Hi all,
i was wondering if somebody has experiemnted with horizontal plates. At my exepriements with vertical plates I watched that the bubbles seem to be only coming from the edges never from inside a plate and I was wondering how horizontal plates would provide. I made two pieces of SS screen like a Z one part about 1 inch bigger as the next one with a smaler contact strip of 1 inch lenght then bend it like a Z feed it in to each other with a 1/16 inch distance and the next about 1 inch distance what means it is like a seriel of 2 cells. with a 12 V batterie it pulls around 12 A and it seems as the whole screen gives up now bubbles what I never have seen in the vertical plates. by a conductivity of 3.73mS/cm It inflates a ballon or a pressure of 1psi within 5 seconde where with the vertical plates it takes min 25 to 40 seconds to get the same this is about 5 to 8 times shorter with the horizontal . the next is comparisson of the used area the vertical plate version uses 36 sq inches each plate and the horizontal evrsion has only 13 sq inches what is only about 33%. If I compare now both versions then I have to say that the horizontal version gives about three to five times more output then the vertical plates. If I watch both cells then the vertical plates bubble like champagner and the horizontal plates looks like a thick mist.
Maybe this is something for other to try.
greetings
walt
Any chance of a photo as this might be worth experimenting on. I have looked at using a horizontal stainless steel mesh..but never got around to it . Might do so Now.
Also are you plusing the current or is it direct draw of the battery.
Kind Regards
Mark
Walter,
do your vertical plates draw as much power as the horizontal plates?
Bravo on the mesh! Bubbles tend to stick to solid plates due to surface tension. The reason edges and meshes work great is because there is nothing for the bubbles to stick to, so they float away and let the next bubble be made! With your horizontal method you have more vertical surface area exposed which allows for more volume...
Quote from: tbird on July 02, 2006, 07:13:32 PM
Walter,
do your vertical plates draw as much power as the horizontal plates?
they actually draw more instead of 10A vertical they draw around 12 to 15 A and stay cooler.
greetings
walt
Quote from: mark australia on July 02, 2006, 04:42:55 PM
Any chance of a photo as this might be worth experimenting on. I have looked at using a horizontal stainless steel mesh..but never got around to it . Might do so Now.
Also are you plusing the current or is it direct draw of the battery.
Kind Regards
Mark
hi mark,
yes as soon as I have put it back to action I will make some picture. What I did find with mesh in vertical was that the bubbles was only coming from the edge ends never from the middle and as they try to rise they seem to be catched back to the center. Esspecially with solid plate versions you can see that the most come from the bottom edges never out of the middle.my intend actually was to give the bubbles a free way to rise, but instead surprisingly I expierenced that the wole mesh grid releases bubbles now which looks like a realy thick mist. The two cell plates are on top of each other and in series and the top two plates are a bit smaler then the previous what means it looks like a little pyramid from the side, what would give the bubbles a free way if they only come from the edges ,to rise. The top plate ( negative) from the bottom cell is directly connected to the bottom plate of the top cell, with a distance of around 1 inch what makes the two cells in series. I will try to make a new cell with ether three or maby four such assambles to see if the output gets higher.
No I am not so far to pulse the current, need to put the elctronic together.
greetings
walt
Hi Walter !
I recently made movie with 25 ss plates 4.5V and drawn 33Amps, vertical assembly.
(Harti said he will compress movie and post it but suppose he didn't had time).
Allso noticed that looks like bubbles are formed only at the top of the vertical cell.
What are the numbers voltage and amperes with mesh type and reacting surface ?
From the description I did not quite understand how was horizontal assembly made ?
I made two of such cells, found and made a box, and for now preparing for instalation
in my car as hydrogen-oxygen boost.
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
yes, sorry, I am a bit in a hurry.
Have the video still at home on my harddisk.
Am not currently at home.
Will do this still this week.
Stay tuned.
Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: wizkycho on July 03, 2006, 05:51:57 AM
Hi Walter !
I recently made movie with 25 ss plates 4.5V and drawn 33Amps, vertical assembly.
(Harti said he will compress movie and post it but suppose he didn't had time).
Allso noticed that looks like bubbles are formed only at the top of the vertical cell.
What are the numbers voltage and amperes with mesh type and reacting surface ?
From the description I did not quite understand how was horizontal assembly made ?
I made two of such cells, found and made a box, and for now preparing for instalation
in my car as hydrogen-oxygen boost.
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
I use 12V auto batterie and like I posted it draws around 12 to 13 Amp. the mesh type is 316L 008X008 S0320, what is 8X8 mesh per inches and 0.032 Inch diameter, the total reacting surface of both cells is 13 sq inches, 3x3 inches at the bottom and 2x2 inches the top. My observation was that the bubbles actually forme at the bottom and side edge and then rising to the top where some of it will be catched from the center of the plates what means only about 1/3 finally make it to the top.
the assembly is pretty easy I cut the 3x3 inch left a strip of about 1 inch longer on one side and only 1 inch on the other where the 2x2 inch follos the other was cut pretty much the same way just instead the long strip on the 3x3 it is on the 2x2. then I bend the 1 inch long strip that the center from the 2x2 is about the same location as the 3x3 then the longstrips are bend up. the 3x3 with the long strip ( positive) are at the bottom then the other is the top from the bottom cell and the bottom from the top cell and the 2x2 with the long strip is the top and gos to the negative. the both cells individually are screwed together with a nylon screw in a distance of about 1/16 and the distance to the top cell is about 1 inch.
I will post a picture there is better to see how it is aasembled.
greetings
walt
hi all,
I need to correct my setup description, the plates are not in series I made a mistake it is just that the top plate from the bottom cell is connected to the bottom plate of the top cell but they are actually like paralell, I guess, not sure about this.
The biggest probleme is how to measure the gas output, if somebody can help I would be thankfull.
greetings
walt
Hi Walter,
try to use a small 0.2 Liter plastic coka-cola bottle turned around and filled
with water and measure the time it takes to fill it with oxyhydrogen gas.
Let the gas bubble in there via a hose under water and
see how fast the bottle will be full of gas.
Like this movie:
http://grmhosting.com/img/galleries/videos/hproduction.mpg
But be more cautious than this guy !
He is holding a gas bomb in his hand !
If this would have exploded, he would have probably
lost his hands !
Use only a very small PLASTIC bottle, not more than 0.2 Liter
or less and don?t stand near it, when you do the experiment !
P.S: It would be better, if you "suck" the gas out of the electrolizer
with a small pump, so you will get much more gas out of it in faster time
as the electrolysis is much dependend from gas pressure and
a low atmospherical pressure is good to get more gas out !
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 04, 2006, 07:38:31 AM
Hi Walter,
try to use a small 0.2 Liter plastic coka-cola bottle turned around and filled
with water and measure the time it takes to fill it with oxyhydrogen gas.
Let the gas bubble in there via a hose under water and
see how fast the bottle will be full of gas.
Like this movie:
http://grmhosting.com/img/galleries/videos/hproduction.mpg
But be more cautious than this guy !
He is holding a gas bomb in his hand !
If this would have exploded, he would have probably
lost his hands !
Use only a very small PLASTIC bottle, not more than 0.2 Liter
or less and don?t stand near it, when you do the experiment !
hallo stefan,
thanks for the tip I will try it.
Here is a picture of the horizontal plates how it is build. with the next post I send a realtime video from the cell, I hope I can do this.
greetings
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 04, 2006, 07:41:17 AM
P.S: It would be better, if you "suck" the gas out of the electrolizer
with a small pump, so you will get much more gas out of it in faster time
as the electrolysis is much dependend from gas pressure and
a low atmospherical pressure is good to get more gas out !
hallo stefan,
here is the video from the cell, but the audio has the terrible noise from my A/C system on it and I can not get it off, maybe you can do it or everybody should turn off the audio. this is in real time from start. pretty close to the end there could be seen that the cell still generates gas untill the voltage goes below 1.3V, this was verry interesting to me. The voltage on this setup is straight 12V DC and the current is around 10 A.
greetings
walt
I can not get it done it allways brings a timeout message, I will send it direct to you stefan.
Try using a hexagonal shape mesh construction. Most of all insects use this for construction and lift in fact a multitude of applications. It seems that it is a major design in most of creation.
Interesting that Nano technology has picked up on it.
Hi Walter,
many thanks for the 2 movies. I have converted them now.
Here is the first one, where you show the better output of the right cell
horizontal plate design.
As you said, it is curious, that the horizontal plate design puts out more gas
at almost the same amps and voltage !
Walter wrote me about the upper movie ( you must be logged in to download the movie), that the left horizontal cell works on all the plate surface mostly how a foam
generator as all water has bubles.
The vertical only has bubbles at the edges...
Both cells had the same sea-water ? with some KOH mixed into it.
The left cell with the vertical plates also produces chlor and will get bown colored.
but the right cell with the horizontal plates is totatly odorless and stays transparent ( white bubbles only).
The plates have all the same material and is brandnew.
The surface of the vertical left cell is 168 qcm
and the right horizontal cell has only 60qcm surface.
The supply voltage is 12V and the amps of both cells
is almost the same, although the difference in plate surface !
Yes I suspected that the right side was producing cleaner gas because of the colour. Interesting if you put two or three horizontal plates with a hex shaped appatures I would expect to see at least a three fold increase of gas for the same input power.
Here is the second movie from Walter attached to this message.
It shows, how he tried to capture the gas of the electrolizer and
that the gas pressure was not big enough to fill the ballon...
Maybe there is some leakage ? or there is a threshold, where the gas
will not be able to push and expand the ballon more ?
Quote from: Landor on July 04, 2006, 07:41:27 PM
Yes I suspected that the right side was producing cleaner gas because of the colour. Interesting if you put two or three horizontal plates with a hex shaped appatures I would expect to see at least a three fold increase of gas for the same input power.
What do you mean by:
"horizontal plates with a hex shaped appatures" ?
Can you make a drawing of the plate structure please ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Pretty interesting, that with much smaller surface the horizontal design
draws a bit more current and produces much more gas !
Ok got that yes what is happening is it is all about pressure.
The Gass from the balloon gets to the point where it is creating more pressure than the gass filling as it is not filling the balloon under pressure.
This is where most start to run into problems if they wish to collect and store the gass. You need a good collection system and valves to bve able to fill a bottle with pressurised gass.
I would if this is to be used for say running a car, look to being able to produce the required amount to feed from the aperatus directly into the mixing chamber or carburetta as this would be a lot safer and less problematical also very cost effective.
Imagine chicken wire only smaller appatures. Less materal to feed a current but great area contact with water solution. Hmmm can do a sketch if you don't see what I mean. let me know.
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 04, 2006, 07:42:31 PM
Here is the second movie from Walter attached to this message.
It shows, how he tried to capture the gas of the electrolizer and
that the gas pressure was not big enough to fill the ballon...
Maybe there is some leakage ? or there is a threshold, where the gas
will not be able to push and expand the ballon more ?
Hi stefan,
no actually the pressure is enough I could fill the ballon up to the full extend within 3 to 4 min, I just stopt is for two reason,
1st. the video would then be to big for transfer and 2nd the full ballon would be like a bomb.
the maximum pressure what i have reached was around 3 psi on a gauge.
My intend is to feed it directly in to a generator engine to support my electrical usage, because since the hurricanes last year the electrical cost has doubled.
The direct feed needs no high pressure and dont forget it is only one cell what creates this much allready. I plane on putting three cells in paralell which canbe switched induvidually to compensate for high power demand for a few minutes if all my pumps ( well, house waterpressure, septic and pool) together with my A/C system come on at the same time.
greetings
walt
Quote from: Landor on July 04, 2006, 08:03:51 PM
Imagine chicken wire only smaller appatures. Less materal to feed a current but great area contact with water solution. Hmmm can do a sketch if you don't see what I mean. let me know.
Hi landor,
I see what you mean. but there is a limit I try different mesh sizes and the maximum size what still brought enough bubbles was 4x4 bigger then this did create less bubbles, but amazingly the drawn current was even there pretty much the same. The other side is that I bought from surplus a roll from the shown size 8X8,0.032 and the bigger size is pretty expensive what I can not effort.
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 04, 2006, 07:42:31 PM
Here is the second movie from Walter attached to this message.
It shows, how he tried to capture the gas of the electrolizer and
that the gas pressure was not big enough to fill the ballon...
Maybe there is some leakage ? or there is a threshold, where the gas
will not be able to push and expand the ballon more ?
like explained before I stopt before it gets a bomb
walt
Quote from: Landor on July 04, 2006, 07:41:27 PM
Yes I suspected that the right side was producing cleaner gas because of the colour. Interesting if you put two or three horizontal plates with a hex shaped appatures I would expect to see at least a three fold increase of gas for the same input power.
Hi landor,
like you can see on the picture what I have posted yesterday the hole setup are 3 plates but circular with a like pyramid shape, because my intend as I try this was under the assumption that the bubbles come mostly just from the edges which was somehow partially blocked from the plates to rise to the surface, and if I use a pyramidal shape the bubbles from each plate could rise to the surfae without going throu another surface. My other point is that I wana fit all of the cells in filter housing what has a diameter of just 3 inches what limit the diameter of the plates.
I was really amazed as the whole plates started bubbeling like a explosion and stand this way.
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 04, 2006, 07:36:53 PM
Walter wrote me about the upper movie ( you must be logged in to download the movie), that the left horizontal cell works on all the plate surface mostly how a foam
generator as all water has bubles.
The vertical only has bubbles at the edges...
Both cells had the same sea-water ? with some KOH mixed into it.
The left cell with the vertical plates also produces chlor and will get bown colored.
but the right cell with the horizontal plates is totatly odorless and stays transparent ( white bubbles only).
The plates have all the same material and is brandnew.
The surface of the vertical left cell is 168 qcm
and the right horizontal cell has only 60qcm surface.
The supply voltage is 12V and the amps of both cells
is almost the same, although the difference in plate surface !
Hi all
thats what I dont really understand how only the change from vertical to horizontal can change the whole water. It was allways my probleme that with the vertical version the water turned brown or black greenish what messed up the cell after a while.Some one has a Idea?
greetings
walt
Quote
like explained before I stopt before it gets a bomb
walt
I see, it is funny, that you are still smoking , when doing these experiments ! ;)
Better watchout and don?t get too near the ballon with your cigarette !
;) Booom ! ;)
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on July 05, 2006, 06:05:54 AM
Hi all
thats what I dont really understand how only the change from vertical to horizontal can change the whole water. It was allways my probleme that with the vertical version the water turned brown or black greenish what messed up the cell after a while.Some one has a Idea?
greetings
walt
Hmm, why the water does not turn brown with the horizontal
version I also don?t understand.
Walter is all the water in both cells seawater with some KOH added ?
Or was it destilled water ?
Maybe you can still install a sucking pump on the gas output, so
you always have a lower pressure inside the electrolyzer box.
This will probably double or tripple your gas output at the same
input power level !
Also mix the gas output with enough air behind the bubler or inside
the bubbler with an aquarium pump, that also goes into the bubbler,
then you don?t have so much explosive gas, but it will
burn also better in the IC engine, cause it is there again
compressed in the cylinders.
Also via the mixing with enough air you will get much more
gas all in all. This should then be enough to run your engine.
I made one of those 4" x 8" PVC hydrogen generators. I had ran it but forgot to purge it. The ? nipple on top was open and a spark from the grinder flew past it? HOLY BOOM, good thing I didn?t glue the joints.
Camster
@Camster
feed enough air into the bubbler via an additional aquarium pump
and the gas will not be explosive anymore.
This is also better for the IC engine cylinders, as the
gas is again compressed in them and then it does
not "ring" anymore when the cylinders turn !
The normal oxyhydrogen gas is much too explosive
to feed it directly to the engine !
With mixing with air you also need less oxyhydrogen gas
from the electrolyzer.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi hartiberlin and the rest-
I like the idea of adding some air, reminds me of that New Zealand guy(forget his name just now) from years ago who came up with a similar system where he bubbled air through a series of electrolysers.
However... some guys who have done extensive experimenting running hydroxy through small 4 stroke ICEs say that the hydroxy gas is at a perfect burn ratio already at 2:1. They go on to say that in fact that they had to completely close off any additional air intake or else the engine wouldn not run at all !
So what do you think? Is there a difference if it's first bubbled through the electrolyser in comparison to the normal additonal air intake at the carborator? of course the air would now include some water vapor but wonder what other features it might have?
Then once the engine is running you could recycle the exhaust back through the bubbler again to recapture the water if you wanted too and then you wouldn't need an air pump at all would you? after all the exhaust would be very clean
PS - good work Walter - look forward to hearing more. Now we need the amps/gas volumes if you could-thanks!
If you are not already, I would suggest that the gas be fed to the carb through a metal or aluminum screen. If there is a flash back or back fire, the fine mesh screen will help to conduct away the heat and lower the temperature below the burn point. The screen will still allow the gas to pass through, while the screen may offer some protection from back fire.
Hope this helps.
Liberty
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 05, 2006, 08:11:24 AM
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on July 05, 2006, 06:05:54 AM
Hi all
thats what I dont really understand how only the change from vertical to horizontal can change the whole water. It was allways my probleme that with the vertical version the water turned brown or black greenish what messed up the cell after a while.Some one has a Idea?
greetings
walt
Hmm, why the water does not turn brown with the horizontal
version I also don?t understand.
Walter is all the water in both cells seawater with some KOH added ?
Or was it destilled water ?
Maybe you can still install a sucking pump on the gas output, so
you always have a lower pressure inside the electrolyzer box.
This will probably double or tripple your gas output at the same
input power level !
Also mix the gas output with enough air behind the bubler or inside
the bubbler with an aquarium pump, that also goes into the bubbler,
then you don?t have so much explosive gas, but it will
burn also better in the IC engine, cause it is there again
compressed in the cylinders.
Also via the mixing with enough air you will get much more
gas all in all. This should then be enough to run your engine.
Hi stefan and all,
thats the crazy thing on this, the water is from my well but it does not matter what kind I use it is allways the same result, in this case for demonstration i used my regular tap water from my house. I used 1/2 gallon and added a 1/4 teaspoon of KOH ( 93% pure) mixed it till the KOH was dissolved and pured in both chambers from the sam mixture. the contactivity was 2400 TDS what gives 3.73 mS/cm.
I did a short test with a 500ml plastic bottle like you have recommended stefan and it took 70 sec till the water from the bottle was out, what means the cell generates about 1/2 liter every 1 minute, the pressure on the bubbler was 0,75 psi on the gauge. I dont know right now how much I need to run the generator engine 5 and 12 horse power.
I will try the aquarium pump version and see if this works.
The picture shows the cells 16 hr after shut down and there can be seen on the left side where the vertical cells are the thick brown resedue on the bottom and the brownish water, where on the left side there is pretty much nothing.
I will try to post another short video from a comparisson of both plates in horizontal.
greetings
walt
Quote from: pg46 on July 05, 2006, 01:20:37 PM
Hi hartiberlin and the rest-
I like the idea of adding some air, reminds me of that New Zealand guy(forget his name just now) from years ago who came up with a similar system where he bubbled air through a series of electrolysers.
However... some guys who have done extensive experimenting running hydroxy through small 4 stroke ICEs say that the hydroxy gas is at a perfect burn ratio already at 2:1. They go on to say that in fact that they had to completely close off any additional air intake or else the engine wouldn not run at all !
So what do you think? Is there a difference if it's first bubbled through the electrolyser in comparison to the normal additonal air intake at the carborator? of course the air would now include some water vapor but wonder what other features it might have?
Then once the engine is running you could recycle the exhaust back through the bubbler again to recapture the water if you wanted too and then you wouldn't need an air pump at all would you? after all the exhaust would be very clean
PS - good work Walter - look forward to hearing more. Now we need the amps/gas volumes if you could-thanks!
Hi
like mentioned before the drawn current is around 15 A by 12V and the output ( after the test recommended by stefan) is around 500ml per minute. i am using the bubbler as flash back arrestor till I can buy a commercial version.
with all the other stuff I will wait till I can start a ICE.
What is right is that the air intake on the ICE should be pretty much closed off.
greetings
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 05, 2006, 08:05:30 AM
Quote
like explained before I stopt before it gets a bomb
walt
I see, it is funny, that you are still smoking , when doing these experiments ! ;)
Better watchout and don?t get too near the ballon with your cigarette !
;) Booom ! ;)
Hi stefan,
nice comment, thanks ;D
walt
Hi all,
here are the smal video ( I hope I get it in here) where you can see how the cells react with the rectangular cells also in horizontal first it does not generate a fraction of the bubbles even with the verry big surface area. But what is amazing too is that it seems that this plates now in horizontal start cleaning up the water what is now even more strange and I will examine this more in detail. This time I did shut off the A/C even that I sweaten like hell for the audio.
greetings
walt
Hmm,
Walter, what is the difference now ?
Both cells now have the main plates in horizontal... ?
Difference is in the shape as he now has a round plate instead of a rectangular one.
The transference of charge thakes a totally different path. Much more effective with a disc shape.
I love watching the video ...but the cigarette scared the hell out of me.
Have a look at this one
http://www.icubenetwork.com/files/watercar/non-commercial/dave/videos/Wfcrep.WMV
if my calculations are right this Stanley Myer reproduction is producing the gas (do not know volume so am building one my self) using only 24 watts.
Kind Regards
Mark
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 05, 2006, 06:33:20 PM
Hmm,
Walter, what is the difference now ?
Both cells now have the main plates in horizontal... ?
hi stefan,
what I did wana show was the fifference in output even with the big rectangular as horizontal there is just a fraction of bubbles. What came to me as a total surprise was that it seems that the rectangular in horizontal clean up somehow the messy water.
greetings
walt
Quote from: mark australia on July 05, 2006, 08:51:25 PM
I love watching the video ...but the cigarette scared the hell out of me.
Have a look at this one
http://www.icubenetwork.com/files/watercar/non-commercial/dave/videos/Wfcrep.WMV
if my calculations are right this Stanley Myer reproduction is producing the gas (do not know volume so am building one my self) using only 24 watts.
Kind Regards
Mark
Hi mark,
dont worry the cigarett is only there as long as everythings in the system is closed believe me.
like I posted yesterday, I did the volume test yesterday and the one cell what is still a vertical version puts out about 1/2 liter in 1 minute. I will try to put now the horizontal disc in a filter housing and do the same volume test.
If all this works then I will try on the weekend to fire up a small (3hp) engine to see if it is running and how it performs.
greetings
walt
Hi,
yes the difference is the high outpu of the disc shaped, even that the surface area is only 1/3 what means that with the same housing size much more gass can be produced.
what nobody seems to know is why the horizontal version takes a different path and why it generates more with less and cleaner.
greetings
walt
Hi Walter-
Thanks for posting the video. Hey, maybe you discovered a way of cleaning up filthy water :D
It's interesting that the water should react different in the different setups - that deserves further investigation for sure.
Regarding gas production differences, spacing between electrodes is of course very important and I couldn't tell if your spacing of the plates was the same or not between the two setups?
Keep in mind that using any more than 2 volts doesn't provide any gain in gas production. For electrolysis you need a little less than 1.5 volts to start the process and gas production will increase on up to about 2 volts. After 2 volts you don't gain any in gas production and in fact you will waste a lot of energy and produce heat etc. So in your setup of say 12 volts and 12 amps you have a 144 watt unit (watt = amps x volts). You could have a 2 volt unit @ the same 12 amps and have a 24 watt unit producing the same amount of gas. Using the same amount of power you are now using (about 144 watts) you could run 6 - 2volt units and produce 6 times the amount of fuel than you are now, with the same 144 watts.
1/2 litre of gas/min isn't enough to run your small ICE likely but it would be a nice supplemental fuel to try out for sure and see how the engine reacts to it. You can calculate the fuel required if you know the cc of the engine.
Great fun though this experiment of yours. Its very important to show the value of different electrode design configurations and its effects on electrolysis. Keep us posted!
Best Regards,
Quote from: pg46 on July 06, 2006, 11:46:17 PM
Hi Walter-
Thanks for posting the video. Hey, maybe you discovered a way of cleaning up filthy water :D
It's interesting that the water should react different in the different setups - that deserves further investigation for sure.
Regarding gas production differences, spacing between electrodes is of course very important and I couldn't tell if your spacing of the plates was the same or not between the two setups?
Keep in mind that using any more than 2 volts doesn't provide any gain in gas production. For electrolysis you need a little less than 1.5 volts to start the process and gas production will increase on up to about 2 volts. After 2 volts you don't gain any in gas production and in fact you will waste a lot of energy and produce heat etc. So in your setup of say 12 volts and 12 amps you have a 144 watt unit (watt = amps x volts). You could have a 2 volt unit @ the same 12 amps and have a 24 watt unit producing the same amount of gas. Using the same amount of power you are now using (about 144 watts) you could run 6 - 2volt units and produce 6 times the amount of fuel than you are now, with the same 144 watts.
1/2 litre of gas/min isn't enough to run your small ICE likely but it would be a nice supplemental fuel to try out for sure and see how the engine reacts to it. You can calculate the fuel required if you know the cc of the engine.
Great fun though this experiment of yours. Its very important to show the value of different electrode design configurations and its effects on electrolysis. Keep us posted!
Best Regards,
Yes it is verry inetresting
i will setup a big cell ( an old jacuzy poolfilter housing) and try it with my pool water maybe I can safe all the chlorine and get clear water.
In order to realy can compare I use the same material for all components including the spacer.
I know that I need less voltage but with the intend to compare different setups it is easier with straight 12 V because to put different setups in series it does not work due to the different resistence and reaction. I could see after the cells was disconnected that they stillhold some voltage and generate bubbles way less but they do this till the voltage is below 1.3V.
Yes I know that 1/2liter would probably not be enough but I needed to start somewhere now is not probleme to add 1 or 2 more cells maybe even more.
I dont know if there is a roole of thumb for how much hydrogen per hp is needed to run a ICE not as a race horse because generators running somewhere in the midrange.
But overall I will find out over the weekend what and how it works. I will keep you guys posted.
greetings
walt
Hi all
does anybody know if somebody from the guys who test this cells did the conductivity measure?
Because all depends on the conductivity of the water I do t all the time in order to have comparable data I use a electronic TDS stick which automaticly checks the temperature and correct the TDS ( total dissolved solids) and then use a converter calculator to convert the ppm TDS in to micro siemens pro cm.
I did find out that with everythings the same the real generating process startes only at around 2,000 ppm TDS what is about 2.70mS/cm and the goes upt progressivly upt to 2,700 ppm (4.22 mS/cm).
If somebody has such data please let me know.
greetings
walt
Quote from: pg46 on July 06, 2006, 11:46:17 PM
Hi Walter-
Thanks for posting the video. Hey, maybe you discovered a way of cleaning up filthy water :D
It's interesting that the water should react different in the different setups - that deserves further investigation for sure.
Regarding gas production differences, spacing between electrodes is of course very important and I couldn't tell if your spacing of the plates was the same or not between the two setups?
Keep in mind that using any more than 2 volts doesn't provide any gain in gas production. For electrolysis you need a little less than 1.5 volts to start the process and gas production will increase on up to about 2 volts. After 2 volts you don't gain any in gas production and in fact you will waste a lot of energy and produce heat etc. So in your setup of say 12 volts and 12 amps you have a 144 watt unit (watt = amps x volts). You could have a 2 volt unit @ the same 12 amps and have a 24 watt unit producing the same amount of gas. Using the same amount of power you are now using (about 144 watts) you could run 6 - 2volt units and produce 6 times the amount of fuel than you are now, with the same 144 watts.
1/2 litre of gas/min isn't enough to run your small ICE likely but it would be a nice supplemental fuel to try out for sure and see how the engine reacts to it. You can calculate the fuel required if you know the cc of the engine.
Great fun though this experiment of yours. Its very important to show the value of different electrode design configurations and its effects on electrolysis. Keep us posted!
Best Regards,
I have tried also different electrolyzer setups
and switching between 6 Volts and 12 Volts DC supply
voltage gives indeed much more gas at 12 Volts,
so there is not just the additional heating, but also more
gas at 12 Volts...
Hi hartiberlin-
Yes with the identical cell setup but first using 6 volts and then going with 12 volts you will produce more gas certainly but then its drawing more amps and the cell will get hotter faster too. I was talking about efficiency as (eventually) you will want the max gas produced per amp used. Besides you'll want to avoid "amperage run away" and all of its associated problems - trust me, as I've been there and its not pretty. For an extreme example and for fun, imagine if you will hitting the same little cell with say 200 Volts- heck why not? - I've actually done it too. Boy do you produce gas! but then things are foaming, getting real hot real quick and you are now boiling out your water too producing heaps of steam and foam etc. Well, the thing quickly gets out of hand and you are soon diving for the off switch. Kinda fun though...but a little nasty. Oh...and I have exploded entire cells unintentionally too which again was kinda fun but then kinda nasty too :o My neighbors however were not amused.
Walter -
I have a honda single cylinder 100cc 4 stroke engine. The cylinder will contain 100cc(or 0.1 lt) of gaseous mixture. It will fire every 2nd revolution as its a 4 stroke engine. If I want it to run at say 1000 rpm then I need to fire that gaseous mixture 500 times/min to achieve it. 500 X 0.1 = 50 lts of fuel mix. So I reckon I need 50 lts of combustable fuel/air mix stuff per min to run this honda at 1000 rpm (without a load) I think mine is around a 10 HP motor but not sure.
Maybe some of these figure(if correct) will help you figure out what you'll need for volumes for your engine project.
Also if you calculate what your engine consumes in gasoline then you'll be able to calculate what you'll require in equivelent hydrogen gas energy.
Best Regards,
Hi pg46,
thanks for the tip.
first in regards to 12V verses 2 V I try this version and with the same setup on plates and water it showed that the 12V version brought about 5 times more gas output and the temperature was after one hour rissen to 85 degree F what is actually a normal operating temperature and I mean 5 times more output is something to think about. I personally dont care about amperage efficiency because i use a carbatterie which is charged from the generator during low time. The other point is that a temp of 85 degree makes it easier to generate the gas with other words is a winn winn situation. You are right it needs to be watch not to have a runn a way. this can be avoided with a tempreture sensor whicch shuts off the cell and switches back on. thats why I wana try a three cell parallel setup where the cell can be switched on and off on demand or like temperature.
For this reason it was exiting to see how the horizontal mesh unit performed from the start up creating the bubbles like a explosion and after first tests the temperature was much cooler then with any other version I would say about 20 to 30 degrees cooler.
Now I did a test on the fly with 2 inch diameter carbon disc 2 of them with a 1.5mm distance and I tell you the effect was a total disapointment first there was no bubbles coming from the surface only the edges brought some up and seams to be not a fraction of the mesh unit further the amperage draw was only 1A only after I increased the conductivity to over 4,000 ppm TDS it draw 2 A. I will test this a bit further I also will do a test with a SS sheat disc horizontal version to see how this performs.
Over the weekend I post a couple small vid about this tests.
greetings
walt
Hey Walter-
Yeah sure, go ahead and use your convenient 12 volts, why not? It seems the most practical for the moment.
Looking forward to hearing more about your experiments.
All the best,
Hi all,
here are a video with solid horizontal plates like it shows the bubble output is just a fraction again, but was is amazing that the first time I could exactly define where the bubbles are build and to my surprise it was not build on the top surface , it comes from the undersite of the negative plate.I will also post a few more vid from other comparisson tests.
greetings
walt
Hi all
here is a vid from a test with a graphite disc cell in comparisson to a solid SS disc cell. The output with the graphite is even less then with the solid cell and the bubbles here are only build on the edges.
walt
it does not work to post the vid due to time out I will send it to stefan that he please post it.
walt
hi,
here is a vid from a test with graphite cell vertical, here again shows bubbles coming just from the edges but much more then in horizontal. It appears that the position of the cells dpends on the material used for the disc.
walt
Hi,
here is a vid comparrisson from a cylinder to a solid disc as can be seen the bubbles just coming from the top and side edges of the cylinder.
walt
Hi Walter-
Interesting experiments you have happening there.
In solid plate setups as you've already demonstrated, you'll get more gas action with the plates in verticle configurations simply because the bubbles can be freed from the plate more easily and rise to the surface. When the plates are horizontal its pretty tough for the bubbles to escape.
Regarding your horizontal solid plates and bubbles only forming on one side of underneath the negative plates - well, thats what they are supposed to do in that particular setup. The side with all the bubbles is facing the positive electrode so all of the action is happening there. If you were to hook a bunch of plates in series(-+-+-+ etc) and the spacing was equal between them, you'd find gas production happening on both sides of the plates, (excepting the 2 outside electrodes on either end where there would be gas happening on only one side)
Keep up the good work. :)
Best Regards,
hi pg46,
what I did wana demonstrate is that the previous shown vid with the horizontal mesh version, what is in material and size identical, there is a explosion of bubbles right from the start and it generates way more gass then any solid version.
with the series plates in vertical I have to disagree I'f ben there and the results was far less gass then with the horizontal mesh version. Also the mesh version did not bring up any colored slime like with all the other versions. What matters extremly is the difference in size compared to the gass output where the horizontal mesh version needs only about 33% of the size for more gass output.
In all my experiements I could not find that the bubbles was build on both sides the positive side brought allways just a few bubbles I believe thats the oxigen part what builds there.
All this experiements was done to find out the version with the highest output and I have to say now itis the horizontal mesh version where I wana go with and will put more mesh plates now ( it was just three before) in one cell to see if and how much higher the output would be.
greetings
walt
Hey There Walter-
Your working with the screen for plates idea surely has some merit as design and materials of the plates is very very important.
This fellow over here at the site below has clearly demonstrated this with his experiments-
http://www.stifflerscientific.com/electrodes.html
You may gain some considerable insights from following some of what the fellows over at www.oupower.com are doing as there are some electrolysis cell master builders that contribute to that forum.
I'll send you a pm
All the best,
I think I can explain this promising results that Walter Hoffman showed us.
Why visible bubbles are created only at the top of vertical setup and why the production is smaller
when compared with horizontal setup ?
To produce efficient electrolysis it is a must to make +- plates as close as they can be (still not touching each other) in order to lower down resistance of the whole unit at the first place. Since plates must be very close
and if positioned vertical - invisible small bubbles are created on every point of the reaction surface but bubbles
created at very bottom are free to go from left to right plate (which are very close) and have much chance
for recombination back into water cause they have source of free electrons and positively charged ions. (H2O molecule is much stable than H2 and O2).
If horizontal setup is used bubbles (which can only go up) can only ONCE hit (if even that) electrod of opposed polarity and recombine into water or not.
So the path of releasing gas in horizontal setup is much much shorter and has only one homopolar exit making
recombination into water again rarely occuring.
To make horizontal more efficient (more dense) by design I propose this setup (on pic attached).
(even better if made slightly but only slightly concave - to U shaped)
Water in vertical setup comes dirty because of long path of reaction and bipolar environment cause inpurities in water (minerals and etc.) to make large molecules (visible as green redish slime). Cause of that water at the bottom of vertical cell becomes less ocupied with minerals ions which in return lowers conductivity of water... (when reaction is stoped after some long period of inactiviti of the cell some of this molecules are again melted in water and water gets little clearer.)
In horizontal setup complex large molecules can not be created cause reaction path is short and homopolar leaving water visualy clean and at the same state of conduction which is good property for prolonged work of the device and mesh plates uniformly distributes current through the whole its lenght.
As heating is concerned, folks !
Heating in electrolysis occures much only if the density of the current is high. density of the curent is high
if current is high and diamter or thickness is low. So more material (stainless steel) less heat for same current.
best regards !
Igor Knitel
Let's make it horizontal then. Even with common ss plates (not mesh type) results must be better.
If using common ss plates thin plastic sheet is left out.
Here is another movie from Walter.
Quote from: wizkycho on July 10, 2006, 08:29:51 AM
I think I can explain this promising results that Walter Hoffman showed us.
Why visible bubbles are created only at the top of vertical setup and why the production is smaller
when compared with horizontal setup ?
To produce efficient electrolysis it is a must to make +- plates as close as they can be (still not touching each other) in order to lower down resistance of the whole unit at the first place. Since plates must be very close
and if positioned vertical - invisible small bubbles are created on every point of the reaction surface but bubbles
created at very bottom are free to go from left to right plate (which are very close) and have much chance
for recombination back into water cause they have source of free electrons and positively charged ions. (H2O molecule is much stable than H2 and O2).
If horizontal setup is used bubbles (which can only go up) can only ONCE hit (if even that) electrod of opposed polarity and recombine into water or not.
So the path of releasing gas in horizontal setup is much much shorter and has only one homopolar exit making
recombination into water again rarely occuring.
To make horizontal more efficient (more dense) by design I propose this setup (on pic attached).
(even better if made slightly but only slightly concave - to U shaped)
Water in vertical setup comes dirty because of long path of reaction and bipolar environment cause inpurities in water (minerals and etc.) to make large molecules (visible as green redish slime). Cause of that water at the bottom of vertical cell becomes less ocupied with minerals ions which in return lowers conductivity of water... (when reaction is stoped after some long period of inactiviti of the cell some of this molecules are again melted in water and water gets little clearer.)
In horizontal setup complex large molecules can not be created cause reaction path is short and homopolar leaving water visualy clean and at the same state of conduction which is good property for prolonged work of the device and mesh plates uniformly distributes current through the whole its lenght.
As heating is concerned, folks !
Heating in electrolysis occures much only if the density of the current is high. density of the curent is high
if current is high and diamter or thickness is low. So more material (stainless steel) less heat for same current.
best regards !
Igor Knitel
Let's make it horizontal then. Even with common ss plates (not mesh type) results must be better.
If using common ss plates thin plastic sheet is left out.
Hi igor
thanks for the replie, I try pretty much allversions for a setup with plates and my conclusion is absolutly to go with horizontal setup. The comparisson between solid and mesh plates shows defenetly mesh is the maximum, because like you mentioned above the free way for the bubbles to escape is much bigger.
on your picture for the proposed setup I could not realy follow how you mean this ? do you mean a few cells (each 2 plates + and- ) seperated by a plasticsheet?
I will post another vid later what shows the effect or better no effect if more plates in series are add.
greetings
walt
Hi all
here is a vid about the comparisson between 1 cell and 3 cells inseries like it shows the 3 cells in series seems to bring even less then the 1 cell, and only the top cell produces bubbles and less then the 1 cell unit which is the one on the right.
If someone like to have some of the SS 316L mesh, I can send it for $ 6/ square feet plus postage.
what I now need to find out how many of the disc I can get in a house filter housing.
It also semms to me that that there is a connection between how much water is actually in the cell and the output. I am not sure jet but tests with measuring the output via stefan s methode with the plastic bottle showed that a cell which contains about 0,5liter water fills a 0,5 liter bottle within 60 seconds and a cell with around 1 liter water makes it in 35 seconds, but I have to test this more.
look at the vid and let me know what you think.
greetings
walt
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on July 10, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
Hi igor
thanks for the replie, I try pretty much allversions for a setup with plates and my conclusion is absolutly to go with horizontal setup. The comparisson between solid and mesh plates shows defenetly mesh is the maximum, because like you mentioned above the free way for the bubbles to escape is much bigger.
on your picture for the proposed setup I could not realy follow how you mean this ? do you mean a few cells (each 2 plates + and- ) seperated by a plasticsheet?
I will post another vid later what shows the effect or better no effect if more plates in series are add.
greetings
walt
Plastic sheet is here to prevent created H2 O2 gas to pass through another + - mesh cell which will result in
recombination back to water. In that way also you don't have to make much distance between two +-mesh and another +-mesh combination and don't have to make upper +-mesh smaller and smaller and in piramid (more +-mesh
cells can be stacked in a given space).
Sheet is distanced from upper mesh plate so bubbles are concentrated beneath that sheet in hompolar environment (close only to one electrode) and are released only at the ends of the sheet not emidiately up to another +-mesh cell.
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on July 10, 2006, 05:32:00 PM
Hi all
here is a vid about the comparisson between 1 cell and 3 cells inseries like it shows the 3 cells in series seems to bring even less then the 1 cell, and only the top cell produces bubbles and less then the 1 cell unit which is the one on the right.
If someone like to have some of the SS 316L mesh, I can send it for $ 6/ square feet plus postage.
what I now need to find out how many of the disc I can get in a house filter housing.
It also semms to me that that there is a connection between how much water is actually in the cell and the output. I am not sure jet but tests with measuring the output via stefan s methode with the plastic bottle showed that a cell which contains about 0,5liter water fills a 0,5 liter bottle within 60 seconds and a cell with around 1 liter water makes it in 35 seconds, but I have to test this more.
look at the vid and let me know what you think.
greetings
walt
- In multi +-mesh cell
It is because bubbles in multi +- mesh cell must not pass through another +-mesh cell (bipolar) where they can catch + or - needed to recombine back to water. This is why the plastic sheet should be here (path for bubbles seems longer (in the center) but this path is only unipolar so recombination is not likely to happen.). There might be allso a difference if upper mesh plate is - or upper mesh plate is +.
- And allso with more water Archimed law acts stronger so bubbles faster goes up leaving surface of electrode free for another to create.
Walter:
A couple of lines on what I found during cell research.
1) Measurement of gas is difficult at best. The filling the tube (bottle) method is very inaccurate. Unless you have run the gas through a dryer, you will have significant water vapor. As a cell heats the kinetic energy of the H2O molecules increases and larger amounts of vapor will be present. Using electrolyte will also present some margin of error as some chemical reaction can take place and generate gas other than H2 and O2, albiet small.
2) I found that you want to keep the interaction of the cell ions to a minimum, you don't want then to re-combine and bump into one another as the Enthalpy increases. I was never able in hundreds of hours to get horizontal to produce near vertical.
3) Electrodes that are to close are self defeating, they cause re-combination and heat from the massive number of molecule interactions.
4) Get the gas out of the electrolyte as soon as possible, holding it back by the plastic may allow them to join up and seem like large bubbles, but gas has not increased.
I at last used for production measurement (mass) as an indicator. Weigh starting cell, run gas through dryer, captue and weigh. By subtraction you can get within 10-20%. This will require a scale capable of doing entire cell as removal of the left over water will great a greater error as you can't get it all. To weigh gas will require better scale. I do not suggest you capture a large amount of gas, that is just plain bad for oxyhydrogen.
My work found that this drive to add more plates and more plates is not the way to go. If you are using conventional theory, you are only interested in A/cm2. It seems to a lot of people to get to this point that plates en-mass is the way to go. Electrolyte is part of the answer, yet a cell can be constructed to provide good output and not require large number of plates.
Voltage is critical unless you just don't care about eff%, the thermoneutral voltage is below 1.5V and for 80% eff you will run around 560-580ma/cm2 at around 2.4V.
Keep up the work, it can only get better...
This may or may not help. I did an experiment where I was charging and discharging a capacitor through 2 rods in salt water. What I noticed is that when the cap was charged a pulse of bubbles appeared on one rod and the same when the cap discharged. I was using a SPDT switch and some diodes to keep the flow one way through the water to swap the electrons from a 24 volt source into the cap and then out to a 9 volt destination. I measured amps as the cap charged going through the water and I measured amps charging the 9volt battery. Of course in this setup there are losses due to resistance but I was really moving the energy from the 24 volt battery set up to the 9volt battery that was dead. The rechargeable battery became charged after a time. The one thing I found interesting was the fact that the pulses could be seen on the rod like a shock wave. Perhaps to minimize heating and to help dislodge the bubbles in a hurry this set up might be of some help. As well perhaps moving the elctrons from source to destination may increase efficiency. One other note: 2 rods seem to produce more action than a Stanley cell made of 316 SS.
CamsterÃ, Ã, Ã,Â
Quote from: c0mster on July 12, 2006, 11:36:24 AM
This may or may not help. I did an experiment where I was charging and discharging a capacitor through 2 rods in salt water. What I noticed is that when the cap was charged a pulse of bubbles appeared on one rod and the same when the cap discharged. I was using a SPDT switch and some diodes to keep the flow one way through the water to swap the electrons from a 24 volt source into the cap and then out to a 9 volt destination. I measured amps as the cap charged going through the water and I measured amps charging the 9volt battery. Of course in this setup there are losses due to resistance but I was really moving the energy from the 24 volt battery set up to the 9volt battery that was dead. The rechargeable battery became charged after a time. The one thing I found interesting was the fact that the pulses could be seen on the rod like a shock wave. Perhaps to minimize heating and to help dislodge the bubbles in a hurry this set up might be of some help. As well perhaps moving the elctrons from source to destination may increase efficiency. One other note: 2 rods seem to produce more action than a Stanley cell made of 316 SS.
Camster
Check out www.stifflerscientific.com and look at the CRE, there is also a video on what you describe.
Quote from: joule on July 12, 2006, 11:08:01 AM
Walter:
A couple of lines on what I found during cell research.
1) Measurement of gas is difficult at best. The filling the tube (bottle) method is very inaccurate. Unless you have run the gas through a dryer, you will have significant water vapor. As a cell heats the kinetic energy of the H2O molecules increases and larger amounts of vapor will be present. Using electrolyte will also present some margin of error as some chemical reaction can take place and generate gas other than H2 and O2, albiet small.
2) I found that you want to keep the interaction of the cell ions to a minimum, you don't want then to re-combine and bump into one another as the Enthalpy increases. I was never able in hundreds of hours to get horizontal to produce near vertical.
3) Electrodes that are to close are self defeating, they cause re-combination and heat from the massive number of molecule interactions.
4) Get the gas out of the electrolyte as soon as possible, holding it back by the plastic may allow them to join up and seem like large bubbles, but gas has not increased.
I at last used for production measurement (mass) as an indicator. Weigh starting cell, run gas through dryer, captue and weigh. By subtraction you can get within 10-20%. This will require a scale capable of doing entire cell as removal of the left over water will great a greater error as you can't get it all. To weigh gas will require better scale. I do not suggest you capture a large amount of gas, that is just plain bad for oxyhydrogen.
My work found that this drive to add more plates and more plates is not the way to go. If you are using conventional theory, you are only interested in A/cm2. It seems to a lot of people to get to this point that plates en-mass is the way to go. Electrolyte is part of the answer, yet a cell can be constructed to provide good output and not require large number of plates.
Voltage is critical unless you just don't care about eff%, the thermoneutral voltage is below 1.5V and for 80% eff you will run around 560-580ma/cm2 at around 2.4V.
Keep up the work, it can only get better...
Hi joule,
thanks for the commend, I personally be a hands on guy and over the years I experienced that there allways are many different ways to do things and different points of view. My goal is just bring my generators to work.
From the imense literature , videos what I have consumed I learned that everybody swor that his system is the maximum and after replicate a few It was not what was promissed. The start up to my aproach with the horizontal version was actually exidental as the plates with the heavy wire connection tipt over in the horizontal and what I never have seen before a pretty much explosion of bubbles over the whole surface.The wire mesh was allready what I have experiemented coming from my AGC cell development.
Now what I also found out is that the ebst form stacked cells in horizontal are with disc shaped plates and the stack should be between 1 1/2 to 2 inches distance and with maximale 4 of this which should also be about a 1/2 inch smaler then the previous. More then 4 dont give more.
I hope over the weekend I can start experiementing if I can get my IC engine running, this will proof if and how many cell stacks is needed. like I say I am a hands on guy and proof to me is only if i can get to my goal.
I agree with you that adding more plates are at least for me and I did lots of experiements not the way to go.
greetings
walt
Quote from: c0mster on July 12, 2006, 11:36:24 AM
This may or may not help. I did an experiment where I was charging and discharging a capacitor through 2 rods in salt water. What I noticed is that when the cap was charged a pulse of bubbles appeared on one rod and the same when the cap discharged. I was using a SPDT switch and some diodes to keep the flow one way through the water to swap the electrons from a 24 volt source into the cap and then out to a 9 volt destination. I measured amps as the cap charged going through the water and I measured amps charging the 9volt battery. Of course in this setup there are losses due to resistance but I was really moving the energy from the 24 volt battery set up to the 9volt battery that was dead. The rechargeable battery became charged after a time. The one thing I found interesting was the fact that the pulses could be seen on the rod like a shock wave. Perhaps to minimize heating and to help dislodge the bubbles in a hurry this set up might be of some help. As well perhaps moving the elctrons from source to destination may increase efficiency. One other note: 2 rods seem to produce more action than a Stanley cell made of 316 SS.
Camster
Hi camster,
Yes I agree with you in regards to the capacitor effects I did experience similar facts.
In regards to the electrolysys cells I took the apraoch with a switch to turn on and off the power and there is a similar affect but not ( hey I know some will now say thats like the oscilator version, but it is not) due to the shut off of the power and turn on it gives like I am not sure about this but it looks like the EM results because what is happening is that the rest voltage which remains in the cell for a few seconds holds the cell actually in a state like with the old radio tubes warm -up and after the power is back it gives a high impulse forcing the bubbles out. The time period are not jet determined but it looks like between 1/2 to 1 1/2 seconds on and 1 second off are the most effiecent with the highest output. I will try this in the future with a 555 circuit adjustable powering ehter a relais or a trans.
In regards to the rods I can tell you and I have lots of expierence witth rods that the output is not even comparable because4 due to the vertical location the rods getting saturated and produce over time less and less pretty much the samething is happening with a wire spirale I am talking about straight DC I did not experiementing with high voltage versions lik the bingo gas or so.
Thanks anyway for your input.
greetings walt
Quote from: wizkycho on July 12, 2006, 05:41:27 AM
Quote from: Walter Hofmann on July 10, 2006, 05:32:00 PM
Hi all
here is a vid about the comparisson between 1 cell and 3 cells inseries like it shows the 3 cells in series seems to bring even less then the 1 cell, and only the top cell produces bubbles and less then the 1 cell unit which is the one on the right.
If someone like to have some of the SS 316L mesh, I can send it for $ 6/ square feet plus postage.
what I now need to find out how many of the disc I can get in a house filter housing.
It also semms to me that that there is a connection between how much water is actually in the cell and the output. I am not sure jet but tests with measuring the output via stefan s methode with the plastic bottle showed that a cell which contains about 0,5liter water fills a 0,5 liter bottle within 60 seconds and a cell with around 1 liter water makes it in 35 seconds, but I have to test this more.
look at the vid and let me know what you think.
greetings
walt
- In multi +-mesh cell
It is because bubbles in multi +- mesh cell must not pass through another +-mesh cell (bipolar) where they can catch + or - needed to recombine back to water. This is why the plastic sheet should be here (path for bubbles seems longer (in the center) but this path is only unipolar so recombination is not likely to happen.). There might be allso a difference if upper mesh plate is - or upper mesh plate is +.
- And allso with more water Archimed law acts stronger so bubbles faster goes up leaving surface of electrode free for another to create.
I try this and it does not work like you mentioned what is happening is that the plastic holds back the bubbles and the output is even less then without.
Also the series does not work really in regtards to rise the output the plates horizontal in paralell stacked like a pyramidal form seems to be the max.
greetings
walt
Hi all,
here just a bit info about my weekend experiements.
Attached are a vid about testing for pressure the vid shows with 2 seperate cells each with a three stack of disc horizontal. both cells in series on 12V. the time to build up 5psi is 6 minutes.
I will post a nother vid what shows the next step.
greetings
walt
hi all,
here a the next step, the vid shows a one cell setup where the cell has a stack of 5 horizontal disc it is on 12V and the time to generate a pressure of 5 psi is only 1 min. now.
I also did a test with my 3hp engine and here are the results:
the setup was the 2 cells .
I could not start with the gass alone, also I did two testruns with gasoline to find out how long the engine whould run with gasoline to see if the gas has any effect at all. the engine with about 0.2cc run for 3 minutes. then I put the electrolizer hose direct in to the carburator closed the air intake ( filter) with only a hole of about 1/2 inch and the engine did run for 5min and 10 sec. the engine did run on a higher rpm in the moment as I turn on the elect gass. But overall the 2 cells did not generate enough gass.
The next step will be now to build two of the 5 stack cells and test again.
I'll keep you posted
greetings
walt
Hi Walter,
great videos and tests. Many thanks.
Please be sure not to generate too high pressures oxyhydrogen, cause it is very explosive,
if the pressure is too high and it could selfexplode !
ALso be sure NEVER to photograph the gas with a Fotoflash camera, so never
use flash to photograph it.
The flash energy can be enough to fire the explosion up of it over a distance !
Good luck on your next motor tests !
Regards, Stefan.
Walter!
video is nice, although I have a question from what I saw. From the looks of the gas in your bubbler, I doubt that you are getting much over a few liters. What is the current at the 12V input?
Here is a very rough way to tell approx gas (give or take). If you have a clear cell that you can use a marker pen on, fill the cell with 50ml to 100ml at a time and mark the last few additions on the cell face. You can use a rough interplulation to gauge water consumed. 18mL for a mole or approx 22.4L.
You will get approx 2.7 watts per STP liter.
Maybe this will help.
Hi joule,
the current pullet from the 5 stage cell is 22 Amp at 12V. I got no idea how to realy measure the amount of gass. I just know with the bottle version what is also just somethings rough to give any idea if with the different setups is a increase of output, it takes about 30 sec for a 1/2 liter bottleto be filled.
For me only count what I can power in real life, for instance a IC engine of 3 or more hp to be usefull for my generators.
Back in the old days we had a saying that "all theorie is gray" I believe in results and dont care what the theorie says if we look back just a few years there was claimed pretty much from all major sience that it is not possible to poaer a IC engine with hydrogen, right? and what is now. If they find a good way to charge for it it is done.
Next weekend I will try again with the 5 stack cells to power the little 3hp engine lets see how it turns out. Hey I be allready happy that I could extend the running time of the 3 hp engine not quite double last weekend with the 3 stage cells. every little bit saved helps the budged.
In regards to the amount of water used to power something I believe it can not realy be measured by the amount of water lost in the cells because many have reported including credible institutes that a amount of 4 ounzes was enough to get 50 to 100miles with a car and there are many facts which playa role ther too like temperature etc.
lets see how it works out.
greetings
walt
Hi all,
for the guys here in the US there is a fset of flashback arestor for oxygen and azetylen for a cheap price $ 15.90 at harborfreight look here
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45674 this would safe all the hassle with building a bubbler.
maybe someone is interrested.
greetings
walt
Walter here is one on Ebay USA for 5.99 US$ :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330007656947 (http://partners.webmasterplan.com/click.asp?ref=284148&site=1382&subid=&type=text&tnb=32&diurl=http%3A%2F%2Fadfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F707-3922-3266-17%3Fmpro%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D330007656947)
Here are simular to your ones on EBAY USA:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260007286190 (http://partners.webmasterplan.com/click.asp?ref=284148&site=1382&subid=&type=text&tnb=32&diurl=http%3A%2F%2Fadfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F707-3922-3266-17%3Fmpro%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D260007286190)
Here is another one just for 5.46 US$ on EBay Usa:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120007991157 (http://partners.webmasterplan.com/click.asp?ref=284148&site=1382&subid=&type=text&tnb=32&diurl=http%3A%2F%2Fadfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F707-3922-3266-17%3Fmpro%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D120007991157)
And here are 2 pieces for bidding currently at 1.25 US$ only:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140008886882 (http://partners.webmasterplan.com/click.asp?ref=284148&site=1382&subid=&type=text&tnb=32&diurl=http%3A%2F%2Fadfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F707-3922-3266-17%3Fmpro%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D140008886882)
Hey Guys, careful with those Oxy/acetylene flashback arrestors!
I read somewhere that they are not good enough for hydroxy gas. They do make ones made specially for hydrogen applications.
Best
Yes, for safety I would also always use a bubbler and
never store more than 0.1 Liter of oxyhydrogen gas and also never
in other cases than plastic.
There is a video on my site http://cmnet.ca/projects/imgp0597.avi where I am igniting the gas as it is produced and you can see what happens when the flame back tracks to the bubbler... made me jumpÃ, :o You can see I had a small ball check valve to try to stop the back fire.
Quote from: pg46 on July 20, 2006, 08:56:12 AM
Hey Guys, careful with those Oxy/acetylene flashback arrestors!
I read somewhere that they are not good enough for hydroxy gas. They do make ones made specially for hydrogen applications.
Best
Hi pg46,
I heart this too but I also have seen vid where they was used with a real flashback and it did hold verry well. First I wana try it together with my bubbler and provoke a couple backfire to see how it holds up .
walt
Quote from: hartiberlin on July 20, 2006, 12:25:48 PM
Yes, for safety I would also always use a bubbler and
never store more than 0.1 Liter of oxyhydrogen gas and also never
in other cases than plastic.
Hi stefan,
what I try to do is make it possible to get a easy setup if used in a car or generator, without multiple container.
A bubbler with only 100 ml of gas room is not much my bubbler has about 0.6 liter free gas room. this is the only reserve for compensation during change of load.
I did find another verry importand point that somehow the cells after shut off would syphone water from the bubbler back in the pipes towards the cells without checkvalves. why this is I dont know right now but I will try to find out .
Another point is that the cells produce much more gass if the circuit is open for free flow as like I did the pressure measurement with the gauge. Also by another experiement with the little 3hp engine and the engine air intake totally closed off and the hose from the bubbler put in the carburator did the suction from the engine pull the water and electrolyte in the connector hoses and only as I open the airintake with a little hole about a 1/2 diameter it would not do this.
greetings
walt
Quote from: c0mster on July 20, 2006, 03:25:41 PM
There is a video on my site http://cmnet.ca/projects/imgp0597.avi where I am igniting the gas as it is produced and you can see what happens when the flame back tracks to the bubbler... made me jump :o You can see I had a small ball check valve to try to stop the back fire.
Hi comster,
nice vid, first what do use the ignition coil for? I believe you was realy lucky that you did not have a big electrolyzer cell on it, because the size hose where you did ignite whould probably have given a higher jump of the bubbler, like in my case I only had the hose of 1/8 diameter and on the end a 1/16 welding tip and it blow my pressure gauge which was on the bubbler connected with a 3/8 plastic hose, about 10 feet away and distroit the gauge. The boom was so loud that my wife heart it in my house which is 70 feet away and came running to see if I am OK.
But overall it is verry importand for security to have a flashback protection in the system. I just dont know why A flashback arrestor for azethylen would not work for the hydroxi which is similar to azethylen. If it would be pure hydrogen what comes out the cells there would be a major difference because then the flame would suck air what it needs from the outside right in to the systemand, kind of implode what is not the case with the hydroxi gas which is allready a combination hydrogen and oxygen and whould practical explode the contend.
But anyway I believe everybody who experiements with electrolyzer cells will experience a flashback.
greetings
walt
Walter!
Lets all hope that when you get to 4000 LPH. enough to run that 3hp engine past idle that you never have another explosion.
Walt
I used the ignition coil in the video to ignite the gas as it was created. The coil was driven by a resonant circuit tapped with a npn transistor to give a steady and rapid firing. The hose coming out of the bubbler was ?? with 2 pecies of 3/8? tube inside that held the little ball as a check valve. I decided after that to build a stack, like you see in the oil patch, it was a small brass tube, 6? long, crimped on the top end to a pin hole, like a torch end, to test burning the gas. The thing I found most interesting was that even though the end was like a torch and I had a check valve at the bottom, the flash backs still happened and it was like the gas had the ability to run back on itself, what I mean is, it seem to create a vacuum when it ignited and would not push the check valve closed by back pressure but suck it open. If you watch the video frame by frame you can see when it backfires how the flame actually starts at the bottom of the tube.
Camster
Quote from: c0mster on July 20, 2006, 03:25:41 PM
There is a video on my site http://cmnet.ca/projects/imgp0597.avi where I am igniting the gas as it is produced and you can see what happens when the flame back tracks to the bubbler... made me jump :o
You are producing detonation gas with this setup. This is a very dangerous mixture since it rather instable and carries its own supply of oxygen. Once it is ignited, the flame will run through the whole pipe system until it either runs out of gas or it finds a larger reservoir of this mixture. In this case you get a dangerous explosion. We've done some serious research with this kind of gas and it rocked the whole lab, despite all safety precautions we had taken. This is nothing one should play with in the garage or the kitchen, since someone easily and seriously could get hurt. ::)
just my 2 ct.
For my 1 cent of knowledge it seems to me that far to many people are doing H2+O2 (common duct) electrolysis in hope of the gold pot at the end of the rainbow, without any idea of what the danger is.
Using the wrong hose plastic or metal type is like a bomb. Mixing metals is far from wise, certain metals will act as a catalyst and ignite H2+O2. Improper hose plastics will cause leakage, (PTFE advised if you must use plastic).
One must fully understand that the spped of H2 is far faster than O2 thru a pipe, this leads to big problems.
Containers; NO glass, no plex, poly-carbonate maybe, stainless with relief valves are best.
Working with H2+O2 is (if you are getting real production) is far more dangerous than if you were running a meth lab.
This seat of the pants, get a lot of bubbles is one sure way to insure you are in trouble, maybe your wife or child. This is not a toy.
No having said that, we need people to work in this area, yet unless you obtain OU in the process you are playing mind games with yourself. Under ideal conditions (common cell) you can expect at best 94% eff., not feed it to a ICE and you get 35% eff., so what id the game here.
Train yourself, know the danger, learn how much gas (H2+O2) is required to equal a liter of gas and you will at once see where it appears to be one waste of time. Run your car on H2+O2, okay, can you produce 25-30 kLPH? If you can and still move the vehicle I want to talk to you in a serious way. ::)
I am not running anyone down, I just want to stop the waste and danger, getting bubbles en.mass or a nice blue flame is far from the real thing. Sorry, but its the botton line.
Please don't Spam the List, I just dumped on some so take it and grin :)
Quote from: joule on July 21, 2006, 08:52:59 AM
Walter!
Lets all hope that when you get to 4000 LPH. enough to run that 3hp engine past idle that you never have another explosion.
Hi joule,
i dont know about the 4000 LPH because there are to many different numbers out there what is needed for a IC engine the most data are comming from calculation based on pure pressurized hydrogen with a specific mixture on oxygen, here we are dealing with something different. I will find out how much it realy takes.
In regards to the explosion it did give quite something but in comparisson if you are familiar with oxy azethylen welding there are sometimes flashbacks too and i have seen bigger ones.
greetings
walt
Quote from: c0mster on July 21, 2006, 10:01:57 AM
Walt
I used the ignition coil in the video to ignite the gas as it was created. The coil was driven by a resonant circuit tapped with a npn transistor to give a steady and rapid firing. The hose coming out of the bubbler was ?? with 2 pecies of 3/8? tube inside that held the little ball as a check valve. I decided after that to build a stack, like you see in the oil patch, it was a small brass tube, 6? long, crimped on the top end to a pin hole, like a torch end, to test burning the gas. The thing I found most interesting was that even though the end was like a torch and I had a check valve at the bottom, the flash backs still happened and it was like the gas had the ability to run back on itself, what I mean is, it seem to create a vacuum when it ignited and would not push the check valve closed by back pressure but suck it open. If you watch the video frame by frame you can see when it backfires how the flame actually starts at the bottom of the tube.
Camster
Hi camster,
I mean that everyone experiementing with this has seen the explosion. A check valve does not prevent a flashback from going all the way, because like you say the gass runs back because it is not actually not a explosion it is like a implosion what means it sucks inside befor the flame expands. But with a bubbler this is the actually stop for anythings happening.
What kind of power you are using and what are the voltage and current? I also could not see what kind and how many plates you are using.
I got a big workshop 1400 sq feet and 16 feet high where I do my experiements with a concrete floor and steel walls.
greetings
walt
@Walter
I used a 12volt 14 Amp Hour motorcycle battery that pulled about 5 amps through the cell. You can see a picture of the ? od 316SS cell here http://cmnet.ca/projects/split.html and some other experiments I tried.
Camster
Here are now 3 videos from Walter.
This is the first one, showing him trying to run the output of the 2 electrolizers and
bubbler to his lawnmoyer motor.
But the gas production is still too low.
Here is the next video showing his 2 Electrolyzers in series and the bubbler
and the amount of gas he is producing at 12 Volts and 30 amps DC.
(You must be logged into the forum to be able to download the movies)
Here is the 3rd video from Walter , where he did let some air into the bubbler to mix into the
hydroxy gas, so the motor almost starts to run, but still too low volume
of gas.
Okay, this is now at about 360 Watts of input power.
Walter will now double the the electrolyzer cells to 4 cells
and will see, if he gets it to run then finally.
Well done Walter,
regards, Stefan.
360 Watts?
Watt/seconds or joules or watt/hours.
If I calculate it correctly with 2.7 watts per STP liter or ~ 60.48 watts per mole, then to get 360/2.7 = 133.33 liters? It does not seem that the gas production in even near this level? Wish him all the luck in the world, but I did post some time back that to run that engine on single duct gas only he would need about 4000 Liters per hour. 4000/60 = 66.67 liters per minute? Don't think so.
Okay, Walter emailed me again the results of his new tests with
2 x 2 cells so 2 in series and 2 of the units in parallel at 12 Volts and
drawing 55 Amperes.
Here are 2 pictures and the 3 videos he did send in the next posting.
Here are the 3 Videos Walter did send me.
Now with 660 Watts of input power the motor is running already a few seconds,
but it would need probably another 2 cells for the motor to run completely
on hydroxy gas.
So with about 1000 Watts of input power this thing should finally
produce enough gas to run this lawnmover motor.
Ans this is still with just 12 Volts DC and no pulsing yet.
Many thanks to Walter for working so hard on it.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: You have to be logged into the forum to see the pics and download
the videos.
The main problem Walter still has in this moment is still,
that when the motor sucks in the gas from the bubbler
and creates a vaccuum in his bubbler the
cells stop producing the gas, although the input power is running !
How can this be ?
Does the water inside the bubbler maybe then have more surface tension
when there is a vaccuum ontop of it, so the
hydroxy bubbles can?t go through
and need more pressure to go through the water ?
Or how can this be ?
Maybe somebody can answer this ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Has anybody seen any video from Tero Renta
and his experiments with his engine ?
Where is it ?
Here is a video I just received form Tero Ranta
with his experiments from his electrolizer cell.
I attach the video and his latest PDF file about it.
Many thanks to Tero.
Regards, Stefan.
harti,
alles was du ?ber elektrolyse , temeperatur druck usw wissen musst findest du (seit langer zeit) bei:
http://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/
ebenso alle patente zu diesem gebiet .
weiter sehr gute seiten zu 3 liter vergaser (auto) (seit 1932 patente !! )
sowie einen abgeschlossenen elektronik kurs.
Viel spass in dieser "unendlichen" fundgrube
pese
Some patents deploy an extra container (ahead of the bubbler) for the gas to collect in. Dennis Klein (US Patent 6866756) uses specially sized orifices in the vacuum line.
This patent TEACHES:
"THE SIZE OF THIS ORIFICE WILL DEPEND ON THE SIZE OF THE ENGINE. FOR EXAMPLE, AN ORIFICE DIAMETER OF ABOUT 0.04 IS SUITABLE FOR A 1 LITER ENGINE, ABOUT 0.06 INCHES IS SUITABLE FOR A 2.5 LITER ENGINE AND ABOUT 0.075 INCHES IS SUITABLE FOR A V8 ENGINE."
Sizes like these can be made by drilling out a brass plug. Use larger diameter bits to remove the lions share of the brass. When there is just a small amount of the material left to drill through, then use the right diameter bit, to complete the job.
I have noticed on my 3.5 HP Briggs & Stranton engine that a VACUUM PREASURE
GAGUE fluctuates like crazy. Most of these gagues have both Vacuum and Pressure
reads on the same dial. The needle moves wildly between these two extremes. So the engine is both accepting the gas and rejecting it at the same time about in time with the firing of the sparkplug.
Of course, if you add the HHO Gas to the Gasoline the engine will run proportionately longer, and better and cleaner, and cooler and will even add oxygen to the environment, with ANY fuel. One would be tempted to infer and predict this effect from Ruggerio Maria Santilli's and Dennis Klein's work on HHO Gas: namely that a unique MOLECULAR AND MAGNETIC (Magnecular) BOND occurs. However research during the 1970's at Cal. Tech. (JPL) and MIT, would lead to the same conclusions.
I've been watching this log and the progress it's made ... this may seem a little off topic ... but I was watching the Myth Busters "Diet Coke and Mentos" episode, and they were saying how the mentos candy worked so well with gas production was because of the nuculation or the tiny pitting of the surface, like on the moon.
So, I was wondering if anyone has ever tried sand blasting the surface of the stainless steel plates to encorrage more gas to form in the tiny holes? Maybe encorraging the bubbles to form.
Thanks for the great log!
;D Here is some fun: "Diet Coke and Mentos"
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3673360343168243565&q=diet+coke&hl=en
Along the lines of reading about more area to create the bubbles... I thought that if one were to use an 'air filter' design of rippled metal dividers, that it would create more surface area to possibly enhance gas production? Here is a picture to demonstrate the idea.
I am interested in the SS mesh in horizontal, and am wondering what progress people have made with different designs. As I have seen, it looks like circular with about 1/8 inch clearance seems to work nicely. Also if anybody has tackled the idea of having bubbles go around next set of mesh so they are not reformed back into water molecules.
Hi outerreach,
yes in my design of the circular mesh disc the bubbles are quenched between the two disc to thoutside and there they go directly up because the disc are about 1/4 to 3/8 smaler then the tube. I am working on the design that the lower disc of a plate pair what would then be also the lower plate from the next pair is a solid disc which will avoid that any of the bubbles from the lower pair can recombine in any way and force the bubbles to the outside and up.
I also have a version like somebody here has recommended Thanks for it, where the disc are hexagon shaped. This version is verry material saving and it seems that the bubbles are using the shortest way to escape. The hexagonale shape disc insert in a round tube gives more room at the site and a kind of vertical canals.
The pairs are space at 1/8 inch and the space to the next plate pair is 5/8 to 3/4 inch tests with smaler distance between the plate pairs have shown that there less bubbles and a kind of turbulence what lowers the output.
greetings
walt
This is how to fix the vacuum pressure problems with engines !
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-8809836514486955877
Regards, Stefan.
I have read every post and watched every video in this thread with great interest. Do the authors of this thread still post here? If so, what are the later advancements you have made along these lines?
Are there still some who think horizontal is better than vertical?
I enjoyed this thread. To everyone, thanks.