Hello
This all started in MagDrive thread. I had know idea how much interest this would cause.
So here is the video that started it all .This plasma reactor is a heater and a heater only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeTQW2pH2Oc
The first thing you should notice is this is not a white hot arc. I found that that type of arc is much to hot for my use.
Ok now,Just to start everyone out.
The plasma system.
One 1/8 tungsten welding rod (Green Tip)Pure tungsten.
One 100 micron 316L stainless steel Paint sprayer Graco filter mesh 1"Dia x 4"long.Make sure the rod is right in the center of the screen tube.Make all connection solid and arc outside the water will go BOOM.
Now on the Tungsten you must cover with Teflon(Good for last hours) or coat in ceramic (Preferred last for months) all of the rod except for about 1/2" at the tip arc end.
120AC rectified and non smoothed. You get about 118vdc 120hz.Start up is 30 amps final at high temp is from 1.0 to 0.1amps maintaining a stable arc.
115VAC full wave rectified is fine to work with.
This is a good start.
Now you will not see a reaction in this till you hear it start to vibrate at about 130*F
At 150F to 160F you will get your arc .This can take from 10 min to 1 hour depending on your water. use tap water.
This type of system has run for months ( Rod adjustment weekly at 24 hours a day)before rebuild. Using a radiator to keep temps at bay.150F to 200F shut it off at 200 you have heat stored.
As a fully finished circulatory system heater When it gets to 200*F it shuts off.The pump runs and circulates water through a tube in the floor . The pump shuts down when the cell drops to 100*F. This is all controlled by thermostat.
Just Build It
Ironhead
Is this filter mesh something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140093743494
??
Can you please post pictures of the device, before you operate it under water ?
Many thanks.
P.S: Why not the lightly radioactive Cerium doped red tip tungsten rods ?
Is the stainless steel mesh around the Tungsten rod something like this ??
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpainthose.net%2Fcart%2Fimages%2Flarge%2FNew%2520manifold%2520pic%25207-7-06_LRG.jpg&hash=dada0595c00984e9dd413edbdb19894b592fd34a)
P.S: Baking soda is not good,
cause it can release CO gas, which is very toxic !
Don?t breath it.
Better go with K2CO3.
The problem I had in my experiments with cold fusion is,
that it always burned up the Tungsten rods.
Maybe the green tip tungsten rods are better than my red tip ones ?
Ironhead you say, when the right temperature is reached and the arc is burning
you still use about 0.1 to 1 Amp and at around 100 Volts this
is still about 10 to 100 Watts of input.
How much heat did you generate ?
You said in the youtube page,
"that the heat coming from the radiator core is
about 5 times greater than a 1000 watt 120vac room heater."
If this is true, that would be at least a factor 10 of more output
than input.
That would be really great if this could be replicated and verified !
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 07:45:33 PM
Is the stainless steel mesh around the Tungsten rod something like this ??
You found the right one .
JLN Labs got 15 times , thats a very nice cell they built.
The gas coming from the cell is filtered and release outside the living space.
I don't us baking soda anymore though as I have posted on youtube this is tap water.
The way I figured out the heat was enough to show me it will make a nice floor heating system . So I built it.
There is more maintenance than I would like. But I will solve that soon. I will build new reactor using a tungsten wire feed system and fully automate the process.
Yes Tungsten is consumed but at a much low rate than what most have seen in this type of cell do to ,two different resigns. The reactor never goes over 200*F and the system is intermittent.
Also green tip rod is better. But temps and current are very important here.You must turn the reactor on and off as I have described to retain the tungsten for long periods of time. Understand that if you water temps goes up to full boil your rod temp goes way up.
IronHead
IronHead I see,
Many thanks for the infos.
In the YouTube video you wrote you used Sodium Chloride ( Tablesalt , NaCl).
Is this necessary or did you drop it now and only use tap water now ?
In the video one can see, that the arc is pretty yellow,
which means Natrium ( Sodium) is involved, but it could
release some Chlorine gas, which is toxic.
So could this be used at all without any electrolyte salt ?
I guess you are right, it needs a good temperature control circuit,
so the water never goes over a certain level of temperature and
the current pulses must be controlled for the best and most
economic burning and lowest Tungsten consumption.
Maybe also TungstenCarbid ( WoC) rods can be used ?
It is said to be still harder than just Tungsten.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 09:42:47 PM
IronHead I see,
Many thanks for the infos.
In the YouTube video you wrote you used Sodium Chloride ( Tablesalt , NaCl).
Is this necessary or did you drop it now and only use tap water now ?
In the video one can see, that the arc is pretty yellow,
which means Natrium ( Sodium) is involved, but it could
release some Chlorine gas, which is toxic.
So could this be used at all without any electrolyte salt ?
I guess you are right, it needs a good temperature control circuit,
so the water never goes over a certain level of temperature and
the current pulses must be controlled for the best and most
economic burning and lowest Tungsten consumption.
Maybe also TungstenCarbid ( WoC) rods can be used ?
It is said to be still harder than just Tungsten.
Regards, Stefan.
This is my video. I wrote nothing about salt.
maybe there is a link problem. The color might be from my water it is well water.
So I am sure there is all kinds of nasty stuff in it lol
This is why I vent the gas out and run through carbon and resin scubber.
And the green rod is a pure tungsten version .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeTQW2pH2Oc
IronHead
Hmm,
here is another simular video and the guy "majorvoltage" there wrote this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RICa4OW38bI
majorvoltage :
With about 150 volts DC applied to aquious sodium chloride elecrolyte through tungsten electrodes. The cathode is made to have a much smaller surface area than the anode so that the hydrogen produced on it surrounds it and forces the current to arc through it, turning it into plasma.
============
Is this also another useraccount from you IronHead ?
Did you earlier use sodium chloride elecrolyte ?
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 09:50:57 PM
Hmm,
here is another simular video and the guy "majorvoltage" there wrote this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RICa4OW38bI
majorvoltage :
With about 150 volts DC applied to aquious sodium chloride elecrolyte through tungsten electrodes. The cathode is made to have a much smaller surface area than the anode so that the hydrogen produced on it surrounds it and forces the current to arc through it, turning it into plasma.
============
Is this also another useraccount from you IronHead ?
Did you earlier use sodium chloride elecrolyte ?
No thats not me but that guy did post to my video and message me asking how to make a good stable arc. You can see a huge differance between mine and his he is at 150Volts with salt ... I am at 120V in tap water. But puls e is the key here. even just using 120hz you will do much better then he is showing
Also that kind of thing will eat up tungsten in a very short time.I think it is because the plasma is not coming away from the rod, understand ?
If you look very close at mine there seems to be a sort of cavitation pocket
at the tip of the rod.
One more thing, and you only see this on camera, There seems to be specs of electric charged particles jumping into a steam . I have better video of this happening . In one video the are dancing all around the SS screen.
.
I see,
yeah, it seems you have to generate the Hydrogen gas with a pulse and then
cut off sharply the power, so that the Hydrogen gas just jumps away from the
electrode and the recombines in the arc with the generated oxygen at a distance from
the electrodes...
I guess this requires a good tuned pulsing circuit setup to reduce the consumption
of the TungstenCarbid rod.
Is the Stainless Steel mesh also consumed in your device, IronHead ?
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 08, 2007, 10:14:19 PM
I see,
yeah, it seems you have to generate the Hydrogen gas with a pulse and then
cut off sharply the power, so that the Hydrogen gas just jumps away from the
electrode and the recombines in the arc with the generated oxygen at a distance from
the electrodes...
I guess this requires a good tuned pulsing circuit setup to reduce the consumption
of the TungstenCarbid rod.
Is the Stainless Steel mesh also consumed in your device, IronHead ?
Not as of yet there are some tiny holes in it so far like burn holes.
I am uploading the video with the electron looking activity to YouTub now.
Damn they compressed it to much you can't see them now. I need a place to store a video of this, it is fascinating. 3.7 megs
Here we go , take a look at this ,the blue electric like critters.This one burned up but you get the idea.
Hi IronHead,
is this new video now 90 degrees rotated ?
Where is the Tungstencarbid rod coming into the mesh tube ?
From the right side ?
Many thanks.
Fusion Dance AVI
The reactor is vertical the video was taken at 90* to get the full shot.
Tungsten blue tip rod enters from the right. This rod burned up fast about 2 hours.
Also the screen burned up in about 12 hours on this old test, about 3 years old.
This reactor did release a lot of energy, but as you can see the pulses were getting close but not right. This arc is considered unstable.
Do not use Blue Tip rods use the Green Tip Pure Tungsten rod.
Maybe principle with aluminum, and high frequency, explain on my web pages http://free-ri.htnet.hr/Branko/index.html (http://free-ri.htnet.hr/Branko/index.html) will help. If someone has deuterium source can try this.
Aluminum Oxide production in a plasma or electrolysis reaction is highly poisonous.
Sorry, but I can't see how can Al2O3 be poison. Plasma on aluminum in water without any acid or lye is clean hydrogen source. And Al2O3 can be collect for reuse again.
Many materials will transmutate in these conditions . Finding what turns into what is an endless battle for me.
All I can say is please if you do this, vent the gas as quick as possible while testing. Prolonged Al2O3 exposure will damage the lung tissue. Here is a shot on it and there is much more on the net about this.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:WxokboUEgjkJ:nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2891.pdf+is+Aluminum+Oxide+gas+poison&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us
Also make sure there is not a spec of salt or chlorine in the water or you will produce Aluminum chloride , very nasty stuff.
Aluminum Chloride reacts with WATER or STEAM to produce poisonous Hydrogen Chloride gas and heat
Just trying to help
IronHead
Thanks, IronHeads!
I use clean water, and aluminum.
But, I get your point.
Who knows, what elements in aluminum can be?
I think it can be maybe way to nuclear transformation too.
But rays are all around us, from space, and I don't use deuterium (but in can be in water).
Thanks again!
I would really like to see more on your studies and works . Maybe you can post some videos or pictures in the future?
Yes, I will put some pictures on my web: http://free-ri.htnet.hr/Branko/index.html (http://free-ri.htnet.hr/Branko/index.html)
Now, I work on solar energy (yesterday I collect more than 10 kWh of energy).
I need to finish this first.
Energy for home is my priority.
Second priority will be energy for car.
I only have some principles and must see what will be the best.
Aluminum is an element itself. Aluminum alloys like that of 6061 or T6 as it is called has many elements.
Aluminum (Al) 95.8 - 98.6%
Chromium (Cr) 0.04 - 0.35%
Copper (Cu) 0.15 - 0.40%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.8 - 1.2%
Manganese (Mn) 0.15% max
Silicon (Si) 2.8 - 3.8%
Zinc (Zn) 1.5% max
But here's what happens in a reactor.
If you pull off a negative electron from the "aluminum atom"or any other and do away with that electron (burn it off as heat) then that atom becomes unstable and will do anything it can to stabilize. So if there is another type of atom in the cell with missing electrons they can attract and combined. This will make a whole new substance.
This is what you are doing in a reactor, you are pulling electrons off of there atoms .This happens when you break the hydrogen oxygen bond.
Hydrogen with its positive charge is attracted to the negative side of you cell and oxygen attracted to the positive side of the cell because opposites attract . There electrons are now freed or liberated . If these negative electrons are not burned off they will recombined 2H2 O2 back to H20 or will bind to another chemical that has missing electrons the like. If there are no liberated electrons left in the water then atoms with missing electrons will start to bind to each other making new chemicals.
And guess what we are doing in a plasma cell that we are not doing in HHO electrolysis
cell. We are burning off electrons right away , not all but enough to start building new structures .Atoms can get there electrons from the power source but not when it is in the off position of the pulse.
This not only happens to the water ,it happens to every chemical in the water.
Learn it
IronHead
Yes, you are right...
But, that is (I think) more clean than electrolysis with NaOH or KOH. That impurity problem is in all system that I now. I only use clean water (destil) and clean aluminum (foil for eating purpose). And hydrogen can be make. Every standard battery is worst option. It can be good source for car in combination of Tesla's combustion engine.
I will build this someday, when I finish my home solar system.
But I keep in mind your point!
You have a very good idea and seem to be thinking in a safe way when it comes to the technology.
What I have posted above is for everyones understanding of what goes on in the process.
Good luck on the build as well as your other endeavors.
Keep Building
IronHead
Hello IH...
I like what you are doing here and have a few questions for you.
I have been looking into this lately and would like to use this method or a similar design for heating and hydrogen production if that is possible to do with a single unit.
However I am not sure I understand "the big picture" of it all.
I know squat about chemistry so I would need a system that has a known chemistry output or disposal means.
My initial thoughts are to build a combination recirculator unit where hydrogen can be sucked off and compressed at the same time heat is being circulated if that is possible.
Then automatically monitor reactor temperature as you are doing.
I was thinking about pulling the heat off with a stainless 1/4" ID condensor coil around the inside of the reaction chamber.
Using the same 120 volt system as you are for simplicity sake is an excellent idea.
A few things I do not entirely understand are:
Would distilled water and potasium be the ticket to achieve a stable chemical output?
Apparently it goes boom if it hits a boil?
Using this method would the gas from it reasonably pure hydrogen, I assume it would be both hydrogen and oxygen mixed together?
Is the exhaust hot enough that it is worth using that heat too?
Do you have any idea how many btu's it puts out? That is, is one unit roughly enough to heat say a 2000 sq ft home in the winter?
What do you think?
I've built it and it works great for a heater. I dont use any electrolyte, Just pure distilled water. Maintainence can be a pain if you let it get to hot, so a 180*f thermocouple or thermostat hooked to a variable speed grundfus pump. the kind used for radiant floor heat works well. As for output in BTUs i haven't calculated it. but it is far more efficient than your typical electric heater. Mine pulls 1.5 amps on full run and heats about 16 gal of water of 170F pretty quick. this i circulate to a bigger heat tank @52 gal and pump that into the floor loop 2000ft of 1/2'' Pex. at about 94*F it works quite well. as for the HHO make sure you vent it or condense it back to H2o or you'll have a headache you wont soon forget. Most of the HHO turns back into H2o because of the arc but there is a little left over when your cell needs maintained. Usally every 2-3 weeks. I'll have to snap a few pics huh? Moab.
Yes
what Moab said here is the way to do it.
Thanks!
Here is what I woudl like to do with this rig.
So it generates HH can that be separateed from the O using an hv anode and cathode in the venting process or will i need to build a secondary unit to get hydrogen for the car?
This is a fundamental drawing of what i want to build without all the safety devices and such. Does this all look reasonable to you all?
Thanks again for the info! Very helpful!
k
Build it !
keep us up to date on you progress ,and we will help along the way.
Here is a rod with a cheap ceramic sandblaster tip on , it works very well.
This is overunity , I just don't have time to prove it, nor do I wish to.
Maybe one of you guys will someday. I will soon release new info on how to pull the hot arc farther away from the tip.
Along the way I will be talking about the power of cavitation.
Great i will keep checking back!
I think I found something new with this cell . In involves close quarters encasement at the tip of the negative electrode . this holds more hydrogen in the close range that it needs to burn. I am working on this now as soon as i do a few test to see that it works like it has the first time I will post the info.
There may be a need for a swirl pump I will figure it soon.
I will also post the off the shelf part needed to make this upgrade.
Quote from: Moab on April 27, 2007, 07:38:26 PM
I dont use any electrolyte, Just pure distilled water.
Mine pulls 1.5 amps on full run and heats about 16 gal of water of 170F pretty quick.
Moab;
Ready fopr 20 questions? LOL
Do you use pure distilled because it is safer?
Is potassium Carbonate dangerous to breathe?
Do you know how much voltage you are using?
Are you heating exactly 16 gallons? and what is your starting temp?
I am trying to get a feeling for efficiency here because jln claims upwards of 1000 which would make this cheaper than oil to run. For the price I pay for natural gas it would have to be about 2.6:1 over unity to break even.
------------------------------------------
IH,
Do you have a thread or know anyone else who has a thread anywhere on using tungsten and stainless to generete HHO? i plan on building this reactor too and am keeping a close eye on what you are doing here.
Unfortunately since I had some of the stuff laying around the shop I threw together some parrellel stainless and tungsten with the thought of trying HHO because it was cheap, simple, and that video you made rocked my world! LOL, and stainless plates are upwards of 200 bucks for me to make compared to the $3.50 that i have invested in this version.
I do not wish to interupt either thread with my questions if you do not wish to entertain them. Of course if you are willing to entertain them I could always start a new thread so not to interupt this one or the stainless version. or am i sort of on my own with this one?
Plasma reactor
This is not a good way to make HHO as most of the gas is burned in the reactor.
HHO cell
I do not have a thread on using tungsten in an HHO cell yet. Just build it and use what you learn from other threads . I am covering alot about how to do this. Tungsten is just a material and will work using the same principles as with the SS stuff.
Hey did you see the kid on utube that lights a match over boiling water sticks a jar over the top and gets plasma in his microwave? It looks sweet not sure how useful it is tho.
i was thinking about that too, that is what you said about swirl pump so i am holding off on buying the stainless filter for a bit. another thing that might work well is a stanless conveyor belt almost liek a heavy screeen.
Its sort of a perplexing problem because if you want to contain the hydrogen and at the same time not eat the rod that sort of contradicts each other. what i mean is that a person could circulate the water with a pump and that would help cool the tip but it seems like it would also disturb the hydrogen flow so i am thinking there is a rather narrow limit as to how far one can go with it. cooing and crowding the plasma at the same time that is.
i will be interested in hearing how this works out and sort of putting mine on the back burner to see your results.
One question however does it matter if the circulating pump is iron and if i use a radiator for forced air heating rather than hydronic?
Iron pump will work if there are no additives to the water ,like KOH ,Sodium based and so on .Baking soda seems to be ok with a byproduct of CO and CO2.
Also you might think about a small hydrogen burner to increase the efficiency .A one way valve to orifice injecting HHO into a mesh burner. Does not take much as these temps get very high. If you use baking soda the co and co2 will slow the burn of the HHO to produce a more even heating effect.A cpu water cooling block would work well for this.
Radiator is fine as that is what I started with an ran a room style heater for many months .
This was a ,b r a s s type heater core radiator with a couple of high speed 120mm PC fans
LOL this server will not let me type the word B R A S S
Quote from: IronHead on June 01, 2007, 09:51:49 AM
Iron pump will work if there are no additives to the water ,like KOH ,Sodium based and so on .Baking soda seems to be ok with a byproduct of CO and CO2.
Also you might think about a small hydrogen burner to increase the efficiency .A one way valve to orifice injecting HHO into a mesh burner. Does not take much as these temps get very high. If you use baking soda the co and co2 will slow the burn of the HHO to produce a more even heating effect.A cpu water cooling block would work well for this.
Thanks... maybe the best thing to do then is just to get a plastic washing machine centrifigal pump and use that on the cold side. i was thinking about using a cheap walmar 120 vac box fan and a car radiatoe. Pipe it through the hot water heater to heat my water then throught the radiator to heat he house. Unfortunately i have no idea how much or how big to make it to heat the whole house.
Someone said heating 15 gallons in 15 minutes which seems like it would keep 1800 sq ft house warm even in the coldest winter days but i have no data to know this.
Does the size of the tungsten matter? i can also get 3/16 rods maybe last longer?
If my guesstimates are correct i would have to get roughly a COP of 3 or greater to break even with the cost of natural gas heat.
So you are suggesting burning the fumes then? i suppose that would be safe to vent then too...
Another thinf that i seen on naudins site is that he has a small capacitor, enough to let high frequency through and he demonstrates how he is lighting a 5 watt bulb with no additional energy drain from the power supply.
It does not show it directly but i think he is running it between the tungsten and the stainless.
Ok so thats whats on my mind for now :)
You will have to experiment with this. It is not about how fast you can heat something but more about how fast you can recover once heat is lost or transfered from heater to air.The lower the temp when it comes back the harder it is to heat it back up.For the room heater no pump was used . I built the thing like a heatpipe. Put the radiator above the source and it will convect creating a pump like effect.
If you do this you will have to deal with venting gases and still keep positive flow as you would in any system like this .I think supplemental heating is what you will end up with. Build one reactor to start you can always build more and stack them . It is a much better idea than have one huge system. Make it modular.
I would burn the HHO off whether you use this excess or not. Dumping lots of Hydrogen into the air does nothing to solve our pollution problem in the upper atmosphere .
There is another way as well you can build the cell so that the Hydrogen and oxygen are seperated then bleed of the oxygen and store the hydrogen for other use. DO NOT STORE Hydrogen and Oxygen together as it is explosive.
Hydrogen with out air or oxygen will not burn.
3/16 rod is fine if its all you have you will just need to adjust it more often.
Just build it now and it will teach you, start small
IronHead
There is a welding supply just a few blocks from me and i can get 3/16, 1/8, 1/16 and one that is like a wire and i am not sure which one would be best. i can get teflon any size and have found a mfg for pourable pottable ceramic that is supposed to hold up to around 2700 degrees that i can mold over the end. only think i dont like is that they require a 100 dollar min order enough to last me 5 lifetimes LOL
I think i would rather burn the hydrogen to get max efficiency out of it and i am pondering the idea of using it to run a tesla turbine and a generator possibly by boiling wood alcohol which which i chose because it boils at 150 degrees which is the best operating temperature for this unit apparently, then have a cooling system for the wood alchohol that cools just below it boiling temp.
Finally the last stage would be heating the house
So i have big plans if it can work andif i can get a decent COP out of it. but then maybe i am stretching things a bit. unfortunately i dont really know what i am doing on this lol
Interesting , So you would just need some copper tubing coiled up with the reactor water flowing through it at lets say 160*.Then this would be submersed in the alcohol. You should not need a pump for that at all.
This also would be a very good system as far as heat recovery as the return water will be good and hot.
Tungsten .Get the largest Green tip ones you can find
Considering the shape of the plasma arc, might it be possible to fashion an elliptical spheriod reaction zone (egg-shaped) outa this stuff here
http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/product/~category_id=TWPCAT_SS_Fine/~product_id=100X100T0045W48T
That way the arc would be greater in magnitude, owing to the more consistent distance to the outer field.
I got the sandblast tip but it's 5/32" hole; is that 1/64" gap gonna jump up and bite me? Using 1/8 green tip rod when I get it. Ain't found any cylindrical screens around these parts yet.
I'd have to buy 12 sq ft of that there screen, so I'll make elliptiod reaction chambers for anyone who wants to pay the freight. "Turtle Hydrogen reactor parts division" gots an earthy ring to it, no?
BTW,a lawn mower mishap today led me to a great bulkhead fitting for yer circulator plumbing! I ran over my sprayer boom and busted the spray nozzle holder/strainer base. A trip to the tractor store found replacements for $3 USD a pair. With another nut and a couple rubber washers, these oughta go nicely in the side of the tank to let cooling medium come and go. Testing to come.
Keith
Found the link for the ceramic potting cement:
Like i said tho it is 100 min order nice temps on them tho.
http://www.associatedceramics.com/insulators.htm
Quote from: keithturtle on June 04, 2007, 10:45:54 PM
Considering the shape of the plasma arc, might it be possible to fashion an elliptical spheriod reaction zone (egg-shaped)
i was wondering the same thing, and pondering the feasibility of slowly circulating water downward around the tungsten to both help kool the tip and actually pull the plasma away from the tip just a very little bit if that would not both help kool and create an elliptical patter too?
Paint store for the screen. Made by Kraco sprayer equipment I posted this back on page one. Sherwinn Williams and Duron stores both have these.
I was working on a similar idea of moving the water through a Tungsten tube instead of solid rod. At the end of the rod I am using a 1/2" ceramic dish to flow the water into causing a curling eddy effect. At first I had a hard time maintaining an arc . but I think I can make it all work out.
I have not been able to work on it but will soon as I can.
I'm headed to SW paint today. In light of the gap around the rod in the ceramic, could water be pumped in that way? Lots of projects running simultaneously, and still setting up the lab to boot. Man, I'm meeting myself coming back...
Wishing I'd act more like a turtle...
Keith
Sure , try it.
It's a very good idea
@kokomoj0;
I bought the green tip rod at my local Linde supplier-one fer <$6.00 USD. If you cain't get a deal near you lemme know and I'll mail you one.
On that ceramic, I have in my hand a machined piece of 304 stainless, used as a water sampling strainer component. It has a 5/16" bore, and ~6/32 set screws in the side. Man, it oughta be perfect to pour some ceramic in that thang fer the rod... gotta git me some liquid rock...
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on June 10, 2007, 12:35:47 AM
@kokomoj0;
I bought the green tip rod at my local Linde supplier-one fer <$6.00 USD. If you cain't get a deal near you lemme know and I'll mail you one.
On that ceramic, I have in my hand a machined piece of 304 stainless, used as a water sampling strainer component. It has a 5/16" bore, and ~6/32 set screws in the side. Man, it oughta be perfect to pour some ceramic in that thang fer the rod... gotta git me some liquid rock...
Turtle
the biggest green tip rod i can get is like 5/16ths, not sure bigger is better but one would think it would last longer between adjustments.
i am also tossing around the feasability of putting a ceramic cooling jacket around the outside to slowly force water around it to help with the longevity and possibly shape the burn. with the liquid rock that now becomes a possibility me thinks.
Is the tungsten rod directly in the water? the frenchman atomized the hydrogen covered with a water jacket. Help with the confusion. Thanks.
@Robb, kokomoj0 is attacking this from the direction of a source of heat I believe, with the gas output being an added benefit.
I've been toying with retro-fitting my Weil-Mcclain boiler myself, since I've got some nice beefy Transformers out of rack mountable UPS's.
-rapttor
rapttor:
The frenchman I referred to was the scientist Naudin. You still didn't make it clear. Is the tungsten directly surrounded by water or is it in a closed hydrogen cannister like Naudin.
My bad Robb, Jean-louis yes he's a very under-rated man, very smart & brilliant person. The water is in direct contact with the Tungsten Electrode, I want to say the best scenario being one is fully submerged, the other is only 1/2 inch or so under the water's surface.
I'll check my notes to verify...
sorry bout' the half -assed previous reply
-rapttor
Thanks much for the clarification. Remarkable proof of the nature of atomic hydrogen
I am as much interesting in learning about radio frequency water disassociation...an engineer posted "salt water fire" on youtube, using equipment intended to cure cancer.
Burning socalled brownsgas in a nearly closed container will also produce a plasma!
That would be John Kanzius, yeah I'm familiar with the video's you are reffering to. IronHead the originator of this thread has done similar work but found a sweet-spot in liberating the HHO from h2O, which when you hit the critical point, he found out first hand just how much power & energy is really in Water. Stick with us... we'll get there at some point down the road, when we are all on the same page as far as understanding the process better.
Just from I.H.'s work I've gained a whole new respect for the "electrolysis" process.
-rapttor
Thanks for the insight. I agree with the potential of water!
Question...is the water under pressure? or just being circulated by a pump.
I didn't understand that IronHead was liberating so much hho but rather after the heated water. Seems he just lets the hho gas into the atmosphere. Is this a great way to make hho?
Maybe someone should offer a "kit", which includes power supply, rods, etc and sell with 100% markup, which is fine with me, since I hate shopping. Instructions are a nice inclusion too :) Ironhead should be a partner....Need to get alot of these out there so people will begin to believe it works.
Quote from: Robb077 on June 14, 2007, 11:54:00 AM
Thanks for the insight. I agree with the potential of water!
Question...is the water under pressure? or just being circulated by a pump.
I didn't understand that IronHead was liberating so much hho but rather after the heated water. Seems he just lets the hho gas into the atmosphere. Is this a great way to make hho?
This is not a good way at all to make HHO . This is a low current heater.
Most of the HHO is burned in the plasma field converting the HHO back to H2O
If you condense the steam or vapor as well this system uses as you might guess very little water.Some HHO will escape the plasma cell it is a good idea to burn this off and use its heat as well in your design.
If you really want this thing to rip then try and get the rod to vibrate at 42khz using whatever means possible.
IronHead
Ironhead:
Thanks. Great concept for low priced heating! Working to "do it"
Regarding the rod and screen, the tip of the rod is in the screen? or projecting out the end....maybe centered would be my guess. If you have a picture, that would be great too. How do you coat with ceramic? tubing?
Basic plasma cell. Ceramic tubing over Tungsten is the best way to go for shielding.
Note if you are using house power RF choke the AC line. The screen in the cell will also absorb some RF.
Great picture. What are you using to pulse the dc? Have a price on the parts without tubing and radiator?
Maybe a fish tank will work for the water tank.
50/50 square wave . it will respond to just about any wave form. Just use something you can sweep in real time to tune it.
Quote from: Robb077 on June 15, 2007, 03:41:59 PM
Great picture. What are you using to pulse the dc? Have a price on the parts without tubing and radiator?
Maybe a fish tank will work for the water tank.
DONOT use a fish tank. the glue will melt and youll have a mess. If you want to watch the reaction use a glass jar and run it in small burst to see what you are doing. after you have it tuned your going to need some stainless tubeing I used 5'' 188wall. This keeps all the RF inside the cell and also makes things safer from the stand point of exess heat. I will be posting pics of the thing in a few days. I need another digital camera.
Happy Building :D
Ironhead:
The recent picture of the stainless steel mess does not look like the earlier posted pics of the paint sprayer tube. What's the difference?
This pic is a rendering so you can see where things go . The mesh is bigger so you can see the rod is all.This is basic . I am sorry I can not spec this out for you. Just do some experimenting you will find the way starting with this basic setup.
Ironhead:
Thanks for the great rendering. How do you get 30 amps from standard 110 outlet? Confused on how to do this since most circuit breakers are 15-20 amps.
30amps was a cold start up in this specific cell, once the arc is archived the amps will drop rapidly . Cold was in 40F water in the winter.I can not say if you cell will start at 30 or 10 amps you have to experiment with this
. If you can not supply start up amps as High as your cell requires then pre heat the water.
Just build it
thanks. Yep, just build it...working on this trying to get my electrical engineer friend to help, since I don't know much about power supplies, square waves, sine waves or how to tell the difference...not trained on ocilliscopes at all. Just know the idea is workable and you are very practical in your application of the technnology.
Also as Moab has stated do not use glue of any kind in this cell.
Everything must be hard built and hard wired. Don't put anything in this cell
other than described . A Gummybear could transmute into the most deadly poison known to man. Well thats a stretch but you get what I am saying.
We just dont know enough about what turns into what in a cell like this
Ironhead:
Great info. You know where you can get ceramic tubing with 1/8 in inside diameter?
what model for the electrical components? Exact model numbers or specifications on what is needed to "do it". Just an AC rectifier or full DC power supply with all the controls? Sounds like there should be some more detail so I can go to the store and give them a parts list. Maybe from Granger? Maybe you need to be an electrical engineer to know all this clearly.
Sandblaster tip works cover the rest with Teflon tubing. , and just start out with a full bridge rectifier , wire it up and plug the thing right into the 115ac wall .
Thanks. This is more difficult than you might think for non electrical engineers. Not sure where to buy teflon tubing. Looked up full bridge rectifier on google and didn't get anything to look at specifically. Couldn't really find one for sale. Can you provide more clarity for the layperson? Its not so simple without a technical background.
Quote from: Robb077 on June 16, 2007, 05:29:29 PM
Ironhead:
Great info. You know where you can get ceramic tubing with 1/8 in inside diameter?
what model for the electrical components? Exact model numbers or specifications on what is needed to "do it". Just an AC rectifier or full DC power supply with all the controls? Sounds like there should be some more detail so I can go to the store and give them a parts list. Maybe from Granger? Maybe you need to be an electrical engineer to know all this clearly.
here is another way.
Go to the hobby store and get some modleing clay. the kind used for makeing ciramic pots and such. .. Now mix the stuff with water untill its like pudding. Dip the tungston rod in it and let it dry. Do this untill it is about 3/8- 1/2 thick. And let it dry completely. Now this is important. you MUST wait untill the wife is NOT in the house for at least 3 hours.. Take your coated rod and put it in the oven and bake it at the highest setting. Give it at least 2 hrs. while this is bakeing build a small kiln from firebricks. You can get them from a hardware store. Next youll need a Mappgass toarch. and a full can of mappgas. preheat the kiln untill its cherry red. time it with the 2 hrs the wife is away..Now the kiln is hotter than the hinges of haities get the rod and gentily slide it in your homade kiln. dont let the flame from the mappgas-torch blast directly on the rod. This takes a few hours and the wife gets real upset if she catches you messing around with the oven this way. Also you should not leave the kiln until the mappgas is gone. get some beer this takes the edge off the waiteing. And makes the ear beating your gonna take easyier when wify gets home. Cause you know damn well she will know you have been messing around in the kitchen.
Shorter version.
No doubt there is a ciramics class, or you know someone who knows someone who fires ciramics. in your town..Dip the rod like i said earlier and let dry. The class will be happy to fire it for you.
(Edit,) you might ask what happens to the Ciramic when the tungston burns away?
Well if you build your cell so the flowing water travels downawrd the nasty stuff falls to the bottom and is out of the way. You will be takeing it apart about every 10-14 days if you plan on useing this as a heat source, So build accordingly. Also when you get the tungston it comes in a 10 pack. may as well coat them all at the same time. you'll need them.
BTW @Robb077 I'm no EE. i just build things. And this was one of the more fun builds i did in 2006. And it works really well.
Build it Moab.
Robb
A fullwave bridge can be had for 9-10 bucks Youll need a 35 amp to start with. Radio shack. Or Ebay. i seen a box of 50. 25 amp bridges for 15 Usd on flea bay. At first this isnt a hard build. Like all things the tuneing can be a bear. Moab
Lets build it
Moab:
Great explanation and detail. Yes, I know places to fire ceramics. Ok, lets say you buy a full wave 25 amp bridge. Might use hot water to help get it started like IronHead suggested, requiring less amperage.
How do you tune the bridge to get the required frequency? Not at all familiar with this. They come with a dial? You need an osillocope?
Well first what are your intentions for this devise? if your going to use it as a heater youll need more stuff.
A fullwave Bridge simply turns 60Hz AC into 120Hz DC no tuneing requiord.
Ok a small list Because Ironhead alredy said he cant speck it out for you.
Fullwave bridge rec 25 amp or better ( To get you started )
A Varyac 50 amp (Nice to have but not needed for your first cell)
Some tungston (the greentip )
312 screen. 2''X4-6'' ( the stuff made for airless sprayers)
Some clip leads # 12 lizt 18'' long ( youll need a bunch like 4 or more later)
A 120V male wall plug. (Groung optional. A bridge only has 2 ~ inputs)
You can use any wall plug #12 wire or bigger
a 1/2 gallon glass jar with atleast a 4'' opening
put some clips on the wire from the plug on the end your gonna hook to your bridge. The little ~ on the bridge is whare the AC power goes in ~ means sign wave BTW.
Use an insolated block or somthing non conductive to hold the rod verticle in the jar so it DONT MOVE!
Place the 312 screen inside the jar centered. and put a cliplead on it to the +side of bridge. fill with hot water and place the T rod in side the screen centered. Hook that to the - side of bridge.. Now, the wall plug is on the two ~ and the +/- of the bridge is wired as i said to the rod and the screen. Now your redy to test.
I'm not fimilliar with your building ability. most of the guys on this forum are awesome builders. If your not, you may want to start smaller. Our Mr Ironhead builds far beyond the abilities of most people. (Trust me on that one) Also Be warned! this cell is not for the careless. Cool as it may be. Think before you start. There is no kit, No PDF, No How to. As IH said NO spek sheet. The above is as close as it gets. (so far) Moab.
Moab:
Good detail. Ok, so this will give you square waves? How do you tune it so you have square waves 50% 21 khz? IronHead's rendering showed a large rectifier too.
I built mine. But you can buy such a devise and use it for our little cell. The tuneing comes after you have a cell housing and a way to pump water through the cell and dissapate the heat. 50% is not the stadard Hz. there are things that come in to play for the final tuneing and opperation if the thing. Heck I'm still tuneing and tweeking. so to say you need 50-50 60-40 yadda-yadda Hz would be assumeing you have a cell built exactly the same.use the same water with the same minerial content. and have the same volume to heat, all of Which by the way will never happen. were not really doing HHO production here.. Now If your talking about a flip flop switch thats a whole bifferent ball game. the reson for the 50/50 flip is to prolong cell life. And in a sense i gess you could argue that it helps break down water. My earlire post will show proof of concept. For me that was enough. So I worked 14+hrs every day for nearly three weeks on the thing. Again I'm not sure what you want to do with it. See a Plasma ball? or build a heater. After builbing it there are some things I would do differently. and will add to the next one, My advise is wait for more input than mine before you start. Others have built it too. They will be along I'm sure. Moab
Thanks much Moab. I am after a heater. If it took you nearly a month full time it going to take til Christmas for most people part time. This is why I suggested more specs. Surely now that you "did it" you could reduce the steps down more precisely.
I started out the year looking into working on low voltage ....1.5 electrolysis of water and burning the gas in a ceramic vessel, with one small hole for vacuum, which will get hot and burn into a plasma also. The gas reaches over 5K C so the hydrogen will ionize. This takes 20 amps to start but will run on less.....but probably not 10 watts! You should build one of these, the directions are more precise.
Anyway, the tungsten plasma generator may be more efficient. There needs to be more explanation on the pulsating electronic scheme. If you had to start over, how much less than one month would it take?
Hey MOAB;
can you parallel bridge rectifiers? I've got 30 amp 1000V ones, enought to bank a few.
Also, can you build SCR's into a bridge? I've got a handful of those(bigguns) too, but would you need a circuit to fire 'em?
Wishing I'd have paid attention in class,
Turtle
Ironhead:
Can looking at a plasma without eye protection burn your retina? Just a consideration.
Quote from: Moab on June 16, 2007, 06:48:29 PM
Robb
A fullwave bridge can be had for 9-10 bucks Youll need a 35 amp to start with. Radio shack. Or Ebay. i seen a box of 50. 25 amp bridges for 15 Usd on flea bay. At first this isnt a hard build. Like all things the tuneing can be a bear. Moab
Lets build it
Hi Moab....
What makes tuning so difficult? The changes with volume heat and temp ect or just the unit itself?
Does this unit work better with pulsed freq from fets than rectified line power?
Robb077
No , many studies have been done to show that there is no harmful spectrum of light or radiation coming from a plasma cell
Ironhead:
Thanks for the input. Finally getting some interest from an electrical engineer friend. He keeps himself so broke he went to buy bottled LP to keep his gas water heater going since they turned off the gas again. So 5000 watts of electrical heat equivalent for 15 watts got him really interested. LOL
robb077;
Don't get 'im too excited with those numbers... more like 5000 watts heat for 500 watts input, 10:1 return, if I read the first part right
Turtle
How long would it take to build it?
Well that depends on the material you have on hand. I suppose if you had every thing, you could assemble it in 1 day. That wound be a dream build tho.
Looking for a heater.
Ok your gonna need everything from the last page "Small list". And a PWM. Bokoo fittings a gas volume controll a grundfus 3-12Gpm creculation pump. And If you cant weld stainless we'll have to find another way of building your reactor. Somthing off the shelf and cheep. Lemmy see we are going to need atleast 4'' Dia 12'' long and atleast 1/8'' thick and threaded.
Then we gonna some 4'' Npt plugs. and everything gotta be stainless.
Next if you could find a used radiator out of a car. Its going to need to be clean. Maybe 2.
Ok. next i used a fiberglass heater tank from a RV. It holds 16 gal and is redy built to serve for hot water up to 200 F. This is the water i run throughn the reactor and then i use an aluminium heat excanger. Then i recirc the 16 gal to a 52gal tank then i circulate that into 2000' of Pex. Getting ahead of myself again
Lets start with the cell. What can you find.
Koko. The tuneing is different every time you change rods/screen/or add water. If you dont stay with it and tune it as it heats and recharges She will spit and spudder. maybe even not spark up at all. so after a change out i gotta sit on top of it and watch as she comes back up to temp. Time consumeing. Not really complicated.
Speaking of heat. Your gonna need a limit switch too, I used one thats made for a boiler. Its made by Reem and cost about 10.00 if i remember. and it must have both hi and low cutoff limit. 100-210 degrees F. Google boiler heating, look at the pics and schems. replace the firebox with our little reactor. That is the best way i can explain it with out showing you Pics. Which i will do later. remenber you can scale this bugger way-way up if you wanted to..Back to work for a bit,, Moab.
Est cost of build
1 Grundfus pump. 60.00
1 fiberglass H-W, Rv tank 25.00 (Salvage yard)
1 4''X18" stainless nippel 188wall 32.00
1 limit switch 10.00
1 DC Pwm. 50amp 1 Khz 600 Khz Built it so i dontknow Maybe 50.00?
Misc 1'' stainless fittings about 45.00
312. 2''X4'' screen 4 Pak 16.00
1 45 amp Bridge. Out of the junk box 10.00 ?
Misc copper for plumbing 60.00 maybe
Tungston I used 1/4'' 22.00 10 pak
Misc magnetic chokes.Again i built them Maybe 5.00?
Heat exchanger Ebay 35.00 use a radiator for forced air heat
52 gallon H-W tank You dont need it if you dont do the floor heat
4 3/4''flow controll valves 32.00
Gas volume controll 7.00
1/4'' nylon hose for venting gas 5.00
So you can see there is a good bit to the build. if your going to do it, gather up all the stuff youre going to need. I'm sure i missed some things. Its cheaper than building a conventional boiler. But then again I didnt do it beacuse its cheap. what i learned from the build is priceless. If you go in to it whith that attitude you cant loose. ;)
Since youre not doing the radient floor heat your build will be a little different, But not much. happy build planing. 8) Moab.
Thanks Moab for taking this thread, I just don't have the time.
Again thank you.
IronHead
You're welcome Buddy.. Just dont let me make any stupid mistakes. :o. LOL
Koko. On the pulsed vrs rectifyied.. From what i see the rec seems to spark up better. So what i do is let it run on the DC 120hz then after every thing is heated up. I switch to the PWM. This i find works well and also seems to make the screen and rod last longer. The freq +-+-+-Flipped and is between 12 and 27 Khz. It is always different after a change out, like i said. So you need to tune it every time. So they both work. but after she heats up the SQ wave is the way to go for the 14 day run. I'm still learning as i go. So dont think me an expert. :) Just a builder.
The more you work with this cell the more it will teach you. In the long run it will be simplified as it will show you in time.
Moab:
Great detail....thanks for the post!
Moab:
I remember seeing Klein's hho welder torch applied to water....no heat generated...but on a brass ball, molten in three seconds....the atoms entered the brass! So I was wondering if the stainless screen was centered in an iron pipe sleeve(using a ceramic spacer maybe), whether it would suck in the hydrogen atoms from the plasma and turn red and heat a lot more water with less power. A possibility for experimentation.
Good god that is funny...it reminds me of the time when I was meltin lead from a old car battery on the stove in a old coffee can.....lol...lol...the wife walked in on my poor old ass...lol...can't stop laughing...lol...I though I was going to be devorced...lol......
Yes make sure the wife is not around when using the stove for other purpases than cookin FOOD...better yet send her on a trip to make sure the smoke clears and ya get a good chance to clean all the smoke out of the oven...
sorry for interuptin the thread...but that is too funny.
Kyle
Quote from: Moab on June 16, 2007, 06:43:01 PM
here is another way.
Go to the hobby store and get some modleing clay. the kind used for makeing ciramic pots and such. .. Now mix the stuff with water untill its like pudding. Dip the tungston rod in it and let it dry. Do this untill it is about 3/8- 1/2 thick. And let it dry completely. Now this is important.
you MUST wait untill the wife is NOT in the house for at least 3 hours.. Take your coated rod and put it in the oven and bake it at the highest setting. Give it at least 2 hrs. while this is bakeing build a small kiln from firebricks. You can get them from a hardware store. Next youll need a Mappgass toarch. and a full can of mappgas. preheat the kiln untill its cherry red. time it with the 2 hrs the wife is away..Now the kiln is hotter than the hinges of haities get the rod and gentily slide it in your homade kiln. dont let the flame from the mappgas-torch blast directly on the rod. This takes a few hours and the wife gets real upset if she catches you messing around with the oven this way. Also you should not leave the kiln until the mappgas is gone. get some beer this takes the edge off the waiteing. And makes the ear beating your gonna take easyier when wify gets home. Cause you know damn well she will know you have been messing around in the kitchen.
[/quote]
Moab:
Since you are second to Ironhead in having a working model, the pictures you were going to snap would be appreciated. Glad you have been so successful in your working model.
Still curious about whether a sleeve around the plasma, maybe even just ceramic, would absorb hydrogen atoms and provide more heat to the water than otherwise possible.
Moab:
If you can get a scroll expander (20 lbs, 1 kw of electric power ) to work with the plasma heater, you can power your house with a few of them.
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/479068/1674
Great link Robbo77.
Yes the thought has crossed my mind.
The heat is created when the HHO recombines back into H2o. I'm not sure how the cell would react with another forign plate or heat exchanger in the cell. I'm positive this will be tested in the future. ::)
Yo, Moab:
How critical is the gap from the electrode to the screen? If' you widen it, does that mean more volts?
I came up with something that will give me that egg-shaped burn area, but still lacking the tight-fitting electrode to ceramic union... 1/8" rod in 5/32" ceramic... has me apprehensive.
Turtle
Some parts
http://www.plasmatechnics.com/whatsnew.html
Do as you will
IronHead
Looks like big volts are available- I'd really like to make the small stuff work first- ya know, crawl before ya walk...
Still building
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on June 22, 2007, 06:43:18 PM
Yo, Moab:
How critical is the gap from the electrode to the screen? If' you widen it, does that mean more volts?
I came up with something that will give me that egg-shaped burn area, but still lacking the tight-fitting electrode to ceramic union... 1/8" rod in 5/32" ceramic... has me apprehensive.
Turtle
You want it in the center of the screen, .001 tolarence is not really nessassary. if your off by -1/32 you should be close enoug. It takes time for the cell to heat up like 20-30 minutes before i get a spark.
SO,
I've been looking at some peices of 316 stainless cut offs in the shop. 2-1/4'' od. Been thinking of trying one in place of the screen. Kind of like a 2-1/4 X3/4'' hoop. in the shape of a ventury. Insolated 316 1/4'' conductor. welded connection to the Hoop. My thought is to give the plasma a small pocket to ride in. ANd the cone shape of the ventury will also provide a close gap at one end and a wider one for when the cell heats up. Now when the flow is started to cool the cell the Ventury shaped cathode should help protect the plasma from blow out. I mean like blowing out a candle,, Blowout. Always thinking here.. Moab
I understand keithturtle . this post was not directed at you , It is however directed to a few that are in the background . They know who they are.
What post? I missed somthing.. And whos in the background? You will learn little, most of the good stuff is being sent E-mail P2P so step up :-* {_}]
0v3r10rD, >:( , 00ps I mean Moab ::)
I posted about some parts to someone that asked me to. Plasma stuff thats all.
I am not teaching any of this anywhere at the moment.
But I might. You want to go real time in 3d build and chat .
http://www.spiralmatrix.com/ download the browser (install now)
My world name is Energy. I have just begun to rebuild the world .
So there is little to see at the moment .But I am in there working on a few things if you want to chat abit.
OK, then... I'm aware of the differing alloys available in SS, chrome, nickel% and all that good stuff... but in this application is 316 a must? I've got it, gobs of it, but 18 ga don't bend so well, uh huh...
26 ga 304 is also on the shelf, and it bends and forms more easily. To fabricate that venturi plasma chamber would be a cakewalk outa the thinner stuff, but what would be lost for the process?
Poking along,
Turtle
i havnt built it yet turtle. Been bizzy with other stuff. The venturi was just an idea. and i will test my theory in time. for now the screen will work. But by all means if you are willing to build and test the idea. Be my guest.. :) Moab.
Thanks, Moab. Got it planned and ready to start pounding metal.
BTW, yer email here don't work... if you get a chance, send me a good address to the turtle.
Thanks, Keith
Quote from: keithturtle on June 23, 2007, 08:07:48 PM
OK, then... I'm aware of the differing alloys available in SS, chrome, nickel% and all that good stuff... but in this application is 316 a must? I've got it, gobs of it, but 18 ga don't bend so well, uh huh...
26 ga 304 is also on the shelf, and it bends and forms more easily. To fabricate that venturi plasma chamber would be a cakewalk outa the thinner stuff, but what would be lost for the process?
Poking along,
Turtle
304 works . The iron content is just higher
I just used a filter housing for the first one I did .Thats a mic stand glued to the bottom for weight . And used a copper tub like this ,wrapped around a piece of pvc to coil it up . then connect it up and submerse into a water container to heat the water and circulate the water through the floor heating system.
Thanks IronHead for the pic. I picked up an joiner planer to mill down the ruff edges on plastic, to make the vessels to size. Thanks fer all yer advice.
BTW, the chapps controller is making me scratch my head. More at HHO thread later
Turtle
If you have the money, the best way to go would be to use a hydronics heater from Granger....Dayton makes alot of them.
http://www.grainger.com/production/info/ww-granger.htm
The real problem is the electronics. Thought Chapps had the answer...maybe not.
First ,no one said the Chapp board would work for this plazma system at 100+ volts DC
The Chapp board does not support voltage this high.
Second from the specs here all you need is a rectifier ,wall plug and nothing else to supply this plasma reactor . Any frequencies you wish to put to the cell beyond the 120Hz you get from the rectifier is up to you to experiment with.
I will get into the flip circuit and pulser after we get some good solid burns. There is lots to build as a heater. most stuff is as simple as a crank. First thing is to get a bridge, some tungston,a screen, some kind of heat resistant vessel to put it in and spark that cell up. :D .M.
The Russian version....how plastic parts hold up I don't understand.
http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/book/1202.html
because the water in the container / reactor only goes to 180F the highest it can go is 212F without being under pressure. and if the plastic is rated at 300F then it holes up to the temp.
Ironhead:
The big dream is to have about 5 of the 1 amp plasma devices under pressure to power a home power station like this....need about 100k btu.
http://www.nemw.org/ECR022103revised.pdf
Oh right I gotcha . Might want to start small first to test what happens under pressure and if the whole concept you have even works.
Just my 2 cent
Found and ordered 4 of the 25 amp bridges to get the build started. Whether the whole thing works is dependent on whether you can get 17k btu (5 x 1000 watt electric heaters) from 15 watts of power, like you found with the plasma. So we will find out before too long. Not in a big hurry ....just before winter ;D
Here is an example of an HHO self -propagating plasma burner and heater. Need to read the entire patent to understand detail.
Moab:
You made this comment ealier:
"use a glass jar and run it in small burst to see what you are doing. after you have it tuned your going to need some stainless tubeing I used 5'' 188wall. This keeps all the RF inside the cell and also makes things safer from the stand point of exess heat"
What are you doing with the tubing and why do we need to be concerning about RF? You also said to choke the 110 ac for RF. Not understanding what the RF does.
Hey guys just for testing can I just use a 6010 or 6011 stick welding rod (instead of tungsten for now)...has the coating on it already?
try it
Quote from: Robb077 on July 01, 2007, 10:38:50 AM
Moab:
You made this comment ealier:
"use a glass jar and run it in small burst to see what you are doing. after you have it tuned your going to need some stainless tubeing I used 5'' 188wall. This keeps all the RF inside the cell and also makes things safer from the stand point of exess heat"
What are you doing with the tubing and why do we need to be concerning about RF? You also said to choke the 110 ac for RF. Not understanding what the RF does.
oK. use a jar untill you get a nice burn. run it in short runs because it will get real hot real quick.
Ok assumeing that we now have a nice burn. we're redy to start to use the heat.
This is where the SS tubeing comes in to play. It is the vessell that houses the plasma cell. and recirculates the water from the heat exchanger in a buigger 52 gallon tank.. Now the thing when its running will cause RF interfearence on TVs PCs radios and even speakers that are in cloce proximity to the cell. the thicker wall SS tubeing helps keep that RF emissions to a minimum and also keeps the noise down. ,,
Understand?.. :) Moab
Quote from: hkyle on July 01, 2007, 02:17:40 PM
Hey guys just for testing can I just use a 6010 or 6011 stick welding rod (instead of tungsten for now)...has the coating on it already?
the Flux on the welding rod will desolve, But hey it would be interesting to see how long it last.6010 rod 60000lbs PSI shear striength. 10 PPM carbon. Its Mild steel.
Moab:
Not so clear. Are you saying to use stainless steel tubing to circulate the water from the vessel to the heat exchanger (radiator maybe) ? The RF interference comes from the water being circulated? I would think the RF would come from the plasma and could not be reduced by using stainless steel tubing to carry the hot water.
How to choke the RF for non-electricians ;D
Quote from: Robb077 on July 02, 2007, 10:20:47 AM
How to choke the RF for non-electricians ;D
Good one Robb.. sometimes you have to include silly pic's for the layman to follow along at home...
-rapttor
Quote from: Robb077 on July 02, 2007, 10:20:47 AM
How to choke the RF for non-electricians ;D
The SS tubeing is the housing around the cell. It takes the place of the jar in the testing phase. water flows through this cell to a heat exchanger in a bigger tank. Yes Robb0 you are correct. The RF is from the spark (Plasma) It will mess with TV's and radios. ;) Moab.
PS Nice chickin
Moab:
Still confused Are you saying the "tubing" is now the vessel for the plasma? what is the diameter? What is the bottom made of?
What tubing are you using to pump the water?
hey guys does it need to be a stainless steel screen for the + side or can it be a ss plate or a pipe. I was at the farm this weekend and picked up a slick unit that will allow me to slide the Rod in / out without opening up the cell. Seems to work for that purpose but was thinking about the screen. Over at JLNlabs they don't have a screen surrounding the tungsten rod and it seemed to work. I was also thinking that maybe I could use a SS tube for the + side and have the rod in the middle of that, so the Tube would be replacing the screen and having the water flow right past or through the plasma.
what do you guys think?
I will post a pic when I get a chance.
kyle
Ironhead:
Since you helped Moab build his, maybe you can explain what the ss tubing is used for. Maybe a rendering would clear it up easily. ;D
Is Moab using a vessel made of ss or just the pipes to carry off the water to the pump? Sounds like he is not using glass.
Moab:
Maybe you have a big coil of stainless steel tubing around the plasma inside a 50 gallon fiberglass tank. Is this the setup?
OK. Thick-time.....
1=2X4 ss screen INSIDE 5''X 18''long SS tubeing capped top and bottom
2=Inside 2X4 screen 1/4'' tungston with 1/4 3/8'' exposed the oher is covered by ciramic.
Now the water AKA headed fluid circulates around the screen as it goes threw the 5" SS houseing, and to a heat exchanger in a bigger tank. YOU wont neen the bigger tank UNLESS you have radient floor heat.
Kyle. Thetube will work BUT you'll have to slow down the flow of Heateing fluid (Water) as it goes through the plasma chamber. because if the flow is too great the plasma cannot keep up to the flow and the plasma goes out,.( Counter productive) for a heat source. Then you'll be pulling high amps as the temp builds up to about 155F. where it can make a plasma ball again.
Furthermore..
Ironhead only pointed me in this direction. I built it on my own with out help of any kind.!(You guys got far more than i did when i started) If Mr. Ironhead has the time and the need to explain it again. Maybe he will do a rendering. I did it without one. ( I'm sure it could be built better Thats where you guys come in) lets bring on the ideas guys!! Ok?.
listen guys this is easyier than you are makeing it. Just get a bridge rectifyer and try to make a plasma ball in a jar. Youll see what needs to be done after that. And you wont need a rendering , Or anyone to tell you how to build it.
Untill the camera the wife bought from flea-bay gets here or untill Ironhead makes you a rendering. build it in your mind. its cheap andyou can change what ever you want on the fly.. Just my .02 ;) Moab. :)
Moab:
Thanks alot for the detail and about over circulating the water. Guess you can't see your plasma at all,(maybe a plexiglass top).. being covering top and bottom. Ok, proceeding to put the parts together in one week or so for a first burn.
Guess your pump must run all the time or the 5 x 18 would heat up real quick I would think. Anyway, nice to know what works for low wattage.
Thanks much.
Robb0'
I can tell when the plasma is sparking. I have a lexon 1'' plug hear the bottom of the cell in the 5'' stainless houseing.
the recirc pump only runs when the temp gets to about 170 or so the limit setting is near 200. on the high end and off again under 150. I use about or near because these switched are only that accurate..
Yes when its running the first stage to the heat exchanger runs almost the whole time the cell is "Sparked up" it dont take long for the 16 gal of water to cool down.
on the secondary recirc the limit is set to 70 on the low end and 93 or so onthe high end. If the secondary temp is at 80 or higher the plasma cell wont run untill its 70 or lower.
This gets us in to the boiler apect of the cell and is really a known science for the application that i am doing here. for you guys that are going to use a forced air heat through a heater core of some kind your limits will be higher of course. Probably 155 on the low end and no more than 200 on the high. its going to depend on how much fluid you plan on keeping at this temp. and for howlong of a run you can manage before the celll gets burned. this would bring us back to tuneing, short runs and lots of cooldown time for the cell. so you can make the cell last as long as possible between maintainance. you will be doing maintainance. its the nature of this beast.. sorry. Moab
Great detail helps understanding!
Sounds like your cell can start and stop on its own without adjusting all the time. Nice. I was thinking at first it ran all the time, but now see it can turn off and start again without human intervention.
Nice setup!
For those without a heat pump setup, an alternative to a radiator
Moab needs to advise best size holding tank ;D
Yes! you are corect-a-mundo. Sir Robb077. It is limited by switches. in all 4 directions. Primary (Cell 16 gal upper and lower, Thats 2) And secondary heat to floor about 52 gal, give or take a few. Upper and lower, thats 2 more.. :D ya see simple aint it? ,Its just an HHO plasma electrollisys boiler. thats all. nothin more. Moab.
seems a bit expensive for a radiator Robb. maybe a trip to the salvage yard and then to a carwash to clean a vehicle radiator. a nice anuminium rad with a higer exchange rate would do the job, and cost much less too. Just an idea tho. ;) and the fan is alredy equipped on some of the toyota rads ive seen. even has a thermostst built in some. Hmm, nice :)
Yep, a radiator does sound better...just build a nice vented cage for the living room :)
So, if the weather is 30 degree outside in a 2,000 ft house, is the plasma burning 70% of the time at 90 watts to keep it at 50? Just curious of your estimation on what to expect.
I meant "to keep it at 70", not 50
What is this ? Robb077 something like you have been talking about?
Claim is 4000 times output
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Q9gggJ3XA&mode
" Professor Kanarev has shown a new form of electrochemistry which can generate much more Hydrogen than conventional electrolysis ever could. He claims at least 10 times but his data suggests more like 4,000 times more Hydrogen than the Wh input would predict. He also has measured very significant Hydrogen generation when his cell is not powered and mentions Foam as is accepted in a stage 3 Joe cell." -- Congress:Member:Greg Watson (May 4, 2006) more info:http://peswiki.com/index.php/Direct"
Ironhead:
Yea, that was the picture of the electrolitic reactor I posted once and I referred to being made out of acrylic plastic parts.
Here is more on it. Uses metal parts of titanium. He has a big web presence.
I think the Korean idea is more user friendly with no metal parts to wear out in the plasma.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Kanarev_Electrolysis
Ironhead:
I've had some correspondence with the Russian Professor and he liked the ideas of tom beardon and the atomic attraction of photons from the ether. sent me three documents that basically said the same thing!!
This is what I should have continued working in. I just put it on the back burner.
This is fantastic stuff and I don't say that often . I will continue to search more info.
I think I have enough in my head to at least start this build .Lots to do.
I don't know a whole lot about different clays . I am a fair sculptor have no idea on types of clay.
Any suggestions on the clay type I might use ?
There s a small shop down the road that can fire pieces for me.
Ironhead:
Good news. I hope you go the way of burning hho in a container by itself and do the electrolysis separately. I can post some pictures of some ideas for a burner, with water pipe imbedded. this could power a house in the future....truly fantastic I agree.
The Russian was making heat, not hydrogen and the results are no better than your cold fussion video using the tungsten. You have convinced me that the hydrogen plasma energy is real.
Ok bring it on lets do this!
The Korean was using aluminum oxide. It can withstand up to 2,000 C. I read that magnesium oxide can handle 3,000 C. I just as well get away from copying the Korean too closely. I have found a source for the clays on the internet I can post soon, together with their properties.
I don't think the interior of the vessel needs to be the same at all, just point the hho on some ceramic and get it hot enough for the hho to ionize, that's all.
Very good
This thread is no longer about replicating my old Plasma Cell ,we going to do some new far more intense stuff here.
Robb077 being the most informed on this process. We can do this it seems so easy.
Hoping a few more will join in on this new build.
Ironhead:
Ok, here are the properties of ceramics....melting points, etc. They are fairly cheap to buy.
http://matse1.mse.uiuc.edu/ceramics/prin.html
Located material: Morgan Advanced Ceramics
http://www.morganadvancedceramics.com/materials/index.htm
Magnesium looks best.
Ok, when the hho goes into the container, it has to get something hot and at the same time, work to turn the water from the hho back into vapor at first. So just some ceramic part to get red hot that also heats the water drippings back up to vapor and eventual ions. maybe it can be pushed out of the way once the plasma forms.
not too complicated -I don't think all those interior parts are necessary. Just need a way to increase the temperature around 1500 C.
Probably just like the tungsten....takes 30 minutes or so to get going well.
the vent hole is probably the most important thing.
Actually, I was thinking you could have permanent magnets twirling around the outside making the plasma twirl inside. all those parts would be in the way.
Here is a good article about the technology Kanarev found very interesting and confirmed by his research.
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/a_h%20reaction.htm
Perm magnetic rotation or .... look at the specs here before you judge .This is a 400 watt system and would aid in heat stability as well as magnetic rotation maybe ,just an idea :)
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html
Very Interesting. Even less power might do the job. I think making the ionized electrons swirl around may help the plasma in stability also. Just hope the vessel concept is as efficient as the tugsten....sounds like it could be.
Here's a comment about Prof. Kanarev
http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~malovic/muse/kanarev.html
A comment on hho plasma
When we consider water is from an icy comet that was once a solar flare that left the gravitational orbit of the sun, it is not surprising that hho can burn to temperatures of the surface of the sun....its the same thing. It should also not be surprising that it can operate on less input than it produces, otherwise the sun would go out!!
but the Suns process has to do with extremely high gravity and an extremely hot core where the fusion reaction takes place , something like billions of degrees.
I am not sure this fits this process or maybe it does at the surface .
You are correct. Just sounded good for a possible surface burn. So at over say 1500 C the hho can no longer implode, so it just keeps on burning, therefore the flame extensions many times over.
If this process works as well as the tungsten, the induction concept could help maintain the plasma if the heat were to be drawn off by hot water or steaming. I'm sure there is a temperature range that must be maintained just like the tungsten setup or the plasma will go out. The induction is electrical and immediate so it could be computer controlled easily.
OK, feller plasma-heads... the Turtle has his very first plasma cell together. I plugged it in and got gas offa the whisk and the tip. Didn't run it fer long, <5 min. Didn't chek fer current yet, but the breaker held so it was under 20 amps.
Anyhow, got some good pics of the setup and will spend a great deal of time with it in a few days. Lots of stuff going on jes now, but I'll post pics and results soon.
I used a rather unorthodox approach (but who can establish orthodoxy in this nascent technology!?!) with a cool spiral egg whisk made outa 316 stainless wrapped with a pot scrubber. If it don't work I got some 316 screen to make a cylinder with as well.
I'm into it, gents!
Turtle
Turtle. thats an awesome set up.maybe let her perk a bit more. whats the bridge ya got hooked? and how much H2O do ya have in the cell. ya know its gonna take some chargeing to get her to spark up. it sounds good. id just let her run for a bit and see what happins. glad to see others diong it,, :), Moab
Moab:
Got the 25 amp bridges in so should have a first burn by end of next week.
Thanks for all the info!
A whole lotta pond scum... It got hot in about 3 hours, but never even got close to an arc. Soooo, I grabs the turkey baster and injects some 2 N NaOH into the zone. Amps went up to 2, and jes got warmer quicker. Shut it down at 175'F.
I reckon the field is too large, and elliptical zone ain't helpin' none, neither. Got ahold of some perf stainless and will fashion a 1" cylinder for the zone. Hope to do that later sat.
No time to bask,
Turtle
Ironhead:
Will be interested to see some ideas for a vessel.
My concept is that you don't need "bricks" on the interior. Just something to heat up and cause ionization. I originally thought of having a 2 inch iron pipe extending down into a round vessel covered with ceramic. This could work as a flash boiler or hot water heater. Also, your induction idea would work great with the iron. Just point the hho at the ceramic ball encasing the iron pipe. This should turn red hot and heat the vessel above 1500 c, causing plasma formation.
Just some thoughts.
I am thinking along the same lines . Now I just have to make the coating ,waiting on materials . The induction system is already built and will bring a high carbon A513 steel pipe to right around 1500F
Great. Maybe you don't need a kiln to fire it. Just a good firm shape and let the hho gas do the firing. 1500 c is alot of heat from the induction device.
I was thinking of something like a spoon shape with the handle bent up in front of the hho inlet (maybe sandblaster tip) and the spoon itself catching the water drippings to heat back up into hho. You will want a hot surface under the flame at first before the plasma takes over to keep it all in motion.
--another potential....have a small pipe through the plasma converting water to hho and separate the oxygen by magnetic spinoff to have hydrogen. Depends on the stable temperature possible.
Here is the deep dish I did a rendering of , backward from you idea . Ceramic inside and Steel outside .Just a quicky for concept . I am still thinking this steel in time will melt .
Nice rendering...great talent to have.
Turtle first said the integrity of the parts was questionable on the patented model.
The iron plate for the bottom was for heating the water dropping from the flame at first. However, it will not hold up at 2000 C or above.
I think the steel should be in the inside used for the purpose of steaming water or heating water....with fresh water being injected as possibly as fast as the plasm can be maintained....can't cool it too much. With fresh water injections, I would not think it could melt down even at high temperatures. The induction system could regulate it all.
To run a 3 kw power plant, you will need to steam about 250 lb of water/hour or about 30 gallons. This would be 1/2 gallon of steam a minute....might be possible with the plasma, plus the induction. The iron pipe on the inside would be injected with water to the greatest extent possible without extinguishing the plasma. At first, the iron pipe could be helpful to pull in the induction heat to get it started.
Of course, for a heater only, the steel on the outside should only reach 500 F from the plasma without induction.
I would imagine the model had available 1000 liters of gas/hour to start. This is a large vessel however.
Claiming the heat is the easy part . Building the plasma reactor is the hard part and must be done first . I put the steel on the outside to keep heat on the ceramic so it can heat easy . the outside steel will get very hot holding heat inside the ceramic. This lets the reaction start at a high temp and help maintain it, I think. Instead of having to go from 80F to 3000F+ it has to go from 700-1400F say to 3000F+ . Just seems it would be more stable. I am just getting these things outa my head. These drawings/simulations are how I do that ,then you guys can see how I am thinking and correct the crap I don't see.
Idea is insulating high temperature with high temperature .
Not only is this one a rendering but is also a dynamic heat simulation.
4000F inside the ceramic vessel .I will have some numbers to add to this
as I go through different heat simulations .The steel and ceramic are the only things in simulation at the moment.
Amazing at rendering.
Yes, it will heat easily with the steel on the outside. The plasma will be emitting infared radiation, which I'm not sure if this goes through steel so easy when being used as a heater. Another consideration, is that although heating up initially is helped, it doesn't matter if it takes an hour if it will be left running for a long time, a little patience might be acceptable.
Claiming the heat can wait, but the induction heat might be of greater value in maintaining heat when it is being sucked off, such as circulating greater volumes of water, when the greatest problem will be extinguishing the plasma. Just some feedback.
Yeah that makes sense.Hmmm ok got to think about that.
To stop the plasma just shut off the water or incoming steam
from a second steel tube in the induction field ,hmmm
Slept on it.
Ok, to start the plasma, just stick in a tungsten welding rod through the vent hole infront of the hho. Since this will sublimate at 6000 c, this should get it hot real quick. Maybe cost an inch or so of the tungsten, who knows. Maybe a quarter's worth.
When I said the greatest problem will be extinguishing the plasma, I meant to say the greatest problem will be keeping the plasma from being extinguished when sucking off heat. My engineer friend said just think of the blacksmith putting the hot horseshoe in the bucket of water. No, the water doesn't steam away. The heat is sucked out of the metal very fast. So water is a great consumer of heat...but also the best means of converting heat to usable energy-namely steam.
Ironhead:
For making a room heater, I really think the steel and the induction are not needed at all. Just imagine a simple round container, like in your last rendering, resting on two floor tiles(12 x 12), separated by ceramic washers. One small vent hole is all that is needed...more will cause undo loss of hho gas. Maybe some fins sticking up made out of the ceramic to help (a fan ?) circulate the radiant heat.
Simple and clean. Have several in your house.
Now for making steam, the iron and induction would greatly help. Just some thoughts.
a very simple concept might work nice
Ok here is my progress on my plasma cell...With this design it is very easy to adjust the rod and replace the stainless screen. For right now I have a 6011 welding rod for an electrode just to see how this works...The water come up through the bottom and i dono yet but out the top side somewhere havent got that far yet...my cell is being gooped up in a few spots right now to seal the water on the clear front plate. Took a break from the hho cell for a bit...where my slots are it is making my cell twist damb it anyway...
here is a pic so you guys can see and to let me know if this is a good idea or not...
Just so you know that is a round globe ss screan...hoping the plasma ball with stay in there...lol
should be a perfect sphere of plasma. hopin anyway.
Getting there , The plasma will just dance around the surface of the rod.
Keep going lets see how it works.
Build It
IronHead
@ironhead
OK so the more rod you have is the ss screan the more or hotter plasma you have? Can you adjust temp by limiting the amount of rod?
Will that welding rod work? my thoughts are 60 bucks for 10 tungsten rods or 25 bucks for 100 welding rods...
I would think the welding rod would burn up pretty quick , but try it .
Rod tip between 1/2 and 1/8" will adjust the arc and the time it takes to heat the water as far as the arc temp there is no way to adjust that. The plasma burns at it temperature there is no changing it up or down. The key is to get a good stable arc you will know when you have that , when you do that is where you want the tip length to stay .
The more stable the less you spend the rod on pure tungsten anyway.
OK I will fire this guy up tomorrow after the goop dries and do some figuring.
Will that new chapps controller work for a power supply...I know 120v and 120hz will work for now but you also said that in order to keep the rod lasting as long as possible you should pulse the juice. This will keep the rod temps down and also help cool the rod so it can last longer.
Quote from: IronHead on July 15, 2007, 04:21:29 PM
I would think the welding rod would burn up pretty quick , but try it .
Rod tip between 1/2 and 1/8" will adjust the arc and the time it takes to heat the water as far as the arc temp there is no way to adjust that. The plasma burns at it temperature there is no changing it up or down. The key is to get a good stable arc you will know when you have that , when you do that is where you want the tip length to stay .
The more stable the less you spend the rod on pure tungsten anyway.
Chapps wont work here, voltage is not high enough . You could use a VIC maybe but then you might not have enough amps for startup . Would need extensive testing to figure. The new version of Chapps might work not sure yet. Bill is out in LA shooting a movie. So hope to know more in a couple weeks.
What about a Chapps running into a 12v transformer backwards....so a step down transformer hook the output leads from the chapps into the output leads on the transformer would give you 120v at whatever amps the transformer will put out?
If chapps puts out 12v at 30amps then you would have 360watts. I have a 280W transformer that is 120v at 2.3 amps. So that would need an input of 12v at 2.3 amps.
right.
Quote from: IronHead on July 15, 2007, 04:47:47 PM
Chapps wont work here, voltage is not high enough . You could use a VIC maybe but then you might not have enough amps for startup . Would need extensive testing to figure. The new version of Chapps might work not sure yet. Bill is out in LA shooting a movie. So hope to know more in a couple weeks.
Try it. I need about 20 to 30 amps to start mine up but then the amps go down .
For startup you could use the rectifed AC from the wall then switch to Chapps with step up once she is running.
But that is starting from cold of lukewarm water right...if the water was preheated via a heating element it wont take as many amps to start up right.
I will try it.
Quote from: IronHead on July 15, 2007, 05:18:49 PM
Try it. I need about 20 to 30 amps to start mine up but then the amps go down .
For startup you could use the rectifed AC from the wall then switch to Chapps with step up once she is running.
yes but the water also seems to need electrical saturating. If that makes sense.
Well I tried it....not much happend besides for a bunch of hho and quite a few leaks on the front....
The unit was pulling 2.5amps at 120v (300W)...I used supper hot water from the tap with no lye.
will fix the leaks tomorrow night. Then try again.....
Moab was right the coating on the 6011 welding rods just disolved away. Is there an easier method to cover the electrode without using the wifes stove....Grin.... :-\
Quote from: hkyle on July 15, 2007, 05:22:29 PM
But that is starting from cold of lukewarm water right...if the water was preheated via a heating element it wont take as many amps to start up right.
I will try it.
Quote from: IronHead on July 15, 2007, 05:18:49 PM
Try it. I need about 20 to 30 amps to start mine up but then the amps go down .
For startup you could use the rectifed AC from the wall then switch to Chapps with step up once she is running.
just put a piece of heat shrink tubing over it the kind used for wire . Use the good thick stuff for testing . Teflon tubing is even better ether will work . start out with about 1/8 of rod exposed. Can take some time to start the reaction so let it run. Or if you want quick results to see the thing work put some KOH in there.
Great I was thinking about using heat shrink but didn't know how it would hold up to the heat...
Just a question but is this actually plasma or is it just the hydrogen in the water burning in close prox to the Neg tungsten rod?
How does the hydrogen ignight?
Quote from: IronHead on July 15, 2007, 10:31:33 PM
just put a piece of heat shrink tubing over it the kind used for wire . Use the good thick stuff for testing . Teflon tubing is even better ether will work . start out with about 1/8 of rod exposed. Can take some time to start the reaction so let it run. Or if you want quick results to see the thing work put some KOH in there.
That thar 1/8" heat shrink sleeve shrunk down on my 3/32 green rod fit snug as a bug in my 5/32 sandblaster ceramic tip.. added another layer up a little higher and it won't slide any further down the hole.
I got a neat holder arrangement together to align in 2 dimensions easily- pics later.
Turtle
OK, the turtle has plasma reactor #2 up and running, briefly, and things are much better.
A one-inch dia SS screen sleeve centered over the ceramic / tungsten tip works famously... and I like how this thang talks to ya!
Not enough time to take it above 110'F today, more later. Man, I'm glad to see somethin' happenin'.
Soaked in city water and KOH, no specific concentration. Will cipher that out later... I want the ARC! HOT!
<calm down... swim deep and cool off a bit...>
Turtle
that should be a pretty blue reactor . bit of a disco light even .
Good to see you in it Turtle good luck on the tuning.
I wanna be able to spend several hours with it to give it time to talk to me... finding that block of time is painful with my schedule.
Mebbe I'll get to run it in the fume hood at the lab... working alone again this weekend(grin)
The rats are away so the turtles shall play...
Turtle
Ironhead:
My new concept on getting the ceramic heater started is to pour a jigger of water on the bottom and insert a tungsten rod into the vent hole in front of the hho flame and bring the temperature up pretty quick to turn the water into plasma. The tungsten will burn at 6000 C.
I really think the induction heating and steel are overkill for just creating a heater. You might get the plasma too hot and cause "ignition" to fusion and emit rays of light like gamma rays or something. Just a thought.
I know when the ceramic vessel might be used to steam water, the induction heating will be great idea to stablize the plasma as heat is sucked off. Will really be a help here.
My brain seems to shoot all the bullets at once, so to speak.
I concur . Still waiting on ceramic
Ok. This technology is hard to be accepted by my reason....only my intuition says it is possible.
Your heat simulation on the rendering of the plasma vessel was amazing. I'm back to the tungsten plasma project. Glad Turtle had some progress. Thanks for the inspiration on this.
Well, progress in the sense that I found something else that didn't work. But it sure was neat listening to that thar thang talkin' to me, whilst its green rod dissolved into the abyss... thenceforth, silence. (It was awe inspiring)
Details: OK, I'll see if my access will let me post the final setup pic in a few... but for now, the tale.
Using the green 3/32 rod sleeved with shrinkwrap, held by a 5/32 bore sandblast tip, I suspend same in a nickel-plated screen (1mm mesh) cylinder of size 1 1/4" approx by 4" long. Bottom of cyl formed by a plastic disc, bolted to base plate. Top of cyl had another disc boar-hogged out fer the ceramic tip to nicely center itself.
Said apparatus was contained in a 4L plastic vessel, and 2 L of hot 130'F tap water added. 120 rectified VDC added, and amp draw was <1.0 thru that "kill-a-watt" in-line meter. Henceforth, bringeth on the KOH.
A total of 500 mL of 2Normal KOH was added, and she was singin' a song, pullin' 5 amps and heating the water to 155'. (Total concentration 1.43% by weight KOH in tap water. No access to spring water jes now.)
But then it leveled off the temp rise, more KOH added, decreasing amps... what's goin' on here? Sudden drop in power draw to < 1 amp (with all that KOH!?!).
Oh, must be some crud on the exposed rod. Yikes! What rod?!? A nice sharp point up in the shrink wrap, and my rod's been abducted by aliens!!!! Or eaten by KOH.
Peel back some wrap, expose more rod, try again... big amps fer a short while, then the same scenario.
Well, I ain't gonna let y'all get away with my rod that easy! Shuts it down and pulls it out, and the exposed rod is half the diameter it was 10 minutes ago. Time to turn it off and think fer a while.
It never did produce any arc, or anything I could see as an arc. It did make enough HHO to cloud the water real good, and I added an air hose with a whisper of air to circulate electrolyte.
I reckon field proximity had a great deal to do with "no arc"... too large a diameter fer the screen cylinder. Possibly the coarse mesh as well, cuz it ain't 100 micron... 10 times as big.
I'm into it, gents. The next few days will be in the HHO processes, containment and such. More on this after I get more rod and finer screen.
Thanks for yer interest.
Turtle
eaten by KOH and the temp produced there of
Is field gap the greater issue? Different electrolyte?
Thanks, IronHead.
Turtle
Can you post a picture . Something is very wrong here.
With that much KOH you should have had an arc right away
and almost white hot as well.
How much of the rod was exposed to water ?
For testing try baking soda ,a few table spoons and let the thing run
for awhile at least until it boils . if you dont get a reaction
there is something wrong with the build. Bake will produce a orange
cooler arc.
In the long run you want water and water only.
Turtle:
Maybe you should try the Graco paint filter for a standard starting point. mmmm. Sounds like you have alot to decifer to find the problem....anyway, just a thought. Good luck on getting it going.
OK I think I'm with turtle with this one but some differences....
First off 2L of water in the reactor 118v and 1.2 amps....This was again hot hot water out of my tap....
Second add some Lye....Nice pulling 4amps to start, let that run for a while. Start seeing some quick blue flashes quite a few this was at 2 amps....Water is alot hotter...
Sorry don't have a temp probe for this....
Third Take the rod out and expose more surface area...First was 1/8 inch...Now it was at 1' rod exposed in the ss globe. Plug er in again Now were pulling 7amps...this Drops down to 3 amps in 2min...Man that water is getting hot fast...starting to see again some quick blue flashes and then very few orange flashes not many though.....
Forth I let this run for about 20min the amps went down to 1.2amps still some quick flashes but nooooo orange ones anymore....
What is going on...
Had to stop the test because my box was starting to contort and distort from the heat of the water...
Should I have let this thing cook some more? I didnt want ta get burnt...lol
Just went back out to take a look at the rod and well sheees a little cleaner but thats about it..not eaton in anyway...
again this is the build...That ss globe is about 1.5inch round and I am using a 1/8 rod with heat shrink on it.
Right also forgot to mention that this unit was humming like a son of a ...... at 7 amps then seemed to quiet down a bit...not much though. But still humming louder than at 4 amps.
There was also a stream of gas bubbles coming off of the negative electrode...lots of em.
you are building a heater .hint hint
Well my cfr is leaking again like a siv.....need to find a new container. Besides for using ss doeas anyone have another idea. It cannot be conductive (I want to live some more) but needs to be able to handle a hole-lota heat....
What about a 6" X 1' PVC pipe? Does PVC handle heat?
any other ideas?
HKyle, I don't know if it's made in 4 to 6" diameters, but you could use CPVC, which is what is being used in new home construction for the hot water pipes as well. It's rated to 200 degrees F, I used it within the last year for my downstairs apartment, and haven't had any problems. One thing I will tell you, cpvc cement is alot different from pvc cement, in that pvc... you can still move it around for a few seconds once the joint is together, cpvc... you had better have in mind exactly how far on you need to push the end plug, cap or what ever, it bonds INSTANTLY.... and I mean INSTANTLY. Yes, I had to do my piping job twice, due to it's unforgiving nature.
Hope this helps sir,
-rapttor
I started out using one of those heavy duty clear plastic filter housings . It worked for a little while but started to degrade . Cracks formed up the sides of the housing . It never leaked but they got pretty bad .The whole case also started to become cloudy looking.
So now I use the 316 stainless steel version . Like this rated at 300F
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51972084/Filter_Housing.jpg
I would like to get one of these things some day and do a triple stage unit.
If I do I will make sure I post its construction this time before its all tucked up under the Motorhome.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51975676/Water_Purification.jpg
I am not sure about CPVC as I have never seen it larger than 1" pipe
@I.H. I have never seen it in sizes much above 1" - 1 1/2" but according to this site, you can get diameters up to 24"... that be a BIG pipe!
http://www.harvel.com/pipecpvc-sch80-dim.asp (http://www.harvel.com/pipecpvc-sch80-dim.asp)
Just a thought, but has anyone ever tried gutting one of these lights? Might make a good chamber, and the glass already has to endure high temps... the flouro version isn't too bad of a price.
http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProducts.asp?ProductFamilyID=7 (http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProducts.asp?ProductFamilyID=7)
Thanks rapttor, I have never seen it either but I will keep a look out.
IronHead these container ROCK....Great idea....The only thing that i would be concerned about (for me anyway) is the abiltiy to see what is going on in the chamber, so I would need some type of looking glass.
With the PVC or CPVC I was going to cut out some of the side and put on a plate of acrylic, or something else. It won't be bad when the water is circulating but just sitting there for tests it could get a little hot....
Thanks guys.
Quote from: IronHead on July 26, 2007, 02:30:22 PM
I started out using one of those heavy duty clear plastic filter housings . It worked for a little while but started to degrade . Cracks formed up the sides of the housing . It never leaked but they got pretty bad .The whole case also started to become cloudy looking.
So now I use the 316 stainless steel version . Like this rated at 300F
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51972084/Filter_Housing.jpg
I would like to get one of these things some day and do a triple stage unit.
If I do I will make sure I post its construction this time before its all tucked up under the Motorhome.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51975676/Water_Purification.jpg
I am not sure about CPVC as I have never seen it larger than 1" pipe
I cut a hole in the side and welded a sight glass to the chamber with the Pyrex type port.
Something like this one. Got that idea from Moab. before that I could just hear if it was working well or dieing.
http://www.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/JohnCErnst/Threaded_Male_Sight_Window_Model_304/37741/0?fromSpotlight=1
Those lamps are a neat Idea as well.
Well the only price I could find on those ss filter housings were $220 bucks ca....ouch lots of cash for a test mod...
I guess I'm stuck with drilling a or some holes in my ss tanks from the good ol distiller. I need most of the parts from it anyway.
This might work better for me cause I was going or will be going to the dump and grabing an old furnace. Gut it and have a forced air hot water furnace for the shop.
Quote from: IronHead on July 26, 2007, 02:30:22 PM
I started out using one of those heavy duty clear plastic filter housings . It worked for a little while but started to degrade . Cracks formed up the sides of the housing . It never leaked but they got pretty bad .The whole case also started to become cloudy looking.
So now I use the 316 stainless steel version . Like this rated at 300F
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51972084/Filter_Housing.jpg
I would like to get one of these things some day and do a triple stage unit.
If I do I will make sure I post its construction this time before its all tucked up under the Motorhome.
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51975676/Water_Purification.jpg
I am not sure about CPVC as I have never seen it larger than 1" pipe
hkyle:
IronHead is right, brother- yer building a heater. That thar PVC bucket of yers oughta handle the heat fer a while, whilst y'all git yer arc spacing right. I got more parts, no time...
I got a clear bucket like what a restaurant uses in food prep, and suspended stuff from above. Can't do pics right now.
I was checkin' about that cast acrylic 4" tubing I bought for some other cells, but I cain't find the site. Had good info on heat ratings, thought is was good for 280'F before it gets mushy.
More next week. Thanks fer all the input, folks!
Turtle
ok guys some of your cells have the symptoms of reverse polarity .
If you hook the positive to the tungsten rod you will get little to no arc and the rod will dissolve.
You must hook the Negative to the Tungsten and the Positive to the Screen
IronHead
Ok so I was wrong...I posted earlier that my electrode had no "erossion" on it, I was wrong, took another closer look and right in the middle on the top of the rod there is a small pin hole..
And another thing ummm is aluminium ok in this cell with just water? ummm I forgot and ummm, well hey can I have brass in the cell. lol I need a fitting to hold the screen and I can get a brass one. Frickin small towns, never have anything ya need.
I see, said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw...
That's what did it! And good news, folks;
I jes got hooked up with a sheet metal shop that'll make stainless cylinders fer us. Gots a can of 304, 'bout 6" dia and 8" tall, TIG'd together. Looks nice.
If there be an interest, might take my big sheet of 316L (0.048 thick) down yonder, and slice, roll and TIG weld till I run outa cash... <grin>
Any sizes to recommend?
Also got more green rod and screen... hopefully next week will see some progress.
Thanks fer the guidance, IronHead!
Turtle
Quote from: hkyle on July 27, 2007, 10:54:50 PM
And another thing ummm is aluminium ok in this cell with just water? ummm I forgot and ummm, well hey can I have brass in the cell. lol I need a fitting to hold the screen and I can get a brass one. Frickin small towns, never have anything ya need.
Stainless 304 screen at Walmart in the form of a kitchen strainer set- 3 pcs ,sm,med,lg for <$10 USD . Methinks it's 304 cuz is slightly magnetic, but it ain't made outa aluminum.
Turtle
My screen is 304 aswell but it is the nozzle that is attached to my screen, that is aluminium. Peicing another one together...hopefully get another test done in a few days.
Thanks guys.
Quote from: keithturtle on July 28, 2007, 11:31:20 PM
Quote from: hkyle on July 27, 2007, 10:54:50 PM
And another thing ummm is aluminium ok in this cell with just water? ummm I forgot and ummm, well hey can I have brass in the cell. lol I need a fitting to hold the screen and I can get a brass one. Frickin small towns, never have anything ya need.
Stainless 304 screen at Walmart in the form of a kitchen strainer set- 3 pcs ,sm,med,lg for <$10 USD . Methinks it's 304 cuz is slightly magnetic, but it ain't made outa aluminum.
Turtle
If the nozzle is aluminum and the screen is attached to it, then, man, that's gotta put a heck of a load on yer shrink wrap! Also, yer jes a wrap's thickness away from a dead short, if'n I got yer cell pictured right...
Turtle
Here's a pic. Sandblast tip is supported in an acrylic cradle, clamped to a thick polycarbonate bridge across bucket.
Screen bolted to UHMW sitting on bottom of bucket, whilst SS thr rod exrends up to get clamped to bridge. Grabbing while running was quite a shock. Thenceforth, wrapped with tape.
Pos to rod, neg to screen on this one. That'll be fixed next time 'round
Turtle
lookin good Turtle
Looks nice. Where's the plasma? :o
Turtle:
Just joking Turtle, as "where's the beef?" You got more done than I have on this project....not so easy as it looks. Hope the reversing polarity helps.
Yer soundin' like my cardiologist, robb077, always wantin' to know if I been eatin' right...
Gimme a bit more time. Got a lead on furnace equipment, new, cheap... supplier of "last years technology", hopefully some fluid heat exchanger equipment... more later
Turtle
We got plasma boys....post pics and vid in a bit the wife wants me to get her the paper...Great timing....
btw it took about 20seconds and is running on 129 watts...
Update...New screen, changed rod. now at 82Watts of power at startup of CFR...
Next Vid shows how unstable the plasma cell is at first...
Next Vid shows a fairly stable plasma cell, There is absolutley no sound coming from the cell for the first while...COOL it was kinda freeky seeing how this was my first time and all....Then as the water level goes down and the temps come up even more you start to hear the water boil. Still to hot...but this is with no circulation.
Like I said this is a test cell. lol
Next vid shows this weird heat wave in the cell, can't explain it but it shows up really good in the vid...
Enjoy..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqO5xhLq0Ro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpSyjo5omU0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3gDK05CT_g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg1XRGCqZ_Y
Glad to hear the progress, hkyle.. looking forward to the video (cain't see where they are jes now).
What for heat extractions y'all got to plannin'? I wanna use soft copper tubing coil near the screen and circulate oil (or mebbe water) to another heat transfer tank.
But first thangs first- gots to strike an arc. Got parts, no time...
Turtle
Sorry Turtle I'm just in the middle of uploading the vids right now...Takes a while.
Sweet! What made the difference in stbility? Temp lapse rate? DId you add any electrolyte? Gotta read thru that pdf from that fusion site IronHead posted. There's a lot to this.
Thanks fer the posting, hkyle! Talk about motivation, and I cain't wait to see temp rise vs. watts applied numbers!
Splashing into the pond,
Turtle
OK there done...
What I'm gona try and do is Zone this out with multiple units on a friends house. He has hot water heat for his floors and also rads in the old house...For my garage I have a big hot water furnace that I'm building right now.
That thar heatwave may be key to the thermal extraction process- study its behaviour well and engineer the exchanger around it. Also, I found I gotta electrically isolate my temp probe cuz it don't like the field.
Fer my first exchanger I'm using a radiator from a minivan, with fan.
Gotta use what I got, first.
This is excellent stuff, no?
Turtle
Ya know I HAVE NO IDEA....It just started dropping amps, went from 4 amps to .6...She was humming for a while until the temps went up. Then it starting splattering and stuff like that, then we got the plasma. The temps then jumped up and then there was noting, no sound it was FREEKY...I thought I was gonna blow the roof off of the garage. lol...then the water started to boil at the end of the stable vid. Took a look at how much water was disasocieated and it was .5 inch down from the top. Sorry didn't measure weight or anything like that.
Seems when you hit optimun temps the cell starts to quite down, and pull less amps. It never did get below .6 amps.
This is awsome stuff. lovin it. Thanks IronHead for the help on this one.
Quote from: keithturtle on July 31, 2007, 02:09:12 AM
Sweet! What made the difference in stbility? Temp lapse rate? DId you add any electrolyte? Gotta read thru that pdf from that fusion site IronHead posted. There's a lot to this.
Thanks fer the posting, hkyle! Talk about motivation, and I cain't wait to see temp rise vs. watts applied numbers!
Splashing into the pond,
Turtle
Awesome vids hkyle! next time you fire it turn on an am radio and hear whats happining as she cooks up to a frothy boil. It might help you understand what would make it better. Dam.. You guys are good! ;) .M.
Cool what is the station?
HKyle, nice work as always... that quiet cell was kinda freaky, when you can see activity but hear nothing at all...
I guess it is time to start considering working on a "heating" project since it does get a bit "chilly" up hea in New England, even worse up by your neck of the woods.
Just a thought, maybe you've tried it already, but for the tungsten electrode, I wonder if that porcelain in a bottle you can buy at Homedepot or Lowes that's used to fill in chips or cracks on the stove top, if you could coat the tungsten rod with it and leave only the bottom that you want exposed non-coated. I would imagine the heat with standing capabilities must be decent.
my financed .02
-rapttor
There is no Tungston...That is 6010 welding electrode with the coating removed and the heat shrink...lol works great. So far there is very little wear on the rod.
After running the cell for a while you can touch the rod at the bottom and it is not hot.
Thanks for the tip on the porcelain in a bottle. I will try it if the rod gets to hot...
Tonight I am going to try something different with the power. Not pulsed or anything...But very low voltage after the cell worms up. See if I can lower the wattage even more. Not sure if it will work but will try anyway.
Quote from: rapttor on July 31, 2007, 10:53:26 AM
HKyle, nice work as always... that quiet cell was kinda freaky, when you can see activity but hear nothing at all...
I guess it is time to start considering working on a "heating" project since it does get a bit "chilly" up hea in New England, even worse up by your neck of the woods.
Just a thought, maybe you've tried it already, but for the tungsten electrode, I wonder if that porcelain in a bottle you can buy at Homedepot or Lowes that's used to fill in chips or cracks on the stove top, if you could coat the tungsten rod with it and leave only the bottom that you want exposed non-coated. I would imagine the heat with standing capabilities must be decent.
my financed .02
-rapttor
Just outa curiousity, have you tried these, or similar "trode" material?
I'd imagine the steel electrode(flux coated) lasts much longer...
http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/CCxx.html (http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/CCxx.html)
No I havnt..That there coating has to come off...if not it just disolves and falls off anyway soooo.
Quote from: rapttor on July 31, 2007, 12:06:43 PM
Just outa curiousity, have you tried these, or similar "trode" material?
I'd imagine the steel electrode(flux coated) lasts much longer...
http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/CCxx.html (http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/CCxx.html)
Have used this type of gouging rod at work to burn off large welds on steels. These even come in 1/4" diameter and they are copper outside with carbon centers. These babies will burn some steel.
Yeah, but will they hold up to what the plasma reactor dishes out?
BTW, what was the reasoning fer not usin' thoriated rod? It's the only one I could get my claws on in 5/23 size, has 2% thorium.
Back to basking,
Turtle
.... something about "glowing in the dark" and "growing extra limbs" and such.
http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/tungsten/radioactivity.htm (http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/tungsten/radioactivity.htm)
Good post- now I can glow like an underwater pool light.
Slipping off the log,
Turtle
There talking about the blue tip rods with 2% thoriated tungsten . The green rods as suggested are pure tungsten and produce no harmful radiation. Please build as suggested .
Perfect I finally found someone who actually has those ss screens for the Grayco sprayer....$10 bucks, each not too bad..should be here in a couple days.
Nix the thorium... got it
No longer glowing,
Turtle
Great Thread guys....looking forward to doing this one!!!!!!
I like the simplicity of the arrangement, and as long as y'all can find the parts, ye ain't gonna have $75 USD in the whole thang.
Check out "surplus center" fer stout bridge recs.
Turtle
Quote from: keithturtle on August 01, 2007, 09:35:01 PM
I like the simplicity of the arrangement, and as long as y'all can find the parts, ye ain't gonna have $75 USD in the whole thang.
Check out "surplus center" fer stout bridge recs.
Turtle
no way more than 75.00 to see a good burn. But when you add all the heat exchangers and pumps needed you could expend as much cash as you would like. Im prolly into 4-5 range. what i learned from building it is indeed invalueable.. Great to see you guys haveing fun while im putting in my 7-14s through the summer tho.. Moab
OK so in order to make plasma in the cell what do we have to do? We have to super heat the atoms to get those electrons spinning super fast around the atom. When we get those electrons spinning so freekin fast They will break the electro static field (great idea for another hho thread) that holds the electrons in there shells.
and voila we have plasma....
So what is the best way to heat the water a efficient as possible? use a better conducting rod? a bigger screen?
But we don't want it to get too hot. Lower the voltage even more?
What do we need to do?
It seems to mee that (from the experiments that I have done lately) the more amperage that the cell can get the hotter that rod gets the more plasma I get.
Sorry just rambling.
The $75 was jes the jumping off point. Proof of concept make fer a right powerful motivator.
Ramble on, hkyle... thinking out loud gives us all a chance to git inside yer haid.
Off topic: after shaing a few of these abstractions with an aquaintance a while back, he made a profound statement.... "Man, inside yer head has got to be a scary place!"
Couldn't have articulated it any better <grin>
Turtle
Old ,self circulating "Heatpipe" configuration .
Dual chamber with 2 rods per chamber. Only one chamber is hooked up in this pic.
This one melted in the long run because of material types.
Just thought I would share it
IronHead
Yah see...I was going to do 3 in series with each other....but with 1 rod / unit...hmmmm the power of convection. 2 rods in 1 screen, not too bad of an idea.....eyyy 2 rods in series, got a voltage drop keepin up the efficiency....
So is there a need for multiple rods in 1 chamber? That would get the old water nice n hot pretty quick.
Hey IronHead whats that red box to the left...
So did some tests last night to see if I can get this thing to spark up with out any soda. I used 2 types of water, my osmosis water and lol the town water. Well lets just say that I'm glad I dont drink the town water because that sh$t turned brown in about 4 seconds (my god what the hell is in there). The osmosis water did nothen not even 1 spark....I guess thats whats happening when your only pulling .23 amps @ 118 volts.
Maybe I should get some water from the farm. It's all sand up there and the water is remarkably pure. Gona try that aswell.
Soo I think I'm stuck with adding soda to my system "grin" for now. either soda or another type of electrolyte that will not react with aluminium.
Oxygen and electrified water will react with the aluminum , sorry.
The red box is the driver.
Well ain't you the bringer of bad news....lol....The fins in my heat exchanger are aluminum, but I'm not sure on the tubes running through it...they probably are too, knowing my luck...I'm gonna have to find out some how...
Quote from: IronHead on August 02, 2007, 04:31:45 PM
Oxygen and electrified water will react with the aluminum , sorry.
The red box is the driver.
Try it ,but I used a brass radiator and a copper coil you see on the old one I just posted.
On the brass radiator I used an aluminum 90* elbow and it etched away in about 20 hours of on time. Now this could have been from electrolisis and maybe a zinc plate would have solved this problem but I am not sure as I just did away with the part and put an SS fitting on there.
Al I know is it did not work out and I hate to see someone destroy a nice aluminum rad.
So I think I would do some test before using it.
OK so I checked the rad last night and the fins are aluminum but the pipes are brass. So I think I am good...My ss screens should be here today, if not today tuesday...
Gonna fire up the neg rod unit later tonite. Those look like 2" pipes, no? Mebbe a larger diameter would bear the heat easier, not melting?
The only graco strainer I found (pic later) has plastic all thru it; guess I'll run it till it melts <grin>
Turtle
Problem was PVC melts pretty low temps but I got the info needed from these test to move on to Stainless Steel. She is all tucked up under the Motorhome and ready for winter.
Full floor radiant heat system was evolved from those few pipes you see. The floor system is also a Heatpipe" system and work very nicely . That PVC pipe job you could look at like a temporary working model.
Now is that ss screen for the pump or for the gun...it makes a difference, I had this poor bugger on the phone for 20 mins, giving him IronHeads description and had him running back and forth...lol...I had no model number or anything to go by...it was too funny...had ta say sorry a couple of times...
Quote from: keithturtle on August 03, 2007, 06:53:39 PM
Gonna fire up the neg rod unit later tonite. Those look like 2" pipes, no? Mebbe a larger diameter would bear the heat easier, not melting?
The only graco strainer I found (pic later) has plastic all thru it; guess I'll run it till it melts <grin>
Turtle
For the pump. He should have known by the dimensions. they only make like 3 in that size. The gun screens are tiny.
@Turtle , waiting for your reactor to fire.
Sorry but I already started celebrating about an hour ago :P
Hey PASS ME A BEER :P
Alas, place the bubbly back in the rack...
Lack of preparation proved more than the turtle could overcome. I fergot that 4L bucket, thermometer and the KOH (not that I wanted to use it). I set it up same as last time but reversed polarity- neg on rod, pos on field (screen). No electrolyte in the ~135'F water and she drew 0.34 amps. Air added to stir it.
Ain't got no KOH here... but there be some NaOH by the ferric feeder..
Turned it the ugliest iron color, chunks and all. At 5 amps, got warmer though, (how much?) and no arc.
Shut 'er down to find nice brown band on the screen. BTW, this screen was plated, not SS so's I reckon the plating got knocked off exposing the steel beneath.
lower pic new screen (not used tonite... tomorrow I'll be better prepared)
Thanks fer y'all's interest. Sorry to disappoint...[turtle hangs head and slips back beneath the pond scum...]
Turtle
I dont think the screen is coated but it is now with magnetite .
That screen will work fine I think . add more bake in there till it starts to buzz
you are very close and give it time for run in. Also adjust that rod tip to about 1/4 inch
You have greater progress than you know!
OK new vid...just thought I'd show what is goin on instide the cell...Ya know I just can't get this rod hot enough. I can dump the water and it is freekin boiling hot but right after I can grab the rod and it is not hot....
anyway IronHead do you have any pointers for me?
Heres the vid.
and yes I had my mask on. and both doors are open and yes there is wind tonight....lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTIX1txkI6I
the rod will never be hot like that . The heat transfers to the water in seconds . and then to there air in seconds.
You have to much tip in the video go with half of what you have there exposed to the water you are getting closer.
You will know when she is stable .
Those there arks the way it is suppose to be? I'm right on track, time to scale it up? Start pulsin some how?
sorry for the questions.
OK I will do that right now. upload another quick vid in a bit.
you have to get that arc stable first. Right now you are pulsing if you are running a rectifier from 120vac 60hz . With the bridge you are pulsing at 120hz .
BTW the heat wave you got is a very good sign and at the right level.
One more thing that crosses my mind is that you are very close to the surface of the water . lets just see how this goes. I would really like to see a higher water level above the arc but
lets just see what happens here.
OK new vid is being uploaded right now. There is about 3/16 of rod open to the water in this vid..Yes it is a full wave bridge, I would like to be in the 20k range but your right let me get this stable first the wory about pulsing at that level another time.
I must say that those there changes in the rod made one hell of a difference...
Thanks man...
I will do another vid with the rod lower if I can. Not much more screen there.
EDIT...
OK here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKkLc4bc7Gs
Not too bad 53 watts of juice...
Quote from: IronHead on August 04, 2007, 12:55:27 AM
you have to get that arc stable first. Right now you are pulsing if you are running a rectifier from 120vac 60hz . With the bridge you are pulsing at 120hz .
BTW the heat wave you got is a very good sign and at the right level.
One more thing that crosses my mind is that you are very close to the surface of the water . lets just see how this goes. I would really like to see a higher water level above the arc butlets just see what happens here.
How far away is the screen from the rod? how far around the rod does the screen go ?
The rod is about 1/2" away from the screen...That screen was a flat square one that I persuaded to be round..The screen is all well maybe I should take a pic and show you. Yah I will do that right now.
Quote from: IronHead on August 04, 2007, 01:32:16 AM
How far away is the screen from the rod? how far around the rod does the screen go ?
Here is an old configuration pic that works like the one I posted on youtube.
Ya my rod comes in from the bottom into the screen...Yours goes through the top...not sure if it matters though..But I like how your idea is because the h goes straight out the top...Just looked but did you notice who just logged in...lol...do you even want to guess.
That has got to be hard to change or adjust the rod in that there old unit.
anyway here is the screen and rod..
looks fine the only thing I can think of is maybe deeper in the water if you can and add some more electrolyte till is really arcs up maybe.
BTW He is in read mode only.
OK i'm on it...still not stable enough ehh.
EDIT...
OK new vid is again being uploaded..This one is shot from the bottom side up...sorry the picture will explain all, and might actually be the problem. Right when I started it up I get all the bubbles in the unit but the hight of the bubbles in the glass is determined by the rod in the screen...more rod less bubbles less rod more bubbles.
Might have to do with that there heat wave.
Or maybe it is a magnetic wave of some kind...just pushed the rod up and well have a look. Less bubbles.
Here is the link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_RZ26r3xXs
Excellent burn, hkyle;
Now I no longer think of my failure as failure- cuz I learn from 'em all. When once I no longer learn, that will be failure.
Keep at it- I gots more fabricatin' to do.
@IronHead- thanks fer yer patience with us. It's gotta be a real hoot for y'all!
Wiping the scum off,
Turtle
Thanks turtle...
Well I'm scrapping this unit and going on to the next build...There is just not enough screen and well not enough water in this here unit...time to build another.
Now that I got quite a good understanding on how this guy works I can step it up a notch.
Thanks again IronHead for all your help...
Quote from: keithturtle on August 04, 2007, 02:37:59 AM
Excellent burn, hkyle;
Now I no longer think of my failure as failure- cuz I learn from 'em all. When once I no longer learn, that will be failure.
Keep at it- I gots more fabricatin' to do.
@IronHead- thanks fer yer patience with us. It's gotta be a real hoot for y'all!
Wiping the scum off,
Turtle
That's what it's about, bro... learning how the rascal responds. Gotta figger out the nature of the beast before'n y'all can start to tame it.
Watch out... it's got teeth!
Turtle
That is absolutely right. Looking much better now hkyle .
The arc is still bouncing around abit keep tuning till you get a solid arc and a solid sound.
She will sound like eggs frying and the viboration will be uniform and in sync. Looking great guys. Wish i had time to play too. Dangit!! Moab.
Take the night off, moab... we'll work fer ye.
A better prep this time, new parts, smaller spacing 1/4" out the tip. Whadidya say about baking soda instead of KOH? Got both. Won't mix.
Pic of parts- will fire it up later.
Turtle P. (for persistent)
use Bake for this
Got it. Baking soda in solution as need to up the amps.
Thanks,
Turtle
Talked to a ceramics lady today- I can get molds made for any thing I want... may modify that SS piece I spoke of earlier (pic below) to have a receiving ledge fer the screen/clamp/contact and core bored fer my 1/8" rod. Good contact to have <grin>
I know regular clay won't work , but that good circuit stuff should (!$!?!$)
Workin' O T to support the habit,
Turtle
Tomorrow. There's always tomorrow.
I didn't have enough baking soda to get the amps above 4... never got above 155'F
Had to invert it cuz a gas pocket wouldn't go thru the screen. There jes ain't enough conductivity I reckon with <75 grams of NaHCO3.
Tomorrow.
Turtle
Bottom pic is the piece I'll fill with ceramic around the rod... mebbe a quick-shot screen and rod holder.
Well, it worked. Briefly, lots more NaHCO3 was all it needed to start a nice, albeit small arc. That large 4L pot and the air moving thru the fume hood created enthalpy such that it never got above 155'F again. Reckon that's why the power never dropped off. Smaller pot next time.
Whenever I repositioned the rod to expose more, the insulation bared a stainless bolt and it started arcing, too (bottom of pic).
Ye be right, bro IronHead... this thing will learn ye, big time! Gotta sit back an ponder awhile, and gets me a smaller pot!
Thanks fer yer interest. HHO for the next few days, I'm a-hopin'.
Turtle
Turtle:
Nice work there. You have passed the plasma head initiation ;D
Really, glad you had success finally. Nice there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Woho Turtle you got arc or 2 hmmm that must be a reflection.
Good to see you got her going .
Actually I had arching too. The heat shrink came off in the middle of the rod and it started arching there too...I didn't pay much attention to it, I just sealed it up again.
EDIT...
OK another vid for you guys...This one I think is a hell of a lot more stable than the rest. This guy is running on .3 - .4 amps not bad at all 35 - 40 Watts. Can't heat water up on the stove with that much power.
Great job Turtle...was it worth all the time and effort.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EoOS-nWxcA
Quote from: IronHead on August 06, 2007, 07:32:41 PM
Woho Turtle you got arc or 2 hmmm that must be a reflection.
Good to see you got her going .
I had a 3 volt potential in the water, and ~200 grams of bake. pH 9.1 SU-really base stuff.
The lower arc is a real haid-scratcher... how might exposed rods behave elsewhere in the field [think- starburst spike hair-do, center radiating out, big cylinder for pos field charge]
Oh, thinking out loud again; can y'all hear the gears a-grindin'?
<grin> It's late.
Turtle
Ironhead:
Any news on the ceramic? This technology is really hard to believe. If the hho is in a chamber so hot it can't implode it will keep on burning basically, with just a small input. Anyway, not sure on your production of hho in any volume. Could this require like 500 liters/hour to get started? Don't know much on this. Imagine it was done with 1000 liter/hr before. Maybe the tungsten primer could lower it alot. Just some thoughts.
TURTLE: KEEP UP THE PROGRESS!!
I have the magnesium ceramic, I just don't have the time at the moment but should soon.
Ironhead:
Sounds good. My thinking is that building the ceramic and firing it may not take too long but that the real consideration was having sufficient hho available to make it work. Not much idea about the requirements to get it started. Just trial and error probably to find out.
hey fellers Im try'n to get a parts list and all looking for things and came acroos these CPU coolers and wander'n if ther too small or can be used at all ya think.....
http://www.digital-daily.com/cooling/coolers-0107/
This unit is going to be 10 inches long. It has 2 plasma cells in one container. This means I should get twice the heat output and should take half as long to heat the 10 gallons of water that I will be circulating. Hmmmm unless the fields start messing with each other......should have thought about that earlier, woops. Don't think it will though.
There is a 4" looking glass on the front side, this is where the cold or cooler water will enter the cell. Hoping that the cooler water will help keep the looking glass cooler...hopin anyway.
On the other side I will be putting on a screw on cap, this will allow me to change the screens when needed with ease...I tried a couple of times taking them out and putting them back in and it was pretty simple so should be OK. This screw on cap will also help with cleaning the unit and getting all that junk out. The cap will have the HOT water outlet in it, I was thinking it should be at the top of the cell.
The rods will come in from the top down into the center of the ss screens.
I need lots of heat from this guy because this is the unit I will be using for a heat exchanger. Its not as big as it looks in the picture, probable only holds 2 - 3 Gallons of water.
Like IronHead always says.......
Just Build It
Hkyle:
I think you're making headaches with the design. Why not get one going well with one screen with the rod down the center as Ironhead suggested...and get one going well before trying to make two.
Moab was right, the video sounded like eggs frying :D
Have you noticed wat I have done latley? What headaches? Seems pretty simple to me. I do have one that is running well. The problem with the current design is the amount on water in the cell, need more. Why not step it up a bit. It's not like this costs me a whole lota cash..This took me 1 hour last night to build. It is a easy build and anyone can do it if it has positive results. Thats why I'm doing it. I could have built 2 more units each having there own screen and seperate water inlet and outlet but thats more material and more time. This seems better for a build, to me anyway. If this does not work like I had planned then I will do multiple units in series with each other. As the water gets pumped from the first to the last cell the water will get hotter.
What video?
Quote from: Robb077 on August 09, 2007, 12:20:19 PM
Hkyle:
I think you're making headaches with the design. Why not get one going well with one screen with the rod down the center as Ironhead suggested...and get one going well before trying to make two.
Moab was right, the video sounded like eggs frying :D
Hkyle:
I was referring to the video you posted on youtube, the 40 watt one....nice job.
The best idea is to have two screens vertical and run the rod down the center so it has equal space on each side. Hey, you've done more on this than I have, so maybe I shouldn't comment, LOL.
OK guys new vid again for ya...This one here is with the new CFR. This guy is pulling a little more amps than what I wanted but still..Boils 1 gallon of water in 5 min. It is pulling 2.5 amps at 118v. not bad but still have to remember that when the water is circulating it will pull more amps all the time because the water is being cooled down over and over.
Also with this design the rods come down from the top into the middle of the screen, this is WAY WAY WAY better than coming in from the bottom...This way you can actually see the plasma being pushed away from the rod, and also rides up along the side. This actually makes more plasma and generates alot more heat...from what I noticed anyway.
Here is the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7YofGZVw7g
Comments welcome.
@hkyle- cain't see the vid tonite- on the dino line.
So, what you've discovered, as I grasp it, is there ain't a symmetrical relationship betwixt the rod and screen?
If'n that be the case, mebbe my egg whisk idea may have some hope, once I get polarity straight.
I wanna do some testing to determine the nature of the arcing, cuz there ain't no screen, field or other positive infulence nowhere near that lower arcin' SS bolt in the pic.
That is, other than the 3 VDC potential I measured in the water...
Working with HHO fer a few- back to the plasma next week.
Keep at it!
Turtle
HKyle:
Nice video. Looks very stable now.
Can you post a picture of it not running so to see the construction?
Yup it's getting there...the construction pics on pg29 at the bottom...not much more than that but when I get home I will break it down and post some more pictures.
I just purchased a pwm for the guy...I will try it out see how it works in another week or two.
Quote from: Robb077 on August 10, 2007, 06:00:07 PM
HKyle:
Nice video. Looks very stable now.
Can you post a picture of it not running so to see the construction?
strange...three tries....page 29 comes up blank!
what fer PWM did ya get?
Turtle
This one....should be good...good volts...good enough amps....just won't start up wound out. thats ok.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007080909513710&item=11-2449&catname=
Quote from: keithturtle on August 15, 2007, 09:40:12 PM
what fer PWM did ya get?
Turtle
maybe wait awile....I should have made smaller pictures, the wife changed the setting on the camera...lol
Quote from: Robb077 on August 15, 2007, 05:40:21 PM
strange...three tries....page 29 comes up blank!
Neat- I've got their bridges. What about 2 bridges in series, for 220 volts. Possible? Arc threat?
Might try cuz I got several.
Turtle
HKyle:
Yes, needed to wait awhile, lol.
I thought the new design was rod down from the top, which you said was the best way, but no picture of this new type.
Yes theses rods come down from the top....I will have to post new pictures. Those pictures just have a small 1/16 hole drilled into them at the top where I put the rod. Now they have a 1/4 " pipe compression fitting that holds the rod tight and straight in the screen...
I will post more pictures so ya can get a better idea of it.
Quote from: Robb077 on August 16, 2007, 06:12:01 AM
HKyle:
Yes, needed to wait awhile, lol.
I thought the new design was rod down from the top, which you said was the best way, but no picture of this new type.
Hkyle:
I am surprized if you put the rods through the sides of the screen tubes. I would think putting the rods down the center of the screens would be more centered. I will just wait for the picture. thanks. Glad you got it working. Mine is just getting started...actually an engineer friend has started working on it.
lol I think there is some confusion...my rods are coming down from the top and into the middle of the screens..
Hope ya having fun with the build...It kinda gets to ya when she's not working right. One of those builds where it is hard to figure out what is wrong...lol...theres no text book.
Quote from: Robb077 on August 16, 2007, 09:20:39 PM
Hkyle:
I am surprized if you put the rods through the sides of the screen tubes. I would think putting the rods down the center of the screens would be more centered. I will just wait for the picture. thanks. Glad you got it working. Mine is just getting started...actually an engineer friend has started working on it.
Now, how are you isolating yer rods?
I gots mine in that bulky sandblaster tip, but I didn't see such in yers
(turtle scratches haid [that's a sight] <grin>)
Turtle
hkyle:
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but there is no way the rods could come down from the top when on page 29, the two screens are horizonal in the tube. Maybe you can post a picture with the rods inserted. Maybe you changed designed....confused.
New Video ..
Seems To Work Well Check It Out ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU
He answers a lot of my questions, but raises jes as many.
What fer neg rod did he use? (edit- both rods were tungsten)
Gave me lots of ideas, though. Thanks fer that post!
I gotta wonder, how long that vid will be up...
Too bad, I'm spending the next few days in HHO.
Turtle
Ok here are some pics...
The first pic is a shot of the front of the cell plus the pump.
The second is a shot of the side and back showing the sight glass
The third is another shot of the front
The forth is what I am going to use to isolate them rods...
Sorry its taken a while...been trying to upload these photos for a while but she keeps on crapping out on the upload...
hkyle:
Ok got it , thanks. I didn't understand the rods came through the side of the big tube. Good design. I was thinking down the top on the big tube, which would have been through the side of the screen. Anyway, it works well.
@Robb077
ahhh gotcha. Now I understand...Hows your cell coming or have ya built it yet?
hkyle:
Haven't built it yet....just got the 25 amp bridges and gave them to my engineer friend to wire up. then to pick up the tungten and graco screens.
I am trying to figure out why that video of warlock on prior page and even the frenchman, Nagden or whatever, have a white plasma and ironhead and others are reddish. I like the stainless steel piece warlock built....hope you check it out.
The color of the plasm depends on what is in the water...For example I'm using baking soda and my plasma is redish orange....If you goto my youtube page you will also see a plasma video where the plasma is kinda purple white,(www.youtube.com/seriescell) thats because I was using LYE. The super WHITE one over at JLNlabs is white hot because of the amount of Voltage he is putting in...That is way to hot for this. Your rod will be gone in mins not months...
Quote from: Robb077 on August 20, 2007, 09:44:20 PM
hkyle:
Haven't built it yet....just got the 25 amp bridges and gave them to my engineer friend to wire up. then to pick up the tungten and graco screens.
I am trying to figure out why that video of warlock on prior page and even the frenchman, Nagden or whatever, have a white plasma and ironhead and others are reddish. I like the stainless steel piece warlock built....hope you check it out.
Hkyle:
Thanks alot for the explanation. Ok, guess you're using a variac with 110 volts and something like a 25 amp bridge. Is that enough to get it fired up?
With lots of baking soda and hot water (110'F) to start, mine arced right away. I had too large a volume in the cell (4L) and it never got up above 160F. Thus the current never fell below 400 watts.
By "lots of soda" I means near saturation.
I'm a-gonna try hkyle's sidewinder approach, but first the rods go the the ceramic matron to get fired...I ain't messin with that. Too much HHO stuff to build and test, too little kronos...
Turtle
No, no variac with this guy just straight 118v and yes a 25 amp bridge...Never pulls more that 15 on startup with cold water...sooo...but like I said in the pm this dual cfr unit is pulling too much power....gona go with the moby approach....gonna get some pics for you guys in a bit...purchased some more stuff there the other day to make yet again another one.......gotta keep on keepin on.
Quote from: Robb077 on August 21, 2007, 09:44:01 AM
Hkyle:
Thanks alot for the explanation. Ok, guess you're using a variac with 110 volts and something like a 25 amp bridge. Is that enough to get it fired up?
hkyle:
Thanks for the info on the electrical. Your not pulling too much power! One arc would be only 40-50 watts and if you can keep 15 gallons hot at 180 degrees the radiator will provide 15000 btu of heat during the winter. TWO can keep 30 gallons hot and run two radiators to provide 30,000 btu. this can heat 1800 house in the winter. I did it with an emergency kerosene 32K btu heater.
Must get this technology down cause I want to heat 8000 house. 100 watts for 30,0000 btu is nothing!!
hkyle:
Think my math was off. 15 amps = 1800 watts at 110.
Hkyle:
I think if you used a variac and turned the voltage up once the water is above 110 degrees, you would not pull so many amps. If you can get one running with a variac and pulsating, you might draw just 1-2 amps like Ironhead for each plasma...or 10-20 watts. Switch on #2 after #1 gets going. Nice idea your row of plasmas.
Anyway, the 8000 house was a retreat house and I thought maybe this would work as a boiler insert. Was thinking of a row of plasmas in a tube could circulate iby pump to a boiler and keep a large house warm.
Jes fer giggles, I might use Boraxo in the cell the next time I fire it up... did you read ahtweth's C F post?
<glowing grin>
Turtle
Turtle:
Where is that CF post? How did Ironhead do so well with plain water in his plasma posted to youtube? This is a nice way to go if you can make it work. He said no electrolyte...just tap water. Hard to figure.
Focus fusion.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3169.0.html
Methinks IH has high mineral water, possibly.
Possible field proximity issues as well.
Plasma is on the shelf fer me fer a couple weeks, into the HHO.
Turtle
correct
Hkyle:
I really like the series of two plasmas running two radiators....maybe 30K btu which can warm most houses in the winter. The problems of drawing too much power at start up is just using a variac until the water is warmed up.....maybe switching one on at a time....and if you pulse and reverse polarity on the power, maybe you can get down to 1 amp each, like Ironhead., which is very efficient for the amount of heat available. Keep trying :)
Ironhead:
Beginning on the build. Grainger has the good ceramic tips...Cummings has some, but not high grade.
I was thinking about your wire feed idea for the tungsten. What if you had a ceramic plug coming up from the bottom to the 1/2 way point on the graco screen. The tungsten rod rested on this coming down from the top. Now if you put a weight on the tungsten rod that ensured when it burned away, it would move down to meet the ceramic plug, it might be self-feeding. Using 1/4 inch a week, the rod may last the entire season, with pulsing and reversing current. What is your idea on this?
Sounds good try it out.
Just Build it
IronHead
I'm in the middle of a new build, taking advantage of the glazed and fired green rod.
Mebbe I'm jes hung up on htat vid with the 120' partial perf field.
I fabricated a 360' field outa 304 perf plate, ~20ga and brazed it to 304 1/4 allthread. The tungsten is centered in the cylinder, held in place by rubber washers crammed into a brass fitting set in a UHMW lid.
Concentricity set by torque on threaded rod. Will fire it in a narrow vessel to see if I'm close.
If it works I'll post pics.
If it don't I'll post 'em anyway so y'all won't waste yer time, like me...
<twisted grin>
Turtle
WOO HOO! The rascal works!
Pics and details later.
Turtle
After watching that vid I figger I could try a different field.
I put this together and got an excellent stable arc, albeit with near saturation baking soda solution.
Still working on gittin' the amps down.
Turtle
Turtle:
Looks great. Maybe you need a variac and something to pulse and reverse polarity of the current like Ironhead.
IRONHEAD:
It is possible to have a device like reverse induction, which makes electricity from heat. This could work with the tungsten plasma or the hho-ceramic heater. Check this out.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question136.htm
Turtle:
You have a good idea there. What if you tried just an eclipse shape that could be adjusted for closeness to the tungsten....think you might be too far and using more amps...possible. Experimenting with distance from rod might be worthwhile.
Turtle:
Maybe I meant a parabolic shape. If you used smaller and adjusted the distance, maybe less current. Look at the one Warlock made.
IH was of the opinion that the partial field would disintegrate rather quickly at the rod contact. I'm gonna work with 2 feeds on the field.
Also, warlock's arc was anything but stable, and mine was rock steady.
Methinks the relationship of rod to field, applied voltage, and width of field have much to do with performance. This was the first of a skinny-pipe design that proved the perf-plate field will work, at least initially. Much more ahead.
I gotta review all these pages, cuz anomalies I seen need some explaining. Much of study ahead, and yes, the variac is a must. Jes didn't have it at the lab. Step-up tx as well.
At least I be a-headin' in the right direction, uh huh.
More later.
Turtle
Quote from: Robb077 on September 12, 2007, 06:39:28 AM
think you might be too far and using more amps...possible. Experimenting with distance from rod might be worthwhile.
Voltage and field gap are first on the study list.
The ceramic glaze had micro-cracks... the rod was squirtin' H2 out all over... had to sleeve it.
Turtle
Turtle:
I think you have a good point on the partial field argument but not sure of actual mechanics. For example, does a bigger rod make more h2? True, you would have burning just on one side of the rod with partial field, but it should last as long.
Anyway, look forward to more developments. Its getting colder and need to refine the h2 heater :)
Turtle:
It is getting colder so I need to get busy on the heater, lol.
I think if you can replicate what IH made and run it on 10-20 watts with pulsating and reversing current, you will have created an efficient heater. The graco screen works so this is what I am going to use.
My engineer friend is not sure how to pulse and reverse the current as IronHead did. First is the pulsing which might be able to be done with a power transister.
Maybe IH can explain the setup. It would be nice to be able to run on mineral water also instead of great amounts of electrolites.
Hi just some info that may help
An RF signal at 13.56megs into an RF amp with a 250v DC supply will give you a chance to done what you want. You will need the high voltage mosfets with a rating of 1500v and able to run on 6 to 8 amps the RF amp will peek to peek at 1200v with low amps to start the arc then it will drop and the current will rise.
I am working on two projects in and around this.
I have seen the reports from the japs doing this stuff and they had all the gear and the technology but still failed to get any real output of gas.
DO NOT USE ANY FORM OF SALT IN THE WATER AS YOU WILL GENERATE CHLORINE IN THE WATER AND SOME CHLORINE GAS
The water can get up to 1200ppm of chlorine just from a small amount of salt
I have had years of experience with electrolysis in water treatment.
aussepom
13.56 mHz? Can a mosfet switch that fast?
Also, in the plasma application I'm working on, I want the gas burned, recombined to give off heat , thenceforth extract the heat to a thermal application.
If you've done well with RF HHO production, what for heat were you getting?
Thanks,
Turtle
BTW,AP, you into desalination?
I do the dirty water thing, wastewater treatment.
Turtle
Hi keithTurtle
Yes they can
But you run an RF oscillator this is fed into an RF amp the Rf Amp output switches the mosfet the VDD is 250v DC the rf amp is about 4 to 1 so 4x250 around 950V if you use 300v VDD you can get just under 1200V I do not know if it would work in your application but once the arc is formed you need to keep is sustained this has been the main problem using the system you are trying to replicate, most touch the electrodes together then open up the gap a mechanical operation.
The voltage will fall and the current rise, this could be done with carbon rods as well for electrodes.
DC arcs are harder to sustain, the high frequency RF is easier. BUT BE VERY CAREFUL WITH HIGH FREQUENCY HIGH POWER RF it will cook you from the inside 3degree burns from the inside of you.
Advanced power technology has a range of them, cheep for you guys over there I am trying to get some from them myself.
aussepom
Hi keithturtle
This is a follow up
The mosfet does not actually turn and off it's used as a c or a d class amp preferable as push pull.
The signal RF input into the amp is then amplified usually just short of 4 to 1 ratio.
Just like your amp at home that plays music
You can apply this to the standard electrolysis as well but take care.
I am putting together at the moment a demonstration unit for a meeting that I am speaking at, this is a high voltage pulsed power three cell units. I am not sure how it will turn out but I am experimenting again after a few years. I will be talking and showing the break down of the Myers electrolysers there were some interesting things that have come from this, it also has show up some possible flaws.
My main interest is developing my OZ Injector this has got to the build stage and some parts should be ready soon. Mean time I am looking at a few new approaches and explaining things to our followers at Climate Technology Solutions,
climtechsolutions.com
aussepom
Hi Guys
I just came across this thread and find it very interesting.
I suspect this site is related to what you are doing:
http://www.hopecell.com
What's your opinion on this?
Once again, the HOPE cell is concerned with the creation of gas in addition to heat production. What I'm after, at least initially, is the heat. The more gas I can burn (reconbine) in hte plasma process, the better the efficiency, I think.
Still working on it.
aussepom, thanks for the RF info. I'm about as ignorant as a turtle's plastron when it comes to RF, so there's a lot of homework I must do to grasp yer concepts. I believe there is a way to use RF in direct HHO production, and I've aleady started fabricating a cell to drive, once I figger out what to drive it with.
It uses 2" long 1/4" rods on a 1/8 core rod. Many of these in a cylindrical configuration, surrounding a solid 1/2" sq rod as neutral. All contained in an acrylic tube, water injected at end, gas out the other.
Coil wraps the whole thing, RF applied there.
That's my thought; whether or not it has any basis in reality remains to be seen.
It's a long path, and time is not my friend.
I'll follow yer lead. Mebbe that oughta be another thread, though.
Thanks again,
Turtle
Hi keithTurtle
The process you are looking into is in use for spraying molten metals to build up shafts etc.
The coil wrapped around the acrylic tube, they use fine copper tube similar to that used in your freezer compartment, they pump cooling water though the centre because of the heat created by the high current used.
This is a form of DC induction, where the two magnetic field meet in the centre this is the area where a plasma field can be formed.
Down the centre into the plasma field area, they then under pressure they pump air with the metal dust which ever they want to use, the air with the metal dust under pressure through a narrow tube, this is centred in the middle of the acrylic tube, heats up, the intense magnetic field in the centre reacts and in the heated air and metal dust forming a plasma field, this melts the meal dust, then is forced out at the end of the tube though a narrow opening onto the material that is to be built up.
Now it is possible, not tried to my knowledge; that if fine misted water instead of the metal dust was used maybe it could split into HOH.
This is another thing that I wanted to try but you need a heavy low voltage power supply, which I have.
The OZ Injector will use a plasma field and should give a large supply of HOH but it will be like a large bunson burner or small rocket engine flame. I do have plans to 'quench' the output so it does not 'fire up', this will give gas. The 'burner' will be use in a gas turbine engine. Water will then replace Nat gas or kerosene of JET fuel. But that is my pet project. I will look into this HOPE cell project.
aussepom
Hi keithTurtle
Follow up on the HOPE
Just looked at the HOPE cell yes it seems to use the principal that I have just described, but it seems that they are using the 'touch' principal, or possibly a high voltage arc to start off the plasma field, once formed you only need to keep the power on the induction coil.
WHY do these guys rush off to patent these things, the OZ Injector basics have already been placed on the web to stop the any one from patenting it, I have not put out the fine art of it yet that makes it work, but I will eventually.
aussepom
Oh, good! It looks like there be hope for this thing. I wanna git the rough prototype together and post it.
The large bunsen is what I'm after, raw thermal potential; power input is to be minimal.
A little further thought changed the square solid center rod to a 1/2" OD tube, into which can be inserted magnets (got 'em, neos), a small coil to generate harmonic freqs, hysteresis, or sumthin' to kick the process into warp drive...
<grin>
Gotta run fer now, thanks fer your input!
Turlte
hey
whats the go guys don't you like me any more ???
I can not get into the builders forum to access the plasma arc that I started????
comming up with error 403 denighing access even on my old emails ???
as the MIB been at the site???
aussepom
Unfortunately we have to run an emergency maintenance
Thank you
IronHead
Howdy fellers.
I am really interested in more of your guys experiences. I am fixin to build me a plasma generator and am learning about this stuff fast. Thanks for teaching me what you have posted so far.
A few questions
would tungsten carbide last longer?
anybody try 50K volts? would a car coil work?
Are all those other people trying this accounting for HHO production and its energy potenial in their output?
WIth carbon rods does the gas not burn in plasma or produce that other gas, magnegas etc?
Thanks I really appreciate it. I know I need to learn alot about electronics, chemistry and all that but I want to try too and maybe come up with some novel idea that might help.
Welcome to the quest, pgflyjoe;
The basic elements of plasma are four: Rod, charged negative; Field, charged pos, stainless preferred; solution, predominately natural water but with Na2 H CO3, KOH or K2CO3 as additives in small qty to increase conductivity; and a containment vessel capable of transporting away the heated solution to a heat exchanger. [ After the basics, there is a plethora of variables; you ain't ready fer that, and neither am I]
The power applied must be, initially, DC. Things start happening above 180 volts, so be prepared to use mains power and a decent bridge rectifier. Be prepared to provide 20 amps at start up. Mondo variac almost a must.
Start with green rod pure tungsten.
Try any and every combination of the above, and log every detail of yer process.
This ain't fer the faint of heart.
You have a tremendous amount to learn, and the cell will do the teaching..
Build it and learn.
Turtle
Quote from: pgflyjoe on December 22, 2007, 01:27:21 AM
Howdy fellers.
I am really interested in more of your guys experiences. I am fixin to build me a plasma generator and am learning about this stuff fast.
Yer youth betrays you. Take yer time, lest you not live to tell the tale.
Turtle
Walking down your old path Iron Head, thank you for all the info and inspiration
Ooooh and they make a great looking light ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3jAuCi3-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd3jAuCi3-c)
H2inICE
@ IronHead, did you try connecting a microwave oven transformer's primary in series with the anode?
This is my latest progress of my experiments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h00kMLVy8AM&feature=channel_page
Even though this is a small cell, I am still able to sustain the reaction at 200watts. I have too much electrolyte in the water so that causes the larger consumption of power. I believe the increase in light and sound has to do with resonance somehow. Here is the circuit I built.
http://img37.picoodle.com/img/img37/3/1/10/f_circuitm_c1572bd.jpg
I can not locate a MoT (microwave transformer) anywhere and had to use an oil burner transformer. I get the same results, but the oil burner transformer doesn't like much current at all. If you haven't tried it already, try it. It easily doubled the production and heat for me.
The capacitor bank on the AC side creates a voltage drop in essence limits current. The dimmer.......I don't know what it does to the whole circuit, but it allows me to tune into the best "groove". I am still trying to figure out how to use the secondary of the transformer. Someone suggested spark gaps, but I don't think the oil burner transformer puts out enough volts off the secondary (supposed to be around 9000 to 10000 volts).
Hi,
Recently stumbled across this fascinating chain and am slowly amassing the bits needed to build a cell.
Whilst researching, also found this article:
'Generation of Heat and Products During Plasma Electrolysis'
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTgeneration.pdf
Apologies if it's already been posted, but I thought it may be relevant, and interesting.
Cheers
TC
:) Hi. I also started doing some research into plasma electrolysis, what a fascinating world...
I posted a video of my early experiments on youtube if anyone is interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALFYm_6IlX8
Nice vid there duke,, what is the setup? pm me if ya like.
Quote from: duke007 on July 31, 2009, 03:36:32 PM
:) Hi. I also started doing some research into plasma electrolysis, what a fascinating world...
I posted a video of my early experiments on youtube if anyone is interested.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALFYm_6IlX8
Great job Duke, looks like she is really running clean.
Keep up the good work