Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag, why do builders build their own ?
I assume operating speeds for commercially available motors/generators are used to avoid electromagnetic-eddies/drag .
I have noticed that all the motors I have ever seen have either one less or 1 more permanent-magnet or electro-magnet in the stator, compared to the rotor, I assume that is to eliminate a large amount of cogging-torque ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque ).
However, if youre putting 2 or more generators on the same shaft I assume this design ( detailed above ) would make it difficult to UN-ALIGN the generators to achieve "cogging-torque neutralization", SO, I assume thats one reason why builders may prefer to build their own generators, so that they will have the same amount of permanent-magnets or electro-magnets in the stator as on the rotor, so that they can easily UN-ALIGN them to achieve "cogging-torque neutralization".
'Builders building their own generators' seems to be a barrier to them achieving looped/completely-self-powered devices, maybe they should more often consider using the generators from wind-turbines, etc.
Unsure
Quote'Builders building their own generators' seems to be a barrier to them achieving looped/completely-self-powered devices, maybe they should more often consider using the generators from wind-turbines, etc.
In fact, the cogging was never the problem it is an effect called Lenz Law relating to any induced current producing an opposing braking effect. The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate.
This is by far the best video I have ever seen which shows the effects we in the Free Energy community are trying to work around...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA
Watch this video closely, study the effects, understand the how, what, where, when and why of it. If anyone can work around this singular problem then your the man and get a Nobel prize. It looks like magic doesn't it?, however that's the nature of science and it's always impossible until someone solves the problem then it's easy. I have done all the experiments in the video and you literally have to see it and feel it to believe it.
Again, solve this one problem and all the worlds energy needs are solved as well...
Regards
Eddy current losses are minimized by the use of laminated core steel. This is also done in other electric machinery where you find magnetic flux changing polarity or amplitude at frequency, like transformers. This also causes hysteresis losses in the core material which is addressed in the metallurgy of the electrical grade sheet steels. Together Eddy current and hysteresis losses are called core loss, sometimes referred to as magnetic drag. Cogging is typically not a significant factor in commercial power conversation machines at rated speed and can be addressed in design by using skews and or appropriate pole and tooth count. Servos and position control motors, or other speciality applications find methods to address cogging.
Regards,
bi
bistander
QuoteEddy current losses are minimized by the use of laminated core steel. This is also done in other electric machinery where you find magnetic flux changing polarity or amplitude at frequency, like transformers. This also causes hysteresis losses in the core material which is addressed in the metallurgy of the electrical grade sheet steels. Together Eddy current and hysteresis losses are called core loss, sometimes referred to as magnetic drag. Cogging is typically not a significant factor in commercial power conversation machines at rated speed and can be addressed in design by using skews and or appropriate pole and tooth count. Servos and position control motors, or other speciality applications find methods to address cogging.
Everything you have said it true and known in the art in my opinion however by the same token everything you have said does not move the conversation forward to resolving the inherent problem. Therein lies the real problem in my opinion, most can describe a thousand reasons why something cannot work but not one in which it can. However when someone can find that reason we call it a "discovery" and everything changes.
Which begs the question, why dwell on what cannot work when we know it serves no real purpose?. I mean, I can agree with your reasons and fill twenty pages of similar reasons why we cannot work around Lenz Law however what purpose would it serve other than repetition?. There it is isn't it?, repetition, however favoring the status quo is not why we are here, we mean to move beyond the norm into uncharted territory.
So in effect you have described nothing I didn't already know 20 years ago but how would one describe something we do not know?. How do we move forward... that is the question in my opinion.
Regards
Onepower,
I was addressing the OP. I hadn't seen your reply until after I posted. I saw no mention of Lenz. At the end of his post he does mention looping which I chose not to comment about.
I think people should learn how things work before attempting to alter the technology and search for new discoveries. How do you recognize novelty if you are unaware of the present SOA?
WRT Lenz's Law, I consider it by definition of the minus sign in the ubiquitous Faraday Law equation. Actually, I'm thankful for it. Without the simple effect it describes, we would have only chaos.
I love to see people experiment with electric machinery and is a reason that I participate on these forums; to attempt to help them understand the technology, as in my reply to the OP. Do I think one of these experimenters will succeed in building a FE machine? Not really. But possibly something interesting will develop or I might learn something.
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 11, 2020, 11:20:36 AM
I think people should learn how things work before attempting to alter the technology and search for new discoveries. How do you recognize novelty if you are unaware of the present SOA?
Greetings, bistander
Your approach is very linear. While that approach may work best for some, it may not work for others. Can we really apply rules to a field which officially does not exist, i.e., FE? After all, what's the worst that can happen, we discover prior/present SOA rather than novelty? Lateral works for me!
cheers
https://andyeklund.com/is-linear-thinking-bad/ (https://andyeklund.com/is-linear-thinking-bad/)
Quote from: NdaClouDzzz on October 11, 2020, 12:15:44 PM
Greetings, bistander
Your approach is very linear. While that approach may work best for some, it may not work for others. Can we really apply rules to a field which officially does not exist, i.e., FE? After all, what's the worst that can happen, we discover prior/present SOA rather than novelty? Lateral works for me!
cheers
https://dianecapri.com/2015/06/are-you-a-linear-or-lateral-thinker/ (https://dianecapri.com/2015/06/are-you-a-linear-or-lateral-thinker/)
Hi NCD,
Perhaps. But from the first sentence in this thread: "electromagnetic-eddies/drag". What is member 'unsure' talking about? It's difficult to know. I doubt he/she is familiar with the technical jargon, and likely is not referring to a component of core loss at all. But what to do? I just try to explain what the words mean the best I can and let 'unsure' set the direction of the discussion. I'm not attempting to set "rules"; just establish language/communication/terminology so we can have an intelligent discussion.
It never hurts to know what you're doing, but I do admit some discoveries are stumbled upon. And could have all the efforts made 'reinventing the wheel' been better applied?
Let this return to on-topic, which could be better defined, IMO.
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 11, 2020, 12:55:10 PM
It never hurts to know what you're doing, but I do admit some discoveries are stumbled upon.
Yes, Sir. I apologize if I sounded like I was being critical. That was not my intent. In fact, you said it best above.
Cheers
By electromagnetic-eddies/drag, I'm referring to the braking effect described by onepower,
"The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. "
Maybe a method would be to place COVERS ( made of bismuth or something ) 'around' the permanent-magnets or the coils, so that a current is only induced in the coil ( to be pulsed ) once the permanent-magnet ( or another electromagnetic-coil ) IS RIGHT IN FRONT of the coil to be pulsed, that would eliminate the the current being produced as the permanent-magnet ( or another electromagnetic-coil ) is starting to approach the coil to be pulsed, which may then greatly reduce the braking effect ( referring to the effect demonstrated by "moving a magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. " ).
There is only one rule in public overunity forums, if you have a looped/completely-self-powered device, you just don't upload it or detail it, since everyone agrees that ownership of these devices must be kept to an absolute minimum, and definitely must not be owned by those who cannot build one or even fully understand how they work.
The unexplained thing is all these youtube videos, functioning looped/completely-self-powered devices, which are just 'too' simple to construct, who is paying for this endless array of devices to be built and uploaded onto youtube, is it to create technical fog and confusion in wannabe makers so they won't be able to make a successful looped/completely-self-powered device, or is it just so people will subscribe to their youtube channel, how profitable ( how much income can they receive per week ) from high subscriptions to their channels .
Quote from: unsure on October 11, 2020, 02:31:50 PM
By electromagnetic-eddies/drag, I'm referring to the braking effect described by onepower,
"The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. "
<snip>
In that case, I think I answered your question. In commercial electric machinery it is a loss mechanism which is managed by design to levels of a few percent of rated power and in very large machines, to a fraction of a percent of converted power.
In other applications it is a desired effect such as Eddy current brakes/retarders used on trucks and large machinery.
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 11, 2020, 02:47:13 PM
In that case, I think I answered your question. In commercial electric machinery it is a loss mechanism which is managed by design to levels of a few percent of rated power and in very large machines, to a fraction of a percent of converted power.
In other applications it is a desired effect such as Eddy current brakes/retarders used on trucks and large machinery.
Regards,
bi
Hi,
Having done some work on this problem there are a few observations that lead along a path to improvement.
The efficiency is actually very poor because generators are built incorrectly and suffer from the same problem as motors.
Overall efficiency from hydro generator, the electricity grid, to work done by a motor is less than 1%.
By calculation it can be shown for a particular job it would take 10000 tonnes of water through a turbine to turn the generator to move 9tonnes of aggregate up a hill in a certain time with an electric motor.
If an E I core is opened up to act as a solenoid and the winding energized with a low voltage DC current the I is attracted. When the current is turned off the I will remain attracted to the E for some noticeable time before it separates.
The electric current produces a magnetic attraction (circuit) that continues after the electric current has stopped. It leaks away slowly.
Much more voltage is required than actually necessary.
By studying transformer action it became apparent what the answer is.
Allan
Quote from: unsure on October 11, 2020, 02:31:50 PM
There is only one rule in public overunity forums, if you have a looped/completely-self-powered device, you just don't upload it or detail it, since everyone agrees that ownership of these devices must be kept to an absolute minimum, and definitely must not be owned by those who cannot build one or even fully understand how they work.
OU members must be busy today.
Quote from: AllanV on October 11, 2020, 05:00:34 PM
Hi,
Having done some work on this problem there are a few observations that lead along a path to improvement.
The efficiency is actually very poor because generators are built incorrectly and suffer from the same problem as motors.
Overall efficiency from hydro generator, the electricity grid, to work done by a motor is less than 1%.
By calculation it can be shown for a particular job it would take 10000 tonnes of water through a turbine to turn the generator to move 9tonnes of aggregate up a hill in a certain time with an electric motor.
If an E I core is opened up to act as a solenoid and the winding energized with a low voltage DC current the I is attracted. When the current is turned off the I will remain attracted to the E for some noticeable time before it separates.
The electric current produces a magnetic attraction (circuit) that continues after the electric current has stopped. It leaks away slowly.
Much more voltage is required than actually necessary.
By studying transformer action it became apparent what the answer is.
Allan
Hi Allan,
What you claim about the pumped water example is not due to inefficiency of the electric dynamos (motor and generator). Pumped hydro is a legitimate method of grid scale energy buffering or storage with efficiencies comparable to other methods like batteries and is considered where terrain is favorable.
Your example of the steel attraction to the electromagnet after it is de energized sounds like simple residual magnetism. The effect would be more pronounced using a harder iron (magnetically speaking) rather than transformer laminations which which are magnetically soft to minimize hysteresis core loss.
If you feel can improve current electromechanical energy conversion technology, go for it. I feel you're mistaken about generators and motors suffering some problem due to being built wrong. But you're entitled to opinion.
Regards,
bi
Unsure
As shown in the eddy current drag video I posted almost all the energy to turn a loaded generator is to overcome eddy current forces. Note that whenever they dropped the magnet through an air core coil with a load attached the magnet experienced a braking action. This shows us the drag is produced from the circular current in the turns of the coil opposing the magnet. The drag effect is present whether an iron core is present or not.
This is the reason why loaded generators take so much input power to turn them. This also led to the assumption that the input is always proportional to the output or COP < 1.
However as we know some creative inventors have found a way to work around this braking effect.
Regards
Quote from: onepower on October 11, 2020, 08:48:24 PM
Unsure
As shown in the eddy current drag video I posted almost all the energy to turn a loaded generator is to overcome eddy current forces.
<snip>
Hi onepower,
I've never heard the forces (usually expressed as torque) resulting from load current in a generator called "eddy current forces". Lorentz force is the term commonly used for source of the primary shaft torque.
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 11, 2020, 06:21:17 PM
Hi Allan,
What you claim about the pumped water example is not due to inefficiency of the electric dynamos (motor and generator). Pumped hydro is a legitimate method of grid scale energy buffering or storage with efficiencies comparable to other methods like batteries and is considered where terrain is favorable.
Your example of the steel attraction to the electromagnet after it is de energized sounds like simple residual magnetism. The effect would be more pronounced using a harder iron (magnetically speaking) rather than transformer laminations which which are magnetically soft to minimize hysteresis core loss.
If you feel can improve current electromechanical energy conversion technology, go for it. I feel you're mistaken about generators and motors suffering some problem due to being built wrong. But you're entitled to opinion.
Regards,
bi
Hi bi,
Thanks for your reply.
The problem with hydro a head is required to give enough velocity to the water. The turbines are said to be over 90% efficient but this must be according to what is extracted from the velocity loss which must not drop to much.
The amount of water to produce 1Kwh is about 90tonnes with a 30meter head which is about 25liters/sec. If this force of water was applied directly into a Tesla turbine with 10inch (250mm) discs the output would be very large. It could be worked out, easy.
It is a simple fact, 10,000 tonnes of water are required to move 9 tonnes of crushed rock up a track. Water has huge power through gravity and if used directly using two containers, a pulley and a wire rope a little more than 9tonne would be required.
It sounds a bit like the joke about the brick layers laborer attempting to get the bricks to the top of the building. Oh well.
A vehicle is constructed but there seems little sense in using stored water, losses in the electric grid and then battery storage as well.
As far as motor design is concerned whether it is called residual or eddy currents the net result is the same. A large voltage is required to over come the effects. Once the magnetic circuit is closed tight perhaps eddie currents are sustained and become a residual effect. In an AC sine wave system both will need to reverse.
With a gap in the magnetic circuit the eddies are not self sustaining at the strongest level.
Leedskalnin: Man of Magnets built the magnetic holder and even after a long period of time has passed there is a voltage produced in a copper winding when the magnetic circuit is broken.
This is part of transformer action and it can be demonstrated that it is the driving down of the residual magnetism into the opposite polarity that gives the best output.
Motors are the same in one sense. The magnetism does work on the rotor and when the field collapses it draws current. AC sine wave will draw excessive current at a high voltage in relation to the amount of work done. The electric circuit needs to be cut. A residual effect with eddie currents remains and needs a reverse pulse to repel the rotor instead of drag.
The electric motor and generator are half built and there is another half required for both of them.
Many people have studied and reflected on the design problem and it is not opinion that drives the understanding.
All the best,
Allan
There are, (besides voltage, amperage and resistance, OHMS law) the factors, of reluctance and reactance when dealing with changes in voltage / amperage.
1. Voltage leads, current in time. In other words, when a voltage (an electric potential difference) along a conductor changes (either increases or decreases), there is a very small time delay of the resulting current flow, (as either increase or decrease). The change in the amount of amperage (current flow) does not occur absolutely simultaneously to the change in voltage. The voltage change is quicker.
2. That current flow starts as zero and increases to some maximum. This change in current is along a time / magnitude of the current, curve.
3. While the current flowing through a conductor is increasing in magnitude, the magnetic field around that conductor (which is present as a result of the current flow) is expanding.
4. That expanding / increasing magnetic field around the conductor, also lags in time, behind the rate of the change in the applied voltage.
5. If the voltage is shut off, the electric current flow does not stop instantly. The current flow persists (briefly). This is analogous (some what) to the momentum of a "regular world" object requiring some amount of time to come to a stop after a force propelling it ends. It like a kind of momentum.
6. 3. While the current flowing through a conductor is decreasing in magnitude, the magnetic field around that conductor (which is present as a result of the current flow) is also decreasing.
7. 4. That shrinking / decreasing magnetic field around the conductor, also lags in time, behind the rate of the change in the applied voltage.
8. If we pass a conductor through a magnetic field, an electric voltage arises in that conductor and
this, in turn, causes an electric current to flow through that conductor. Note that we can instead,
pass a magnetic field through a conductor.
9. A magnetic field that is expanding (or contracting) (around a conductor), is in a kind of motion, in relationship to the / a conductor. Even when that electric current (flowing through the conductor), is the cause of that magnetic field (to begin with).
10. While the magnetic field around a conductor is expanding, it generates an electric current in that conductor which is in the same direction as the original current.
11. Once the voltage is shut off, the electric current (and voltage) generated by the collapse of the magnetic field around the conductor, is in the opposite direction of the original current flow, ( a back spike).
12. Forming wire into a coil can affects the impedance and reactance. But placing a core within the
coil can profoundly affect the impedance and the reactance.
Example...
An iron object acquires a net magnetic field, due to a net alignment of atomic / molecular elements / structures within that iron object.
An applied (to the iron object) external magnetic field (from a current through a coil) can generate a net magnetic field which far exceeds the field produced by the coil alone.
The speed with which atoms and molecules within an iron object, can magnetically align / un align is
slow compared to the rapidness the applied magnetic field ( from the coil) can change. Actual real world objects (atoms) have very real / large momentum potentials, as compared to the photons / magnetic field of the coils magnetic field.
13. All this is related to / involved in, hysteresis losses but considred seperatly.
floor
Bistander
I am aware many call the generator braking effect the Lorentz force or Lenz Law. However many of the most credible Free Energy inventors with working technology called it an eddy current generator.
In fact the generator induced current direction and magnitude are the same as an eddy current following the same rules so I also chose to call it what it is...an eddy current generator.
Strange isn't it?, people choose to build generators designed to produce the most opposition to the input as a braking action. That is how all the successful FE inventors described it. People just keep repeating what others do and don't seem to have the capacity to analyze the true nature of the problem.
So yes, I call it what it is, an eddy current generator designed to produce a braking force equal to the input which is kind of absurd when we think about it.
Regards
Quote from: onepower on October 12, 2020, 03:49:32 PM
Bistander
I am aware many call the generator braking effect the Lorentz force or Lenz Law. However many of the most credible Free Energy inventors with working technology called it an eddy current generator.
<snip>
onepower,
From the first sentence in this thread: "Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag,". Note word 'commercially'. He/she didn't inquire about Free Energy motors/generators, of which none exist.
And where would I find one of those whom you refer to as "credible* FE inventors"? I'd like to approach him/her with a few questions including why the definition of eddy current differs from mainstream physics. I was taught the eddy current was the current flowing in single turn shorted path or loop existing in conductive material experiencing changing magnetic field caused by induction. Load current, even at short circuit, in generator coils is not an eddy current.
It's unfortunate and confusing when FE inventors choose to apply existing terminology to different attributes. I don't think you do the OP any favors using your definition. Besides you, where might he/she go to find this particular definition of eddy current?
Regards,
bi
*edit --- fixed quote (sorry for mistake)
Builders would be attempting to reduce the drag on the rotor by building their own motor.
One Adam's design used the rotor magnet's attraction to the stator pole for rotation. A short pulse was activated to repel the magnet as it crossed the stator pole. Another coil was positioned precisely, close to the driving stator pole for a generated output.
A refinement was to have a magnet width less than the stator pole.
Most devices have a small output and the dimensions and weight are out of proportion to any small gain.
Eric Roberts Laithwaite was a British electrical engineer, known as the "Father of Maglev" for his development of the linear induction motor and maglev rail system.
A British citizen who liked gyroscopic forces and magnetic repulsion.
He built a long laminated steel rod with a winding and on one end cut a slot and embedded a solid conductor. A 2cm metal disc would be repelled very strongly when the coil was energized.
A motor could be built to first attract and then instantly repel and this works well in an induction motor.
A standard 415 volt 5Kw 3phase motor can be set up to run on 75-100volts single phase and 0.05A (5watts). A separate inductor and capacitors create a phase shift that would only usually occur when the motor is accelerating. This creates more magnetism and the motor will run at 1498-1499rpm on 50Hz. Out put load test was not performed and the fan was removed. The rotor shaft became warm.
bistander
QuoteFrom the first sentence in this thread: "Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag,". Note word 'commercially'. He/she didn't inquire about Free Energy motors/generators, of which none exist.
I could use the populist argument that you can't prove none exist but that would be lame.
However I have seen working FE devices and know other credible people who have as well. So I would simply say so far as your concerned none exist and apparently were okay with that.
QuoteAnd where would I find one of those whom you refer to as "credible* FE inventors"? I'd like to approach him/her with a few questions including why the definition of eddy current differs from mainstream physics. I was taught the eddy current was the current flowing in single turn shorted path or loop existing in conductive material experiencing changing magnetic field caused by induction. Load current, even at short circuit, in generator coils is not an eddy current.
A coil or any conductive path which is closed whether it is one loop or one thousand produces the same result as an eddy current. It's important to understand the science with respect to cause and effect. The forces and effects in an induced coil are the same as eddy currents in a plate. A changing magnetic field induces an electron current in a conductive material like a plate or closed coil of wire which produces an opposition or breaking action on the magnetic field which induced it. I could wind a square coil or any shape or weld the turns together and the breaking action is still present if the electron current path is closed or circular ergo... same effect.
QuoteIt's unfortunate and confusing when FE inventors choose to apply existing terminology to different attributes. I don't think you do the OP any favors using your definition. Besides you, where might he/she go to find this particular definition of eddy current?
It's debatable, when I understood our generators are based on the the same effect as eddy currents producing the same braking action the effect on me was profound. I then went on to do experiments to prove it using different kinds of coil, plate and core geometries. It also proved to me this kind of setup is a waste of time which saved me months maybe years of research. After I determined this kind of induction geometry always produces a breaking force I looked for alternatives which eventually led to better ways of doing things. I have always found intuition and hands on experiments are the best way to make real progress.
Regards
Quote from: onepower on October 13, 2020, 02:06:28 AM
bistander
<snip>
After I determined this kind of induction geometry always produces a breaking force I looked for alternatives which eventually led to better ways of doing things. I have always found intuition and hands on experiments are the best way to make real progress.
Regards
Please share your better way.
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 06:19:51 AM
Please share your better way.
Regards,
bi
I believe he did back in 2008 on that other forum. There was a short mention of it here. https://overunity.com/12086/kornelsons-free-energy-transformer/
But what do I know, I'm just an uneducated ignoramus.
Quote from: Cadman on October 13, 2020, 10:02:35 AM
I believe he did back in 2008 on that other forum. There was a short mention of it here. https://overunity.com/12086/kornelsons-free-energy-transformer/
But what do I know, I'm just an uneducated ignoramus.
Thanks Cadman,
And I did not call you those names. I said you need to improve your basic knowledge of electricity due to your statement "If the entire amount of electrical energy was converted into mechanical energy, there would be nothing coming out on the negative terminal of your motor. 0 volts, 0 current."
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 11:39:23 AM
Thanks Cadman,
And I did not call you those names. I said you need to improve your basic knowledge of electricity due to your statement "If the entire amount of electrical energy was converted into mechanical energy, there would be nothing coming out on the negative terminal of your motor. 0 volts, 0 current."
Regards,
bi
Interesting that you knew exactly what, where and when my words pertained to. I never said you called me names. You implied it, "Educate yourself". Anyone who is uneducated is by definition, ignorant.
BTW, the sentence you quoted was written by me to point out the absurdity of thinking that all electrical energy going through a DC motor was converted into mechanical energy.
What say we get back on topic?
Quote from: Cadman on October 13, 2020, 12:05:20 PM
Interesting that you knew exactly what, where and when my words pertained to. I never said you called me names. You implied it, "Educate yourself". Anyone who is uneducated is by definition, ignorant.
BTW, the sentence you quoted was written by me to point out the absurdity of thinking that all electrical energy going through a DC motor was converted into mechanical energy.
What say we get back on topic?
Cadman,
It's pretty easy to follow your post history at EF. But impractical to find allcanadian's post telling of his free energy.
And why is it absurd to think all the power delivered to the motor's terminals is either converted to mechanical power out the shaft or waste heat due to motor losses? Actually, this is on topic, is it not?
Regards,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
...And why is it absurd to think all the power delivered to the motor's terminals ...
".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."
Quote from: Cadman on October 13, 2020, 01:03:44 PM
".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."
Hi Cadman,
I don't understand your quote. Please provide a reference or example.
I've worked with specialized devices which use a combination of electrical and mechanical inputs and outputs, but please keep your answer simple as related to say the MY1020 scooter motor with a battery source and say a friction brake load.
Thanks,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
..I don't understand your quote. Please provide a reference or example.
Uh-huh, sure you don't,
I am not going to engage in one of your endless, pointless, hair splitting debates. Anyone with any sense at all knows that a DC motor is not an infinite resistance device.
If you want to believe that a DC motor consumes, dissipates, converts, or whatever you want to call it, every electron from the DC source then fine, you do that.
Whatever makes you happy.
Quote from: Cadman on October 13, 2020, 03:29:08 PM
Uh-huh, sure you don't,
I am not going to engage in one of your endless, pointless, hair splitting debates. Anyone with any sense at all knows that a DC motor is not an infinite resistance device.
If you want to believe that a DC motor consumes, dissipates, converts, or whatever you want to call it, every electron from the DC source then fine, you do that.
Whatever makes you happy.
Cadman,
I don't believe electrons are consumed, converted or disapated at all. And certainly, a functionning DC motor isn't an infinite resistance device. I do subscribe to mainstream science and engineering theory about electrical energy conversion. OK if you don't want to discuss it. Too bad because I'd really like to know what you're talking about.
But at least tell me this. How do you measure
".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."?
Thanks,
bi
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 04:10:59 PM
But at least tell me this. How do you measure
".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."?
Thanks,
bi
With a Hewlett-Packard model Five-Seven-One-Oh-A dual-column gas chro-mato-graph with flame analyzing de-tectors, of course.
::)
Quote from: Cadman on October 13, 2020, 04:55:50 PM
With a Hewlett-Packard model Five-Seven-One-Oh-A dual-column gas chro-mato-graph with flame analyzing de-tectors, of course.
::)
You won't even give me a serious answer to a simple sincere civil question so I might understand what it is you're talking about. Why is that? Can anyone tell or give me a hint? Maybe refer to an example of electrical energy going through a DC motor?
Regards,
bi
This may be useful.
https://www.nidec.com/en-EU/technology/motor/basic/00001/
POWER FLOW IN MOTOR & IN GENERATOR
Quote from: bistander on October 13, 2020, 05:19:45 PM
You won't even give me a serious answer to a simple sincere civil question so I might understand what it is you're talking about. Why is that? Can anyone tell or give me a hint? Maybe refer to an example of electrical energy going through a DC motor?
Regards,
bi
When my children were young we had an electric train. There were the usual problems so a variable pulse width power supply was built and it had a frequency of 2.2Khz. A good improvement, but after some thought small capacitors were soldered onto the commutator segments to suppress the contact arcing. It is much like the ignition points on the older cars where a capacitor is absolutely necessary.
The lift in the motor speed with reduced current was apparent and the brush plate was then adjusted slightly as well.
The DC train motor was working in a sweet spot.
It's not a capacitor on a car it's a combination with a resister and a capacitor, do you know why a resister is added as well ?
@ unsure
quote .. unsure
Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag, why do builders build their own ?
end quote
1. There are, I suspect, as many different reasons why people, some times build a motor from scratch, as there are builders. There is no single simple answer to your question.
quote .. unsure
There is only one rule in public overunity forums, if you have a looped/completely-self-powered device, you just don't upload it or detail it, since everyone agrees that ownership of these devices must be kept to an absolute minimum, and definitely must not be owned by those who cannot build one or even fully understand how they work.
end quote
Do you have one for sale ?
quote .. unsure
The unexplained thing is all these youtube videos, functioning looped/completely-self-powered devices, which are just 'too' simple to construct,
end quote
1. There are a huge number of Bogus O.U. devices on you tube.
2. A huge number of these fakes, are extreamly easy to build your self.
quote .. unsure
who is paying for this endless array of devices to be built and uploaded onto youtube, is it to create technical fog and confusion in wannabe makers so they won't be able to make a successful looped/completely-self-powered device, or is it just so people will subscribe to their youtube channel, how profitable ( how much income can they receive per week ) from high subscriptions to their channels .
end quote
1. Youtube hits, for sure. A few dollars goes a long way in some parts of the world.
2. Sure seems like it could perhaps be part of a disinformation effort, to me.
3. It makes the posters feel important.
best wishes
floor
Quote from: AlienGrey on October 14, 2020, 01:40:01 AM
It's not a capacitor on a car it's a combination with a resister and a capacitor, do you know why a resister is added as well ?
Just from memory.
Not always both in combination. Older low compression engines did not have a resistor in series with the coil.
Starting problems can occur in a high compression engine with a weak ignition spark and it is normal practice to only add a resistor into the circuit once the engine is running. The coil's resistor when used reduces the current and voltage to the coil once the engine is started and running with the ignition key off the crank motor position.
A ballasted coil gets too hot to be used constantly without the resistor. The resistor can become faulty with age. The engine may crank and fire but when the key position changes the motor will misfire and probably stop.
The capacitor is to maintain the integrity of the points and it also increases the coil voltage substantially. When the points open the current ceases to create the magnetic field which then collapses and continues to draw current across the opening points that burn with the arc that is produced. A bit like a welder. The capacitor diverts the current away from the points.
The capacitor must be matched to the coil and a lump of metal building on one side or the other of the contact surfaces of the points indicates whether the farad value of the capacitor needs to be greater or less.
When the points break or open, the spark occurs at the spark plug and this fires the mixture at the precise time which combusts in the engine chamber to produce pressure with the heat of the burn.
Memory tells me the advance weight mechanism and vacuum diaphragm on the distributor must work correctly as well, to get optimal starting and running performance, power and longevity from the IC engine.
The idea of a pulse motor was explored and the examples were Bedinni and Adams.
Their designs seemed to be working with such small amounts of power gain but claims of large gains in efficiency and overunity.
A mono pole, eight magnets, was built with 4 double wound coils. The magnets are on a 10inch (250mm) diameter
It takes 20watts 1.62A 12volt to drive it and the recovered pulse energy from it reaches 100volts with a 12000 ohm resistor, just over 1watt.
There is no significant torque produced. The 20watts used was due to the drag of the weak magnets on the four pole faces which could be compared to the residual or Eddie losses.
If one coil was used there would be less drag than the four. The coils are open and the pole gap is small. The magnets are not strong.
A separate 2 winding inductor was installed to store energy and to then send a reverse current through one stator winding to reverse the magnetic field instantly through a transformer action. The current flowed first through the stator windings and then through the separate 2winding inductor. There is a turns ration in both.
The performance changed significantly.
400volts recovered was achieved with an accelerating rotor. The input from a 12 volt battery had a diode and the voltage on a capacitor reached 70 volts before it was switched off. Both output and input of the transformer action, by reversing the current in one winding, gives a sharp increase in performance. If the power is recycled efficiency increases.
The magnetic drag on the rotor had been eliminated without using any extra input from the battery. In fact it was less because there is more resistance in the circuit. The speed increase shortens the pulse but there are more of them per time.
Rather than have a mono pole a motor could be developed to use DC with a repelling effect to make the residual field useful.
Magnets are not needed.
The torque developed is small when compared to the power but the electrical energy could be recycled.
An eccentric in the rotor could be an improvement because a mechanical advantage would break the magnetic drag.
There are definitely gains to be made with improved design but they will not be manufactured at any time soon.
The reason to study, experiment and build is to bypass the drag on the poles of the rotor.
Comparing the introduction of 'swept-wings' ( or delta-wings ) to enable supersonic-flight, to defeating the braking effect described by onepower -
"The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. "
What if the windings swept-back, for example, imagine the windings are a mirror, if you look at the mirror, then tilt it until you can no longer see yourself, you should( ? ) no longer get that braking effect described by onepower.
I know there is at least one company which makes special electric-generators ( and motors ? ) which don't have ( or minimal ? ) the braking effect ( and, torque/cogging ? ), they seem to do it by putting the windings on an angle, however, the face of those windings still seems the face the inducing-magnet ( rotor ? ) just like a mirror right in front of it.
The wind-generators also seem to have a low braking effect ( and, torque/cogging ? ).
__
Another idea, theres a video somewhere on youtube, showing two lego synchronous( ? ) or stepper( ? ) motors connected to each other only by the wires ( they are not connected by the shaft ), and when you spin one, it generates enough power to spin the other one, the movement of the generator is replicated completely ( 100 % ) to the motor, incredible !, surely those particular motors would be the basis for an overunity-device.
You could put 4 of those on the same shaft, and offset them to achieve 'cogging/torque-neutralization', and just use one as the turning motor, the other 3 as generators.