3XYtCA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG5OO3XYtCA)
Jim
@All,
Will start building a demonstration model to show the mechanics I believe Bessler used in his working wheel.
It will pump water up a 45 degree incline, then straight upwards.
And if all goes well, will show how a pump can create it's own seal to prevent back flow.
Since it will be a basic demonstration, if it pumps enough water to equal the weights on the levers, I will be happy. Hope to have it completed by next weekend.
In the picture linked, Bessler shows 2 different things in this drawing. The line going out the window (to the right) is his hoist. The mashers on the right (number 6) are mashers used for milling corn and wheat. Theprinciple the mashers used will be used in my demonstration model. The way I will be using them will look different than what is pictured.
In the drawing, they are being lifted at different times. The way I will be using them is by having a lever across the top. This will cause 2 mashers to move downward at the same time. I believe this is why Bessler shows them in his drawing.
By the way, I managed to send a few pm's to John Collins in which we discussed why Bessler used the name Orffyreus. I told him it is because of the Lyre of Orpheus. He told me that Bessler was asked about this and denied trying to be like Orpheus.
I told him Bessler was right in saying that. He would have been like Hermes who invented the Lyre. And for his wheel ? It might be he believed the only way someone could make it "sing" is to impress a woman. That is why Orpheus made the lyre sing.
Jim
http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/drawing_numbers.html (http://www.theorffyreuscode.com/html/drawing_numbers.html)
edited to correct spelling.
@All,
I am going to build a very basic (what I believe to be) Bessler wheel.
What most if not all will find boring is the build process itself.
I think an actual model will best demonstrate how everything works together.
After all, it is a new idea to everyone except for Bessler and myself.
The build ideas I will be showing will be for a router ($60) and a drill as about
the only 2 tools needed to easily build one.
Since I don't have a place to use a router, I will be using a rotary tool. The
fixtures used to make parts will be similar. And for those who are math phobic,
only a tape measure if that will be needed. Of course, with pen and paper and the
Pythagorean theorem, it might be easier yet.
The model I will be building is not meant to work.
Jim
You better check on Christo!
Garry
Quote from: garrypm on December 05, 2011, 05:24:10 PM
You better check on Christo!
Garry
Hi Garry,
I have read what he has to say :-)
I'm not sure if he's ever posted details. Myself, I have tried finding someone to work with on this.
I have tried finding a place to build, but have always come up empty. I have openly posted the concept.
In Besslerwheel, Trevor thought it could work but it was considered fraud without a reason being given.
Hydraulic theory is pretty much a no brainer. Myself, I believe Bessler built 2 wheels. One quote of his is
him telling someone that the other wheel sounds different because it uses a different principle.
Chances are one has a fluid motion (actual quote) while the other uses a pendulum in some fashion (ie. weights get their force from swinging, another quote).
Enough of his drawings suggest pumping. And in hydraulics, if you make 3 stones fly as one and then go lightly suggests
that someone could use stones for weights. With fluid, a 1 to 1 ratio might barely work. An incline of 45 degrees has a rise of 70.7% of it's length. A force of 1 to 1 would be capable of meeting the demands of such a static head. The ratio would be based on the hypotenuse which is longer than it's sine or cosine, which ever you consider the vertical lift to be. Metal was also very expensive in 1700. Early settlers in America burned down their homes to salvage the nails when moving. Nails were that valuable. This would help to explain his reference to stones. Possibly what he used for weights.
As hydraulics go, it is a simple principle. A tube between 2 boards will empty itself when one board is pressed against the other. And if the water is 1 kg., then a 1 kg. weight at the end of a lever slightly longer than the tube being emptied will pump the water. Of course, oil can also be used. Lubricant you know, self lubricating mass :-)
This means that a lever twice as long as the tube being epmtied will have twice the force as the fluid has mass. This would help to balance the pumping of the water with it's own rotation. A smoothly rotating wheel could be considered to have a fluid motion, word play on what might be the cause of it's over balance.
And of course, a wheel is round. And if the weight on the lever lands on a board so the mechanics of the pump won't become damaged, then it will land on a warped board. And to prevent the mechanics of the pump from being broken when the weight on the lever falls towards the center of the wheel, it would need to be tethered. All pretty basic if you ask me.
After all, how many people do you know who got soaking wet when a car drove through standing water ? Only because the water got pumped :-)
And what I like about the design is once a weighted lever pumps the water out of it's section, it creates a seal preventing a backwash when the next pump works.
Myself, would have preferred going to school and getting a degree in electronics. But in my family, this type of engineering is difficult to escape.
Jim
@All,
This is a pic of the board warping fixture I've been working on.
Since it will take time to warp all the boards I'll need, I thought I would start with that.
It's close to what I want but not quite good enough. It's just that I want to build a wheel
that is done right.
Jim
@All,
I'm still looking at the end of the month to restart this build. I will be buying a roto-zip which is should be able to do a recent job of routing.
Have realized that cf will help the efficiency of this design. It's just a plus as everything has been calculated on the low side of things.
One of the reasons I have had the opportunity to pursue this is because of the problems I have been caused over the years because of my hearing loss. It has given me more time to study math and motion relative to this type of behavior. I think this gives me a distinct advantage and one I wish I never had.
Unfortunately, people don't like to find out that someone doesn't have the learning disabiity they believe they have. It does make things awkward for other people. After all, if not for my hearing loss, would've had a family a long time ago and this at no time will compensate for that. Just letting ya'all know why I've invested the time and money into this build. The engineering I believe is sound and will be something that might help me to speak out against discrimination of people like myself who have a hearing loss and should have the right to pursue our own lives.
Jim
I am going to do a full scale drawing of the build I will be pursuing.
The last time I did this, I found things that needed to be changed.
I expect the same thing will happen this time. I will also go into
more detail from bolts to glueing that will need to be done.
Since I have to buy new tools to work with, I'll have the time to do
a decent blueprint to work from. I also have found out that when
building that a blueprint makes a good outline but changes will be made
due to construction techniques/materials, etc.
@All,
This week, I will get my first full paycheck in 3 or 4 months. The best part is I am
probably past the worst part of my medical problems.
I may just limit myself to what I can do with a rotary tool. I've watched Norm Abrams
and Tommy McDonald on New Yankee Workshop and Rough Cut. And one thing
they will do is use a saw to rough out something. After that, they'll finish it with a router.
With me, I do have to be concerned with how much noise I make as I have neighbors.
And since I am using my computer desk as a workbench, I should probably stick to
what I am familiar with.
Jim
edited to delete edit
@All,
With Bessler's working wheel, there is math that supports it's potential to work.
The expression is 1m a/ 8ma-a=x
1ma/8m = x
x = .125ma .125ma is the potential of the wheel to accelerate because of gravity's effect on it.
This is a basic thought. m is a variable which can be any weight. An example is m could be 1kg. Then 1m would be 1kg and 2m would be 2kg, etc. And with a-a, it is because gravity acts equally on both sides of the wheel.
As with any machine, there is always room for improvement. It might be possible once the design is better understood to increase the 1m to a higher value such as 2 or 3 m.
edited to add; to consider what it would take to rotate a wheel at 60rpm like Bessler did, the velocity of the outside edge of the wheel would need to be considered.
Since gravity accelerates at 9.8m/s/s, it would need to be considered the maximum circumfrence would be 9.8m.
By dividing 9.8/Pi = 3.12 meters in diameter or about 7.8 feet. Smaller than some of the wheels Bessler demonstrated. Of course, the smaller the wheel, the quicker it can rotate.
But with a wheel that would perform work, size would matter. This is because the over balance weight would be equal to the work it could perform. An example of this is if the wheel used 8 weights that were 3kg, then the over balance weight could be 10kg. By undrestanding that the 10kg weight would be on the outside periphery of the wheel, it would be factored as torque. And then by understanding the axle is an output shaft, you could then consider that as bhp or brake horse power and would know how much work the engine (wheel) could perform.
Then it would be as simple as automotive mechanics ;)
And to think Bessler wanted to start a school for this, lmao !
The attached pic is another full scale drawing I have started. It's boring and seems redundant.
After all, I have done it before. What happened is I found out that some parts would interfere with the mechanics.
With something like this, when I want to better detail or even make a drawing that is more legible, then I can get
a 24x24 board that I can tape paper to. It's a make shift way to do engineered drawings, but don't have a computer
that works. Of cxourse, doing it this way, if i want, I can make parts and compare them to the design.
This can be done with a computer and a printer but I guess taking the time to think about everything I am doing
allows me to understand it in a way that computer generation doesn't allow for.
Could take into summer to have a finished (working) wheel. Of course, to test certain hypothesis, it does take a working
prototype. Then a mass/force to weight ratio, ratio's of the lever to force, etc. could become better known.
I wonder if this is what Bessler felt like. You know, to understand what can be realized in mechanics.
Something all the experts at besslerwheel have missed. That none of Bessler's drawings
show warped boards. Probably because it would allow any ignorant fool to build his wheel.
Actually, it just kept it secret longer. If warped boards were added to Mt 20, then you would
have Bessler's cross section. Then the long lever would be using the short lever to work the
pump. After all, ever consider how much it rotates for no reason ? An example of the potential
it has to perform work. And contrary to what the loudmouths at besslerwheel think, this is
worth doing right if it is to be accomplished. Otherwise, junk is just that, junk.
@all, since I don't have the means to do a proper build myself, I will have someone build it for me.
I think the reduction in stress will be worth it. Of course, this means I will need to do a very detailed
drawing that any skilled craftsman could work from.
I might do some of the details such as pouring my own weights. I've poured babbitt before. Of course,
for this, I might buy some weights that won't take away from the quality of work of the wheel ;)
Quote from: garrypm on December 05, 2011, 05:24:10 PM
You better check on Christo!
Garry
I see the concept but you will have to build bladders or bellows in order to suck the water uphill as it were. Another thing I have encountered in a similar attempt of mine (using water and weights) is the realization that a water column is very resistant to moving uphill .Read Wagner's second critique . (http://www.overunity.com/I%20see%20the%20concept%20but%20you%20will%20have%20to%20build%20bladders%20or%20bellows%20in%20order%20to%20suck%20the%20water%20uphill%20as%20it%20were.%20Another%20thing%20I%20have%20encountered%20in%20a%20similar%20attempt%20of%20mine%20%28using%20water%20and%20weights%29%20is%20the%20realization%20that%20a%20water%20column%20is%20very%20resistant%20to%20moving%20uphill%20.Read%20Wagner%27s%20second%20critique%20.%EF%BB%BF)
Quote from: christo4_99 on January 24, 2012, 12:35:29 PM
I see the concept but you will have to build bladders or bellows in order to suck the water uphill as it were. Another thing I have encountered in a similar attempt of mine (using water and weights) is the realization that a water column is very resistant to moving uphill .Read Wagner's second critique . (http://www.overunity.com/I%20see%20the%20concept%20but%20you%20will%20have%20to%20build%20bladders%20or%20bellows%20in%20order%20to%20suck%20the%20water%20uphill%20as%20it%20were.%20Another%20thing%20I%20have%20encountered%20in%20a%20similar%20attempt%20of%20mine%20%28using%20water%20and%20weights%29%20is%20the%20realization%20that%20a%20water%20column%20is%20very%20resistant%20to%20moving%20uphill%20.Read%20Wagner%27s%20second%20critique%20.%EF%BB%BF)
christo,
Couldn't follow your link. But yes, I do believe water would be difficult to work with.
I have found out that the adhesion and cohesion of water aremore of a problem than
a person would think. What people have failed to consider is what Bessler had available to him. Oil. It's viscous and self lubricating. Water is a coolant but has no lubricating properties.
If he used suede like I think he might have, oil would have been his best option.
It would also help to keep the suede airtight. Airtight and water tight are the same thing.
Jim
Here's a clue for you from AP translated from German with googletranslate :" Namely, a work of art must drift along but also many pieces of lead; There are now two and two ; If a thing outward the body,with the goal,the other to the shaft ; This is now here , and that there : and so moves on and on."
Without going into the details of my design just let me say here that human beings in general tend to complicate things . Bessler's clues , when read with a certain understanding and a certain approach and a specific design in mind suddenly become exceedingly clear and meaningful . That is my perspective and I will not apologize for having this view as it was difficult to arrive here . In any quest there are certain milestones which serve to inform the traveler whether or not they have strayed or not from the true path .
johnny874,
Wouldn't it be wonderful to know beyond a reasonable doubt what specifically it was that Bessler committed to in his design ?
Quote from: christo4_99 on January 25, 2012, 12:10:45 PM
Here's a clue for you from AP translated from German with googletranslate :" Namely, a work of art must drift along but also many pieces of lead; There are now two and two ; If a thing outward the body,with the goal,the other to the shaft ; This is now here , and that there : and so moves on and on."
Without going into the details of my design just let me say here that human beings in general tend to complicate things . Bessler's clues , when read with a certain understanding and a certain approach and a specific design in mind suddenly become exceedingly clear and meaningful . That is my perspective and I will not apologize for having this view as it was difficult to arrive here . In any quest there are certain milestones which serve to inform the traveler whether or not they have strayed or not from the true path .
johnny874,
Wouldn't it be wonderful to know beyond a reasonable doubt what specifically it was that Bessler committed to in his design ?
>> Wouldn't it be wonderful to know beyond a reasonable doubt what specifically it was that Bessler committed to in his design ? <<
I think it would be. It would let everyone one know for sure the different wheels he built.
Unfortunately, I doubt this will ever happen. People regardless of what is demonstrated will always consider other possibilities. Needless to say, even with working wheels, his "mystery" will continue to live on.
And that is okay with me.
Quote from: christo4_99 on January 25, 2012, 12:10:45 PM
Here's a clue for you from AP translated from German with googletranslate :" Namely, a work of art must drift along but also many pieces of lead; There are now two and two ; If a thing outward the body,with the goal,the other to the shaft ; This is now here , and that there : and so moves on and on."
Without going into the details of my design just let me say here that human beings in general tend to complicate things . Bessler's clues , when read with a certain understanding and a certain approach and a specific design in mind suddenly become exceedingly clear and meaningful . That is my perspective and I will not apologize for having this view as it was difficult to arrive here . In any quest there are certain milestones which serve to inform the traveler whether or not they have strayed or not from the true path .
johnny874,
Wouldn't it be wonderful to know beyond a reasonable doubt what specifically it was that Bessler committed to in his design ?
@Christo,
Thank You.
I think what Bessler was describing was Mt 24. I am quite certain of it.
What I am pursuing is a variation of it. By varying the design, it will
hopefully make for an easier first build. I will be incorporating what I
consider the "There are now two and two" into my build. It will require
the use of 16 pieces of lead around the outside of the wheel.
Jim
@All,
Have found a place to work. It'll take me a little time to
get everything set up. It will be very nice being able to
use a normal router and drill press. It will make building
tooling and jigs that much easier. And the detail work ?
That should go much better as well.
It will be a 10x10 work area. That will give me plenty of
room to have a couple of work benches and room left
over for assembling and testing wheels and builds.
Next Saturday is the "move in" date. This will give me a little
time to work out the costs of building those work benches.
Never thought I would or could get excited about something
like that.
Not sure if ya'all interested in a shop set up so will probably
wait until I have something built to post about.
Jim
Thought I'd make this thought on Bessler known.
Believe he called his wheel Orffyreus partially because of the Lyre of Orpheus.
But instead of it being about a woman, he wanted someone to make it "sing"
to demonstrate his belief in Jesus. Could be something about believing as he did have his critics.
@All,
Rented a work space today. Since the 10x10's did not have electricity, they put me in a 10x15 unit.
And with April and nicer weather coming soon, I can look forward to equipping my "little" shop.
It is about a 30 mile drive from where I live but I think it is something that will work just fine.
Jim
@All,
This is the start of the shop I am setting up. Not sure how interesting anyone will find this, but that's okay.
In the next month or 2, I am going to build a 4x5 foot work bench and buy some more tools. After working as a machinist for a number of years, this might be something I'll get a lot of enjoyment out of.
And for those who think about building, hard to say if it would be worth your time and effort.
What is nice is that now I'll be able to work with better equipment. Rotary tools are nice but for larger scale builds they are over worked.
Jim
edited to add; it's a 10x15 foot work area. I think it will work just fine for my needs ;)
@All,
Have for the most part built a bench top for my old computer desk. I'll probably finish it this coming weekend.
Need to add a couple of stiffeners. Considering that I'll be routing a 20 inch radius, do need something solid and flat.
Then I'll be able to get to building jigs and making parts. Will take time but something that will be more interesting that doing the prep work. I am hoping to be able to use my plunger router as a drill. If not, then later on I can by a drill press. Do have my rotary tool drill stand and if I only need 1/4 inch or smaller, then I can by a new rotary tool.
We'll see.
Jim
@All,
This is a pic of my new work bench. While it might not be much to look at, I love it.
Now I can start thinking about making parts, etc. Because of the way I'll be going about things,
I'll probably use my fixture to make another wheel for the fun of it. Just not sure what way
will work best so will be trying a couple of different ways. Also, working on a budget so want
to make the most of everything I'm working with.
The Final Four is this weekend so will probably wait until next week to get back at it.
Jim
Quote from: webby1 on March 22, 2012, 12:59:26 AM
Hi Jim,
Call me what ever you want, that is fine, "BUT" , in your quest please see that Bessler did not pump the water up to the top, not ever, it does not work that way, BTDT
Too much wine and tooo many thoughts and experiments.
If you like, use my email not this group. I do not like the drop outs in server values.
Webby1,
When I get enough built, I'll show it to you. Then maybe you'll understand better what I'm thinking.
I'll pm you when I get that far. I'll probably start building this week. It's what I've been waiting for. But with so many private builders around, would rather keep my specific build techniques private.
Jim
@All,
Have started on a board warping fixture. Will be starting over though.
There will be some trial and error in making the tooling I'll need for this build.
Weather permitting, I'll be taking care of my car tomorrow so I can have
that taken care. I'm not sure if I can get the build done and hopefully working
before June 6th. It would be nice but also wish to do a quality build.
Jim