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This is the first Double Helix  system I have seen by "Fordenergy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLLRCuHWVq4

I am working on a much larger version along with complete encapsulation of the outside surface of the helix. Here is the first pic of construction.
At the moment all I am doing is making the helix rigid so that it can be urethane coated.

This is sort of a quicky to see how this will  produce . If all is well I will do a nice accurate version

WoW!! That's some impressive production right there!  I wonder if he'll get similar results from plain tap water?  I hope so.  I'm hoping to run my car on straight tap or spring water.  We have a natural spring that feeds our house here so that would be perfect!

I wonder, might that design lend itself to the addition of a coil, within or without, or both, to which one could add a pulsed DC  signal of a kHz or mHz frequency, to enhance the sympathetic vibratory disassociation effect?

Jes a thought, or is that, methinks, why y'all posted this, IronHead?

<grin>

Yer on to sumthin', ain't ye?

Turtle

Yeah . give me a few days  and lets see what happens

Do y'all wind that thang on yer lathe, geared real slow?

I jes got my mouser order.. 4427 mosfet drivers and some 22V 125 A mosfets... ready to slap the snot outa them thar warter mollykuewls!   <insipid grin>

Turtle

I shaped it quick like by hand 3"x16"
The epoxy plumbers putty was temp to hold the shape till I got to this point.

If you need to shield an area from GOOP then this Blue Painters tape works very well as the GOOP does not stick to it.

Yes, WOW! That seems like some excellent production for 8 amps. Interesting how the flat positive and negative surfaces are so distant from each other, yet there seems to be uniform active production on all sides.

How about a smaller double helix down the center of a bigger one, so that these two could fit within a 4" or 5" tube?

Look forward to seeing and learning more on this design.

j

Good stuff, IronHead... now I know what I can do with all them 1" 26 ga strips I got.

Keep it safe.

Turtle

@IronHead,

Your s.s. strips look pretty shiny. Did you do any of the recommended crosshatch sanding on them?

j

once fitted into the pipe housing I will hone sand internally .

I must have missed this thread yesterday.   Congradulations to fordenergy!
  that is definately a step in the right direction ;D    the production seems to
  be uniform throughout the entire cell, now I,m wondering if one could take
  several cells and link them in parallel or one long cell and coil it up,  perhaps
  mimmick fractal geometry.

Thanks for posting this I.H., best news I,ve seen all week ;)

Dirt

Quote from: joe dirt on July 29, 2007, 01:01:20 PM
I must have missed this thread yesterday.   Congradulations to fordenergy!
  that is definately a step in the right direction ;D    the production seems to
  be uniform throughout the entire cell, now I,m wondering if one could take
  several cells and link them in parallel or one long cell and coil it up,  perhaps
  mimmick fractal geometry.

Thanks for posting this I.H., best news I,ve seen all week ;)

Dirt

Joe, interesting you would mention "fractal geometry". Since coming across information on the improved efficiencies and reductions in size of fractal antennas, I too have wondered how, or if, fractal geometries could be applied to the metal surface structures within HHO electrolysis. My sense is there is something to this.

That said, this spiral helix design (and perhaps the addition of a helix within a helix, within a helix (kinda fractal)) with a little added frequency modulations, may be quite the ticket.

I have made small standard type experimental electrolysis units with plates, and have been looking for the right design for one big enough for a car booster. This may be it! Very exciting this.

I appreciate the way IronHead is a do-it-now-builder. It is extremely helpful to see the progress and lessons learned from someone's first-hand work, while slow-pokes like me get there shit together. Thanks, IronHead!

j

Sure is a great find. Waiting for the IronHead pinout on this for the next project.

@ ironhead,

Been following your threads ... 2 idea to share:

1) Will turning the Helix vertical help release more bubbles as they rise, possibley spinning into a vortex along the way?

2) Crazy idea ... would sand blasting the stainless steel, make millions of little pits give the bubbles more oppertunities to form?

Thank you for all your experiments!

Hi everyone and especially IronHead!

I've spent countless hours of reading about electrolysis and especially IHs projects.

I too made a double Helix two days ago. I used two 8mm (~1/3inch) stainless steel straps and (left-)wound them pretty much free-hand around a 14mm copper tube.
To get the two helices fixed, I put the copper tube in again, and rolled it in a rectangle sheet of some kind of flexible yet stiff plastic (had been the protection cover that was placed on my LCD screen at delivery), and put tape on the edge where the plastic overlapped.

The resulting double helix is of about 17mm outer diameter (~2/3inch), 20cm in length, with stainless straps of 8mm width and a spacing between the helices varying between one and 2.5mm. So the thing is way smaller than Fordenergys Helix.

Looks pretty good (sorry, I hope to take some pictures later these days), but when put to the test I wasn't really astonished by the amount of hydrogen produced. Considering the amount of electrode area, it still was pretty good though (I think - well, it's my first electrolysis experience :) ).

My observations in detail were:
1) The thinner the gap between the helices, the more it creates hydroxy. At places where my 'fabrication tolerance' (which is crap!) is at 3mm, only minor amounts are created. I think Fordenergy overcomes this by using a lot of electrolyte - which is not an option for me. I just don't want it ;)

2) Horizontal vs. vertical: As I said, my helices are enclosed in a 'tube'. Placing the double helix vertically releases the gases in a steady stream and the water gets clouded. No or little bubbles at the surface.
Placing it horizontally, the gas would accumulate in the gaps between the helices. When too much gathered at one point, the bubble there jumped to the next gap, taking this gas with it as well, to the next gap etc.. hence you get the gas output as shears, which turn to bubbles on the surface - way better to light up and thus more impressive, but I doubt it's being more efficient.


I came to the conclusion my freehand-wound helices are too unprecise to be used without electrolyte.
So my next step will be to fabricate a pattern on a rod, imagine it as a cast of the inside of a perfect double helix. Two 8mm wide, 1mm deep grooves going round each other with a 1mm wide 'wall' in between.
The idea is to just wrap the stainless straps around the rod, then push a tightly fitting acrylic glass tube over it, then unscrew the rod.
The stainless helices expand a little, so they should nicely press their outside to the inside of the tube.

Hope I've given some ideas... Maybe I can take some pictures of my first try tomorrow, but as I said it's not really satisfying :)

Hi All,

my 2 pennies worth as a newbie.

Looking at all device made the recent months it seems to me Fordenergy's spiral simply has a lot of surface area and and space in between where the current can form hydrogen en oxygen. It is actually the tubular design with holes/spaces in it?

My guess is if you make 1 postive spiral and one smaller negative spiral fitting as a tube in the larger one the results might even be better?

I only have plates of ss so I can't try it but if anyone is making spirals anyway I would be interested to see

Regards,

Primary Helix
Some very interesting results on the quick and dirty
running about half of the Helix Cell. I just could not wait!

First off  at 36 volts with a small amount of KOH the amps shot up to 30
and produced some gas. So I started over with no KOH and
the amps ran at 10 with nothing but water!  The gas output
was about the same as  it was with KOH. Fascinating as this is with
a shinny almost chrome like polished SS and no conditioning of any kind.

This you see here is about 3" of bubbles from the surface in 3 seconds
in  clean filtered tap water.

I am going to have to phase pump this bad boy and see what happens.

Wow. Many great ideas and variations here. The double helix design may be the most efficient yet. Please everyone with ideas on this, Try it. Post it. I'm still a few days behind but will for sure post anything i have. Thanks for the pics IH!

On a side note: I threw together an aarons cell from my extra ss scrap while waiting for my IH edition series cell to dry. It works but, even in the "Widow Maker" config, I cant imagine anything big will come with that design and the leakage involved.

Back to helix. If we all modify and build this we can get it figured out. The spacing, surface space, inside diameter, length, vertical/horizontal, should all effect the output/watts. I think someone will stumble on the optimum config. Gl fellas.

Wow IronHead, this thing is huge :) Seems to produce nicely, keep up the good work!

I'm still going to build alot smaller devices, let's see if the double-helix design works in tiny too... Plus, if it's precisely built, it's easier to try a neutral ss rod/tube in the center at tight spacing to the outer helices.

Btw: You can probably get (small) SS straps for free (or little money) from scraps your local fabricator. Just go and ask :)

Thanks guys
Got about 200 pounds of scrape ,thats where these 316 SS strips came from

QuoteJoe, interesting you would mention "fractal geometry". Since coming across information on the improved efficiencies and reductions in size of fractal antennas, I too have wondered how, or if, fractal geometries could be applied to the metal surface structures within HHO electrolysis. My sense is there is something to this.

Hey J.T. I,ve just started researching fractals and how it applies to the natural world,
  I believe everything we are looking for is already in the natural, here is an interesting
  snippet I,ve taken from a website:

Quote
An understanding of how the fourth dimension includes the infinity of intervals between the other dimensions can be gained by visualizing a few of the better known fractal dimensions (sometimes called Hausdorff dimensions by mathematicians). One of the most famous fractal dimensions lies between the zero dimension and the first dimension, the point and the line. It is created by "middle third erasing" where you start with a line and remove the middle third; two lines remain from which you again remove the middle third; then remove the middle third of the remaining segments; and so on into infinity. What remains after all of the middle third removals is called by Mandelbrot "Cantor's Dust". It consists of an infinite number of points, but no length.

The Cantor's Dust which remains is not quite a line, but is more than a point. The dimension is calculated to have a numerical value of .63 and was discovered by mathematician George Cantor in the beginning of the Twentieth Century. It was considered an anomaly and was avoided by most mathematicians as a "useless monstrosity." In fact this fractal dimension is a part of the real world of the fourth dimension and corresponds to many phenomena of Man and Nature. For instance, Mandelbrot cracked a serious problem for IBM by discovering that the seemingly random errors which always appeared in data transmission lines in fact occurred in time according to the fractal dimension illustrated by Cantor's Dust. Knowing the hidden and mathematically precise order behind the apparently random errors allowed IBM to easily overcome this natural phenomena of data transmission by simple redundancies in the transmission.

Interesting stough indeed, but I don,t want to detract from the thread, just agreeing
  with your statement.

Dirt

P.S. I believe i,ll have to live about 783 years in order to understand it all :P

Is the key to this maybe, to find the common denominator between the works of Schauberger & Keely?
I wonder if one was to use a funnel to wind the Stainless straps around if it would increase or decrease output?

I think the reason this design works so well is the amount of edges.  Far more edge surface than plates or tubes.

 ;) exactly, surface area and room for the current and bubbles to flow

Quote from: lincolninked on July 30, 2007, 02:19:44 PM
I think the reason this design works so well is the amount of edges.  Far more edge surface than plates or tubes.

If it was about edges, one could try to set up a cell with a few meters of square bars (e.g. 4x4mm or so) cut in pieces.
This would give alot more opposing edges than the helix does... Bit of a wiring job though :)
Please see the attachment... quick sketch up with Google SketchUp. ;D

Sorry for interrupting the helix idea of this thread, but I think this would be an easy way to see wether edges are responsible for the output or if it's something else...

Btw: I like the funnel idea. If power is put to the wider side of the vortex, I could imagine an effect like John Aarons experienced with the "WidowMaker" cell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqiadqN5tSQ

Quote from: lincolninked on July 30, 2007, 02:19:44 PM
I think the reason this design works so well is the amount of edges.  Far more edge surface than plates or tubes.

Yes I agree, but the neet thing is less amps with same amount of gas being
  produced, which leads me to believe that geometry will play a key role in
  a system that can self sustain.

dirt
 

I find the rec pillar pic most intriguing... whenever I bought my tubes, on-line metals had clearance deals on 304 half-inch square tubing,  0.026" wall I think, so I bought ~50 feet.

Now the turtle grins from ear to ear.

I be a-wonderin' if'n the best way to charge this might be with screen or perf-plate in the spaces betwixt the pillars, and keep 'em short, <2" tall, mebbe?

Thinking out loud whilst the gears grind...

Turtle

Quote from: europeanhillbilly on July 30, 2007, 06:49:12 PM

Quote from: lincolninked on July 30, 2007, 02:19:44 PM
I think the reason this design works so well is the amount of edges.Ã,  Far more edge surface than plates or tubes.

If it was about edges, one could try to set up a cell with a few meters of square bars (e.g. 4x4mm or so) cut in pieces.
This would give alot more opposing edges than the helix does... Bit of a wiring job though :)
Please see the attachment... quick sketch up with Google SketchUp. ;D

I saw the image of the square 'rods' and it came to me that maby the honeycomb shape would be more suitable

That would give even more area I'd think.   Mebbe, if alignment could be established, the center of the sqaure or hex tube could be penetrated with a rod to create an internal field, as well as the plate field... ala fission reactor core cadium rods, sorta.

Time to stop thinkinn' and start buildin'!

I like Moab's comment I read somewhere- "Just build it and run it- y'all can study it later!" 

Best field connectors fer them square tubes?  Might silver-solder 'em to a perf-plate and boar-hog out the excess.   If I get it done I'll start a new thread and leave this for helix talk.

Turtle

....or how 'bout a double helix made outta these bad boys?  Or even better, instead of rectangular
pillars of ssteel tubes, why not just a bunch of the straight versions of these? Hmmmm...

Embolic Coils

Hey guys,

I just got my double helix "pattern rod" to wind the 8mm stainless straps around. The spacing between the grooves is 1mm. The thing weighs 6lbs :o
See pictures (sorry, took 'em with my crappy mobile phone camera..)

I also made a picture of my not very good freehand wound helices I talked about earlier in this thread.

Off to the workbench, bending some metal.. :D

Sorry people, there won't be any progress on my side today... The straps wind perfectly around the rod (it's ultimatively helpful), but I need a transparent tube with the exact inner diameter, which I can put over my helices (they should expand themselves to the tube and hopefully stick there).

Hopefully I'm getting one tomorrow, gotta ask a local plastics fabricator to make the exact bore.
Or maybe does someone have a better idea?

Btw, the rod is 40mm (1.57inch) in diameter. Would've been pretty expensive if I had to pay for it :D The shop owner really is interested in what we're doing. That's a good thing. :)

Quote from: dlwammo on August 01, 2007, 01:32:47 PM
....or how 'bout a double helix made outta these bad boys?  Or even better, instead of rectangular
pillars of ssteel tubes, why not just a bunch of the straight versions of these? Hmmmm...

Embolic Coils

Now that's an interesting twist. :)  Seriously worth testing.

Quote from: europeanhillbilly on August 01, 2007, 03:33:15 PM
Sorry people, there won't be any progress on my side today... The straps wind perfectly around the rod (it's ultimatively helpful), but I need a transparent tube with the exact inner diameter, which I can put over my helices (they should expand themselves to the tube and hopefully stick there).

Euro, will that not place 50% of the surface of the helix tightly against the tube and so make that surface unproductive, thus reducing output by half? Wouldn't we want the entire helix surrounded by solution?

Cross-hatch sanding the flat surfaces will also bring up production. I also noted that in the original double-helix video the spacing between twists was almost equal to the strip width, as opposed to very close as in your design. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just pointing it out. It will be interesting to see what works best or if there is any difference in production at all.

You do nice work. Look forward to updates from you.

j

@IronHead,

How is your DNA experiment coming?

j

Quote from: JamesThomas on August 01, 2007, 04:21:12 PM
Euro, will that not place 50% of the surface of the helix tightly against the tube and so make that surface unproductive, thus reducing output by half? Wouldn't we want the entire helix surrounded by solution?

I want the current go through the water where plus directly opposes negative. I think the outside of the helix is a point where electrons would leak without splitting the water.

QuoteI also noted that in the original double-helix video the spacing between twists was almost equal to the strip width, as opposed to very close as in your design.

That's correct. I neither know if that's bad or good :D I just thought less spacing would mean less electrolyte... Fordenergys water looks really messy, I want to avoid that ;)

QuoteYou do nice work. Look forward to updates from you.

Thanks, will keep posting here. :)

hmm. i wonder if its possible to heat the steel while on the guide. then unscrew the rod from the steel. it should hold form right? Im not sure leakage is a factor, in this design, as a series cell. in fact it would seem this parallel helix design could not leak at all. with the feilds created and no nuetrals all of the input would be doing work.. Just my guess. I think the spacing, ss width, length, smaller/larger inner diameter will be the things to work out for max output per watts.

Hi Euro,
While you're at it.
Would it be possible to make a smallr spiral fitting into the bigger one. Just to see what that does? ::) And then immerse in the electrolyte vertically. A bit like the tubular cells setups.

Quote from: JamesThomas on August 01, 2007, 04:24:34 PM
@IronHead,

How is your DNA experiment coming?

j

It's coming along. There is a much better design for this thing .
I will let you know soon what I have found here  similar to what was talked about earlier ,about edges. Sealing the thing up the way I have is not the way to go as I have found so far. There is a way it is just more complex then I thought .



IronHead

Whenever I used my Kett-type shears to cut my 26 gauge 304 into strips, I was left with those scrolls of metal displaced by the blade, 'bout 3/32" wide and 4' long.

Methinks there might be a use fer 'em in this helix configuration.   At least they all got a constant width.   Got lots of 'em, too.

Another trip to ALRO netted some square stock that fits nicely inside my sq tube with several thousands clearance, and some 1/2 hex solid stock, all 304.   I was like a turtle in a cricket patch!

Turtle

Congratulations to everyone for working on this.  All great ideas.   The real credit goes to FordEnergy for discovering it.

I also have a project up my sleeve rebounding off this idea.

My projects have taken a back burner of late.  Very busy at my business.  My day girl quit without notice so now I am doing my work and hers also.  Got to work at 8am today and I am just finishing up at 1:30am.  Long days are not fun.  I am also going on vacation soon, so Hydrogen is not getting much attention from me.  I do like the twist concept.   

any new videos of any systems running?

I sent a message with link via youtube to FordEnergy, inviting him here to discuss this with us. Hope he has time to join in.

I have always thought that the positive/negative charged flat-surfaces needed to be in close proximity (as in traditional plate design) to allow for the electrolysis action to occur. The helix design seems to blow that theory away. Very interesting. I'll be posting my experiments with this design here as well, as soon as possible....which could be awhile. Look forward to all you other fine folks' work to be posted here.

j

Not necessarily . The reaction happens at the edges more so then anywhere else on this Cell type . The edges are close together . This is why I say I don't think this type of Cell should be sealed off. The Gas production is not as High as it seems.  It is more of an illusion so far than anything else ,as it is pouring off the edges very fast but little off the surfaces . So we see alot of gas coming from a very small area with alot of sound as well. I think that if the strips were
grove cut the full length  and then wound up , this thing would really start to roll some gas off.

So far this huge Helix Cell is not producing as well as the small S-Cell. But there is room for major improvement , improvements that could make this a top producer if not "The" top
producer.

This Helix Cell is worth alot of attention for further study. I encourage everyone
to build and learn from this design.

If you ain't builden it then you ain't learnen it!
IronHead

Hey hey everyone, got some news!

Just tested my first (acceptable) double helix. I tried it with an RC car battery charger (sticker says output is 7.2v and max. 1.5A - voltmeter reads 9.7 volts - couldn't measure the amps as the charger won't turn on with amp meter in between).
It looks like it's producing a nice amount of gas considering the voltage and possibly the amperage. The RC car battery charger doesn't get as hot as it does when charging a battery pack, so I guess the cell isn't pulling max amps from it.

I did make a video with my mobile phone - unfortunately the quality really is unbearable. It would be useless to show it, as the impression from this video may be far away from what it looks like in reality. However, I'm going to repeat this with a MiniDV cam for decent quality.

I hardly get any large bubbles, but the water gets clouded very quickly. So I have to agree with IronHead that the immense gas production could be an illusion. Still have to try higher voltage (no car battery (+charger) at hand, possibly tomorrow... step by step :) ).

@IronHead: Any videos maybe? :)

QuoteI think that if the strips were grove cut the full length  and then wound up , this thing would really start to roll some gas off.

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. Could you please give an example in text or graphics? I always want to learn from the masters :)

@keithturtle: Any news from the edge tests? The nibblers I know turn the cut metal into a spiral behind them. Is it this what you mean? If yes, imagine a bunch of those spirals packed right next to each other at little spacing, then attach + and - in alternation. Lots of edges...

Soon , I have alot going on . I will get something going on this asap.

Alright, here's my first video on the double helix stuff..

Huge sorry for the delay, but it took me a while to get the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE4dG24yD5g

Need more current, some electrolyte, better spacers and a closed container to run the gas through a bubbler...

Looking good so far .
Also try connecting  leads to opposite ends .

Leads at opposing ends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOM3ZN_KPec

Even I think my english sounds funny  :-\

ok kids, pinch your nose and say ..." This is hydro...ta.."
Johnny has just displayed something, which I'm not sure he even realises is clearly happening on the surface of those plates. The last two minutes of the video especially, visual proof of what happens in an electrolysis cell... or I just overdosed on antihistamines.
I'm just trying to add into the Fray....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF8pN2KRGUk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF8pN2KRGUk)

Thank you europeanhillbilly and very well done.
Now I don't have to show it  lol . You have it done well.
Looking forward to your next experiment .

Fine :)
It still would be awesome if we'd get to see more videos from you. ;)

I used a cool tool called "StaxRip" to convert the DV .avi files to 320x240 xvid suitable for youtube. The quality looks rather good to me for a youtube video.

Next experiment will be destilled water and maybe a new power supply (next thing i really really want - no donator found yet ;) ).


I think it was a good idea to start off with the helix design as first hydroxy experiments. It gives so cool results with little material. The stuff on the video is nothing one has to pay for (except maybe the pattern rod, but it really is the most luxurious way to wind those things :D there are other ways).

And by the way... None of the people i've told about my new hobby turned me down. In fact everyone tries to help where he/she can (with old power supplies, metal scraps, lathe work or anything else). At least we're not a group that faces social disadvantages - the future looks promising :)

Quote from: europeanhillbilly on August 05, 2007, 10:42:57 PM
Fine :)

And by the way... None of the people i've told about my new hobby turned me down. In fact everyone tries to help where he/she can (with old power supplies, metal scraps, lathe work or anything else). At least we're not a group that faces social disadvantages - the future looks promising :)

Folks are alot "greener" these days, without the militant Tree-hugger mindset.  As soon as they realise this is carbonless power, they'll be with y'all to the end.

Ain't had time to unravel them spools of clippings, but it really does seem jes as easy to lay 'em out, concentric/ flat, before I trys the helix-winding.

Yer doin' fine, but that hillbilly accent y'all have need some powerful help, amigo!

<grin>

Keep at it, bud.


Turtle

Yes, thank you so much, Euro, for posting your experiments. Your videos were well done.

The production seems pretty good for no electrolyte and the resulting low amperage draw. As I recall FordEnergy's unit was about 1/4 the size of yours (poor guy ;)), submerged in 10% electrolyte and pulling 8.5 amps.

I like the way you bound the helix in the plastic rods which effected very little surface area.

Look forward to your further work with this.

j

Made a more accurate double helix today, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmGcCFa72i8

Youtube takes quite a long while to process the video once it's uploaded :(

Will get a 24VDC power supply tomorrow which should hold up to 20 Amps.

Thanks for the positive feedback, this means alot to a beginner!

Good vork I mean Work  ;)
Looking good "europeanhillbilly" looking forward to more experimenting .



IronHead

Boy am I glad I started reading this thread.

@EH - Really nice work. Keep experimenting but please, give us some concrete production numbers. Here's an idea for you from my latest video - http://youtube.com/watch?v=mh3gUJNXDZc

One follower of my video series made an interesting point to me privately that I'd like to share with the group. He said "Also, when looking at things like an Ion air cleaner, you notice that the Ions are freed via a sharp pointed pin. One of My ideas is that instead of plates, use a multitude of pins. The energy would flow in more direct lines, and possibly separate the gases more effectively and much faster. Also, the spacings could be very tight. Tho, admittedly, may be harder to manufacture?"

See where I'm going with this? The double helix creates exactly this. Sharp edges at close spacing producing large volumes of gas. What's missing from this design are neutral helixes (N-plates in the S-cell). One or two neutral helixes in between the electrodes might produce wonders. I'm also thinking in terms of pleated plates with sharp edges, facing each other as I mentioned in another thread, AND we don't have to give up using 8 neutral plates between 2 electrodes!

I'm going to try traveling down the pleated plate path (say that three times fast). Please keep going with this helix and let's compare notes. This is getting good.  ;D

ZFF

We discovered OverUnity through watching the YouTube videos.  You are doing great work here!  Been reading all the different topics and getting caught up to speed.  We just finished making a short clip of using an aluminum foil helix and tap water to create hydrogen gas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VWRgqaSKu0

The Indiana Boys

@Boys - Jump right in. I think you missed the point of the double helix though. It's not a spiral within a spiral. All that is is parallel plates. The idea of a double helix is to wind the two electrodes between each other. Think DNA strands.

ZFF

Your work with Helixes seems interesting. It would help to see some good production numbers like output amount of HHO gas and Voltage and Amperage Input to go with the output numbers. My cell ideas seem to be evolving with the introduction of Helixes. Have you tried using a pulse system for your power input? If you get good output using straight power, what do you think you could get using pulsed power instead of straight power input. and to keep the hydrogen flowing out of the cell, have you thought about using a small pump, like a winshield washer pump to cycle the water from the top of the cell to the bottom, thus keeping the flow of HHO gas steady, by the act of forcing the gas away from the helixes and out of the cell. Sorry about the questions, but my mind is going 90 - 0, hehe. That's what I get for having so many ideas and not enough time and $$$ to do them.....

Hi,

Anyone here that knows how to do a proper gas flow measurement? I guess we're gonna need that to compare results. Of course it should be as cheap as possible and fairly accurate.....

Robert

Quote from: dutchy1966 on August 07, 2007, 05:41:25 AM
Hi,

Anyone here that knows how to do a proper gas flow measurement? I guess we're gonna need that to compare results. Of course it should be as cheap as possible and fairly accurate.....

Robert

I think you might be able to draw some inspiration from my latest video. http://youtube.com/watch?v=mh3gUJNXDZc

ZFF

Hey, i'm happy everyone's enjoying the stuff :)

@ZFF: Yup, this looks like a cheap and easy measuring device. Cool stuff! Off to the pet shop! :D

@Draco Rylos: Nope, haven't tried any pulse system yet. C'mon, been working on hydrogenstuff for less than five days in total (not including all the reading beforehand)! :) Maybe some day, yeah...
A water pump is something I had in mind for sooner implementations though.
About your ideas: My mind was jumping too before I did anything. Kept reading "Just built it!" in here all the time, so I just did that. You can learn in minutes from any tiny self-built cell what would take weeks of reading (and understanding) in the forums/on the net.
You're hot on it now - so get some metal scraps and a power supply NOW! ;)

@ZeroFossilFuel

This is a one way air valve used in aquarium air systems . You cn find these at any pet store for a few dollars . You would not use something like this in a car but is a great little safaty for the type of stuff you are doing.I have not had one fail yet.

It looks like it would be handy when you are benchtesting your cell ironhead. good idea. Keep up the good work  :D

Sorry... Been busy, but here's a double-helix I made and tried the other night. 

I do have a video, but I won't be able to post it on YouTube until Wed. evening.   It's made out of two 10" X 0.5" long stainless steel hose clamps.  I named it "HHO"se Clamp Double-Helix. Actual coil dimensions are 3.75" X 1" diameter. Ran 12.5VDC @4.3A using 2 teaspoons of baking soda in 1 gallon of tap water. 

Really weird...  gas generation was mainly from the edges but...  as you'll see in the video, about 75% or more came from the negative helix and terminal. (What am I missing here???) Swapping the terminals just moved it to the opposite helix at the same rate. 

Also working on Part II.  It's a coil based on the embolic coil.  I'll try to get a picture of it posted tomorrow as well as the video from it as well.  I think I might take this one just a little bit further.  But with a twist... LOL

Dan

wow,  :o Interesting use of a couple of metal hose clamps dlwammo. I never would have thought of it myself. Watching videos on youtube, I came to realize that for some reason, the edge is where the current seems to flow instead of through the middle. It may be because of the materials that you used for your double helix.  The way that the hose clamps are made, there is no way for power to go through the centers of the helixes. I think the reason why hydrogen is coming from the negative side is because of the natural state of hydrogen is positive whereas the natural state of oxygen is negative.  That's just me trying to remember high school chem. I'm not really sure, but I'm sure someone like Ironhead, Hartiburton or someone that has more experience could explain it to you. Thats my 2 cents.


Edit: Guys would you tell me if I'm wrong here. I don't want to give the newbie bad information

I had an idea yesterday, I picked up what I thought were two ss springs, cut the end off each spring then basically screw them together, perfect spacing, no guess work.
I then used Heat Shrink on either end to hold them stable.

One problem, they were not SS springs, and I think they were too thick in diameter, not the spring coil dia. but the guage of wire it's made from. I'd say the one I used had 1/8 maybe. I'd use 1/16 guage next time, and make sure it's at least 304...

Decent production, would have been better if it was ss and thiner guage I believe.
input was 12V @ 2.5 - 3.5 amps, yeah it was low current.

-rapttor

Nice to see some more experimenters working on this :)

Well, I got some news:

1) Got a sealed container (proofed non-leaking under water), so I can run the output through a hose through a bubbler!

2) Got a 24V 20A power supply that can be regulated between 22.5 and 29.5 volts or something.


So, my findings are:
1) At 11.2V and 1.3 Amp, I can expect a bubble every second. The water merely gets warmer, can run for hours I'd say.
2) At 22.5V (not measured, I trust the power supply - need another meter), it's pulling at least 3.3 Amps. Going up to 5 Amps when I turn the voltage up. Bubbles come quicker, but not outrageously. Water gets hot after a while, didn't want it to boil.

Conclusion: A helix with such small spacing is not fit for higher voltages. It's just not enough surface area.

Low wattage with moderate output vs. high wattage with a little more output (but not alot).

I'm far away from the output Fordenergys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLLRCuHWVq4) bubbler suggests!

I really need an additional volt meter to see what the higher voltage does to the potential that's staying in the water afterwards.


Anyways, I feel a little stuck with this particular helix at the moment. So, guess what? I'll get some more SS strips, and make kind of a double double helix. A bigger double helix fitting over a smaller one, with parallel turns. This time with a little more spacing.
The result should be twice as much edges of course, plus the opposing surfaces of the inner and outer helix.
Of course this could harm the concept of having edges, but well... we'll see.

Btw, those strips of my current helix are roughly equivalent to the area of a 3x3inch plate EACH (so 2x 3x3inch worth of material).

Here's the video for the "HHO"se Clamp Double-Helix I promised.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mM8xEVmcuys (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mM8xEVmcuys)

I'll try and get it's even more "Twisted Sister" on tomorrow....

Dan

You know what really intrigues me? How two plates of the exact same material can become molecularly polarized in a solution of electrolyte by applying a voltage so that, once voltage is removed, a residual charge remains as if you had dissimilar metals in solution.

Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on August 09, 2007, 07:49:00 AM
You know what really intrigues me? How two plates of the exact same material can become molecularly polarized in a solution of electrolyte by applying a voltage so that, once voltage is removed, a residual charge remains as if you had dissimilar metals in solution.

True, the same is happening on my helix design.
Now, this may sound like a real newbie question, but does this happen with other cell designs too? I guess it does?

I'm relatively new to the HHO world, but extremely interested in all forms of clean, renewable, money saving, planet saving (not in that order :)) energy. I find it refreshing that the same sort of people are taking the lead and experimenting themselves, and with somewhat promising results.

My question is, EBH: With the gas you are producing at 1amp(call it 1 unit), could you create 1 unit or more of work using the 1 unit produced?

If the answer was yes, then congrats on the greatest discovery since the incarnation of man. I'm rather hoping however, that the answer is a "maybe". Also interested to hear others thoughts.

Regards
NssB

Quote from: NssB on August 09, 2007, 08:28:08 AM
My question is, EBH: With the gas you are producing at 1amp(call it 1 unit), could you create 1 unit or more of work using the 1 unit produced?

I hope by EBH you mean EHB and thus addressing me, so I'll give a short answer: Most likely not. No overunity happening here.

QuoteI hope by EBH you mean EHB and thus addressing me

Apologies yes, minor typo ;)

My question was inevitably rhetorical in nature, otherwise I'm guessing you be dead by now   ::)

Does anyone have the figures which show the gas flow rate versus power inputs required in order for OU to be achieved with HHO?

Regards
NssB

QuoteYou know what really intrigues me? How two plates of the exact same material can become molecularly polarized in a solution of electrolyte by applying a voltage so that, once voltage is removed, a residual charge remains as if you had dissimilar metals in solution.

Could this effect not be caused by the time taken for the electrolyte to return to polar equilibrium?
i.e Negative/Positive Ions "mingling" again after voltage is removed.

Just a thought...

NssB

It sits in a charged state for a good long time. I think days. So electrolyte polarization is not the most likely answer. Also, regarding efficiency, conventional electrolysis is certainly not overunity. Even so, it is much closer to it than say an Internal Combustion Engine. When applied to the ICE, total system efficiency can be increased, all with conventional application of technology.

Ultimately, what we're after here is the key to unlock the secret to water splitting efficiency - Very low power in to get very large amounts of usable energy out. We believe it's possible. That is our goal.

Zero Fossil Fuel

Exactly, water adds energy to the system so we probably can already run ICEs on electrolysis.  I mean, it doesn't take THAT muh gas to run an engine.

Quote from: europeanhillbilly on August 09, 2007, 08:06:22 AM

Quote from: ZeroFossilFuel on August 09, 2007, 07:49:00 AM
You know what really intrigues me? How two plates of the exact same material can become molecularly polarized in a solution of electrolyte by applying a voltage so that, once voltage is removed, a residual charge remains as if you had dissimilar metals in solution.

True, the same is happening on my helix design.
Now, this may sound like a real newbie question, but does this happen with other cell designs too? I guess it does?

Hi
Not in copmpetition to the duble Helix but As an usefull idea led me introduce a link to
a company.This kind op wire can be find easy all over the world.They have it with sharp edges ans made from Stainless steel too. By the way:my english is very lousy and i hope ,that nobody care .
Type:S-Draht-Rollen, Natodraht - Typ SZ
Link:http://www.rotec-berlin.de/r_frames.htm?zaun/drahtgitter/natodraht.html

helmut

A series of "in the shop" videos talking about Browns gas:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7782110040928277360&q=free+energy&total=3871&start=610&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7



Dirt

@helmut
That's where I'm heading with double-helix #3.  I'm waiting for some stainless orthodontic wire. Square with sharp edges if anyone whose had those in their mouth can attest to... 

Going to wind a pair up like a bifilar coil as close as possible using a lexan holder so that the coil will also be as flat as well.  I'm hoping that between the front side and back side parallel wires I can also get some interaction between the front and back with each other.  Next step will probably be to twist each wire individually, and then wrap them the same way as before.   Should be interesting.

Dan

Hmm good stuff, this nato wire. Thanks helmut! When I see some, maybe I grab a piece to play...

Looking forward to your work too, dlwammo.

Some news on my side too... I tried to rebuild Fordenergys DH, at least with the same amount of winding, approx. same spacing etc...
First setup I tried NaOH with, which I found as drain cleaner in my shelf...
And guess what? Brought it up to 8Amps, the 12v power supply probably broke down to 9-10V (happened the last time when I put higher load on it - will get another multimeter hopefully this weekend!) and got a pretty good amount of bubbles coming up!

So, as soon as I get my hands on another multimeter (don't wanna drive to the next electronics store), I'll post another video on youtube.

IronHead, anything new from your DH cell?

An interesting article dealing with the helix form:

http://www.physorg.com/news105869123.html

Dirt

Quote from: joe dirt on August 11, 2007, 08:07:53 PM
An interesting article dealing with the helix form:

http://www.physorg.com/news105869123.html

Dirt

Interesting indeed, thanks!
I'm thinking there's another crucial part to a good helix design. My first ones were producing fine, but still not close to Fordenergys Helix ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=sLLRCuHWVq4 ). So I was looking a bit deeper into helices in lifeforms, and I found that alot of natures creatures are using phi (1.618... golden section, 'Fibonacci' etc. - google for it :) ) as a basement for the outcome in form. The DNA, snails, sunflowers.. I'm sure you'll find more examples.

So, I took a screenshot of Fordenergys youtube video, and estimated (well - the tolerance of his helix is also pretty much 'estimated') the relation between one full turn and the diameter of the helix. Turns out this seems to be in the range of 1.7 - kinda close to phi...

I'm really guessing here, there could be something to it.. But I could also be horribly wrong :)

Next thing to try: Build a helix with exactly Fibonacci relation. Hmm hope I can do that...

Found IH's HV HHO thread last week, read it, built it, tested it and then I saw this thread and was blown away by the production. Put one together today and took her out for a spin. Like what I see. Thanks Iron Head for sharing with us, this is some good stuff. I do not have a  background in electronics but would like to understand  more so that I could pulse this thing. Here is a link to my first test of the double helix. Will put together a chamber tomorrow so that I can submerge the whole thing.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi136.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq176%2Fleakfree%2Fth_MVI_0039-1.jpg&hash=b4c62ea1b2f364a3e37bc98f9a353d369427cca9) (http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/leakfree/?action=view&current=MVI_0039-1.flv)
The sound you hear in the background besides the hum of the charger is a locust. I did this on the tail gate of my truck this afternoon. And "no", the Fram oil filter is not a part of this test. Ha!

Not to be off topic, but I could use all the opinion I can with a cell I am working on, please read my post with the pics on
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2057.msg44015.html#msg44015
There seem to be a few people on this thread not on that one, and like I said I could use some input.

Looking at the high voltage design by IH and the respective output of the cell, I'm inclined to think a +n-n+ (Is that a Pentahelix?) would produce extremely well. On the flipside, if IH could implement his setup with the Helix form we could be in for some big surprises....

I'd love to be able to implement these ideas myself, but do not have the means/space/time at the moment.
Hopefully soon though :)

Good luck all

NssB

Here is a cool video to make an fairly accurate gas measurement tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0FGGDJC1d8

Enjoy.

Fine piece of work, there, leakfree;
Yer in fer a great ride on this HHO stuff.

Welcome aboard!

Turtle

Hey Yall,

Sid?s measuring device is nice but I like ZFF?s better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh3gUJNXDZc

Greasy001 (It ain?t easy being Greasy)

It ain't easy but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks! Turtle Man, i feel like i'm just groping arround in the dark but it's fun. Going to work on multiple double helix coils in one cell next. Also getting stuff together for a geet. Man nobody has that 1 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee. Got some ordered but who knows when. LF

Hi all,

I didn?t realize this idea would take off like it has, but you all have done it justice. I had to take a break from HHO production experiments due to an implosion. Ironically due to the double helix design. I got such great results from the DH that I decided to go to a 304 SS wire design in the test cell. The results prompted me to increase the Amperage used, so I jumped to 120 Volt DC with unlimited Amps. The production was unreal until wires heated up and stated to return to their original form (A straight wire). The + and - leads touched in the HHO stream and the implosion was enough to bring the family running to my back room. Luckily I had a guardian angle looking out for me the Sodium Hydroxide solution missed my face by about an inch. The cell was completely destroyed and my wife banned me from the house LOL. Take heed if your using springs, wires, strips of SS, or your separation media; in the helix design heat will make your helix unwind.

So what have I been up to since my heart skipped a beat, well I named the new cell phoenix and I am working on a 4 tubular cell within a cell design to create a series setup to combat the heat. I will run 4 helixes in acrylic tubes within a main cell and I am using 1/2 in acrylic for the outer body instead of 1/4 in. I will post new videos when I can decide how to create the new helixes exactly the same. I like what one you did with the steel rod for a template but I think all of the connection material is interfering with the electric and magnetic fields that are created within the helix. The 3 I have made all are connected at each end allowing the material to flow unimpeded from beginning to end. I have used what you have seen in the video which is 301 SS I think it?s a garbage can I (Borrowed) from my wife. I have another helix made from the 1/4 in strip left by my nibbler, this is 316 ss and is held at each end by nylon screws (this one is the most stable). And the 304 ss wire wound to a DH design.

Thank you all for inviting me to the forum and I look forward to experimenting again after I move to my outside shop.

Thank you,

Ford Energy
AKA James

Hey, James (FordEnergy), what a great surprise to see you here. Be sure and post pics and or videos of your new stuff.

I am definitely going to do some work with this helix idea of yours as soon as I can.

Originally, how did you come up with the helix?

So glad you joined us here. This is a great little forum.

j

Quote from: JamesThomas on August 22, 2007, 10:15:23 PM
Hey, James (FordEnergy), what a great surprise to see you here. Be sure and post pics and or videos of your new stuff.

Originally, how did you come up with the helix?


j

~Thomas

I started out by trying to replicate what Stan Meyer had started, so I read everything I could find on him and his work. He was a faithful Christian and had told how he prayed for the answer to our fossil fuel problem. After he got a response to his prayers he went forward with the water cell and the rest is history.

I am a faithful Christian myself and prayed for god?s enlightenment on the current electrolysis hydrogen production techniques and how they could be improved. I immediately got an image of a double helix. So I kept going with my experiments and one day I had a pile of coils from my nibbler after cutting some stainless and it all came together.

So to answer your question god just showed it to me and I put one together and posted it, then you guys grabbed it and WOW look what?s being done in just a short amount of time it's great. So going forward I hope to stay in this vein and watch what everyone else is doing and hopefully one of us will put together the right combination to help all of us get away from fossil fuels.

I hope this answers your question, I must say again I?m really excited about what has been done here and I can?t wait to see what comes next.

~Ford Energy

dlwammo,
If you do a bilolar winding, you should think about using thin plastic garden meshing to separate the windings. You can get it about half a mil thick and the current will pass sraight through the holes yet isolate pos from neg.

Cheers,

Runningbear

@Runningbear
Thanks, I may try that on the first flat plate.  I've played with the concept in a rather crude holder (electric switch cover with the large rectangular cutout) and it really does work well.  I've wound another using a figure-eight over the same holder, looping the wires front to back and that seems to work even better.   Don't know how well the mesh would work there.  Someone suggested to me to use some fine tooth hair combs.  That's probably better than my crude holder until I can get the new one done  (Hopefully this week...)

@FordEnergy, thanks for the reply.

If humble prayer is your doorway to inspiration, then by all means keep it up (as if you need me to tell you).

Though the helix was very small (smaller even than the video made it appear) your initial video seemed to show output that was very impressive. Another interesting thing is how coils and spirals keep showing up in many different avenues of energy research. It's not surprising this has got some of us wanting to work further with this concept.

Accurate gas-production-measurement is going to be very important here as we all try different methods of improvement.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what comes of this one.  If all goes well I'll have begone some work on your idea (inspiration) this week and have something of interest to post here for you and others.

j

The YouTube video is very impressive.  The sound when it kicked in was quite loud. 
If you look closely at one of the helix windings, it 'looks' like copper? or am I seeing things?

Steve

It is just us in this universe, thats why we have to work to find better ways, it is upto us, I have no problems with folk believing in a God, but statements like the one below almost make me want to down tools and say screw it all!

Quote
He was a faithful Christian and had told how he prayed for the answer to our fossil fuel problem. After he got a response to his prayers he went forward with the water cell and the rest is history.

Quote from: RunningBare on September 01, 2007, 10:52:52 AM
It is just us in this universe, thats why we have to work to find better ways, it is upto us, I have no problems with folk believing in a God, but statements like the one below almost make me want to down tools and say screw it all!

Quote
He was a faithful Christian and had told how he prayed for the answer to our fossil fuel problem. After he got a response to his prayers he went forward with the water cell and the rest is history.

Well RunningBare, I honestly do understand your problems with this kind of language; however, rather than allow a few words to sway you, how about the reality behind all the research that is being stimulated because of Stan Myers' work. In other words: we can consciously choose to feed the negative or the positive. The world could use more positive feeders, don't ya think?

And I enjoyed Ford Energy's upfront and honest answer to my question. That tells you a lot about him as a person and a valid researcher.

That's how I see it, anyway.

j

I share in the inspiration, and am thoroughly enjoying the ride!


It's great to be on board here!

Turtle

Quote from: leakfree on August 11, 2007, 11:00:17 PM
Found IH's HV HHO thread last week, read it, built it, tested it and then I saw this thread and was blown away by the production. Put one together today and took her out for a spin. Like what I see. Thanks Iron Head for sharing with us, this is some good stuff. I do not have a  background in electronics but would like to understand  more so that I could pulse this thing. Here is a link to my first test of the double helix. Will put together a chamber tomorrow so that I can submerge the whole thing.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi136.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq176%2Fleakfree%2Fth_MVI_0039-1.jpg&hash=b4c62ea1b2f364a3e37bc98f9a353d369427cca9) (http://s136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/leakfree/?action=view&current=MVI_0039-1.flv)
The sound you hear in the background besides the hum of the charger is a locust. I did this on the tail gate of my truck this afternoon. And "no", the Fram oil filter is not a part of this test. Ha!

Most AC powered battery chargers put out half wave recterfied AC, so you are pulsing at 60 cycles per second.  Battery acts as a big Capactor, but cell would not.
GK

Quote from: RunningBare on September 01, 2007, 10:52:52 AM
It is just us in this universe, thats why we have to work to find better ways, it is upto us, I have no problems with folk believing in a God, but statements like the one below almost make me want to down tools and say screw it all!

Quote
He was a faithful Christian and had told how he prayed for the answer to our fossil fuel problem. After he got a response to his prayers he went forward with the water cell and the rest is history.

Hi Running Bare,

This is a bit off subject but what I said about Stan Meyer you can see for yourself in his videos. As for my inspiration I can come in here and tote I had this great brain storm and came up with the idea myself but that would be misleading and at worse a lie. If we start lying about our work here we wouldn?t be any better than everyone who says this technology doesn?t work. And I?m sure those same people would love to see groups like this infighting and deceiving each other. So you may dislike my words and how I give credit to my god but that should not affect your personal work in any manner. I say take what you like and leave the rest. But as for me I will give credit to god when god gave me inspiration and also to anyone else whose ideas forward my research. I truly hope you do not give up on your work due to me, but the decision is yours. I can only be as honest as I can how you interpret that honesty is up to you.

As a side note I'm not looking for an argument of faith, there are other venues for that. So I truly hope this does not turn into a religious battle. And we can get on with the work at hand  making HHO  ;D

Ford_Energy

Alright... who is going to do it?

Who is going to dunk a Flossie Tendon chew in electrolyte and energize that bad boy?

It is just too tempting... every time I see that picture of the chew, I think of this thread.

Gotta check all the angles you know.  ;D


[One of us to reporter: "The answer was right in front of us the whole time!"]

The more edges the better?

Turtle

Nothing since Sept... what's up guys? 

cheers,
HTH

Still nothing since September, Hellooooooo... (echo bouncing around the empty room)

Quote from: bosr on December 04, 2007, 12:17:53 AM
Still nothing since September, Hellooooooo... (echo bouncing around the empty room)

I just found about the success people have had with the Double Helix design, but I am surprised that this forum just seemed to have stopped.
The question is, is it still considered one of the most efficient ways to produce Hydrogen.

John

Hi guys

Just before everyone gets over-excited, has anyone actually measured the amount of gas produced by a double helix and compared it with the same power through, say, plates or tubes, or is everyone simply going on visual observations?

I'm not convinced it is really anything impressive when you look at the current through the cell.  I might be wrong but my little tube test cell produces good gas from 0.5 amp. If I cranked it up to 8 amps that too would look extremely impressive.

Someone needs to make some careful comparisons between the double helix and other configurations under similar conditions and actually measure the gas output.  It may simply be that double helix shape creates more turbulence in the electrolyte as gases are evolved, and hence is visually deceptive - after all you can't see as clearly between closely spaced plates or tubes.

Has this post died!

Just read all the pages and got here, no more posts, how disappointing.
I need to know what sort of output ppl got before I spend some time and effort on this!

Be a DOer  and just do it. This may be the cheapest quickest Cell you could ever build.

thanks  Iron Head I most definately will   Chet

Looks good, but one suggestion.  You should consider wrapping the positive and negative side by side (similar to a capacitor)  Your electrodes one on top of each other, are going to produce gas at the closest points.  Your wasting the flat surface of the coils thats.  Utilize as much of the metal as you can to produce the most gas. 

You are on the right track keeping the coil vertical.  I agree 100% with vertical designs.  Plate designs trap bubbles and don't use the bubbles vertical motion to assist moving other bubbles away from the surface of the electrodes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsNUgwcDrbU   you thoughts on my design, please.

Thanks
DallasGoldBug