http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMMonly.html
both linear and rotational motors works
read carefully.
it is logical to reason (only first look) that two magnets will attract shield two times as hard as one magnet. even in that situation
2* Emag(left side) - 1* Emag(right side)= 1* Emag AT THE SHAFT (INPUT ENERGY).
This means i need exactly ammount of energy to overcome ONE magnet at the input.
As a result of invested energy (shielding removed) I get 2 * Repulsion Emag at the OUTPUT (piston).
therefore my device operates at COP=2 - some friction => COP=1.8 which is still FE
You all (i'm little dissapointed) overlooked one property of permeable materials it is satturation (of shielding)
If shield is satturated to maximum it will "REPEL" !?! (bounce) from magnet to the place on magnet where is less satturated and field density is lower. You don't believe this see this very simple experiment I assure You that this is not happening cause of induced current in permeable object.
the experiment: http://www.geocities.com/wizkycho/index_files/magexp.avi
back to linear:
So if one magnet is sufficient to satturate shield (with respect to its thickness) to it's satturation knee there is no place for additional magnetic field from the other magnet niether to attract nor to repel that shielding.
Callibration doesn't have to be that precise and can be done by 0.5mm gradient (for thickness of shield).
in worst case (unsuitably thick steel) you'll get? 2:1 for OUTPUT Yeah !
if you experiment with different thickness of shield you are in 7:1 range
I think with this we have depleted all open questions for linear motor
What Ya think 'bout Rotational.... cmon I dare you . I think it is very very powerfull
there is an error in COP estimation. It is well beyond 14.
Cmon Brainstormers
@wizkycho
I think I understood. The permeable rotor is already saturated by the statormagnets before to rotor with the magnets is inserted. So when the permeable steel is moved the rotormagnets move not because they are attracted to the steel (they can't, its saturated) but they moved only because they were repelled by the outer magnets when they are not longer covered by the steel.
Maybe the rotormagnets will begin to swing between the two repelling zones at the ends of the steel covered zone if the repellation is to strong. What do you think?
M.
Quote from: m668004 on June 05, 2005, 03:08:11 PM
@wizkycho
I think I understood. The permeable rotor is already saturated by the statormagnets before to rotor with the magnets is inserted. So when the permeable steel is moved the rotormagnets move not because they are attracted to the steel (they can't, its saturated) but they moved only because they were repelled by the outer magnets when they are not longer covered by the steel.
Maybe the rotormagnets will begin to swing between the two repelling zones at the ends of the steel covered zone if the repellation is to strong. What do you think?
M.
if you are refering to rotational design:
why would it swing, does it have AC current applied somewhere or the shaft is frictionless!?!
1.there is shielding and no matter how inprecise you make it will represent "walley" of mag field strenght so rotor will rest where this "walley"(lowest repel) is.
2.You can make better (thicker shielding) that just very slightly attracts Output rotor magnets, so the walley becomes
abbys and Output rotor shurely must go and stay where that shielding is.
3. Please observe that this shielding is U (fliped hor.) shaped so both NORTH vectors (from Output rotor magnets and ring mags.) goes to attractional SOUTH (on ring mags.) through that U (fliped hor.) shield
SO THE SHIELD CAN BE VERY THIN AND STILL SECURING ABBYS FOR OUTPUT ROTOR MAGNET TO REST THERE.(if shielding is resting)
No swinging sorry !
THIS STILL WORKS VERY VERY GOOD, COME AND STOP IT.
Next...
Here is whats going to happen.
The inner rotor (magnet) will follow the outer rotor (permeable steel) with exactly motion.
The inner rotor is repelled on both sides with same F - so it will do nothing. After mounting the shield it will head it, because 1. its magnets are attracted by the steel or 2. the steel provides the only "magnetic free area" in this circle.
As the shield is moved the magnets will follow it.
-- Andi.
Perhaps we can generate electricity directly with the movable shielding, when we replace the inner magnetic rotor by a coil, a toroidal coil in this case. The magnets and the coil are static, only the shielding moves, so a periodicly changing magnetic field is created and a current in the coil is induced - without moving the magnets or the coil! The big question is now: will the rotation of the shielding slowed down by lenz-law?
M.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 05, 2005, 04:28:19 PM
Here is whats going to happen.
The inner rotor (magnet) will follow the outer rotor (permeable steel) with exactly motion.
The inner rotor is repelled on both sides with same F - so it will do nothing. After mounting the shield it will head it, because 1. its magnets are attracted by the steel or 2. the steel provides the only "magnetic free area" in this circle.
As the shield is moved the magnets will follow it.
-- Andi.
I won't answer to this but I can say (scince you start GUESSING) that You are very very far or to fast in undrstanding
magnet phisycs.
Please Correct Yourself.
Maybe You want slower animation !?!
Once Again
Green(with brown) - input rotator (little enrgy only for friction)
Yellow - output rotator capable of Full repel action (if under max load - why wouldn't it be)
Magnet at outer rotator just MUST (high energy output) follow shield (little energy input)
is it so hard to see. Cmon people there are only TWO ROTORS.
Look again
Quote from: m668004 on June 05, 2005, 04:54:07 PM
Perhaps we can generate electricity directly with the movable shielding, when we replace the inner magnetic rotor by a coil, a toroidal coil in this case. The magnets and the coil are static, only the shielding moves, so a periodicly changing magnetic field is created and a current in the coil is induced - without moving the magnets or the coil! The big question is now: will the rotation of the shielding slowed down by lenz-law?
M.
scince there is now relevant change in field of the shield you induce very little or nothing.
sorry !
Am I right ?
@wizkycho
@ooandioo
I think its important for wizkychos device, that the magnetic rotor is under load, so it resists an easy moving. If under these circumstances the shielding moves, than the magnetic rotor will and must follow with the same speed and more energy output than input is arrived.
M.
Quote from: wizkycho on June 05, 2005, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: ooandioo on June 05, 2005, 04:28:19 PM
Here is whats going to happen.
The inner rotor (magnet) will follow the outer rotor (permeable steel) with exactly motion.
The inner rotor is repelled on both sides with same F - so it will do nothing. After mounting the shield it will head it, because 1. its magnets are attracted by the steel or 2. the steel provides the only "magnetic free area" in this circle.
As the shield is moved the magnets will follow it.
-- Andi.
I won't answer to this but I can say (scince you start GUESSING) that You are very very far or to fast in undrstanding
magnet phisycs.
Please Correct Yourself.
Maybe You want slower animation !?!
Once Again
Green(with brown) - input rotator (little enrgy only for friction)
Yellow - output rotator capable of Full repel action (if under max load - why wouldn't it be)
Magnet at outer rotator just MUST (high energy output) follow shield (little energy input)
is it so hard to see. Cmon people there are only TWO ROTORS.
Look again
Sure - i understand the system. I only explained it in my words to help understand...
In my opinion, thats an idea worth spending time for. Any more details for building it? Are you going to build it?
-- Andi
Quote from: ooandioo on June 05, 2005, 05:34:42 PM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 05, 2005, 05:14:25 PM
Quote from: ooandioo on June 05, 2005, 04:28:19 PM
Here is whats going to happen.
The inner rotor (magnet) will follow the outer rotor (permeable steel) with exactly motion.
The inner rotor is repelled on both sides with same F - so it will do nothing. After mounting the shield it will head it, because 1. its magnets are attracted by the steel or 2. the steel provides the only "magnetic free area" in this circle.
As the shield is moved the magnets will follow it.
-- Andi.
I won't answer to this but I can say (scince you start GUESSING) that You are very very far or to fast in undrstanding
magnet phisycs.
Please Correct Yourself.
Maybe You want slower animation !?!
Once Again
Green(with brown) - input rotator (little enrgy only for friction)
Yellow - output rotator capable of Full repel action (if under max load - why wouldn't it be)
Magnet at outer rotator just MUST (high energy output) follow shield (little energy input)
is it so hard to see. Cmon people there are only TWO ROTORS.
Look again
Sure - i understand the system. I only explained it in my words to help understand...
In my opinion, thats an idea worth spending time for. Any more details for building it? Are you going to build it?
-- Andi
well I didn't mean to be rude. but I got impression that you thought about this design with only 1% of your barin.
You all must Know that there has not been more powerfull OU device based on permanent magnets that surely works
than this one..
Quote from: wizkycho on June 05, 2005, 02:32:26 PM
http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMMonly.html
@wizkycho
When you move the shield you wil have to use more force, cause you want to move the shield
also out of the attraction of the rotor magnet.
So EnergyIN is higher than you think !
So I don?t know, if this is really better than the linear version.
Regards, Stefan.
The different forces that attract here are hard to imagine...
Don't you think that there also is an attraction between the shield and the inner magnets, when inner magnets are forced to follow the shield cycling?
This force would count towards the F needed to rotate the shield...
Mh, need a practical sample.
-- Andi
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 05, 2005, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 05, 2005, 02:32:26 PM
http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMMonly.html
Right what i say...
-- Andi
@wizkycho
When you move the shield you wil have to use more force, cause you want to move the shield
also out of the attraction of the rotor magnet.
So EnergyIN is higher than you think !
So I don?t know, if this is really better than the linear version.
Regards, Stefan.
I think the attraction between the shielding and the inner magnets are not the problem, because the inner magnets move always parallel to the shielding and not perpendicular. Look at Butch Lafontes Device. A problem would appear if the inner magnets were moved totally out of the shielding but that can't happen because of the repelling forces of the outer magnets.
M.
In God's sake, Wizk, WHY the rotor's magnet will follow the "screen"? System is closed, they (rotor and screen) just attract each other and all system will stop.
"THIS STILL WORKS VERY VERY GOOD, COME AND STOP IT".
Even if you buy a ticket for me, I won't go to waste time, couse it will not (and can not) ?work this way.
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 05, 2005, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 05, 2005, 02:32:26 PM
http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMMonly.html
@wizkycho
When you move the shield you wil have to use more force, cause you want to move the shield
also out of the attraction of the rotor magnet.
So EnergyIN is higher than you think !
So I don?t know, if this is really better than the linear version.
Regards, Stefan.
Please If you can read my start post at this topic (satturation) and view the movie you will se that saturated steel not only doesn't attract but can even repel from magnet. Please try this simple experiment and give it a good thinking...
If You(and others) ?are right then washer (in experiment) should stay where the magnetic field is strongest in CENTER - BUT IT IS NOT SO IT BOUNCES. this is very important.
WHEN SHIELD IS SATTURATED SAY WITH FIELD OF ONE MAGNET THAT STEEL OBJECT WILL TRY TO ESCAPE FROM
MORE MAG FIELDS...
If I was very opportunistic I can say that Output Rotor (it's repel from ring) will push shield and then following it even without any input. but that would require annoing calibration thickness of shield which is really not neccessery.
rotor type design is better bacasue steel can be thinner cause of it's shape that goes to the other side where south is.
If You and all want I will build it but I can only offer half of the price needed to be build.
Quote from: Light on June 05, 2005, 06:09:30 PM
In God's sake, Wizk, WHY the rotor's magnet will follow the "screen"? System is closed, they (rotor and screen) just attract each other and all system will stop.
"THIS STILL WORKS VERY VERY GOOD, COME AND STOP IT".
Even if you buy a ticket for me, I won't go to waste time, couse it will not (and can not) work this way.
@Light
QuoteIn God's sake, Wizk, WHY the rotor's magnet will follow the "screen"? System is closed, they (rotor and screen) just attract each other and all system will stop.
The rotor magnets will follow the shielding because the shielding moves. Don't forget: that's not a selfrunner. It needs a permanent energy input. You have to rotate the shielding permanently. And then the rotormagnets MUST follow because the place behind the shielding is the only place with little or no repelling forces.
M.
I don't know, but if there is an attraction between the shield and the inner magnets, any movement of the shield will cause the inner magnets to follow (mainly) and this needs power. If there is no attraction between the shield and the inner magnets, then only the repel force of the outer magnets and the inner magnets will cause the following and the system would work.
-- Andi
@wizkycho
Quotethe magnetic field is strongest in CENTER
I'm not sure about this. Look at the picture. Both the flux density and the density of the fieldlines are greater on the outer edges of the magnet.
M.
Quote from: m668004 on June 05, 2005, 06:25:02 PM
@Light
QuoteIn God's sake, Wizk, WHY the rotor's magnet will follow the "screen"? System is closed, they (rotor and screen) just attract each other and all system will stop.
The rotor magnets will follow the shielding because the shielding moves. Don't forget: that's not a selfrunner. It needs a permanent energy input. You have to rotate the shielding permanently. And then the rotormagnets MUST follow because the place behind the shielding is the only place with little or no repelling forces.
M.
BRAVOOOOOOOOO !
Even if there is Output Rotor attract Input Rotor (very thick shield,poorly constructed) sittuation is this
I will INPUT Output rotor - input rotor (shield) attraction energy =Eattraction
but I'll get for free Repel energy between outer ring magnet and output rotor =Erepel
therefore on input rotor = Eattraction
on output rotor I'll get = Eattraction + Erepulsion and we are still very much over 100%this is really the worst case scenario.
Thx
Quote from: m668004 on June 05, 2005, 06:35:29 PM
@wizkycho
Quotethe magnetic field is strongest in CENTER
I'm not sure about this. Look at the picture. Both the flux density and the density of the fieldlines are greater on the outer edges of the magnet.
M.
Quote from: m668004 on June 05, 2005, 06:35:29 PM
@wizkycho
Quotethe magnetic field is strongest in CENTER
I'm not sure about this. Look at the picture. Both the flux density and the density of the fieldlines are greater on the outer edges of the magnet.
M.
It wasn't shown in video but washer (you can see) wan't stay in center when applyed horizontally, but stands perfectly
still in center when placed 90deg. allso You can notice that half of washer (when bounced) stick to magnet the other half stays in air.
SO FOR THIS BEHAVIOUR OF FERROMAGNETIC MATERIAL IS RESPONSIBLE DENSITY OF THE FLUX DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO IT'S SATTURATION CAPABILITYES.
"that's not a selfrunner. It needs a permanent energy"
- No use to discuss it then. I thought it's OU site...
Quote from: Light on June 05, 2005, 06:56:10 PM
"that's not a selfrunner. It needs a permanent energy"
- No use to discuss it then. I thought it's OU site...
It gives much much more energy OUT than the INPUT is. It is up to You will You close the loop and make it to work in
OU mode, just for You.
Light, the concept that one idea leads to another completely eludes you doesn't it?
@m668004
Okay, you are right,
if you look at the video from Mark Olsen,
then you can see, that one rotor can move from one end
to the other end of the plate pretty easily, so as long as the shield does
not move too much out of the rotor magnets "face",
then it will probably work.
ALso I guess the rotor magnet will pretty much follow the shield and will not
have such a big lag as in the animation !
Regards, Stefan.
"Light, the concept that one idea leads to another completely eludes you doesn't it?"
- Yes, if you call "idea" what you say...
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 05, 2005, 07:10:46 PM
@m668004
Okay, you are right,
if you look at the video from Mark Olsen,
then you can see, that one rotor can move from one end
to the other end of the plate pretty easily, so as long as the shield does
not move too much out of the rotor magnets "face",
then it will probably work.
ALso I guess the rotor magnet will pretty much follow the shield and will not
have such a big lag as in the animation !
Regards, Stefan.
Animation is made like for linear with maximum allowed load - Output rotor doesn't move until it overstrenghts (with it's repel) resistance from load.
Again bout attraction:
If really I have to input Attraction Energy (between Output rotor and shielding rotor)
this attraction energy is transfered to output
And I get Eattraction + FREE Erepulsion which is again FE that can be easily made to slose loop.
If load is smaller (than max. allowed) then Output Rotor would sunner start to follow shield.
Animation shows behaviour of motor at maximum allowed load.
Correct me when i'm wrong.
The inner magnet will follow the shield "abyss" because of repel to the outer magnets. But: The shield steal will also went towards the highest magnetic attraction and this position is where outermagnets+innermagnets provide strongest magnetic strenght. The further away the shield moves from this point, the more energy is used to move it.
Am i ignoring some facts about the shield?
-- Andi
Quote from: ooandioo on June 06, 2005, 08:00:53 AM
Correct me when i'm wrong.
The inner magnet will follow the shield "abyss" because of repel to the outer magnets. But: The shield steal will also went towards the highest magnetic attraction and this position is where outermagnets+innermagnets provide strongest magnetic strenght. The further away the shield moves from this point, the more energy is used to move it.
Am i ignoring some facts about the shield?
-- Andi
I have updated site for this question especially.
http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMM2only.html
Output Rotor acts on Input Rotor (shield) only with very small or even none attraction. So there is no high magnetic attraction only small or none.(looks and talks funny but it's true) when shield is remowed system opens for outside ringmagnet repel. REPULSION actually WORKS FROM THE OUTSIDE and different vector than attraction. and attraction vector is allways small.
TWO ROTORS ARE NOT ON THE SAME SHAFT. ENERGY ACTALLY FLOWS FROM PERMANENT MAGNET
carefully analyse Hill and Walley picture.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 06, 2005, 08:00:53 AM
Correct me when i'm wrong.
The inner magnet will follow the shield "abyss" because of repel to the outer magnets. But: The shield steal will also went towards the highest magnetic attraction and this position is where outermagnets+innermagnets provide strongest magnetic strenght. The further away the shield moves from this point, the more energy is used to move it.
Am i ignoring some facts about the shield?
-- Andi
shield will not go towards output rotor magnet cause theirs mutual attraction is small or none in every position (allways) of shield
in respect to output rotor magnet.
Ok, if the inner magnet really not provides an attraction (or small) to the shield, then i'm with you. But, i need to understand why it doesn't attract. The outer magnets attracts the shield the same way, the inner magnet does - why not ???
-- Andi
@ooandioo
To understand I've made a test. Please look at the picture. If you take a very thin peace of steel and then hold this in front of a pole of a strong magnet, then you have weakened the repelling forces but not neutralize them or turn it into attraction. So if you hold now another magnet with the same pol to the shielded magnet, they both repell each other but not as strong as without the shielding. And more is not needed. For this test it's important that the shielding is closer to the shielded magnet, so in no way we have attraction to the other magnet.
M.
Ok, i know this phenomen.
But - the more far away you put the inner magnet from the shield (in order to kill attraction), the less a repelling to the shield magnets occur. Perhaps forces are equal...
-- Andi
Quote from: m668004 on June 06, 2005, 09:23:23 AM
@ooandioo
To understand I've made a test. Please look at the picture. If you take a very thin peace of steel and then hold this in front of a pole of a strong magnet, then you have weakened the repelling forces but not neutralize them or turn it into attraction. So if you hold now another magnet with the same pol to the shielded magnet, they both repell each other but not as strong as without the shielding. And more is not needed. For this test it's important that the shielding is closer to the shielded magnet, so in no way we have attraction to the other magnet.
M.
1. Your shield DOES NOT "HANDSHAKE" (NOT U shaped like it should be) south pole which would VERY VERY GREATLY LOWER down REPEL force and allow You to move your right magnet much much closer. South pole will compensate north poles repel (some of it).
2. needed small ATTRACTION CAN OCCUR in TWO cases
? ? ?a. If You now move slowly Your right magnet further appart You will come to the point where NO forces ATTR Or REPEL occurs This is zero zone (have You heard of it. think its edvin grey or garry but this zone really exists try it) and is not that narrow as I have represented it in callibration animation. if moving further appart (slowly) You can feel slight attraction. this is the right distance. still magnet no close enough ? go read b. method.
? ? ?b. (1. must be made first - u shaped to close on itself south)? method more appropriate for working device. make the shield thicker so that one magnet's (ring) complete flux? closes on its own south and satturate steel (high permeable(4000) steel, with high satturation 1.3T - if higher could be thiner.) to say from 80 to 95 % of its max. satturation. Then the other (right) magnet can now again move much closer cause part of its field can (missing 5 - 20 % to steel's max satturation) penertrate shield and close to south (of ring mag) through steel. Now move the right magnet again closer till you feel slight repel then slowly appart till you feel slight attract (little behind zero zone). Now there is the best position for the rotor magnet.
If You think that magnet is still too distanced to fully catch repel when shield removes - make thicker shield and callibrate again.
Rotor magnet must be allways on or little behind zero zone (see the callibration animation) to feel none or little attraction. This sounds like pretty neat job but actually can be done in minutes with no any meassuring devices but fingers.
even If You miss exact spot you still have slight repel (well don't push it as donkey would) and that repel is still Walley against strong outer ring repel Hill.
@wizkycho
I don't want to use such a flat shield for a device like yours. It was only a quick test. Nothing more.
Ok. If there really is a zero point and you can adjust the inner magnets to head it, the machine would do what is should.
Still i believe, the zero point is right to far away from the shield so the repell force of the outer magnets are quite to less to provide extra power while rotating.
I think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...
-- Andi
ooandioo:
QuoteI think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...
Yes, to build such a machine would give last certainty. I think it wouldn't be that expensive or complicated.
M.
@wizkycho and all
To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?
M.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 06, 2005, 02:47:51 PM
Ok. If there really is a zero point and you can adjust the inner magnets to head it, the machine would do what is should.
Still i believe, the zero point is right to far away from the shield so the repell force of the outer magnets are quite to less to provide extra power while rotating.
I think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...
-- Andi
I 99% think that Sillicon Iron, very easy to find and it is used for transformer cores it has permeability 7000 and high satturation, would do and position of zero point can even enter into shield itself.
I will soon make some shield tests and see if rotor magnet can get close enough.
@wizkycho
I did some tests with simple stainless steel and strong magnets. Perhaps you are right. If you find a good point for the inner magnet to the shield, the attractions of the shield is less than the repulsion to the outer magnet...but its only a feeling. Would like to have good technique in order to measure N.
@m668004
How will you carry the outer ring magnet if the shield is closed at all sides? If you stay with U-form its working. Your idea of putting the "inner magnets" on the top is easier to build and to adjust.
-- Andi
@ooandioo
Quote@m668004
How will you carry the outer ring magnet if the shield is closed at all sides? If you stay with U-form its working.
I'm sorry. I simply didn't realize that. I have corrected the picture.
M.
Quote from: m668004 on June 06, 2005, 06:11:46 PM
@wizkycho and all
To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?
M.
to properly block repel force with the as thinner shield possible shield must cover the area where the south is strongest.
Quote from: m668004 on June 06, 2005, 06:11:46 PM
@wizkycho and all
To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?
M.
I Thought twice... As You can see there are two types (for now) as how shield can be applied.
"wrong type" maybe is not that wrong because main north field is separated in left and right filed which are two times weaker than together so looking like that shield can be thinner (and not to get satturated 100%), but then again some of the North repel field will escape scince strongest area of South pole is not covered with shield, making repel action stronger
really it needs some magnets, 0.5mm Iron-Si plates... little bending of sheets and I think in two hours we can conclude which type of shield deserves our attention.
Your design looks simpler to build (I give it complexity of design 20%) so lets proceeed. Now the only custom type magnet is the ring magnet.
any idea where we can find one cheap ? i would like one 20cm diameter with 2cm magnet width and 1 cm magnet height NdFeB of course.
Quote from: m668004 on June 06, 2005, 06:11:46 PM
@wizkycho and all
To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?
M.
May I, with Your permission put this lower complexity type on my site ? I'll make an animation.
I allready have 20 pieces of very strong NdFeB round magnets for Outputrotor
dimensions are? 20mm diameter 1cm thick properly polarized.
BTW: this one works on repel. can we think of attractional analogy of this device - and prolong working period from
500 years to more than 1000 years and desolve any susspicion that may apply to repel action of original device ?
this just for some brain storming.
I also have strong NdFeB round magnets (N42), and I'm going to get some Ironplates.
I order my magnets at www.supermagnete.de, they are also offering comm. specification ordering and I will ask for a ring magnet size 100mm x 20mm x 10mm.
If the idea is working, we will have a prototype soon...
Tell about your experiences while building.
@wizkycho
QuoteMay I, with Your permission put this lower complexity type on my site ?
Of course. No problem.
M.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 07, 2005, 05:42:22 AM
I also have strong NdFeB round magnets (N42), and I'm going to get some Ironplates.
I order my magnets at www.supermagnete.de, they are also offering comm. specification ordering and I will ask for a ring magnet size 100mm x 20mm x 10mm.
If the idea is working, we will have a prototype soon...
Tell about your experiences while building.
i advise You to reconsider using bigger diameter of ring. Between to sides (180deg) of this ring 100mm is only 60mm 6cm. And if magnets are NdFeB and strong Ring puts repel force ONITSELF and discharges (not quickly? but still does).
Rotor magnets will allso repel each other at that distance (very noticeably), which is going to weaken ther action.
Many other unexpected things (more likely unuseable) can arrive from this i think underdimensioned ring
if using 200mm diameter the space between to sides is 16cm and at that distance you can not or unnoticeably see
(feel) repel between two magnets NdFeB (N42).
100mm would be cheaper BUT BETTER RETHINK IT
@wizkycho
Here (picture) is a device that works (I doubt it) with attraction. What do you think?
M.
P.S.: I have an additional idea. If we can't make the iron-output-rotor follow the unshielded area horizontaly we can make it going up and down when the area under it is shielded/unshielded!
Quote from: m668004 on June 07, 2005, 10:06:16 AM
@wizkycho
Here (picture) is a device that works (I doubt it) with attraction. What do you think?
M.
P.S.: I have an additional idea. If we can't make the iron-output-rotor follow the unshielded area horizontaly we can make it going up and down when the area under it is shielded/unshielded!
This could work but difference between Hill and Walley is very small. So small I think it wouldn't be enough to give any
excess power (not even in FE mode)
maybe something else ...
No answer from www.supermagnete.de to my questions about larger ring magnets (i asked for 100mm to 200mm diameter...). Will resend my request today.
Any news from you guys?
-- Andi
QuoteAny news from you guys?
Don't blame me for the ferritringmagnets. They are pretty strong too. Demagnetization is not the problem for me, because it's a only a personal test and not the solution of the "world-energy-problem". ;) And they are easily available.
What I need now is steel for the shielding and some electric motors as motor/generator. That should not be the problem.
M.
Good work, you are first. I'm waiting for answers from supermagnete.de and will go off today to get some steel.
Any idea how we can measure forces. For testing, it would be enough to raw measure N at output rotor and compare it to input. If there is only a little higher out, i will cut a caper...
-- Andi
Quote from: m668004 on June 08, 2005, 09:32:33 AM
QuoteAny news from you guys?
Don't blame me for the ferritringmagnets. They are pretty strong too. Demagnetization is not the problem for me, because it's a only a personal test and not the solution of the "world-energy-problem". ;) And they are easily available.
What I need now is steel for the shielding and some electric motors as motor/generator. That should not be the problem.
M.
what are dimensions of this ferrites ?
@wizkycho
outer diameter: 6,0 cm
inner diameter: 3,2 cm
thickness: 1,0 cm
So they are relatively small, but easy to obtain. I will see, if I get problems.
M.
@ooandioo
Yes, big rare-earth-ringmagnets would be ideal. But even bigger ferrit-ringmagnets would be nice und surely cheaper. Maybe that would be an alternative.
I hope you get a positive response.
M.
M
Nice drawings but have questions. Which way will the rotor turn? I can't see how this will turn CW or CCW. Maybe unless you shape the iron in a triangle shape. Also you can get large rings from old speakers. I got some up to 3" dia.
Magpower
@magpower
The output-rotor will turn in the same direction you turn the input-rotor (shielding). If you turn (with an electric-motor for example) the input-rotor cw, then the output-rotor will follow cw. The same for ccw. You need an permanent energy-input but the output will be greater, so you can close the loop. At least I hope so.
M.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 08, 2005, 09:51:49 AM
Good work, you are first. I'm waiting for answers from supermagnete.de and will go off today to get some steel.
Any idea how we can measure forces. For testing, it would be enough to raw measure N at output rotor and compare it to input. If there is only a little higher out, i will cut a caper...
-- Andi
Input rotor can be driven with cca 5Watts motor. OutputRotor will give cca 120 Watts.
So Let's Push things Foreward.
Quote from: m668004 on June 08, 2005, 11:00:21 AM
@wizkycho
outer diameter: 6,0 cm
inner diameter: 3,2 cm
thickness: 1,0 cm
So they are relatively small, but easy to obtain. I will see, if I get problems.
M.
Think You would have to have very small fingers and very precise equipment to actally make this through
especially adjusting shield. But go on.
Answer from supermagnete.de - they will need some time to calculate the price of such magnets.
Another idea:
If we are not succesfull with our shield we could perhaps use a halbach array. As you see, by arranging magnets you can force the magnetic flux to concentrate on one side. The side "behind" the halbach array would be not magnetic. Suggestions about that?
-- Andi
"Another idea...Suggestions about that?"
- Yes, this IS idea. Good for you. And it might work because of unbalanced forces. Unfortunately ideas with balls and "shields" just a dead way. There's no questions (or discussion) about it.
Here's another very good development of your? thought.
http://ingenrw.narod.ru/Andv2/Opi2.html
just look at pictures.
"Answer from supermagnete.de ..."
- I'm buying from Dura Magnetics. No problem...
Quote from: ooandioo on June 09, 2005, 02:51:28 PM
Answer from supermagnete.de - they will need some time to calculate the price of such magnets.
Another idea:
If we are not succesfull with our shield we could perhaps use a halbach array. As you see, by arranging magnets you can force the magnetic flux to concentrate on one side. The side "behind" the halbach array would be not magnetic. Suggestions about that?
-- Andi
there is no doubt that shields will work no need complicate it any further.
Quote from: Light on June 09, 2005, 09:45:45 PM
"Another idea...Suggestions about that?"
- Yes, this IS idea. Good for you. And it might work because of unbalanced forces. Unfortunately ideas with balls and "shields" just a dead way. There's no questions (or discussion) about it.
Here's another very good development of your thought.
http://ingenrw.narod.ru/Andv2/Opi2.html
just look at pictures.
"Answer from supermagnete.de ..."
- I'm buying from Dura Magnetics. No problem...
Have You even understood the principles of how RPMM should work ? Describe why it wouldn't ?
Ok. supermagnete.de got me a reply:
Ring with 100mm outer x 60mm inner x 5mm height = 166,43 Euro/piece (if taking 5 = 46,53 Euro/piece)
Ring with 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height cannot be delivered with strong N42 force, only N38 = 224,42 Euro/peice (if taking 5 = 72,48 Euro/piece)
I will have to think about it, before I go and buy one. Please, if anyone is making some further experiences while testing the system and the shielding, submit here. I'm not afraid giving a lot of money but by now I'm still not 100% satisfied that the shield mechanism will really work. As I said, i think the inner magnets will have to be moved further away from the shield and so the repel force of the outer magnets are not that much (thats why i posted the idea with halbach array). Also I completely understand the shielding idea with high permeable steel and it seems logically.
Explain your experiences with steel shields.
- Andi
I finally made some flux analysis. In the middle you see the outer magnet, as part of the ring. Its a NdFeB 40 MGOe, same as magnet above the shield as part of inner outputsystem. The Shield around the magnet is M-19 Steel (Silicon Iron).
This picture shows open system, inner magnet ring and outer output magnet repell:
This picture shows closed system as described above. Shield takes most of inner magnetix flux:
Quote from: ooandioo on June 10, 2005, 06:04:50 AM
This picture shows closed system as described above. Shield takes most of inner magnetix flux:
tkanks, now it is clearer what we are trying to do.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 10, 2005, 04:43:47 AM
Ok. supermagnete.de got me a reply:
Ring with 100mm outer x 60mm inner x 5mm height = 166,43 Euro/piece (if taking 5 = 46,53 Euro/piece)
Ring with 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height cannot be delivered with strong N42 force, only N38 = 224,42 Euro/peice (if taking 5 = 72,48 Euro/piece)
I will have to think about it, before I go and buy one. Please, if anyone is making some further experiences while testing the system and the shielding, submit here. I'm not afraid giving a lot of money but by now I'm still not 100% satisfied that the shield mechanism will really work. As I said, i think the inner magnets will have to be moved further away from the shield and so the repel force of the outer magnets are not that much (thats why i posted the idea with halbach array). Also I completely understand the shielding idea with high permeable steel and it seems logically.
Explain your experiences with steel shields.
- Andi
5mm thickness is not sufficient even NdFeB will lose strenght quickly (year or two) if full repel is applied.
Yes you are right, but a 1 or 2 cm thick magnet will cost >300? - to much for testing...
Any news from you about building?
-- Andi
Quote from: ooandioo on June 10, 2005, 04:43:47 AM
Ok. supermagnete.de got me a reply:
Ring with 100mm outer x 60mm inner x 5mm height = 166,43 Euro/piece (if taking 5 = 46,53 Euro/piece)
Ring with 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height cannot be delivered with strong N42 force, only N38 = 224,42 Euro/peice (if taking 5 = 72,48 Euro/piece)
I will have to think about it, before I go and buy one. Please, if anyone is making some further experiences while testing the system and the shielding, submit here. I'm not afraid giving a lot of money but by now I'm still not 100% satisfied that the shield mechanism will really work. As I said, i think the inner magnets will have to be moved further away from the shield and so the repel force of the outer magnets are not that much (thats why i posted the idea with halbach array). Also I completely understand the shielding idea with high permeable steel and it seems logically.
Explain your experiences with steel shields.
- Andi
If the magnets are polarized through height (thickness) than we can maybe order 6 pieces.
Three guys each gets 2 pieces. they make six but send them to three different adresses.
145 E each for two magnets which can be stacked to make 1cm thick ring magnet which is enough for testing.
i'm talking about 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height N38 ones.
I'm in if magnets are polarized through height. otherwise they can not be stacked.
some more questions:
Are the magnets coated to prevent corrosion and with what ?
What is the price for postage and packing, I live in Croatia ?
Andi, are you IN. and we need One more experimenter...
Quote from: wizkycho on June 10, 2005, 08:53:57 AM
Quote from: ooandioo on June 10, 2005, 04:43:47 AM
Ok. supermagnete.de got me a reply:
Ring with 100mm outer x 60mm inner x 5mm height = 166,43 Euro/piece (if taking 5 = 46,53 Euro/piece)
Ring with 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height cannot be delivered with strong N42 force, only N38 = 224,42 Euro/peice (if taking 5 = 72,48 Euro/piece)
I will have to think about it, before I go and buy one. Please, if anyone is making some further experiences while testing the system and the shielding, submit here. I'm not afraid giving a lot of money but by now I'm still not 100% satisfied that the shield mechanism will really work. As I said, i think the inner magnets will have to be moved further away from the shield and so the repel force of the outer magnets are not that much (thats why i posted the idea with halbach array). Also I completely understand the shielding idea with high permeable steel and it seems logically.
Explain your experiences with steel shields.
- Andi
If the magnets are polarized through height (thickness) than we can maybe order 6 pieces.
Three guys each gets 2 pieces. they make six but send them to three different adresses.
145 E each for two magnets which can be stacked to make 1cm thick ring magnet which is enough for testing.
i'm talking about 200mm outer x 160mm inner x 5mm height N38 ones.
I'm in if magnets are polarized through height. otherwise they can not be stacked.
some more questions:
Are the magnets coated to prevent corrosion and with what ?
What is the price for postage and packing, I live in Croatia ?
Andi, are you IN. and we need One more experimenter...
BTW I'm currently searching some chinees manufacturer. I've heard they are much cheaper and still maintain quality.
The ring magnets are polarized through 5mm, so we can put the output magnet above the ring.
I will ask them for delivering option. I think they can split the order and send to different locations. Magnets are covered with Nickel, i have some other Magnets from them - they are very good in quality.
Lets see what your manufacturer says.
-- Andi
Quote from: ooandioo on June 10, 2005, 04:44:21 PM
The ring magnets are polarized through 5mm, so we can put the output magnet above the ring.
I will ask them for delivering option. I think they can split the order and send to different locations. Magnets are covered with Nickel, i have some other Magnets from them - they are very good in quality.
Lets see what your manufacturer says.
-- Andi
I got replay from chinees manufacturers
the best is:
Material: Sintered NdFeB
Size: D200xd160x10mm (ring magnet)
Coating: Ni
Magnetization: MAGNETIZED
Magnetization direction:10mm
Grade/Quantity/Price: N38/1pc/FOB Hong Kong USD83.34/pc.
Grade/Quantity/Price: N40/1pc/FOB Hong Kong USD88.95/pc.
The express freight for 1pc to reach your door is USD135.00.
this is cheaper offer and my friend recently ordered something (from china, don't know if it is same manufact.)simmilar and the magnets where very strong.
http://www.permanentmagnet.com
Ok, this is allready cheaper.
Before ordering, we should specify some details about the design itself. What type of steel are we using? Silicone Steel? From where can you get it and how to manipulate for our needs?
How will you apply the whole system? I'm afraid we forgot something. The whole idea seems so "easy" that i cannot imagine anybody tried it before us...
-- Andi
You right again, ooandioo.
Listen nobody, just try and try.
Sorry, I tried to "prove" something. It never work. I remember myself, when I thought my ideas best of all and was very angry, when some "bad" guys tried to open my eyes...till did it myself and proved my wrong.
So try. Even if it won't work (no doubt, system's closed), you'll get experience.
Good luck.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 12, 2005, 03:15:00 PM
Ok, this is allready cheaper.
Before ordering, we should specify some details about the design itself. What type of steel are we using? Silicone Steel? From where can you get it and how to manipulate for our needs?
How will you apply the whole system? I'm afraid we forgot something. The whole idea seems so "easy" that i cannot imagine anybody tried it before us...
-- Andi
the chenees manufacturer actally adds 135USD express freight to a price of magnet so the complete price for
N40 magnet is Total Sum: USD 223.95 which is about a price that your manufacturer offers (but for 5 and more pieces).
Knowone has tested this device - I have conducted some additional Femm analysis and the more I think of it the more it works. The device is not that simple to construct - we have two rotors that are not connected in any way.It would need two bearings per rotor so the shaft is centered at all times.
You can get silicon iron from allmost any manufacturer of transformers. You will get thin sheets and that is what is needed - so will be able to slowly thickens the shield till we get proper small attraction/distance ratio.
The device is allso not that simple to understand (first look). See what Light says.
The thing is that two rotors are closed system but forgeting that one of them opens to outside source of energy
which is represented by ring magnet. The complete device is actually very Open system. At a point Where You bring Diesel I bring Permanent magnetism.
Igor
Quote from: Light on June 12, 2005, 10:54:09 PM
You right again, ooandioo.
Listen nobody, just try and try.
Sorry, I tried to "prove" something. It never work. I remember myself, when I thought my ideas best of all and was very angry, when some "bad" guys tried to open my eyes...till did it myself and proved my wrong.
So try. Even if it won't work (no doubt, system's closed), you'll get experience.
Good luck.
One rotor (Output rotor) is in Opened system to outside ring magnet when shield moves away.
outside ring magnet is actally what Diesel is to your car. Shield is only making potential (diesel pump) for diesel to get
to your motor. diesel pump needs much much less energy than your motor outputs.
This is the completely true analogy. Please make it wrong !
igor
Femm analysis seems very interesting and the system itself seems logically to me.
I did some tests in femm with thinner shield and outer magnet closer to it - flux density is also much stronger between inner and outer magnets when shield is removed as the force between outer magnet and shield appeares, when shield is applied.
What else can you say about attraction of the steel shields to the ring magnet. Perhaps force to move the shield will be equal to force you get out of the system?
-- Andi
Hey guys - i was reading the whole thread just now - i found the idea great, iam thinking since some days about over unity machine. My idea was similar to the "Takahashi-engine" but your plan looks much better. - i was wondering, if the bigger size ring magnets are too expensive why you dont buy manny smaller ones - and arrange them like one big ring. Keep going, great idea!
Thanks for the suggestions. A completely closed ring magnet would deliver a closed flux system and so the force that appeares between Shield and inner magnets would be same at every postition.
But you are also right, if the input rotor with shield would me moved at continous and specific rpm, the different forces could be ignored...
-- Andi
"This is the completely true analogy".
- Maybe. If you put an additional source of energy to run a "shield" in Kalinin's motor, yes you'll get "diesel" like principle. And with system of "compensators" the positive balance can be achieved.
But in your scheme you just "bend" fields in shielded space, and forces in total going be equal. The outer rotor will follow running shield, i.e. will depend of how powerful drive of inner rotor is. You should brake and close a field some how with a smaller force to actuate the clean power of magnets. And then, yes, limit just a sky...
Currently I'm working and allmost finished preparing very interesting and promising experiment.
Electrolysis of water with AC variabile square freq. generator in order to be able to find resonant frequency of
"cell with water" itself. In that point current for generating H2 + O2 mixture gas shuold drop to very small currents.
Some reports say that COP 7 to 11 can be reached with such approach.
when experimenting starts you'll be informed in elektrolysis topics.
This is the only reason I currently pause on making Knitels RPMM.
Ok. Currently I'm doing some tests with shielding. I will keep you informed.
The best would be, to test the whole idea in a 3D Software. Do you know any good one (perhaps free like femm)?
-- Andi
I have found very cheap ring magnet at http://www.ktmagnet.com
dimensions of magnet: 200mm(D)*160mm(d)*20mm(thick) 48USD + P&P is 77USD = 125USD to be delivered right to the door.
this is N35 grade but it is still very powerfull magnet (200 - 300mT < than N42) and is completely sufficient
for testing. What is important is that its thickness 2cm makes it allmost UNDEMAGNETIZABLE.
I have ordered me One Ring.
I'll try to download some quality 3D software.
off topic
can the hack someone tell me how to put my picture next to message? can not find the option to do that.
Quote from: wizkycho on June 15, 2005, 10:03:49 AM
off topic
can the hack someone tell me how to put my picture next to message? can not find the option to do that.
Should be below the reply message box. I didn't found some 3D software. If you get something, please inform me - we can do many tests with it.
Greetings, Andi.
Hi guys.
Any news from you. wizkycho, did you get your magnets?
greetings, Andi.
Quote from: wizkycho on June 15, 2005, 10:03:49 AMcan the hack someone tell me how to put my picture next to message? can not find the option to do that.
I think what you want is the "Reply" button which is slightly above the 'quick reply' text box. the 'quick reply' text box doesn't let you add pictures. Or try editting an existing message using the 'modify' button.
Quote from: ooandioo on June 20, 2005, 06:37:05 AM
Hi guys.
Any news from you. wizkycho, did you get your magnets?
greetings, Andi.
I had a meeting with a person nicknamed Shad and he showed me a material wich has very good shielding properties.
It doesn't interract with magnet (no attraction,nor repulsion) but when between two very strong NdFeB magnets acts like it "consumes" field and two magnets can be brought much much closer. 5 cm distance without material to feel repulsion and 1cm with material inbetween magnets to feel repulsion. At first he claimed that he gathered this material from beech using magnet and that this material is black sand (volcanic origin).
After a while he tells that this is common ferrite material used for radio receiving oscilating circuit, but he conditioned it (he of course will never tell how).btw material is 5mm thick with diameter 3.5cm.
This is I suppose process he used: he took ferrite material from some kind of electronic aparatus (radio receiver)and used hammer and smashed this ferrite (it is very brittle) till he got sandlike form. Then he mixed this sandliked ferrite
with acrylic glue (super glue) and put this mix into round shaped (5mm deep) form made from paper (there are residues of paper on his sample I sow).
The conditioning has been probably made with alternating current (common 50hz but through trafo 50W/6V~) through coil he wounded parallel to diameter. this way he got little hallbachs that acrillyc fixed to be permanent paths for outside field.
Why he did not revieled this process completely ? He invested a lots of money in some patents (neutrino diffuzor allso called fuel cracker (allso cracks water with this)) so the only way (he sees) is to meet some rich industrial who will
buy off this patents from him in order to get out of money debth.
If You meet this guy tell him that most likely he and his patents and methods will be forgotten and lost
through time (rich industrials have doesns of such patents and they only searching the right time to sell it but under some different "name and usage and characteristics" in order to keep unquestionable control and earn more of Our money(sweat ... even blood) so they can feel as kings amongst the beggars(what a perversion!!!!)).
Igor Knitel
This is amazing and would be a great advantage to our work. Your system would be guaranteed to operate with such a material.
We will need to get such a material immediately...
-- Andi
Quote from: wizkycho on June 21, 2005, 04:30:50 AM
I had a meeting with a person nicknamed Shad and he showed me a material wich has very good shielding properties.......
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
did you visit Shad in Zagreb at his home ?
Did he show you also his gocart ?
Does it already run powered only on his neurtrino egg diffusor and
water ?
Is SHAD still believing the tales of the rich invenstors buying his inventions ?
If he would have gone public domain years ago with his Neutrino egg,
then he would be already famous by now and would make
much more money already now....
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 25, 2005, 08:40:53 AM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 21, 2005, 04:30:50 AM
I had a meeting with a person nicknamed Shad and he showed me a material wich has very good shielding properties.......
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
did you visit Shad in Zagreb at his home ?
Did he show you also his gocart ?
Does it already run powered only on his neurtrino egg diffusor and
water ?
Is SHAD still believing the tales of the rich invenstors buying his inventions ?
If he would have gone public domain years ago with his Neutrino egg,
then he would be already famous by now and would make
much more money already now....
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 25, 2005, 08:40:53 AM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 21, 2005, 04:30:50 AM
I had a meeting with a person nicknamed Shad and he showed me a material wich has very good shielding properties.......
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
did you visit Shad in Zagreb at his home ?
Did he show you also his gocart ?
Does it already run powered only on his neurtrino egg diffusor and
water ?
Is SHAD still believing the tales of the rich invenstors buying his inventions ?
If he would have gone public domain years ago with his Neutrino egg,
then he would be already famous by now and would make
much more money already now....
Regards, Stefan.
Yes it works and we are driving it across our countrys new A1 autobahn ! Yappiiiiiii 380 Km up und down with no stopping for fuel.
@wizkycho
Can you please post a few pics of the gocart ?
Or just tell SHAD to post some reports about it.
How much water did it need for the 380 km ?
Thanks.
Regards. Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on June 25, 2005, 08:40:53 AM
Quote from: wizkycho on June 21, 2005, 04:30:50 AM
I had a meeting with a person nicknamed Shad and he showed me a material wich has very good shielding properties.......
Igor Knitel
Hi Igor,
did you visit Shad in Zagreb at his home ?
Did he show you also his gocart ?
Does it already run powered only on his neurtrino egg diffusor and
water ?
Is SHAD still believing the tales of the rich invenstors buying his inventions ?
If he would have gone public domain years ago with his Neutrino egg,
then he would be already famous by now and would make
much more money already now....
Regards, Stefan.
Yes, we met twice.
No he didn't show me the gocart, but said that his neutrino egg when disociating water is very very efficient (I didn't though ask him did he check for deuterium or tricium to be completely on a safe side).
What is prevnting him to either upgrade gocart with diffusor or going public is money invested in patent and of course
kind of light fear which is or is not needed.(this is not as powerfull as let's say dynamite). And we all know how to handle gas for housings and diesel for our cars. I think common sense is what is enough for handeling his device,and many other fe devices.
My opinion is that patenting is pure waste of money and time and releasing his findings can protect him and patent.
? Inventors of course wan't come for something they can not sell or gain power (unless repacked), and thats what I told him.
? And material I saw for magnetic shielding is real and acts exactly as I described previously.
Sorry for previous unmature answer we had some mini party when I first unswered.
regards, Igor
wizkycho - you told about that shielding material. Can you give or get further informations about that? with such a shield, the PMM would run 100%...
-- Andi
Hi,
I,ve just read the whole thread - it's a brilliant ideea
Does anybody has build that device ?
Regards,
Codrut
it almost sounds like the construction of some of the amorphius cores used for transformers, a cut C core might do the trick, the nanocristaline materials might be better for the job but im no expert on those
wizkycho - are there any news about you and your idea? What about the shielding material you speaked of. Its been a long time since our last conversation...
Greetings, Andi.
As I told you Igor...I did some tests with the rotational setup and the result ts are verry good.Also did few FEMM simulations just for me to see if the magnetic fied behaves as I think..and looks good.
About the tests I did: taket a rotor with 2 magnets on diametral opposite positions..north out...attached a a spring onto one side and used a sheet of iron as shield.By rotating the shield at a constant distance arround the rotor, the rotor folowed it until the spring allowed him at 1 cm of streching.Now...this was done without outside, opposite magnetic field represented by the stator magnet.
I happened to have a big magnet (25cm OD, 15 cm ID) wich I could use it for a stator.With the same setup as above (I literally moved the above setup inside the big donut magnet,the rotor with the two magnets are moving free, even they are in reppeling mode in respect to de stator ,but when the shield is added, at the same distance to the rotor, and rotated, the spring is streching way much longer than witout the stator, at least 5 times.
I made a great stator now from neos and soon I'll finish the whole setup...I'll take some picturesand a footage when I'll finish.
Best regards,
Cristian
Hi!
The link http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMMonly.html is dead, could anybody decribe what was there? Or maybe someone cuold post any pictures/animations of the setup?
Here are the stator , the shield(input) and the rotor(output) magnet pictures.The dimensions of each one is in such way that the distance betwen the rotor magnet is 5 mm from the shield and from the shield to the stator is 3 mm.So the distance from the rotor magnet and the stator is 9 mm including the thickness of the shield wich is 1mm.Now I have to figure out a way to assemble the whole setup.
Best regards,
Cristian
QuoteIf shield is satturated to maximum it will "REPEL" !?! (bounce) from magnet to the place on magnet where is less satturated and field density is lower. You don't believe this see this very simple experiment I assure You that this is not happening cause of induced current in permeable object.
the experiment: http://www.geocities.com/wizkycho/index_files/magexp.avi
Well, this experiment shows, that "shield" moves to the edge with max flux density, not repels but attracts to it. The edge has higer flux density. It doesn't really matter is shield saturated or not, it will allways move to higher flux density zone. The process is fully identical to that where two magnets attract, think of shield as of magnet polarized in the direction of magnetic induction vector - that is what happens.
not the shield is the one who moves but the magnet rotor...the shield is moved by an external force...the magnetic rotor moves as response, under the atraction of the shield( wich is nothing special) and also under the repulsion of the magnetic field "spike" wich oposes to the rotor in the shield's gap.
cristian
about my above response...is related to rotational PMM device ..not to the link above
Cristian
Hi all !
Got the ring magnet. Last year cost me 158 USD. Got the rotor2 magnets.
I read the whole thread once again. And let's now answer to this question:
Lets say thickness of shield and distance rotor2 is made to rotor 2 "feels" slight attraction to rotor1.
(this is 100% possible)
Why would rotor1 (shield) when moved 10mm left from rotor2 "Feel" strong attraction ? (in this case it won't work)
slight attraction of rotor1 to other elements can only come from thickness of shield so if shield is moved
still there is only slight attraction.
answer: it can't feel strong atraction only slight
so once again I think the only drawback of this design is repulsion mode which tends to deplete magnets fields, but if made
properly (thick magnets and spaced enough) it could run forever.
ring magnet is 200mm outer diameter and 160mm inner.
My home budget is depleted and screaming at me, so if there is someone from Croatia preferably Zagreb and want's to
build it with me properly, it will sooner be made. setup could cost 70USD and we split the cost, and share infinite glory
afterwards.
Perihelion labs
Wizkycho
Hi Wizkycho.
Nice to see you back again. Please keep us informed about your developments.
I didn't forget your idea the whole time along...
Greetings, Andi.
Quote from: arktik on September 22, 2006, 04:50:26 AM
Here are the stator , the shield(input) and the rotor(output) magnet pictures.The dimensions of each one is in such way that the distance betwen the rotor magnet is 5 mm from the shield and from the shield to the stator is 3 mm.So the distance from the rotor magnet and the stator is 9 mm including the thickness of the shield wich is 1mm.Now I have to figure out a way to assemble the whole setup.
Best regards,
Cristian
Hi Christian !
Stator is good. Rotor2 can do but try to find magnets that shape follows
inner arc of stator magnet and shiled.
You need to work more on shield rotor.
shield surface is too big in respect to rotor magnets.
This way big shield surface does nothing.
Shield should not connect magnet flux on both sides of rotor2 (bell shape shield is no good i think)
in between there has to be material with low permeability. plastic, aluminium.
You should be able move shiled closer and further from stator magnet
for adjustment.
You should be able to change thickness of shield for adjustment, or experiment with it.
Adjustments are needed for best output.
when adjusted properly:
spring attached to rotor 1 should spread slightly.
spring attached to rotor 2 should spread much more.
Is this the case ?
wizkycho
Quote from: specter on September 22, 2006, 07:13:43 AM
QuoteIf shield is satturated to maximum it will "REPEL" !?! (bounce) from magnet to the place on magnet where is less satturated and field density is lower. You don't believe this see this very simple experiment I assure You that this is not happening cause of induced current in permeable object.
the experiment: http://www.geocities.com/wizkycho/index_files/magexp.avi
Well, this experiment shows, that "shield" moves to the edge with max flux density, not repels but attracts to it. The edge has higer flux density. It doesn't really matter is shield saturated or not, it will allways move to higher flux density zone. The process is fully identical to that where two magnets attract, think of shield as of magnet polarized in the direction of magnetic induction vector - that is what happens.
When washer is placed perpendicular not horizontal at the magnets center it stays firmly in the center or anywhere on magnet
It never just jumps to the edges of magnet...
But I abbandoned that theory anyway, cause come to think of RPMM it is not involved in its operation.
Previous pictures are enough to understand why it should work !
Do You agree that Knitel's RPMM could work ?
wizkycho
to blow my alias wizkycho is Knitel Igor. to hell with aliases.
Quote from: tao on October 02, 2006, 08:15:10 AM
This is basically the EXACT SAME concept as the Torbay Magnet Motor from Argentiina, but MUCH easier to build and test.
Bravo, this is great.
Only two questions need asking....
Does is take as much force to move the shield when the rotor is on the device as opposed to when the rotor isn't on the device?
and
Does the shield itself have a tendency to want to move toward the rotor magnets? AND if so, is the torque on the shield to move toward the rotor magnets the same as the torque on the rotor magnets moving toward the shield?
Basically, if there is no real torque on the shield when the rotor magnets are there or not and the shield effectively creates a 'zone of less North magnetic flux' then the torque of the rotor-with-magnets will 100% overcome the anti-torque(if there is any) of the shield moving toward the rotor magnets and this device will work almost indefinitely like you said.
Just like the Torbay setup, "a cat chasing its tail!"
There are more differneces than similarities. Torbay uses gravity and no shield.
It can not work in zero gravity environment (Space).
O/I ratio is much lower than RPMM.
Knitel's RPMM as idea was introduced way before Torbays.
Torbays device has "only" one advantage. It has been built and proven to work.So Hurray for Torbay.
"Does is take as much force to move the shield when the rotor is on the device as opposed to when the rotor isn't on the device?"
Theory: When rotor2(magnets) is in place slightly more force is needed to rotate rotor1(shield) as opposed when rotor2 is not set.
This small attraction force + friction represents ammount of energy needed for input to rotor1 to start the device.
"Does the shield itself have a tendency to want to move toward the rotor magnets? AND if so, is the torque on the shield to move toward the rotor magnets the same as the torque on the rotor magnets moving toward the shield?"
Theory: shield rotor has slight attract tendency to move to rotor2 (back). But Rotor2 (now in repulsion field) has many times more
tendency (Force) to get in balanced position (follow shield).
Rotor2(magnets) is strongly repeled pushed from outer source of energy (ring magnet)
Shield is not affected by that outer ring magnet. In every position it has same potential.
Output energy is abs sum of (slight attraction(rotor1-rotor2))+(strong repel(rotor2-stator ring magnet))
Why is needed to adjust device to feel small atraction between rotor1 and 2 ?
It is for practicall reasons so when device is not working it can rest and not depleting its magnet fields.
It is harder to develop system that will move rotor2 further away when not working.
I need some constructional idea help
If I put rotor2 on outer ring of bearing it will in operation wobble cause outer ring of
bearing is not 100% firm it can move a bit, so when rotor2 is pushed from outer ring magnet it will, well, wobble.
Any suggestion how to avoid this beahviour ?
Knitel Igor alias Wizkycho
Perihelion Labs
> I need some constructional idea help
> If I put rotor2 on outer ring of bearing it will
> in operation wobble cause outer ring of
> bearing is not 100% firm it can move a bit,
> so when rotor2 is pushed from outer ring magnet
> it will, well, wobble. Any suggestion how to
> avoid this beahviour ?
> Knitel Igor alias Wizkycho
> Perihelion Labs
I do not really understand the problem. So I will make a suggestion and you
can throw it in the bin if no good.
If you use two strong concentric ring magnets as a magnetic bearing, then it would
take up the gap or error as an equally disposed gap around the shaft.
Alternatively, an air bearing, with compressed air being pumped down radial
drilled holes would do a similar job.
Paul.
Hi Igor,
A short briefing of what I experienced:
1.using the bell shaped shield the force aplied to the shield is the same that is obtained by the magnet rotor; I aplied a rotational force to the magnet rotor and get the same force aplied to the shield wich sems strange..the shield is mu-metal in 1.2mm thickness.You noticd that the gaps in the shield are les than half of the shield surface, actulay is 3 time rotor magnet wide.There should be the repulsion hill or wave and it is so.But the shield folows the rotor magnet with the same force, wich is strange because should follow it only by the attraction force only wich is smaller.
2.I changed the bell shaped shield with a "|_____|" one , or a U shape, with a 2 cm wide one
and experienced the same .
Observation: the tests are roughly done because I didn't actualy measure the forces involved but I only "felt" 'em by hand.
Anyways...due to the time lack I don't conclude anything negative on this so far since the linear test is clearly positive.
I'm still really confused on how this is suppose to work. From the pictures, it looks like you spin the shielding plates which causes permanent magnets right above the shield to also spin. So now the permanent magnets are spinning with the shield? Where is the output energy suppose to come from? If you put a load on the permanent magnet rotor, you would just be driving the load with the shield until the load force becomes so strong that the shielding slips. I don't see how extra energy is suppose to come from this. Can anyone clarify? I see this topic is about 2 years old, maybe its not worth the time anymore.
Hi all !
RPMM version 1 is 80% complete. and i can confirm that upper rotator with magnets is strongly following lower rotator (with shielding)
and that force as predicted IS STRONGER then force needed to move lower rotator. Upper rotator (magnets in repel) is not to close to ring magnet
when this is observed so I think it wan't deplete magnets.
...due to strong forces lower rotator is bending mainshaft (screws for shaft don't hold well in plastic) so shielding rotator touches ring magnet.
(on pic1 black gluing paper around SiFe sheets - right side touches(strongly attracted) ring magnet. upper rotator (magnets) is released.)
this must be fixed first and it's not easy. attractional force of ring magnet and lower shield rotator is very strong. I underestimated this in this version.
principle of work - if someone missed animated pic2...
Wiz
Hello Igor,
Very good you have returned to this topic and continue testing the RPMM. Did you use a force meter or you used your fingers to sense the forces? Of course the latter method is also good... ;)
Hopefully you can rebuild the base from a more robust material and continue testing.
Thanks,
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on January 20, 2009, 10:28:02 AM
Hello Igor,
Very good you have returned to this topic and continue testing the RPMM. Did you use a force meter or you used your fingers to sense the forces? Of course the latter method is also good... ;)
Hopefully you can rebuild the base from a more robust material and continue testing.
Thanks,
Gyula
First sensing with fingers, as I said there is much friction since lower (input energy) rotator doesn't have any distance at one side from ring magnet (it is strongly attracted to it and bending shaft screws to plastic) If I try to lift it it flips strongly to other side. But to my opinion forces are distinct enough to feel the difference.
...but good question (opinion is not measurement)...I'm in search for two some adequate nonmagnetic springs. The spring attached to lower (input) rotator should strech less than upper
(output) rotator (streching at 180deg from one another) and this can be sensed right now.
btw.
Current cost arround 250 Euros
This setup is not intended to be new source of energy but Eyeopener, Awakening tool, Inspierer...Firestarter.
When this mechanical problems are solved there is need for additional parts (coil, Cond , transistor) to make it self runner.
Wiz
Hi all !
does anyone has any suggestios 'bout using this ring magnet for Homopolar generator ?
Wiz
hi you.
thanks for sharing all this, but why are you asking about homopolar generators,
instead of focussing on your original idea?
Are you in doubt about it? Did i miss something?
You have started this thread 4 years ago and some people
are trying to follow and helping your concept.
.... I really dont want to offend you, but after four years you did
not get something better that a bending peace of wood on a "wobbling" axis?
Right here, at this community, you will find help on the mechanical side.
It took me two hours of lifetime to follow this thread,
so please excuse if my reply sounds a bit rough. I'm engaged,enraged.whatever.
keep on track, make it spin ;D
Quote from: sushimoto on January 20, 2009, 03:51:42 PM
hi you.
thanks for sharing all this, but why are you asking about homopolar generators,
instead of focussing on your original idea?
Are you in doubt about it? Did i miss something?
You have started this thread 4 years ago and some people
are trying to follow and helping your concept.
.... I really dont want to offend you, but after four years you did
not get something better that a bending peace of wood on a "wobbling" axis?
Right here, at this community, you will find help on the mechanical side.
It took me two hours of lifetime to follow this thread,
so please excuse if my reply sounds a bit rough. I'm engaged,enraged.whatever.
keep on track, make it spin ;D
I'm having fun in building and thinking 'bout this things, and when it's not fun anymore (when someone like You bumps in), I give a little (or more) further effort and then I stop and do somethng else (in this field). This is in fact the way of life I want and why I'm on this - to stop being anyones slave, for reason I don't agree with, not even Yours.
You think 4 years is long ... what are you doing here ? In 2 millions of years of evolution of mankind man has to do work for energy (now more then ever), never was free - so I have all the time in the world, even I don't succeed.
Yes You are engaged,enraged...so why don't You make it spin right now and right away.
You are only excused to "waste" some more time and money then two hours (on whatever topic You wish).
I'm not jumping from setup to setup leaving and discrediting possible principle of work,
unless I make setup exactly as I wanted it to be and it doesn't work
(even then I might be wrong so nothing I make goes to junk - One can not force the right idea to bump right in when You want it in a split second).
I'm making several setups (dif. principle of work) in paralel - same reason waiting for the idea. In process I allso have to make tools.
Seems like You haven't ever even tried to make any of setups...try it...you'll come up to many problems (you tought are already solved by this civilization)...good luck.
This setup pushed me to buy this ring magnet, while building it I relized that I have magnet (somewhat easily dissmounted) that might fit to homopolar gen. or SEG type...
There are no fully credible and replicapable,verifiable Homopolar generator replications not recently. Principle of Work is on the other hand very exact and can be used as Free Energy generator not toy.
You say I don't deliver ... tell me one thing in this world that does - so how can I do much better.
This is why we are here to make something we can relay on.
Wiz
Oh wow,
I did not know that my english is THAT bad. :/
"Thanks for sharing..." means I do like your idea.
I did NOT say that following this thread was a waste of time.
Okay, maybe, due to the lack of smilies and flowers and such,
probably my reply sounded a bit ironic, discrediting or so,
but it was not meant to be.
Homopolar generators (and others) are a logical consequence of finding an OU motor,
but do you think all this fits into one thread?
Maybe i just wantet to avoid another thread-in-thread leaving the topic.
Usually "people like me" are bumping from thread to thread trying to bring it offtopic,
but in that case, you tried to bring your own thread out of track. *smile*
So again. I do appreciate yor work, i do like your idea and thanks a lot for sharing.
If I had such a ring-magnet, i would immediately rebuild your setup in order to share my experience
after replacing the bending peace of wood and the "wobbling bearing" with you.
After that, I am sure there are more issues to solve. But maybe not? Probably it spins?
*flowers*
I'm just trying to consolidate a bit.
Good luck,
sushimoto
Edit
PS: This is currently my favorite:
http://www.borderlands.de/energy.kromrey.php3
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Special:Search?search=Kromrey&go=Go
for the short clip, are you sure you didn't mix up the poles of the magnet? looks like that washer was placed on the side, not on the poles.