Posted on free_energy
Here are two links to the videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E
Dear Mr. Krieg:
I am challenging your challenge. My claim: is to have built a working, proof of concept apparatus that clearly shows a power ratio over one. I am specifically stating that the first law of thermodynamics is incorrect. It is possible to get more power out than what was used to produce it. Power out divided by power in = power ratio. This apparatus clearly has a power ratio over (1) one.
Your proposed test protocol is severely flawed on several levels. Let?s do some critical thinking on your expected output requirements. History shows that a marketable apparatus is not made on first attempts, on this type device. The ideas and theories go through constant change, from different people, over time. Reference: http://www.sparkmuseum.com/MOTORS.HTM
?Most sources cite Faraday as developing the first electric motor, in 1821. In fact, it was not until about 1875, that Gramme and Siemens eventually developed modern, efficient motors, after the fundamental principles became better understood.? How many people and years is that? Your requirement is, ?one thousand five hundred watts? right off the bat. This implies fuzzy emotion, not critical thinking. Most certainly, a critical thinker would understand this concept.
?Free Energy? HOOK IT TO ITSELF AND MAKE IT RUN FOR MONTHS, AND DO USEFUL WORK WITH NO ADDITIONAL MEANS OF INPUT (SELF RUNNING).
Your fabricated test protocol is baseless. What exactly are you testing for? How long the bearings last? You dreamed up a ?test?, based on a made up ?word?, for an imaginary ?device? that ?doesn?t exist?. There is something strange (Woo) about that. Then you have the audacity to strut around proclaiming that no one has taken your test yet. Did you get a peer review on this fabricated test protocol first? Of course you didn?t. It may look reasonable on paper; it may even sound reasonable, but nonetheless faulty thinking. If the apparatus stopped 1 day into the test for unknown reasons, in that one-day span, did the apparatus show an over (1) one power ratio or did it not?(Proof please) By how much either way? (Proof please) Was the first law of thermodynamics violated or not? (Proof please) Exactly how many experimental devices that you have bad-mouthed, have you personally tested with this protocol, or any protocol? In the real world, one complete cycle is the preferred test duration. Would you explain to me, how a hundred years ago, measurements were exact enough to base laws on, but in modern times it is too difficult to measure with that same amount of accuracy; Isn?t that the premise of your test?
Please note: 1 watt going into the device from a cell, and two watts simultaneously coming out of the device, is a power ratio over one, even if the input is a cell that diminishes in power output, until the device stops. Hooking the output to the input before understanding the principal is fuzzy emotion. Don?t play the game that a device like this cannot be measured by conventional means. There are smart, competent, engineers, professionals and lay people that are very capable of measuring my claimed device. It does not take special scientists, or equipment. All your nonsense notwithstanding, we are both measuring for the same thing ?power ratio.
A data recorder is a tried and true method of obtaining instantaneous voltage and amperage values. Voltage is measured at the terminals. Voltage measurements taken across a precision resistor, gives amperage. The instantaneous values are recorded to disk along with the waveforms. The instantaneous measurement values are opened in Excel. With a few formulas, RMS and average calculations are computed on one cycle, to ascertain the power factor. From there it is a short step calculating the power ratio. Using this well accepted, accurate, form of measuring, the numbers will speak for themselves. No need to interpret anything that is what RMS is all about. This is a straightforward test procedure that anyone can reproduce (which is of the upmost importance). I am using a Dataq 158UP, four channel Data recorder, and 2W 0.05 Ω Caddock SR20: Precision current sense resistors. Check out the perfect example of the setup at scienceshareware.com.
I have something to put up. It is physical, you can see it, you can touch it, you can make it start and stop, you can adjust it and most importantly you can test it. What exactly do you have to put up? No history lessons or ?we wouldn?t be where we are today? stuff please. If you ?think? about it, all you have is antidotal stuff, peppered with assumed/ postulated/ extrapolated and guessed. You, my friend, do not have any ?proof? whatsoever; to back up the assertions you make about the first law of thermodynamics being 100% accurate and incorruptible. What you have is a bunch of old dusty ideas and call them laws, the arrogance to believe they can never be changed, and, the audacity to criticize, to the point of fanaticism, anyone who dare suggest differently. Have I missed something?
I have read your web pages and your fanaticism on hooking the output to the input is pure fuzzy emotion. Don?t even ask. You?re absolutely right about the water test, no way. Do you know how many variables are involved? How many times did you use the word ?if? in that very short description of the test? The reproduction of the test would be a nightmare. Seems as though you are ?hung up? on spikes. Not to worry, there isn?t any. Even if there were spikes, with a data recorder there are ways to deal with it. All the bases are covered, my friend.
A cynic is the mirror image of the person they feel compelled to bad-mouth. The cynics deal in fuzzy emotion (?no you can?t?. liar?), their target also deals in fuzzy emotion, ?yes I can, you just don?t understand? (a marriage made in heaven). The few real skeptics say ?just show me something, anything, somebody, anybody,? then proceeds to analyze the something/anything with critical thinking, not fuzzy emotion. Does this make any sense? Are you a ?cynic or a skeptic? A skeptic would jump at the chance to test this working apparatus.
This is open source so there is no problem there. The only thing separating us is your agreement on the data recorder. Oh, the only thing you did get right was the description, ?over 40, long haired, cigarette smoking, garage tinkerer? what are the odds, Good job! I just as soon not spar to long and get to the test; after all, that is where the proof is!
Happy New Year!
David Middleton
Handyguy1@verizon.net
Hi Tinkerer,
I have a great deal of skeptisizem over the output of your machine.
Is it solid state? Or mechanical?
If your cop is soo good wheres your patent?
Sincerely Sypherios
Sypherios:
As you should my friend. It is mechanical. I know about patents, I have a few. It would be a waste of my time and resources to go for a patent. This information belongs in the public domain anyways.
What I have done is confront a major cynic. You may have noticed that I am calling for a test, that?s where the proof is.
@handy man 1,
maybe some pier review, from other people here on this site with replications is in order. can you post more information about your power device? it sounds interesting! you have my attention and i am sure others, however at this point i will have to be a little reserved for i havn't seen what you got! please understand that you are not the first person to make the claim of cop>1, but you can still be the first to show it. are you working with a theory or an actual device? it sounds like you actually have something.
lol
sam
Hay Sam:
I have an actual working device. Some people expect the device to power a car or their house. It isn?t going to happen without the input of numerous people over time.
I have been concentrating on the testing and don?t have a lot written up yet. I?ll be happy to give what I have.
Before I get to far, I would like to say that I have spent a year trying to prove myself wrong. I have done extensive cross testing with lamps, LEDs, resistors, etc. I have changed the setup and wires and the measuring devices. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the device works as claimed. After hundreds of tests, it?s very apparent if there are any changes in the outcome. A data recorder is the way to go.
I do have some photos on the free_energy yahoo group. There not very good, I?ll try again soon. The answer has been right under everyone?s noses! I was going for the least and ended up with the most.
The device is powered by a 1.2-volt 500mAh AA battery. Eight differential channels are required for the full test, with four-channel minimum. The input is peak 1+amps, and .9 volts. The output is peak .1+ amps and up to 60 volts, and operates at 2-10Hz as an approximation range.
A short history: I asked the question, ?what if I eliminated or radically reduced the main heat causing forces in electric motors and generators (Eddy currents, hysteresis, and back emf). Yeah I laughed to; nonetheless, I experimented for 6 months with a coil of Radio Shack wire and hardware store magnets. The results were that I found a way of producing electricity, which was equal in power to a Faraday plunge action, but without the back emf etc... So I ordered wire and rare earth magnets, built the device, and it works!
Of course, there is no free lunch. In this device, the working power is paid for in a half cycle, in the form of just amperage not voltage. The payment half cycle has a power ratio of just under to just over one, which leaves the second half of the cycle with a very large power ratio.
T
here are several other notably odd workings of this apparatus. I do have to say (with no proof) that the excess power is coming from the output coil, not from the void, vacuum, rip in space- time, etc. The reasons for the successes of the device are that the ?forces? are no longer fighting each other, or, have been eliminated. At the most, the forces are bumping into each other rather than opposing each other. Using an almost drained battery shows the highest power ratios. A purely resistive load does not equal a power factor of one, and I cannot find any heat even in the resistors. I know there is supposed to be, but!
I have to use the term power ratio and not efficiency because the workings of the device do not come close to being efficient. It turns out that precision, and mechanical friction are not major issues.
Go ahead my friend ask questions!
David Middleton
Hi David,
Would like to know if you already considered using a DC/DC converter that would accept your output DC voltage (up to some ten Volts, you wrote up to 60V) and would give out a stabil 1.2V DC at around 1A peak?
I think for instance of such circuits like the second one in this link (though its input is only 12V and its output is set to 1.5V, as shown): http://ludens.cl/Electron/dcdc/dcdc.html but there are many other practical circuits that would nicely fulfill your needs to close the loop. (The 78S40 converter chip accepts up to 40V input and gives output from 1.25V and up, see data sheet here: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM78S40.pdf
This way you would get rid of the rather problematic output power measurements tasks everyone rightly nags you on and on... The efficiency of such DC/DC converters is generally around 70-85%, in some cases over 90% so you could close the loop?
I have just seen your pictures of your setup at free_energy yahoo group, very interesting coil shapes you made, reminds me of Bedini windows motor of a kind? Nevertheless, a schematics would be appreciated...
Thanks,
Gyula
Hi David,
This looks very similar to Mike's motor and those windings look massive.
Are you driving the rotor with the same coils that pickup the output?
Regards
Rob
@ handyman 1,
see i told you. you build it, they will come, the EXPERTS, it will do you alot of good to listen to what these guys have to say!!!
lol
sam
Hay Gyula:
I haven?t even considered any means to have the apparatus self run. In my humble opinion its more important for me to prove that a power ratio over one is possible. This would be the first step. Once that is established, smart guys like you can work on the self running part.
Before I hook it to itself, efficiency has to be addressed. What I?m saying is that the apparatus configuration is in the ballpark. There is no way I can say exactly how big the output coils should be. The larger coil has the best output. I am using 15ga wire for the driver coil. I suspect a 12ga. Driver coil with less turns would improve the operation. I am using 29 ga. Wire for the Output coil. However, I believe that a thinner ga. would also increase the output.
FYI, The 1.2-volt cell come about by my initial intent of finding out, how much power out I could get from the minimum amount of power input. The apparatus can be run on a greater input and shows the same power ratio.
I am working on a schematic now. Hopefully it will be done it a week or so.
David middleton
Hay Group: (sent to free_energy group
The input is coming from a cell, 1.2-volt, 500mAh. The cell runs voltage and amperage through a coil creating an electromagnet. Suspended above the coil is a permanent magnet. When power is sent through the coil the permanent magnet moves. When the power is reversed the permanent magnets reverse. The magnets do not spin 360 degrees. It?s more like 45 degrees each way. The permanent magnets that are suspended above the driver coil is attached to a axle. When the driver coil magnets move the axle moves. Attached to the same axle are a set of magnets suspended over coils. Power is sent through the electromagnet moving the driver magnets, which in turn moves the axle which moves the generator magnets. Simply put, electricity in electricity out. Can?t get any easier than this.
How this relates to urinals and snake oil is beyond me.
The copper colored coil is the driver coil (motor). The driver input is separate from the three output coils (generators). On the larger apparatus, there is one driver coil and two output coils. One half cycle, of one output coil matches the input power. The second half of the cycle is power above and beyond the input power. The second output coil?s output, is completely ?free?. The second apparatus has a driver coil and one output coil. The second apparatus?s driver coil is hooked in parallel with the first driver coil. The second apparatus?s output is also above and beyond the input power.
Individually and as a whole the power ratio is great enough so that even an ?expert? can tell.
Say I do hook it to its self. How long does the device have to run to ?prove? power ratio?s over one? There is absolutely nothing ?scientific? about that sort of test. An ?expert? should be able to measure the input, output, without such an unscientific test. If someone can tell me how power factor can be calculated from that test I?ll listen.
The objections I pointed out in Eric Krieg?s challenge still stand.
As clearly as I can; I can prove that a power ratio over one is possible. I have no intentions on showing how ?long? the apparatus can run. Proof can be obtained from one complete cycle.
If an ?expert? cannot test with modern test equipment, then the ?expert is not an expert?.
David Middleton
hey david,
why don't you just make a video of your device running and post it? why have you not thought about closing the loop? you say you have done extensive testing for over a year, and yet you have not been concerned at all about the power used to do the testing of a free energy device? sounds a little strange to me. let's say i am from missouri, show me!!!! if it sounds to good to be true it probably is.
lol
sam
Hay Sam:
I am in the process now. I have just completed the rough draft of the material list, assembly, and operating procedures. I am concerned about you using the term ?free energy?. Ask ten people what ?free energy? is and you will get ten different answers. In my humble opinion, there is no such thing. Nowhere in my writings will you find that term. I don?t use the term ?over unity? either. Again, ask ten people?
First and foremost my goal is to provide proof the first law of thermodynamics is incorrect. Cynics maintain that the only proof is to close the loop. That?s pure ignorance and a slap in the face to the engineers who take voltage measurements every day. I am absolutely amazed that cynics and skeptics alike would accept ?anything? as being absolutely correct. Anyways, I will be posting on the Yahoo OU-builders group first. There, people are willing to walk the walk more so than talk the talk. Know what I mean? I really don?t mind bantering on the subject, but the cynics, ?no you can?t?liar? is really getting old, and completely un-useful. I am fortunate to be alive in this century and not in Galliano?s!
Specifically addressing your question of ?closing the loop?. Sam, lets do some critical thinking together. From the alleged thousands of so-called ?Free energy? devices, what do they have in common? Right, they all hooked the output to the input, and failed miserably. A part of science is understanding failures and not repeating them.
You sound like an intelligent young man. I hope you make an apparatus yourself. This is new physics. Instead of fighting it, please join in.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
Hi Handyguy,
I wonder if your device is related to the EBM:
http://www.gammamanager.com/
This seems to have slanted coils or coils offset from the diameter line of the rotor.
I would be interested to see the results of a test run with a fixed load like a lamp (showing current/voltage), and the input current/voltage readings.
You may need to rectify/smooth the output to enable you to get an accurate output result.
It does not look difficult to build this and I am sure a lot of people on this forum would jump at the chance of replicating it.
I have a rotor all setup and ready to go, just need to add the coils + control circuit:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN4986.jpg&hash=4e0b479e6733a95093cfb74a48926fda76134588)
Regards
Rob
Hi David,
I basically agree with you on the question of looping i.e. people experience failure. Why? Because people building such devices ought to possess the gift of the "Jack of all trades" in a positive sense: they ought to be professional electrical, mechanical, chemical and so forth engineers (besides the ability of thinking outside of the box) in order to realize the nature of the extra output, how it could be REGULATED and MATCHED with the lowest loss possible before looping back to the input.
It is even possible that the received output does not come in a form we get used to and handling it in a conventional way invariably leads to failure.
I understand your goal of providing proof of the first law of thermodynamics being incorrect but then you have to really find a smaller group of people who are willing to find proper means of measuring the output with respect to the input power. You seem to have made this step to find that yahoo group you have hinted at and I hope you will have favorable reception than at free_energy group. The latter is thoroughly moderated as you may have noticed.
I would still be interested in understanding the principle of your device.
EDIT: You wrote you had eliminated or radically reduced the main heat causing forces like eddy currents hysteresis and back emf. I know how you did the first two but how you solved the question of back emf that is one of my main questions... Another puzzle is what you also wrote: "A pure resistive load does not equal a power factor of one and I cannot find any heat even in the resistors". This would mean a different kind of electricity is coming out from your output coil? I guess the trick maybe is you connect coils in parallel? Can you say you reduce the effect of Lenz law in the output coil(s) too with the parallel connections? Or with something else... ;)
Thanks
Gyula
Hay Gyula:
How refreshing; It?s oblivious that you have done some critical thinking on this subject! I just posted to ou_builders, and uploaded two videos to you tube. I?d be happy to have you join the ou_builders group.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
In an orbital system rotating at a given and constant speed arcs of equal length (at equal radii) represent equal amounts of time. From this view it's a given that time has an equivalence to distance.
The compression of the energy from arc adc into arc xby will cause an imbalance of power. You would have the same energy happening in less time (P = E/t).
There are several unfortunate facts of reality to consider.
- This compression of energy (if it's diametrically opposed in time) will cause an imbalance of power causing the rotation to slow then reverse.
- If the imbalance of power isn't diametrically opposed the situation is worse. :)
- You will be required to supply the energy to cause the compression. You can't just pull energy out your arse.
- It does not matter if the system is electrical or mechanical or a combination of the two. You can't create energy. The energy on one side will equal that on the other unless there is some source entering into the contraption. The contraption won't create the energy to compress the energy it produces to give you ?more power? with ?energy to spare.? Not happening.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 05, 2008, 08:30:49 AM
. . .
I haven?t even considered any means to have the apparatus self run. In my humble opinion its more important for me to prove that a power ratio over one is possible. This would be the first step. Once that is established, smart guys like you can work on the self running part.
. . .
David middleton
There is no means of this contraption to "self run" unless you are using energy from without the contraption. Impossible.
Bessler007
mib HQ
Oh!
to mailto:Handyguy1@verizon.net,
I am sorry you do not like my test terms. But in my study of free energy claims, I have seen a long list of times where people make mistakes measuring input power or output power. People like Dennis Lee and Joe Newman have been faking readings for a long time. If I had time, I would travel around looking at all the readings-instrumentation and figuring out where they are wrong. I just don't want to play that. My view is someone smart enough to be the first one in a hundred years of training, that they also would be smart enough to do the much easier job of at least making a self runner. I'm not willing to give a prize out for a self runner, but given the pathetic record of people offering "proof", I think I am willing to at least validate any real self runner. I never understood Newman's explanation that his device would make extra electricity, but for some reason could not be made to run off that excess energy. Just capture it in a different set of batteries and keep swapping them back and forth.
I would much rather believe OU can be done and then help make the extra energy save our country from giving trillions to countries that hate us for black poison.
eric krieg
www.phact.org/e/freetest.html
Quote from: erickrieg on January 19, 2008, 09:03:40 PM
to mailto:Handyguy1@verizon.net,
I am sorry you do not like my test terms. But in my study of free energy claims, I have seen a long list of times where people make mistakes measuring input power or output power. People like Dennis Lee and Joe Newman have been faking readings for a long time. If I had time, I would travel around looking at all the readings-instrumentation and figuring out where they are wrong. I just don't want to play that. My view is someone smart enough to be the first one in a hundred years of training, that they also would be smart enough to do the much easier job of at least making a self runner. I'm not willing to give a prize out for a self runner, but given the pathetic record of people offering "proof", I think I am willing to at least validate any real self runner. I never understood Newman's explanation that his device would make extra electricity, but for some reason could not be made to run off that excess energy. Just capture it in a different set of batteries and keep swapping them back and forth.
I would much rather believe OU can be done and then help make the extra energy save our country from giving trillions to countries that hate us for black poison.
eric krieg
www.phact.org/e/freetest.html
You post the URL for your Free Energy Machine Test Prize Offer:
You claim that you want to see free energy become a reality
I have spent the last hour or 2 going over your compatition rules and the links on that page.
My conclusion is that there is in reality no chance of anyone winning.
It is my opinion that your offer is only a way to help you discredit any one that has an important breakthrough.
When I go through the links on the URL you gave I found nothing but reasons that over unity is impossable . ALL given as if they were facts cast in stone.
There was one link claiming evidence of overunity .........but that link didn't work .
Perhaps I missed some important information .
Perhaps you have actually done some experments with overunity .
If so please send me a URL of your results.
If there are no results . I may call you Eric but I will be thinking of you as Mr Black Poison
gary
Dear Mr. Krieg:
I?m not sure who is more stubborn, you or me! I hope you read over my post at ou_builders, viewed the photos, and checked out the You Tube videos. I would be honored if you would join in.
I am also surprised that you mention capturing the excess in a different set of batteries. That is the way to do it. I would dump the power into a cap first. That way there is no backpressure on the output coils. However, replacing one of the three 29-gauge output coils with a 21-gauge coil and diode works quite nicely charging a cell. I am also surprised that no one has asked me what my theory is. I don?t have one. I can say the excess energy is coming from the coil of wire.
Being ?smart enough? really had nothing to do with it. I simply followed the scientific principal. I find it funny when people tell me I need to learn physics and the principals of electricity. It was quite the contrary; I had to learn in excruciating detail exactly what electricity is, in order to know what I needed to change.
Quite honestly, I was waiting for the ORBO device to prove it?s self. That would have taken a lot of pressure off me! However, I am an ex-marine sergeant. Having gone through the old school at Paris Island, there is not a lot that fazes me, and I learned, the first one that resorts to name-calling loses.
Enough of my blabbering. Again, I clearly state that I am not interested in your prize money. I would be interested in you testing this device. You have mentioned contacts, perhaps they would be interested. In any event, someone is bound to replicate this simple device, if for no other reason than to prove me ?delusional!
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
Hay Gary:
Well done, You are spot on! Here are the private e-mails that have been exchanged between us.
>Hay Mr. Krieg:
>
>Are you ready to test my apparatus yet?
depends, if you can get it near me in eastern pa, sure. otherwise, I would need a local press person to confirm you would pass my terms at
www.phact.org/e/freetest.html
- then I would be willing to fly out on my nickel, tell me more about what you offer
Dear Mr. Krieg:
I am quite shocked at getting a response from you. Evidently, I failed to express my attitude adequately on your test protocol. Your requirement ?I would need a local press person to confirm you would pass my terms? is also not realistic. There is no way that a ?press person? would understand anything about the device.
Straight out, I am not interested in your prize. I am interested in getting my apparatus tested. Therefore, if you are willing to conduct a test, forgoing your test protocols, I am willing to forgo the prize.
Simply put electricity in - electricity out. My exact claim: I have invented an apparatus that clearly shows a power ratio over one, thus violating the first law of thermodynamics.
By the end of this week, I should have the material list, assembly instructions, and operating procedures finished. I propose when I am finished, I send the material to you, for your examination. This way we should have a meeting of the minds before any testing.
In the mean time, I have no objections sending you a screen capture of the waveforms and a moment-by-moment reading of the values, in excel format, generated by a data recorder.
I look forward to our meeting.
Sincerely;
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
David,
my thoughts that come to mind about mere OU:
anyone smart enough or creative enough to be the first after thousands of losers to get real OU should have no problem looping enough back to supply all needed input power. The reason this is important is that there have been so many cases of power power measurement done of input and output power. Some engineers have made mistakes that have gotten people all excited about devices actually under unity. How much do you think it would take you to convert your device to run off excess output power after some start up procedure?
and aside from that, what input powers and output powers have you confirmed so far?
eric
SIR:
?mere OU:? Now that?s funny!!! The technical term is power ratio. My creativity or intelligence is not preventing me from completing the ?loop?, quite the contrary. I can?t speak to your allegation of ?thousands of losers?. Just how many of those ?losers? inventions have you tested? Did you do any scientific research, or are you parroting what someone else said? Can you recite just one testers means and conclusions, and how does that relate to the thousands of others? I certainly hope your answer isn?t ?because there not on the market?.
I am confused here. You make reference to ?engineers..mistakes?, then state ?actually under unity?. How was it determined that the devices are in fact ?under unity?? Most certainly, the tests were conducted with testing equipment. That makes me wonder if the testers were accurate, after all if they were wrong saying yea, nothing saying they were not wrong saying nay.
I?m just trying to get a handle on where you are coming from. Are you telling me that you are incompetent to take actual voltage measurements? I just plain don?t understand the problem you are having.
Aside from that.
The power ratio from one of the three generators is over 300%. That doesn?t include the power from the other two generators. When I say ?clearly a power ratio over one? that?s exactly what I mean.
Please sir, if you are not qualified to do such testing, just say so, and I?ll waste your time no longer.
I would appreciate a truthful answer.
Sincerely,
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
___----------____
Mr. Krieg has lost all creditability as far as I am concerned.
You can have OU without looping. Also, you can have OU and never be able to loop.
Your output at .1 amps - 60 volts would suggest 6 watts output. But how did you measure this?
Can someone please post on this thread the pics on the other forum(s) as well as the links to the videos so we don't have to wade through so many sites, etc. Just a waste of time.
Quote from: wattsup on January 20, 2008, 10:33:50 AM
You can have OU without looping. Also, you can have OU and never be able to loop.
Your output at .1 amps - 60 volts would suggest 6 watts output. But how did you measure this?
Can someone please post on this thread the pics on the other forum(s) as well as the links to the videos so we don't have to wade through so many sites, etc. Just a waste of time.
Hi Wattsup,
Here are two links to the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E
Regarding the pictures, I think it is up to Dave' wish to upload them here.
Gyula
Quote
Hi Wattsup,
Here are two links to the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E
Regarding the pictures, I think it is up to Dave' wish to upload them here.
Gyula
Thanks for the links Gyula
Dave
All I know about your idea is what I have seen on this thread.
The Utube vidieos gave me an idea of what you are trying to do but also left alot of questions
The longer of the 2 videos showed 2 machines running . I could only see one thing that looked like a battery.
Was the battery powering both machines or was one driving the other.
How long will it run on that battery ?
I assume that the flashing lights are banks of LEDs
I am much better with mechanical stuff than I am with electrical stuff.
I can see that the reciprocation of your machine is using quite a bit of energy .
If it could be converted into smooth circular motion you could probably at least double the output.
I don't know if I can find it . but I saw a site that showed a guy with a machine that had huge coils and circular motion.
I will try to find that link later today . I am pretty sure it was a U tube video .
gary.
it wasn't turning real fast but it was running.
Gyulasun, thanks for putting up the video links. At least now we know what this thread is about.
As for the design, I think it is very very smart indeed.
From what I can see, the rotors are not turning, they are just rocking back and forth so they do not create peak BEMF. Pretty smart.
At the end of the 3 rocker unit, there is a perpendicular shaft that knocks on the floor, one side then the other, etc. Under it is another plane that is probably spring loaded to provide some free return to the rotors. There are also what seems to be some micro contacts at the end of the shaft used to cut and/or switch polarities on the coils.
There are green coils and brown coils. Maybe one is the drive coil and the other is a generator coil. The coils seems rather big with lots of winding. I don't know if all that winding is warranted or not as it would seem such rocker motion could be done with less.
Now if all of this is running with that small battery, there is definitely something here worth looking into. Just the basic design could have some interesting offshoots so we will have to wait and see if more info will be made available.
Hay wattsup:
You are very observant. The copper colored coil is the driver coil (15-gauge), the green coils are output or generator coils 29-gauge. There are micro switches, and they change the polarity of power going into the driver coil. Both units are being run from the same battery and switch assembly. I am using the four micro switches so I only have to use one battery. A diode has a negative effect on the input power.
There is a lot of interest and confusion on the device (my fault), so I?ll post the same details as I posted on ou_builders. It will take me a little bit, but I post pictures here to.
There is a lot of confusion about the waveforms and associated math, so what I?ll do is, anyone who wants it I?ll send them in an e-mail attachment. If you don?t want your e-mail made public, send me your e-mail address via my e-mail listed below. The program to open the file is free at http://www.dataq.com/?source=googledq
The program is Windaq waveform browser. If you ?save as? check box #5 for spreadsheet. Opening it in excel you will get moment-by-moment readings. Line 1 is input voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor (for input amps). Line 2 is voltage input at the driver coil terminals. Line 3 is the output voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor (for output amps). Line 4 is voltage output measured at the output coils terminals.
This was taken with an almost dead battery. I calculate one cycle starting at a zero voltage on line four. Zero to zero is one-half cycle. I don?t know why I didn?t think of this earlier. It should help clear things up. If you want to see how I do the math, I can send a second attachment with my calculations.
Thanks for your interest.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
Hay Group:
The following is not one hundred percent complete, however it is a good start. Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. There are two videos on you tube, under the heading, power ratio over one!
PS: Here are the links to the videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HHQzWyLTBI and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUcmYiHF5E
David Middleton?s Power Ratio Over One
Proof of concept apparatus
Material List:
1. Base; the base is a ?? thick x 8?wide x 28? long, pine board
1-B. Base support ? scrap ?? boards
2. Axle support; 4 wood block supports measuring, 5? long, 1? wide, 1.5?high
3. Axle 1/8? x 30?
3-A- 4? axle overhang
4. Teeter engaging lever (1) hard wood, 5.5? long, 1? wide, 1/8? thick
5. Fender washers (10) 1/8? x 1?
6. Hex Nuts (40) 6x32
7. Washers (20) 1/8? x 13/16?
8. Axle alignment eye hook, (4) #
9. Plastic tubing ?? x 12?
10. Screws (4) 1.25?
11. NdFeB grade N40,Neodymium magnets, (6) ?? thick 4? long 1? wide(magnet4less.com)
12. Micro switch (4) Cherry ? E51
13. Bolt, (6) 1/8? x 3?
14. Copper nails (2) 1.5?
15. Driver coil, single strand, magnet wire 15 gauge, inside opening 4-5/8? long, 1-5/8? wide, ?? thick, weight
15a, ?? thick lauan
16. Output coil, double strand, 29 gauge, ?? thick, opening same as driver coil, approx. 3+-LBS
17. Output coil, double strand, 29 gauge, ?? thick, opening same as driver coil, approx. 4+-LBS
18. Switch base, ?? x 8? x 16?
19. Teeter board, hard wood, 5.5? long, ?? wide, ?? thick
20. Teeter ell bracket support, ?? wide, 1-1/2 x 1-1/2? cut to fit
21. Switch support block, ?? thick, 1-1/2? long, 1? tall
22. Cell holder
23. Power in terminals, Copper nails (2) 1-1/2?
24. Output attachment terminals, copper nails (2) 1-1/4?
Additionally: Scrap ?? boards
MPR>1 Assembly
By far the most challenging part of this reproduction will be spinning the coils. Several internet sites explain the process quite well. A few pointers starting with the driver coil; I used 15-gauge wire. I suspect that using a heaver gauge wire with fewer turns would have a beneficial effect. The windings have to be as tight as possible. As shown in the photos, the coil is wrapped in tape in an attempt to keep the coil as tight as possible. Still, when the device is running if I push down on the coils I can clearly hear the speed pick up. The placement of the axle supports (#2) and the magnets (#11) depends on the size of the coils, so the coils will have to be made first. That said:
1. On the base (#1), measure and draw a line lengthwise down the center from end to end.
2. On each axle support (#2), measure for the center, draw a line across the center and down each side. The purpose being, the lines on the axle support (#2)will line up with the center line on the base (#1) to keep the axle (#3) straight, and the line on top of the axle support block (#2) will be where the eye hook (#8) is screwed in.
3. Screw in the eyehook (#8) into the axle support blocks (#2) on the top centerline. Leave about (1/8?) of the shaft exposed.
4. Place one of the axle support blocks (#2) at one end of the base (#1) aligning the centerlines. From under the base, screw one stainless steel screw (#10) up into the axle support, anywhere along the length.
5. Cut a piece of lauan slightly larger than the driver coil (#15). Use hot glue to glue the driver coil (#15) to the lauan. Place the glued down driver coil (#15) against the axle support (#2) that was secured in place in step (4).
6. Screw a nut (#13) onto the axle (#3) approximately 4-1/4? from one end of the axle (#3). Slide two fender washers (#5) on to the axle (#3) followed by another nut (#13). Leave approximately 4-1/2? between the nuts (#13). Leave approximately 3? of the axle (#3) overhanging the first axle support (#2) to (Later) attach the Teeter engaging lever (#4).
7. Place the second axle support block (#2) a distance of a ?? away from the driver coil (#15) and use a stainless steel screw (#10) to secure the second axle support from underneath, be sure to align the center lines.
8. Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
9. From the long end of the axle (#3) screw a nut (#13)followed by two fender washers (#5)and another nut (#13) approximately 13? from the shorter end.
10. Place the first output coil (#16) on the base (#1) approximately ?? from the second axle support (#2).
11. Slide the third axle supports (#2) eye hook (#8) down the axle (#3) to approximately ?? away from the output coil (#16).
12. Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
13. From the long end of the axle (#3) screw a nut (#13)followed by two fender washers (#5)and another nut (#13)
14. Place the second output coil (#17) on the base (#1) approximately ?? from the third axle support (#2).
15. Slide the forth axle supports (#2) eye hook (#8) down the axle (#3) to approximately ?? away from the output coil (#16).
16. Place the second axle support block (#2) a distance of a ?? away from the driver coil (#15) and use a stainless steel screw (#10) to secure the second axle support from underneath, be sure to align the center lines.
17. Cut a piece of tubing (#9) approximately 3-1/4? long. Slide the tubing (#9) from the long end of the axle (#3) through the eyehook (#8).
18. Installing the permanent magnets (#11) over the coils (#15,16,17)
Space the hex nuts (#13) and fender washers (#5) at least 4-1/2? apart. Tape the fender washers (#5) to the axle(#3). Place one of the magnets (#11) between the fender washers (#5). The axle (#3) should be in the middle of the magnet (#11). If you value your digests wear leather work gloves to set the second magnet (#11) in line with the first. Use 4 nuts (#13) as spacers, two above and two below the axle (#3). Un tape the fender washers (#5). Adjust the magnets (#11) to the centers of the coils (#15, 16, and 17). Do the driver coil (#15) first, then the other two. Snug the hex nuts (#13) up with your fingers. This is where it gets tricky! I use a 3? crescent wrench, but an open-end wrench will do. The trick is to approach the nuts (#13) longitudinally along the axle (#3). If you do not, the magnet will snatch the wrench, and it is quite the struggle to get it off! Whichever pole is facing you, make sure the others match. Use a compass.
19. On the 3? axle (#3) overhang, Install the teeter engaging lever (#4) with a nut (#13) and fender washer (#5) on each side, tighten.
THE SWITCHES
1. The switch (#12) base (#18) has two slots. From an edge, one slot is 1? from the edge and the second is 4-1/4? from the edge. A saw blade width is acceptable. The slots should extend about 5? from the back end of the base (#18)
2. Set the switch support block(#21) on a flat surface. Set a switch (#12) in front of the Support block (#21). Using a finish nail or equivalent push the nail through each aperture to make a divot.
3. Drill 1/8? holes through the switch support blocks (#21) using the divots as a guide.
4. Drill a 1/8? hole down centered through the top of the switch support block
5. Insert two bolts (#13) through the two apertures on the front of the switches (#12), followed by hex nuts (#6).
6. Screw on another hex nut (#6) on each bolt (#13) approximately ?? from the first hex nut (#6)
7. Slide the second switch onto the bolt (#13) up to hex nut (#6), followed by the switch support block (#21), followed by another nut (#6)
8. Insert a bolt (#13) through the slot, up from the bottom of the switch base (#18) followed by a washer (#7) and another hex nut (#6).
9. Screw yet another hex nut (#6) on the upright bolt (#13) approx 1? from the preceding hex nut (#6)followed by a washer (#7)
10. Slide the switch support block (#21) down onto the upright bolt (#13) followed by a washer (#7) and another nut
11. Position the switches (#12-A and 12AA) levers, so that line up, this should automatically align switch levers (#12-B and 12-BB)
12. The distance between switch levers (#12-A and 12-B) is approximately 1?.
13. Half way between the switch levers is the teeter support and board (#19 and 20)
14. The teeter support (#20) is a standard ell bracket. Starting in the center at each end, a grove is cut longitudinally, wide enough to accompany an 1/8? bolt (#13). One end is secured to the switch base (# 18) with a bolt and nut assembly through the middle slot. In the vertical portion of the ell bracket (#20) a bolt (#13), nut (# 6) and washers (#7)are fastened.
15. The teeterboard (#19) is slid onto the horizontal bolt and loosely secured with a washer and nut assembly.
The wiring
1. Switch (#12-A) common terminal to terminal (#23-A)
2. Switch (#12-A) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-A)
3. Switch (#12-AA) common terminal to terminal (#23-B)
4. Switch (#12-AA) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-B)
5. Switch (#12-B) common terminal to terminal (#22-A)
6. Switch (#12-B) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#23-B)
7. Switch (#12-BB) common terminal to terminal (#23-A)
8. Switch (#12-BB) NO (center) terminal to terminal (#22-B)
Power in
1. Positive to terminal (#22-A)
2. Negative to terminal (#22-B)
Adjustments
The coils:
1. At the 3? axle, overhang end, Position the driver coil under the permanent magnets. Insert a second and third piece of lauan under the coil. Looking down on the coil, rock the magnets back and forth make sure the coils center is centered on the magnets, and there is no danger of the magnets hitting the coil. Drill down through the lauan into the base, in front of and behind the magnets. Insert a nail or screw through the holes.
2. Output coils: Position the output coil under the permanent magnets. Place a scrap ?? board under the coils l. Looking down on the coil Rock the magnets back and forth make sure the coils center is centered on the magnets, and there is no danger of the magnets hitting the coil. No need to anchor the output coils down.
The switches
There are several options for the switch adjustments. My first choice was to use a diode; however, they had a noticeable negative effect. My second choice was to use two switches and two power sources (batteries), however, the possibility of getting a bleed over between the batteries was a possibility. Using four switches and one battery, the possibility of incorrect readings is greatly reduced.
1. With the teeter board holding down switch levers 12-B and 12-BB:
a. Using a pencil with an eraser; push down the lever of switch 12-B. If you hear a click, an adjustment is needed, by adjusting the height of the teeterboard or the switch itself.
b. With the teeterboard, depressing switch levers 12-B and BB, switches 12-A and AA should both click when depressed.
Here are the pictures from David from the ou_builders yahoogroup:
I think,
this infofrom David was not yet posted:
Re: Power ratio over one
Test Procedures
Electromagnetic driver coil (Motor)
The driver coil is powered by a typical 1.2-volt rechargeable
battery. There are four mechanical micro switches controlling the
movement of the permanent magnet rotor (axle). Each switch
represents one pole of the battery. Each set of switches represents
one direction of the permanent magnets. Input measurements are taken
on the downstream side of the switches. In this analysis, the power
requirements etc. for the mechanical micro switches are not accounted
for. The data recorder test leads, attach directly to the driver coil
terminals, recording the input voltage. By placing a .05-Ohm 1%
precision current sense resistor, between one driver coil terminal
and a switch post, the voltage across the resistor is measured, and
divided by .05.
Output coil, (Generator)
The output coil's permanent magnets attach to the same rotor (axle)
as the driver coil permanent magnets. The voltage is taken at the
output coils terminals. A .05-Ohm precision current sense resistor
attaches to one terminal and the load, which is a 100K ohm resistor.
The voltage across the precision resistor is divided by .05. (Also,
See scienceshareware.com)
Channel settings
Channel 1 represents input volts across a .05 Ohm 1% precision
current sense resistor. (Gain=256) (3600Hz)
Channel 2 represents input volts measured at the driver coil
terminals. (Gain=32) (3600Hz)
Channel 3 represents (output) volts across a .05Ohm 1% precision
current sense resistor. (Gain=512) (3600Hz)
Channel 4 represents (output) volts at the output coil terminals.
(Gain=1) (3600Hz)
Run test-RMS Mode:
Export moment by moment results to Excel.
Column A, is input voltage across the .05 Ohm resistor. ---Insert
column---
Column B, is column A divided by .05, giving input amperage.
Column C, is input voltage. ?insert two columns
Column D, is column B (Amps) times column C (Volts) = VA=Apparent
power input).
Column E is blank
Column F is output voltage across a .05 Ohm 1% resistor. ?insert
column?
Column G is column F divided by .05, for output amperage.
Column H is output voltage.
Column I is column G (Amps) * column H (Volts)= VA=Apparent power
output.
Finding RMS values for amperage and voltage from moment to moment
readings in the RMS mode.
In Excel, =sqrt(sumsq(B1:B10)/counta(B1:B10)) RMS=VA or Apparent
Power.
Finding True Average power =AVERAGE(B1:B10)
Using a spreadsheet compute the product of the voltage and current
for each sample. These values are the instantaneous power. Sum the
instantaneous power values. Then divide this sum by the number of
samples in the cycle. This value is the true average power.
Power Factor Computation.
The power factor is the average power divided by the apparent power.
The apparent power is Vrms * Irms.
PF*Avg. volts*Avg. Amps= TRUE Average POWER
Power Ratio= True output Power / True Input Power
Cycle= starting at zero volts output , through a positive and
negative cycle, first half, second half and complete cycle totals are
calculated.
--- In ou-builders@yahoogroups.com, "David Middleton" <handyguy1@...> wrote:
>
> Test Procedures
> ....Output coil, (Generator)
> The output coil's permanent magnets attach to the same rotor (axle)
> as the driver coil permanent magnets. The voltage is taken at the
> output coils terminals. A .05-Ohm precision current sense resistor
> attaches to one terminal and the load, which is a 100K ohm resistor.
> ...Channel 3 represents (output) volts across a .05Ohm 1% precision
> current sense resistor. (Gain=512) (3600Hz)
Hi Dave,
You have made a very interesting setup indeed. (I have just seen the 2 videos too.)
At overunity.com you wrote: "The device is powered by a 1.2-volt 500mAh AA battery. .... The input is peak 1+amps, and .9 volts. The output is peak .1+ amps and up to 60 volts, and operates at 2-10Hz as an approximation range."
And now I see you wrote using a 100K Ohm resistor as a load, of course you can but I would rather use 5 or 10 or 20 Ohm resistor as a load simply because these values approach practical useful loads like a lamp or LED array etc. Is the 100K Ohm a misprint? (It would mean only 0.5mA peak current at 50V peak output voltage. ) Because you use a Gain of 512 setting on Channel 3, I am afraid it is not a misprint. If you load your output coil(s) with a 10 Ohm resistor for instance, do you notice backdrag and some heat in the resistor already?
I am still interested in how you eliminated back emf as you wrote at overunity.com? Also what is the effect of Lenz law in your setup?
Probably you have thought of reducing the noise your device producing? I would suggest using elastic bumpers made from repel pole magnets. You could attach one-one magnet at the ends of the arm #4 and one-one magnet on the surface of the base where the arm normally knocks at. There would not be any knocking noise any more because the repel poles would never clap together. And due to the big flux change at the area between the two surfaces of the approaching repel magnets, you could use this as a means of getting extra induced output power in flat coils placed there. What do you think?
Regards, Gyula
Hay Gyula:
Very good questions! You are actually way ahead of me. The first law
of thermodynamics clearly states that I cannot get more out than what
was put in. "My primary goal" is to prove that is not true, verses
making a device to power a load. I am at the stage of just being
born, your thoughts are grown up and running. Does that make any
sense to you? Faraday made the first motor in 1821. The motor was
not useful until 1875. You clearly show that you practice critical
thinking, and have the ability to follow in Gramme and Siemens
footsteps. I strongly urge you to pursue that goal.
Starting with loading the coils with a 10-ohm resistor. Yes there is
a back drag. It actually stops the device. Using lamps stops the
device. LEDs will stop the device if I don't use enough of them,
However, if the voltage of the LEDs match the coils output, there is
no back drag whatsoever. I have no idea on why Lenz law does not
apply, it's beyond me.
I don't see using the device to directly power a load. Charging a
cap, then drawing off that keeps the device running as if there is no
load. In the video, the loads on the 3# coil (center coil) are 28
LEDs (14 forward, 14 reverse) in series. There are 18 LEDS (8 forward
8 reverse) in parallel, hooked in series with the 28 LEDs. The
voltages of the LEDs are 3.0 to 3.8 volts and the amperage
requirement is 25mA. Using 10mA's as a low requirement to power the
LEDs, that's 90mA's in total.
Using a 100k ohm resistor in series with a .05-ohm resistor, I can't
find any heat. Both resistors "feel" cold. Straight out, resistance
is a mystery to me.
As far as the noise is concerned, I decided to remove the cushions
under the teeterboard, to show the intensity of the movement. Yes,
there are several ways to reduce the noise. Your idea is one, another
is to put a piezoelectric type device under the teeterboard and
harvest more power that way.
--- In ou-builders@yahoogroups.com, "David Middleton" <handyguy1@...>
wrote:
> ... Starting with loading the coils with a 10-ohm resistor. Yes there
is
> a back drag. It actually stops the device. Using lamps stops the
> device. LEDs will stop the device if I don't use enough of them,
> However, if the voltage of the LEDs match the coils output, there is
> no back drag whatsoever. I have no idea on why Lenz law does not
> apply, it's beyond me.
Hi Dave, thanks for your kind words. I am sorry to hear that using a
10 Ohm load or similar stops your device. I think it shows you have
not defeted Lenz law in this setup.
> I don't see using the device to directly power a load. Charging a
> cap, then drawing off that keeps the device running as if there is no
> load. In the video, the loads on the 3# coil (center coil) are 28
> LEDs (14 forward, 14 reverse) in series. There are 18 LEDS (8 forward
> 8 reverse) in parallel, hooked in series with the 28 LEDs. The
> voltages of the LEDs are 3.0 to 3.8 volts and the amperage
> requirement is 25mA. Using 10mA's as a low requirement to power the
> LEDs, that's 90mA's in total.
Well, this means you load your output separately with respect to the
half waves, in one full cycle you load say the positive half wave only
at a time and then the negative half wave, never both at the same time.
While this is a clever thing to do you have to be very careful to
estimate the true load on the output.
> Using a 100k ohm resistor in series with a .05-ohm resistor, I can't
> find any heat. Both resistors "feel" cold. Straight out, resistance
> is a mystery to me.
But this is not a mistery now that we know you have had 100K Ohm as a
load because the current allowed to flow in it is under one microAmper,
hence its heating effect is barely noticable by us.
> As far as the noise is concerned, I decided to remove the cushions
> under the teeterboard, to show the intensity of the movement. Yes,
> there are several ways to reduce the noise. Your idea is one, another
> is to put a piezoelectric type device under the teeterboard and
> harvest more power that way.
Yes, piezoelectric devices are good but one has to find efficient ways
to convert their HV output into useful power (maybe with transformers).
I hope other members here would also comment their understandings on
your device.
Thanks, Gyula
Hi David,
One interesting thing I see in your
setup is, that you use low current and high voltage
at your LEDs to drive all the LEDs in series
for the output and that this is not dragging down
your magnet inside your coils.
Maybe this is the only way to overcome
Lenz?s law ?
As one could get the same power out from a
low turn coil for instance from 10 Volts and 1 Amp = 10 Watts
or from 1000 Volts and 10 milliamps = 10 Watts.
But if you load the second generator coils at 1000 Volts
just only with 10 milliamps, you might not get the
same drag onto the driving magnet
as in the first example, where you would have to extract
1 Amp ?
Normally it should be the same,
but maybe it is not with bigger coils.
Surely if you use pulsed output, so if you
chop up your output voltage and also use the BackEMF
from it you can get lots more power out without more drag.
That is one trick I learned from the Newman setups.
Just use a mechanically controlled toggle switch to shortout your
output coils each about repetive several 5 milliseconds ON / 5 ms OFF for each rotation
and use the BackEMF voltage from the coil
to power your series LED chain.
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
@HG
Just a quick note to tell you that you have given a good disclosure with videos, photos with numbered items , materials list, how to tune section, and more. Just a great disclosure that I think will interest many here to do a build. I will also look into ordering some more wire to try it out. On a scale from 1 to 10 for replication difficulty, I would give this a 4 or 5.
You are missing one thing though and it is MAJOR. A name. You need to call it something and I would recommend two words of one syllable each, like, Power Cradle, Energy Rocker, Juice Swing, etc.
I am already wondering about many variations, like taking a standard DC motor and cutting the rotor in half to let is swing inside the stator, back and forth. Like I said, this tech will give some offshoots.
Gotta run.
OFF TOPIC for Stefan.
One the Steven Mark's TPU thread, we cannot go to page 19. Page 18 goes well. When you post, you can and you see the posts of page 19, but there is no page 19, just a blank page. Hope it's nothing major.
Quote from: wattsup on January 21, 2008, 09:33:33 AM
@HG
You are missing one thing though and it is MAJOR. A name. You need to call it something and I would recommend two words of one syllable each, like, Power Cradle, Energy Rocker, Juice Swing, etc.
David
This is serious
Do you realise that you have violated the 3rd law of foolishness?
As one of the most well known skepitcs on this site I feel it is my duty to remind you of the laws of foolishness .
#1 ALL skepitcs are kind helpful and thoughtful people. We only insult your intelligence for your own good .
#2 No law of physics can ever be bent broken or even twisted .......they are LAWS .
If you jump out of a perfectly good airplane at 10,000 feet you are going to die .
The law of gravity doesn't stop for anyone.
Parashoots are a myth created by someone that wanted to see how many people he could get to jump out of perfectly good airplanes .
#3 Everything must be names and quantified .
With out names we can do nothing.
How can we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges if apples and oarnges don't have names?
I know that apples and oranges seem to look different, but with out propper names the differences are meaningless
I hope that this has been a helpfull refreasher
While I am at it .........don't forget the Skeptical theory of relativity.
S= M x E2
Skeptic = Mass times Ego squared
:)
Have a nice day
gary
Thank you Gary.
Quote
18. Installing the permanent magnets (#11) over the coils (#15,16,17)
Space the hex nuts (#13) and fender washers (#5) at least 4-1/2? apart. Tape the fender washers (#5) to the axle(#3). Place one of the magnets (#11) between the fender washers (#5). The axle (#3) should be in the middle of the magnet (#11). If you value your digests wear leather work gloves to set the second magnet (#11) in line with the first. Use 4 nuts (#13) as spacers, two above and two below the axle (#3). Un tape the fender washers (#5). Adjust the magnets (#11) to the centers of the coils (#15, 16, and 17). Do the driver coil (#15) first, then the other two. Snug the hex nuts (#13) up with your fingers. This is where it gets tricky! I use a 3? crescent wrench, but an open-end wrench will do. The trick is to approach the nuts (#13) longitudinally along the axle (#3). If you do not, the magnet will snatch the wrench, and it is quite the struggle to get it off! Whichever pole is facing you, make sure the others match. Use a compass.
David
I am assuming that the north and south poles of your magnets are on the flat sides
From what I have seen it is kind of hard finding large bar magnets that have the poles on the ends
By making them all the same do you mean that all magnets have the same pole up? either north or south .
That would make them stick together with the axle in the middle
Do you have any ideas on if a smaller version of this would work ?
I have been getting ready to start my own project . I can't spend alot on other projects right now .........but I do have some magnets and wire.
gary
Hay Gary:
Yes, the poles are on the faces. Yes, the magnets stick to the axle. Yes, I have a smaller version!
The first video shows just the primary device. The second video shows a smaller secondary device.
In the secondary device, you will notice the magnets are 2? long, ?? thick and 1? wide. The output coil weighs about 2-1/2 to 3 lbs... While I was waiting for my order of the larger magnets, I built the bigger coils. I just happened to use the larger driver coil with the 2? magnets, to see what would happen. It worked great, so I Put the larger (4? opening) output coils under the 2? magnets. That wasn?t so great. I built a second larger (4?opening) driver coil and use that with the secondary unit.
I started with large (200 or more turns) driver coils, and found that it didn?t work as well. The less turns on the driver coil the better. If you make about 140 wraps on the driver coil that will work fine. I have a suspicion that a heaver gauge wire for the driver coil and fewer turns would be an improvement.
If you have any questions, please ask, I?d be happy to answer them.
Hay Gary:
I forgot to mention a few things. The driver coil is a single strand. The output coils are double strands with one inside wire connected to the second wires outside end. In the Faraday fashion. I did try the double strand on the driver coil and it worked lousy. I haven?t spun a single strand output coil so I really don?t know if there are any benefits in the double strands. When you start measuring, be sure to use a partially drained battery. One other thing, a multi meter set on mA will stop the device, so you will have to take amperage reading by measuring the voltage across a precision resistor. I have been using a .05-ohm resistor, but a .01-ohm resistor will probably work better. I spun a few 21 gauge coils expecting low voltage and high amperage. I got the voltage, and low amperage. If you have enough wire and magnets, add a second output coil.
David Middleton
handyguy1@verizon.net
Hi David,
could you please draw up a circuit diagram,
that shows how you have connected your LEDs ?
Can you please show a few scopeshots of your output voltage
at the LEDs ?
Many thanks.
Hay Stefan:
On the top row, working from left to right, the first LEDs positive leg is on the left, followed by a second LED with the neg leg of the first LED connected to the pos leg of the second and so on.
The second row of LEDs (for reverse voltage)starting on the left, the neg leg is on the left, followed by the second LED, with the pos leg of the first LED connected to the neg leg of the second LED and so on.
The unconnected pos leg of the top left LED is connected to the second rows LEDs neg leg. The same on the right end.
The longer video shows 20 LEDs for the forward voltage and 20 LEDs for the reverse voltage on the far right coil.
The center coil has 14 forward LEDs and 14 for the reverse voltage. The center coil also has 8 LEDs for the forward and 8 LEDs for the reverse voltages that are hooked together in parallel. Those 16 parallel LEDs are hooked in series with the 28 previous mentioned LEDs.
All the LEDs are rated @ 3-3.8 volt and 25mA.
A scope shot is not possible. I am using a data recorder.
Note: The video?s power source is a fully charged 1.5-volt cell. What I sent you (the waveform) was an almost depleted 1.2 volt @ 500mAh cell. Does this help?
David Middleton
Hay Stefan:
Forgot to say a solderless breadboard will not work. To much resistance.
Hmm,
so every coil has around 8 to 28 LEDs ?
Or are the coils also wired in series ?
Did you try to see, if you turn the magnets with a real DC motor,
if the load of the LEDs really does not increase the input power
into the driving DC motor ?
Hay Stefan!
I have to laugh. This is new science! I spent a long time comparing this device to known electrical laws and they are just different. No, the coils are not connected in series or in any electrical way.
The driver coil and the output coils are only connected by the axle. In one experiment, I removed the center coil, to see if there was any bleed over, and there isn?t. I also tried to run current through the axle and it didn?t do anything.
I started with the small unit shown in the second video, which is one driver coil and one output coil. I got the same results. That?s what encouraged me to build the larger unit.
The magnets are easily moved using my fingers. That is how I know if there is any type of resistance generated, you can easily ?feel? it. All the LEDs light up quite nicely!
Testing the voltage is easy. Just to check, I used a cap and diode, hooked up my MM and the voltage readings are accurate. NOTE: anyone that tries this don?t change the MM settings when the leads are hooked up, bad things happen to the MM.
I initially used a reversing switch that I ?borrowed? from a reversible window fan, to operate the device. (If anyone is interested).
In another test, I held onto the output coil terminals, I did let go in a hurry!
I know this doesn?t answer your questions, the best I can do is show the readings from the data recorder, and explain the devices setup, and operation.
Feel free to ask any question, and I?ll try to answer the best I can.
David Middleton
@HG
Did you ever try to put two gen coils around one magnet, like you have now one coil under the magnet, and put a second coil on top of the magnet so the magnet is sandwiched between two gen coils. Since you are only presently using 180 degrees of the magnet swing rotation, why not capitalize on the magnet movement from all the way around.
So just to confirm one thing. The only power going to the LEDS is the result of the magnets swinging inside the gen coils. Is that correct? Or is there any battery power going to the LEDS also.
Last question, I have not seen any capacitor anywhere in the design. Surely you have tried them. Any comment on these?
Hay wattsup:
I did try sandwiching the magnets between two coils and had negative effects.
Correct, the only power going into the LEDs is the result of the magnets swinging inside the coils. There is no other power from the battery going into the LEDs.
No, I haven?t used caps in the design. There would have to be a whole circuit to convert the output of the cap to whatever it was powering. I have looked around at different circuits designs, but that is really outside of my expertise. If I do that I would fall into Garys 3 law of thermodynamics!
If you have a coil made up, attach the magnets to a long nail or screw and swing the magnets back and forth, with LEDs as the load. I am sure that you will be surprised at the results.
Okay, I got this Windaq data browser software running and got from David
his logging files, so I converted this to 2 GIF snapshots..
David please let us know, what we see in these 4 channels.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
I guess the lowest trace is an output voltage from a coil
showing for instance in the upper picture a maximum amplitude value
of around 38 Volts.
So you need to stack not more than 10 LEDs in series to get it
light up by this coil voltage, otherwise your LED series threshold voltage
would be too high and the LEDs would not light up.
David did you try to use a graetz rectifier bridge after the coil
to light up all LEDs, so you will get only always positive output voltage
and can use just one LED series stack with it ?
Hay Stefan:
Thank you for the help on posting this and the photos.
On both shots the top line is voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor, which when divided by .05, the input amperage is obtained. The look is deceiving. When you click on the channel number to the left the waveform increases in height. To put it in perspective you need to right click on the channel number.
The second line is the input voltage taken at the driver coil terminals.
The third line is voltage across a .05-ohm precision current sense resistor, which when divided by .05, the output amperage is obtained
The forth line is output voltage taken from the output coils terminals.
Both charts show the same half cycle. That half cycle shows what I call the payment half. If you post the next waveform you will notice that it is longer, and line three will show a higher voltage (amperage) reading.
If you look at both ends of line 3 in these charts, you will notice the waveforms are taller.
Input- first column is amps, second is voltage, the third is VA, total power is watts
RMS 0.317 0.441 0.14
Average 0.26 0.417 0.109
Power Factor 0.777
Total Power 0.084
Output-first column is amps, 2nd is volts, 3rd is VA, total power is Watts, 4th is power ratio
RMS 0.024 27.075 0.639
Average 0.017 25.698 0.441
Power Factor 0.691
Total Power 0.305 3.61511
These numbers were obtained from the instantaneous readings exported to excel. As you can see the power ratio is 361% for this half cycle. The power ratio in the second half waveform (not shown in either chart) is even higher!
This test was done with an almost depleted 1.2-volt 500mAh cell.
David Middleton
I should say that this is just one of the three coils!
Okay, I found now the horizontal compression display setup in the Winddaq
software.
Here is the waveform display from a few cycles on autoscale amplitudes:
I wonder,
why the current in the LEDs ( trace 3) is so noisy ?
Maybe you should use there a higher ohm shunt.
As the coils have probably around several hundred Ohm DC resistance
you could take a 10 or 100 Ohm shunt for measuring the current
in the LEDs much better...
Maybe you were already in the error range of your Windaq acquisation
analog to digital converter
hardware as the shunt voltages were too low...
Maybe there is the error coming from...
The current inside the LEDs should really follow the voltage of the coils
and be not so noisy...
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 22, 2008, 09:49:28 PM
I wonder,
why the current in the LEDs ( trace 3) is so noisy ?
.... The current inside the LEDs should really follow the voltage of the coils
and be not so noisy...
Hi Stefan and all,
I think we all know Trace 3 is noisy because the voltage drop across the 0.05 Ohm shunt resistor is only 2 or 3 times higher than the noise level of the data logger David uses.
Any instrument produces such noise when used in its most sensitive measuring range and the only remedy for this situation is to increase somehow the voltage to be measured. You rightly suggested increasing the value of the shunt resistor, I would use at least 1 Ohm or 5 Ohm shunt (this latter value would improve the situation 100 times). Of course the power wasted in this higher value resistor should be accounted for in the final evaluation of the output power.
rgds, Gyula
Hay Stefan:
Sorry for the delay. Power went out last night and again this morning (darn squirrels).
I originally used a one-ohm shunt. The current reading comes back at .002 total amps. I know that isn?t right. That?s why I used the 16 (8 each way) LEDs that are in parallel, connected in series with the 14 LEDs. I burnt out many LEDs experimenting. A great deal of time was spent using a load to verify the amperage, and voltage.
?The current inside the LEDs should really follow the voltage of the coils
and be not so noisy...?
To further confuse the issue, click on view, format screen, 4 waveforms overlapped. Look what happens with channel 1 and 2. As the voltage goes up the amps go down.
To add even more confusion, use Ohms law to calculate the moment-by-moment resistance. The resistance changes considerably.
Yet even more confusion comes from rocking the magnets by hand, to physically feel for resistance, there isn?t any.
My brother in law arrived in town a few months ago on vacation. He is an EE that designs and builds custom circuit boards for the Robotics industry. He said that he would show me the errors of my ways. The first day of testing, he determined that it must be the Windaq hardware. He spent a few days going over the schematics. He determined that the circuits were correct, so the errors must be from an incorrect setup. By the end of the second day of testing he walked away saying ?we must be making a mistake, we have to be making a mistake!? I just laughed!
So, this is why I straight out say ?I do not understand resistance.?
You are asking good questions. Unfortunately, I cant give good answers!
David Middleton
Hay Stefan:
Sorry for the delay. Power went out last night and again this morning (darn squirrels).
I originally used a one-ohm shunt. The current reading comes back at .002 total amps. I know that isn?t right. That?s why I used the 16 (8 each way) LEDs that are in parallel, connected in series with the 14 LEDs. I burnt out many LEDs experimenting. A great deal of time was spent using a load to verify the amperage, and voltage.
?The current inside the LEDs should really follow the voltage of the coils
and be not so noisy...?
To further confuse the issue, click on view, format screen, 4 waveforms overlapped. Look what happens with channel 1 and 2. As the voltage goes up the amps go down.
To add even more confusion, use Ohms law to calculate the moment-by-moment resistance. The resistance changes considerably.
Yet even more confusion comes from rocking the magnets by hand, to physically feel for resistance, there isn?t any.
My brother in law arrived in town a few months ago on vacation. He is an EE that designs and builds custom circuit boards for the Robotics industry. He said that he would show me the errors of my ways. The first day of testing, he determined that it must be the Windaq hardware. He spent a few days going over the schematics. He determined that the circuits were correct, so the errors must be from an incorrect setup. By the end of the second day of testing he walked away saying ?we must be making a mistake, we have to be making a mistake!? I just laughed!
So, this is why I straight out say ?I do not understand resistance.?
You are asking good questions. Unfortunately, I cant give good answers!
David Middleton
@Stefan
The basic question I would have is this. Regardless if the LEDS are connected to the gens or not (we know they are not), can a 1.2 volt dc battery light up so many LEDS, and if it could, for how long. If the device can run for longer then that theoretical time, then there has to be something here.
Actually, Plengo is doing something similar with many LEDS in the miniTPU thread.
@HG
When you turned the genmagnets by hand, was there a load connected? It's funny there was no resistance. When I hand turn any of my DC motors with a load on it, you can feel the drag (resistance) . Increase the load and you'll increase the drag
This tells me the design can be improved and that the magnets, even though they are rather far from the coils, the coils are still picking up enough energy to light the LEDS. Crazy.
It's a good thing Stefan and company are here to guide you through the OU aspect of your device. You're in good hands indeed.
So.........................did you figure out a name yet? lol
@All
HG's device is using 4 micro contacts with a swinging plate that activates two micro contacts per side. I am wondering, is there a way to replace the micro contacts with optical senors in order to eliminate the banging action and noise. Or could the banging mechanism that stops the magnet so abruptly before changing direction, then aid in the overall process towards OU.
Hay Group:
As part of my critical thinking on the subject, I would like to share one of my conclusions.
My test cell is a rechargeable 1.2 volt, 500mA AA cell. This equals .6 watts. Yes, the wattage can be higher, that's why I would let the apparatus run for ten to fifteen minutes before I would take any measurements.
The loads are as follows: The large coils load is 20 LEDs forward an 20 reverse. The operating voltage is 3 to 3.8 volts, and .025A. Using 3 volts and .015 amps as the low requirement, the wattage required is (20 LEDs x 3 volts) = 60 volts; the amps are .015, = .9 watts.
The center coil has 14 LEDs forward and reverse, at 3 volts each, the voltage is 42 at .015 amps = .21 watts.
The center coil also has 16 LEDs, 8 fordward and 8 reverse connected to each other in parallel. At 3 volts and .015 amps each; (8 x .015 = .12 amps) 3 volts X .12 amps = .36 watts. The total for the center coil is .21 watts plus .36 watts = .57 watts.
The small secondary unit is a mixture of red, white, blue and red LEDs totaling 36 volts. Using 30 volts at .010amps, = .3 watts.
.9 + .57 + .3 = 1.77 watts. A fresh AA cell is .6 watts. These calculations don't take into consideration the power needed to operate the apparatus
David Middleton
Wattsup!
I am not sure what you mean by the LEDs are not hooked up to the output coils. Of course they are. I have done a few experiments with just one, or two output coils, but there has always been a load attached. Almost all my experiments have all three coils operating with a load. The power Factor is the same using LEDs or a resistor as the load.
Absolutely the design can be improved. I have considered optical sensors, but I also have to consider that the magnets will be harder to stop and reverse, as you just mentioned.
Keep in mind that you can?t use the same principals, for an airplane, that you would for a space ship. Referring back to your example of apples and oranges looking similar but are quite different!
One other thing to keep in mind is that the magnetic field isn?t collapsing in the output coils, like it is in the driver coil. My experiments lead me to believe the magnetic field dissipates rather than collapsing in the output coils, due to the low operating Hz.
No, I haven?t came up with a name yet! I agree this is a great site!
David Middleton
Hi David,
how long can you run this whole circuit from your 1.2 Volts battery ?
You did say you did wind the output aircore coils with double wire,
which was in parallel ?
Can you please post a schematic, so we can see,
how you wired up your coils and your LEDs ?
So do you use the same method as in the Tesla flat coil ?
I enclose a great drawing from Rex Hebert here,
which shows the fanstastic more energy storage of these coils:
Quote from: wattsup on January 23, 2008, 04:40:41 PM
HG's device is using 4 micro contacts with a swinging plate that activates two micro contacts per side. I am wondering, is there a way to replace the micro contacts with optical senors in order to eliminate the banging action and noise. Or could the banging mechanism that stops the magnet so abruptly before changing direction, then aid in the overall process towards OU.
I have been trying to come up with ways to test the basic concepts of this idea with parts I already have .
If holes were drilled ( then tapped ) into the base just inside the edges of the middle set of magnets .
The a couple small magnets could be attached to a threaded plug or setscrew .
The magnet should have the same pole up as the bottom magnet has down so they will repel .
If I was to try to modify the setup in the videos I think I would start with 1/4 by 1/4 rare earth magnet .
The idea would be to have the magnets as small as possable without having the faces of the magnets hitting each other .
I am guessing that switching to magnets would speed up the system a little because it would add a litlle Springyness to the reciprocation
Rough adjustment should be pretty simple ....... observe the current movement limits hold the axle at its limit on that side and raise the magnet untill you can feel it start to push on the rotor magnet .
I am pretty sure that using magnets that are to big would tend to dampen the movement of the rotor ( the magnetic fields would start interacting to soon ........ and the rotor would slow down " gradually " rather than hitting the field of a smaller magnet and bouncing back
I am about 99 % sure that this would work
Just had an after thought .
It might be possable to put small coils under the other sets of magnets ...... ( adjusted just like the magnets I just described )
It seems to me that they would create a magnetic field as long as the magnets on the rotor are approching
Once the rotor stops .......the field collapsing will make a spike that should give the rotor a little boost .
Each coil could probably power a couple more leds
Adding a small cap might delay the spike for a fraction of a second so the rotor has more time to change direction
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am not sure about the switches .
If they are momentary contact they could probably be replaced with a few pieces of wire and some small magnets.
a short pieces of music wire ...... or wire for making springs would be attracted to a small magnet
The music wire would be one contact the magnet face the other .
The other end of the music wire would be attached to a much heavier wire ...... like 14 gage copper .
The heavy wire would allow you to bend it to achieve the right timing ..........the length of the music wire would tend to control the dwell time .
gary
Hi David,
as your LEDs are not on with the same current all the time,
surely for the power output measurements you haveto integrate
the voltage x current over time to see how much power exactly is
being put out.
Could you please post a few more videos of the driver coil
unit, so one could exactly see, how it is rocking back and forward and
where the magnets and coils are located there ?
From the 2 videos already posted I was not able to see it.
Could you please verify again what wire you used
to wire the output coils and about how many turns ?
What bifilar or double (parallel) wire was it ?
Many thanks.
Hi David and All,
I analysed the 4 Windaq waveforms now a bit more and I must say,
that indeed it looks like it is overrunity.
David is just using all the time not more than 200 milliWatts of average power input
into his magnet rocker from his 1.2 Volts battery.
The input current is mostly lower than 400 mA
and his battery voltage is not higher than 0.5 Volts at this load,
mostly lower...
His output load has around 15 Volts average voltage all the time added up over a cycle optically seen
and around 20 mA average current , which will give about 300 milliWatts output at
one coil output.
As he has 3 or 5 coils as I understand it, the output exceeds much more the input.
As the output current Windaq scope trace is very noisy due to the low
voltage at the 0.05 Ohm shunt, David should use a much higher Ohm shunt
to get into a better measurement voltage range to get out of the error
level of the measurement equipment.
But as it seems this is quite an achievement so far...
Regards, Stefan.
Hi David,
I have an idea, how to make the measurements more easy and
more obvious.
Please use after each coil a graetz rectifier bridge
and a 2000 uF / 100 Volts capacitor and then drive 10 to 20
LEDs in series with the output of this capacitor.
Then you will have almost DC voltage at this cap
so you can measure the output much better and have a constant
light output and not blinking.
Then use at least a 1 Ohm shunt in series with the LEDs, better
a 10 Ohm shunt. ( this will also save better your LEDs
from burning out...)
Use the Windaq hardware to measure again voltage at the
cap and voltage at the shunt.
Please also try to put
a 2000 to 10.000 uF cap parallel to the battery, so the voltage over there
remains more stable.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Hay Stefan:
That is a great drawing, and yes that?s how I spun the coils with an exception. I used two separate spools of wire, and spun them together (in parallel so to speak). The difference is that my coils are not flat, and they are far from being neat. When I was spinning them, I noticed that at times the wires would separate. There not even close to being as neat as depleted in the drawing. The connections are the same, meaning that one inside wire end was connected to the outside end of the other wire, just like in the drawing.
The two ends (one blue and one red) extending from the coil drawing are hooked to each end of a resistor or LEDs.
I haven?t done any timing of the devices run time in over a year, so I?ll do one tonight, and post the results tomorrow.
David
Hi David,
as your LEDs are not on with the same current all the time, surely for the power output measurements you have to integrate the voltage x current over time to see how much power exactly is being put out.
Stefan:
You are absolutely right. You can calculate that by the moment-by-moment readings. If you open the file, click, file, save as, click on option (5) spreadsheet, then you can open it in excel, and do the calculations. I think I sent you an excel attachment that shows how I did the math. An option is to click, view, statistics, then open a spreadsheet and paste. That gives a considerable amount of info.
?Could you please post a few more videos of the driver coil unit, so one could exactly see, how it is rocking back and forward any where the magnets and coils are located there ??
YES, I will post that tomorrow.
?Could you please verify again what wire you used to wire the output coils and about how many turns ? What bifilar or double (parallel) wire was it ??
I used two separate spools of 29-gauge single strand magnet wire. Temperature is a non-issue so the cheapest you can find is acceptable. As far as the number of turns on the output coils is concerned, the middle coil is approximately 3 #, the end coil is approximately 4#. I?ll do the math and get back to you on the # of turns.
David
Hay Gary:
That?s a great idea! I can?t think of any reason why it wouldn?t work.
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 23, 2008, 07:10:22 PM
Hay Stefan:
That is a great drawing, and yes that?s how I spun the coils with an exception. I used two separate spools of wire, and spun them together (in parallel so to speak).
Hi David.
Many thanks for this important information.
Maybe this is the key to your overunity results.
These coils then seem to be very special and it might be
the reason you don?t see any drag on the rotor,
when you have the series LEDs hooked across the coils.
Well, the best next test would be to use a graetz rectifier bridge
with a big cap behind it to drive all the LEDs in series,
so you have a constant brightness output and you can measure the output much
better this way.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
If somebody wants to check out the data yourself from
David,
here is a WinRAR archive file with the data David did sent me.
It contains the 4 Waveforms from the Windaq scope hardware
and an Excel sheet I could not view with my OpenOffice.org
software, as I don?t have Excel installed...
You need to download and install the Windaq waveform browser to see the Data from David:
http://www.dataq.com/support/downloads/newwwb.exe
Hay Stefan:
I am going to try your suggestions with the bridge and caps. It will probably be a week before I get to it. Being self employed, I don't have the luxury of a 8 hour day! But I will post a few more videos soon.
Okay David.
Many thanks and keep up your good work.
A few close up pictures would also be great from the magnet rocker,
so we can see, how you drive that.
Also it would be interesting, if rotating the output coil magnet shaft
from a real low power efficient DC motor would also
give overunity results as the magnets in the output coils
seem to have no drag on them...
So this would be probably also a nice test to try,
if you could use a simple motor to drive the magnet shaft
and see how much power you could extract from it...
Regards, Stefan.
@All
Four reed contacts placed above the drive magnets should be enough to cancel the use of the swing, maybe increase swing speed and hopefully run with much less banging. I made a quick diagram of what I mean.
Wattsup:
Another really good idea!
Hi David
ive made a crude and very small variation of your device and im just tinkering with different ideas at the moment, i only pulse power one way through the driver coil... i have the teeter paddel hit a small spring and this returns it nicely to trigger the switch again....so maybe some power is being saved here?, my output coils are single wire and not double like yours.
Also i have noticed something strange in wich i can speed the device up when i place a magnet near the 3rd output coil...the magnet has to be the correct way around otherwise it will stall the device, i can gain around 6% increase in voltage...bearing in mind my device is extremly small, could you try this and see if you get any result?...it only seems to work on the 3rd output coil and i dont know wether the extra speed the device runs at to generate extra voltage draws any extra power?.
just getting ready to scale up the device.
Chad.
Hay Chad:
That?s great! I will support anyone interested.
I just tried it and the speed did pick up noticeably. I didn?t notice any negative effects. I?m impressed! Great thinking.
I will try taking some measurement this weekend, and will let you know.
This is the kind of spinoff I was hoping for. There is a great bunch of real thinkers on this site. Don?t copy what I have, just use the basic principles. As a group, I know we can come up with the ultimate device.
Some of the ideas from Gary, Stefan, wattsup, and others are good ones. The fact that everyone shares his or her ideas is great.
David Middleton
Chad: I just tried it again, with a magnet on both sides about 10? away, WOW, I am impressed, and the LEDs did in fact shine brighter! Way to go! It?s hard to tell what the effect ultimately is but I?ll definitely let you know!
Great Job!
@David
well im glad your getting similar results to me with the magnets near the output coil!.
Im going to build a larger device using some ring magnets i have....i know these will
be harder to rock back and forth but if i have a return spring on the teeter paddle or
two springs either end then i could just pulse the input coil at the right moment and
With the shape of the magnets or if i offset them i should be able to create a energy
sparing pendulem effect!, or in time as the devices get big enough to do usefull work you
could probabley just base the device around a pendulem and just pulse the input coil every
2-3 oscilations or so....lol im getting ahead of myself now :D
I think you have come up with a great idea with this device and as you say with a collection
of great thinkers we can make leaps and bounds in the refining of your device.
I like the idea of reed style switches to trigger the input pulse...il have to implement these
in my scaled up version.
il keep you posted on my progress!.
Chad.
@HG
Regarding your 6 magnets as being 4" x 1" x 1/2" NdFeB grade N40,Neodymium magnets, I went on the magnet4less.com web site and cannot find this model. There are two with those dimensions but they say they are N42 and N50.
NB077
4" x 1" x 1/2" Thick Grade N42, Rare Earth Neodymium Block Magnet
pulling force: 110 lbs
Magnetized through thickness 1/2"
Price: $8.50 -- $10.40
NB077-1
4" x 1" x 1/2" Thick Grade N50, Rare Earth Neodymium Block Magnet
Nickel-Copper-Nickel 3-Layer Coated
Pull force: 126 lbs
Price: $12.99 -- $15.62
The N50 model does not mention the magnetized direction. The N42 model is probably the one you are using since it is magnetized through the 1/2" thickness..
Please advise if it is N42 and maybe correct your build spec on this thread. You can just go to that particular post and click on the "modify" icon.
I will order some magnets and while I wait for them to arrive, I will do some reed contact tests.
Added:
About your micro contacts, are these two or three terminal per micro contact. Do they have both NC and NO terminals or are they either NC or NO. I think with this information I can make a quick wiring diagram.
Hay Wattsup:
I had to special order the magnets I have. The site has changed considerably since I was last there. Mine are 79# pull. The 110# pull magnets should give even better results. The 110# pull magnets are getting into the scary realm! Some friends have stopped by, and of course they had to play with them despite my warnings, and would ultimately get them stuck together. The only way I could get them apart is to place one magnet on the edge of the bench and push the overhanging magnet down with my palm.
The cherry 51 micro switches have 3 terminals. That would be great if you did a schematic. I have no artistic skills whatsoever!
David
Hay Chad:
This test is down and dirty but gives an approxamation. I'll have to run the full test to see whats happening.
The first test is without the additional magnets, the second is with
UNITS Volt Volt Volt Volt
CHANNEL #-------- 1.0000 2.0000 3.0000 4.0000
# OF POINTS------ 1135.0000 1135.0000 1135.0000 1135.0000
MEAN-------------- 0.0386 0.8776 0.0018 44.5580
STD DEVIATION--- 0.0187 0.2613 0.0017 14.9230
MINIMUM---------- 0.0000 0.0222 0.0000 0.2969
MEDIAN------------ 0.0340 1.0049 0.0011 52.2340
MAXIMUM--------- 0.0914 1.9998 0.0084 59.6090
RMS----------------- 0.0429 0.9157 0.0025 46.9880
SUM----------------- 43.8080 996.1200 2.0773 50573.0000
SUM OF SQUARES- 2.0859 951.6400 0.0069 2506000.0000
VARIANCE--------- 0.0003 0.0683 0.0000 222.7000
SKEWNESS--------- 0.7396 -1.4611 1.2351 -1.5432
SLOPE--------------- 0.0001 0.0009 0.0000 0.0283
AREA---------------- 0.7301 16.6020 0.0346 842.8800
START POINT TBF- 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
END POINT TBF--- 18.9000 18.9000 18.9000 18.9000
FILE----------------- teeest.WDQ teeest.WDQ teeest.WDQ teeest.WDQ
--------------------- 0.8574 0.9157 0.0495 46.9880
--------------------- ------------ 0.7851 ------------ 2.3252 VA
--------------------- ------------ ------------ ------------ 2.9616 Power ratio
UNITS--------------- Volt Volt Volt Volt
CHANNEL #-------- 1.0000 2.0000 3.0000 4.0000
# OF POINTS------- 1135.0000 1135.0000 1135.0000 1135.0000
MEAN--------------- 0.0383 0.9189 0.0018 45.0850
STD DEVIATION--- 0.0187 0.2593 0.0017 13.8290
MINIMUM---------- 0.0000 0.0056 0.0000 0.5859
MEDIAN------------ 0.0355 1.0239 0.0011 51.3520
MAXIMUM--------- 0.0891 1.4739 0.0074 61.6020
RMS----------------- 0.0426 0.9547 0.0025 47.1570
SUM----------------- 43.4480 1042.9000 2.0992 51172.0000
SUM OF SQUARES- 2.0586 1034.5000 0.0071 2524000.0000
VARIANCE--------- 0.0003 0.0672 0.0000 191.2500
SKEWNESS--------- 0.4480 -1.2157 1.3377 -1.3593
SLOPE--------------- 0.0001 0.0001 0.0000 0.0263
AREA--------------- 0.7241 17.3820 0.0350 852.8700
START POINT TBF- 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
END POINT TBF--- 18.9000 18.9000 18.9000 18.9000
FILE----------------- tteeest.WDQ tteeest.WDQ tteeest.WDQ tteeest.WDQ
--------------------- 0.8518 0.9547 0.0500 47.1570
--------------------- ------------ 0.8132 ------------ 2.3585 VA
--------------------- ----------- ------------ ------------ 2.9004 Power ratio
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 24, 2008, 03:18:57 PMHay Chad:
This test is down and dirty but gives an approximation. I'll have to run the full test to see whats happening.
Above information imported/exported via Excel.
The first PRO
2 test is without magnets, the second is with magnets:
- Schpankme
@guys
Here's a nifty little program to calculate wire gauges, lengths, weights and metric to english conversions.
For the drive coil, since it is the one being energized and since it is only using one side of the coil field being alternatively pulsed, why not put another magnet on the other side of the coil to capitalize on the other polarity, since right now, it is being wasted.
You could probably run two shafts with one drive coil. I will look into this when I get my magnets.
Hay Chad:
I did a few more tests with your secondary magnet idea. The previous result I posted was with a used 1.5-volt cell. This time I used an almost depleted cell. I ran the first test without the secondary magnet. The second test with the magnet. On the second test with the magnet, the input power went up.
What happened was, because the axle speed was accelerated, the driver coil produced its own electricity which added to the overall power input readings. I could subtract the first test input readings from the second to get an answer. What I don?t know is what is happening to the increased power.
What I need to do is hook up to the cell itself and see if the increased input power is going into the cell. I dislike guessing so I won?t! I will keep you posted.
David
Hay Wattsup:
Yet another idea worthy of investigating!
David
Hi David,
will you soon have the new videos or pictures ready ?
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Hay Stefan:
I just posted 2 photos at ou-builders. Can't seem to do it here. As soon as you tube is back up I will upload another video.
If anyone has a magnet and coil setup and LEDs as the load, would you try adding a bulb or some other resistive load in series and let me know what happens.
Hi David
if the secondary magnets caused the axle to increase speed wich inturn increased the power in the input coil....how does adding secondary magnets force the axle to increase speed?.
I noticed that the magnets had to be placed at around 45 degrees in relation to the main output coil magents to be effective the most, if not the device would stall, so could the secondary magnets be providing lift wich reduces friction by reducing the effects of gravity..or may there be a more complex reason?.
Hi David,
LEDs can be considered as nonlinear resistors (more precisely as nonlinear impedances but their self capacitance and inductance surely can be neglected at the low frequencies of 2-10Hz your setup operates at).
The strange thing when you use LEDs in series as a load is that current can only flow through them when your induced voltage becomes higher than the summed up forward voltages of each LED. Under this voltage level there is practically no current, not even in the forward direction and above this level current suddenly starts flowing. LEDs have a dynamic resistance above their forward voltage area which can be max a few Ohms (1-4 Ohms, almost a short circuit for a voltage source) so if there is no any other practical series resistance in the circuit (like the coil DC resistance or a bulb etc), the current can be very high and damaging for the diodes if the voltage difference is high between the induced and the summed up forward voltages.
I uploaded here an edited version of Stefan picture logger03.gif on your earlier four channel voltage measurements.
I drew another line three under the line four how I think the shape of the current (or the voltage drop across a resistor) will more or less look like. I took an example of 6 LEDs in series, to correspond to your earlier 25.805V peak output voltage (where the cursor is). If we suppose a 3.1V forward voltage for each diode, then current will be able to flow only if the induced voltage gets above this 6*3.1=18.6V.
I hope my drawing in the picture is understandable. I miss this shorter-than-half-wave pulse shape from your original measurements in your lines three and I think you can produce it when using a 5 Ohm resistor (or higher) instead of the 0.05 Ohm.
Now I think it is more understandable how tricky situation is created when we use LEDs (i.e. nonlinear resistors) as loads for an AC generator (but the dynamic resistance holds true at DC too, of course) and wonder why Ohm's law is strange in their case. This also explains I think why you feel no or only a little drag by your hand when you check induction with LED loads, for load current can only flow when the induced voltage exceeds the summed up forward voltages.
David, I do not imply you have no higher output power than input, all I mean here is I disagree with your output current waveform received on your line three (it is mainly buried in noise and we do not see voltage (hence current) values you are to multiply to get the output power.
I invite Stefan or any other member here to comment these things.
rgds, Gyula
Hay Chad:
The configuration we are using is a N-S. I noticed that the noise level went down, and the primary magnets didn?t rock back and forth as far. I believe that the secondary magnet arrangement attracts the primary magnet. Its that simple!
Hay Gyulasun:
I believe that that waveform you are referring to is with a 100k ohm resistor. The device works the same with LEDs or a resistor, Or using both at the same time. I understand what you are saying about the loading. The part that confuses me is that anything else placed in series has no effect.
Your input is valuable. If you like I'll send another attachment using just LEDs, and I'll put 1.5 volts to it so the readings are higher. I'll use a cap on the output so the wave form is a little cleaner.
I really appreciate your input!
David
Hay Gyula:
I have restudied the instantaneous numbers in the T1 and T2 time frame and there is current. If you have the waveform browser, in the save as section, there are other formats to choose from, other than Excel.
I appreciate your input.
David
Here are the next 2 pics David posted
at ou-builders.
To me it is not yet clear how these
rocker electromagnets work and
where there is any magnet at this unit ?
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 27, 2008, 10:31:29 PM
Here are the next 2 pics David posted
at ou-builders.
To me it is not yet clear how these
rocker electromagnets work and
where there is any magnet at this unit ?
Regards, Stefan.
Looks to me like these are just more views of the teeter board and switches ....... there is a similar view on reply 27
gary
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 27, 2008, 08:25:15 PM
Hay Gyulasun:
I believe that that waveform you are referring to is with a 100k ohm resistor. The device works the same with LEDs or a resistor, Or using both at the same time. I understand what you are saying about the loading. The part that confuses me is that anything else placed in series has no effect.
Your input is valuable. If you like I'll send another attachment using just LEDs, and I'll put 1.5 volts to it so the readings are higher. I'll use a cap on the output so the wave form is a little cleaner.
I really appreciate your input!
David
Hi David,
I changed your sentence green above and I ask that you mean you connect a bulb for instance in series with the LEDs and find it has no effect? You would expect the bulb to flash for a moment when the LEDs do? Is it what confuses you?
If yes, then let's take an example: you have, say, 60V peak output voltage induced in your coil and you use 18 LEDs in series. If the LEDs have 3V forward voltage drop each, then it is 3*18=54V from which voltage level the current starts flowing already but you have a 6V extra (54+6=60V) and if you would have a 6V bulb and this bulb would give out light at 10-15mA current@6V, then it would light/flash up a little, ok? If it is a bulb designed with higher current need, say, 200-300mA or higher, then it will probably remain an unvisible light source in your setup. Why? Because although the LEDs dynamic resistance will still dictate the current, their very steep voltage limiting characteristics at the 54V value will try to consume the 6V difference and the bulb would merely serve as a low ohmic resistor, with little (i.e. not enough) voltage drop on it for lighting it up. LEDs are excellent voltage stabilizers/
voltage limiters just like Zener diodes!
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 27, 2008, 10:12:28 PM
Hay Gyula:
I have restudied the instantaneous numbers in the T1 and T2 time frame and there is current. If you have the waveform browser, in the save as section, there are other formats to choose from, other than Excel.
I appreciate your input.
David
I also greencoloured your sentence above and ask how much current you mean and what was your output load exactly when you found current during T1 and T2? (by the way did not you mean T3 instead of T2?) Also, what output voltage level did you have?
Regards
Gyula
Hay Stefan:
Now I understand your question.
There is only one electromagnet, and that?s the driver coil. The switches, just reverse the power going into the driver coil. When power goes into the driver coil, the permanent respond by rotating forward. In the forward movement, the front two switches are closed and the back two switches are opened. When the front two switches are closed, the power is reversed, causing the permanent magnets to reverse.
David
Hay Gyula:
I am not doing a good job of explaining what is happening, sorry.
When a load is increased, resistance should increase. The device should slow down. If I put a couple of mini lamps (or more) in series with the LEDs, they don?t light up, and the LEDs show no difference in intensity, and there is no slow down of the device. If I put one or more 10-ohm resistors in series there is no difference in the LEDs or the devices speed. I have even used three small 1.5-3 volt motors in series, and there is no slowdown in the device and the LEDs continue to blink away!
I would at least expect one-half cycle to show signs of resistance and slow down, but it doesn?t.
I could understand that the LEDs used up the amperage, when the power was going through the LEDs first, meaning that anything else in the circuit would be just a return path to complete the circuit. However, I can?t explain when the power goes through the resistive load first, why that doesn?t make any difference. Does this explain my dilemma any better?
David
Hay Gyula:
The second part of your post: The answer can be found in the moment-by-moment instantaneous readings. This is why I went with the data recorder, so I can tell what is happening at each moment in time.
@HG
I think the reason why the rotor does not slow down when you increase the load has to do with the distance between the magnets and the coil. If you put something under the gen coils to raise them higher so the magnet is swinging closer inside the coil center, you should increase the amount of slowdown when increasing the load.
Right now, the coil is catching the ambient mag field of the magnet, but the coils internal resistance to current flow (BEMF or CEMF)) is not enough to reach the magnets present location. This is why motor generator rotors are so close to the stator. Surmounting that close drag is what produces serious juice.
There is so much room for optimizing this design from all angles.
Hay Wattsup:
I agree. I posted another video on you tube, about the switch. I did not understand Stefans question about an additional electromagnet in the switch assembly.
David
Hi David,
please show the driver unit in detail with macro photos.
How do the electromagnets lift up and down the wood ramp
and the axis ?
Is there anywhere a magnet involved to do this ?
Many thanks.
Looking for a new video from you that clears this up.
Many thanks.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 28, 2008, 10:52:29 AM
Hay Gyula:
I am not doing a good job of explaining what is happening, sorry.
When a load is increased, resistance should increase. The device should slow down. If I put a couple of mini lamps (or more) in series with the LEDs, they don?t light up, and the LEDs show no difference in intensity, and there is no slow down of the device. If I put one or more 10-ohm resistors in series there is no difference in the LEDs or the devices speed. I have even used three small 1.5-3 volt motors in series, and there is no slowdown in the device and the LEDs continue to blink away!
I would at least expect one-half cycle to show signs of resistance and slow down, but it doesn?t.
I could understand that the LEDs used up the amperage, when the power was going through the LEDs first, meaning that anything else in the circuit would be just a return path to complete the circuit. However, I can?t explain when the power goes through the resistive load first, why that doesn?t make any difference. Does this explain my dilemma any better?
David
Hi David,
I decided to draw a rough schematics how I think you may have connected your LEDs as the load, ok? Because without a diagram it is difficult to speak about the happenings and know if we think of the same setup.
In Fig. 1 I indicated the positive half wave voltage only, and the current in red too. One and the same current flows through the resistor and the LED line with the forward direction to this positive voltage, ok?
In Fig. 2 I indicated the negative half wave voltage only, and the current in blue, too. This current must be of the same amplitude in theory than that in the positive period but if the up/down distances differ a little in the see-saw or the LEDs are a bit different, then the time (and the amplitude) may also differ a little.
So the answer to your dilemma is, that it is all the same which component the current goes through first, a resistor or a LED line, it does not matter. What counts with respect to how big current is able to flow is that how bigger the induced voltage than the summed LEDs forwards voltages. The bigger the induced voltage, the bigger the current, but the treshold voltage from which this counts is the summed up LEDs forward voltages, always, whenever you use LEDs as loads. And the difference is 5-10Volts I guess and NOT the full 40-60V coil output!
And if you use series 10 or 100 Ohms as an addition to the LEDs load, then the voltage drop is able to appear across them only at times whenever the induced voltage is higher than the LEDs treshold voltage (because under the treshold voltage there cannot flow any current in the diagram I show) and because it is not the full coil voltage which drives the current through it but only the difference, hence this current can drop a smaller drop across those low value resistors. And the result is you do not sense this indeed small effect.
If you happen to use a different schematics at your output as a load, please describe it or better, draw it.
rgds
Gyula
Hay Stefan:
I posted a new video on you tube. I hope it shows what you are looking for. I am looking at Guyla's schematic and will try to make one up for you.
Hay Gyula: I need a little time to digest your schematics!
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 28, 2008, 05:35:03 PM
Hi David,
please show the driver unit in detail with macro photos.
How do the electromagnets lift up and down the wood ramp
and the axis ?
Is there anywhere a magnet involved to do this ?
Many thanks.
Looking for a new video from you that clears this up.
Many thanks.
Hi Stefan,
So the electromagnet is his first copper color coil (just next to left of the green color coils) in the middle of which the long shaft with all the magnets also going through and is able to make the see-saw movements and this copper color (air core) coil is controlled by the four microswitches. And the microswitches are controlled by the see-saw movement of the arm #4 fixed to the left end of the long shaft and this arm is placed
mechanically above another see-saw arm (#14) that actually operates the 4 micro switches. No extra magnets near or around the switches are used.
Gyula
Hay Gyula:
Your schematics are accurate. I just posted a waveform at ou_builders. I overlapped the input and output waves.
Notice how on the top line (input) as the voltage goes up the amps go down. Amps don?t follow the voltage.
David
Your discription of the switch operation is also correct!
Hi David,
When you find some time and you happen to have a digital multimeter (an analog meter also will do of course) with resistance measurement range, would you check the DC resistance of your input (copper color) and output green color) coils? I am curious... :D In my schematics I indicated a 50 Ohm resistance in series with the LEDs, its value is symbolic of course, and can include one of the green coils resistance of course.
Also, would you tell us what loads did you use for getting those waveforms you just uploaded at ou_builders?
Thanks. Please take your time, no need for a hurry.
Gyula
Hi David,
many thanks for the new video.
But one can still not clearly see
how this see-saw rocker -electromagnet-magnet
setup works.
Where is the magnet exactly located that
pushes the see-saw up and down from the
electromagnets ?
Maybe you can show it with a macro-shoot
video ?
Many thanks.
P.S: How about just spinnging the axis with a small DC motor ?
Does this need more input power ?
Maybe you can also post the DC resistance of your electromagnets
and about how many turns of wire do they have or what kind
of brand this is and what kind of magnet sits nearby to push
the see-saw up and down ?
Many thanks.
Hay Gyula:
I posted two more waveforms at ou_builders this time with the loads!
Using an analog multi meter:
The ohm readings on the driver coil (copper colored) doesn?t move off of 0.
The middle (green) coil is about 850 ohms.
The large end coil is about 1K ohms (the waveforms were done with this one.)
On the secondary unit, the coil shows about 850 ohms.
David
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 29, 2008, 07:29:27 PM
But one can still not clearly see
how this see-saw rocker -electromagnet-magnet
setup works.
Where is the magnet exactly located that
pushes the see-saw up and down from the
electromagnets ?
Stephen
I think I can answer this
I had to watch a couple of times to catch it myself.
The first part of the 3rd video David is moving the teeter board showing the switches working
You can see what looks kind of like a propeller that moves when he moves the teeter board.
That propeller is connected to the main axle ......the axle with the magnets connected to it.
After David finishes showing the teeter board switching you can see him turning the propeller horizontal .......then the camera moves and you can then hear the device start running .
What is hard to see when the device is shown running is that the propeller is on top of the teeter board .
It is an elegantly simple way to be able to test them separately but connect them quickly and easly
gary
It would be productive to visualize what is happening with the idea of "an imbalance of power". If there were more facts presented I'd be willing to simulate it and I wouldn't mind if anyone would beat me to it. I've thought for a long time the concept of "an imbalance of power" was very powerful.
Bessler007
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 29, 2008, 07:29:27 PM
Hi David,
many thanks for the new video.
But one can still not clearly see
how this see-saw rocker -electromagnet-magnet
setup works.
Where is the magnet exactly located that
pushes the see-saw up and down from the
electromagnets ?
Maybe you can show it with a macro-shoot
video ?
Many thanks.
P.S: How about just spinnging the axis with a small DC motor ?
Does this need more input power ?
Maybe you can also post the DC resistance of your electromagnets
and about how many turns of wire do they have or what kind
of brand this is and what kind of magnet sits nearby to push
the see-saw up and down ?
Many thanks.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 29, 2008, 09:27:48 PM
Hay Gyula:
I posted two more waveforms at ou_builders this time with the loads!
Using an analog multi meter:
The ohm readings on the driver coil (copper colored) doesn?t move off of 0.
The middle (green) coil is about 850 ohms.
The large end coil is about 1K ohms (the waveforms were done with this one.)
On the secondary unit, the coil shows about 850 ohms.
David
Hi David,
Thank you for the details. Isn't the near zero driver coil resistance suspicious for you? A few (2-4 or so) Ohms of resistance should be there, right? You can estimate it quite well by using the tablets in this link:
http://cs.nju.edu.cn/yangxc/dcc_teach/wire-resistance.html or from this link:
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
If you find the value by some calculation from the tablets and it is indeed near zero (0.2-1 Ohm or so), then there is no short circuit in your driver coil.... ;)
By the way, have you tested one of your green coils in the place of the driver coil? (for instance a green one whose shape and sizes approaches the best to the copper color coil) This way the input power need would be much less than it is now with the very low (near zero) resistance copper color driver coil. I understand that the coil resistance of a near ideal electromagnet is the lower the better (to minimize copper loss) but if you benefit from the much lower input power need by using much more number of turns than you have now, even at a cost of wasting more power in wires resistance, then it is worth trying to use the higher number of turns to get similar attracting forces. Because you mentioned you get more favorable results when your battery is getting into the discharged state: this means your driver coil would still execute its see-saw task with 0.2-0.5V input DC voltage. Putting this otherwise: your present driver coil is a bit overdriven, I think. Your thoughts?
Thanks, Gyula
Hay Stefan:
I just posted another you tube video.
The copper colored (15 gauge) air coil is the (electromagnet)driver coil (far left #15). There are only three sets (of 2 each) magnets in total (#11). One set of magnets are located above the driver coil, attached to the axle. If you were to take a battery and touch the driver coils two ends, this makes the driver coil an electromagnet, and the permanent magnets would respond by turning (about 90 degrees). If you turn the battery around and touch the driver coil ends (terminals) with the battery, the magnets would swing the opposite way. This in turn makes the teeter engaging lever #4 rock back and forth because; it is attached to the same axle as the permanent magnets.
I just posted an early version of this device. There are two switches and two batteries. I originally used two switches and one battery with a diode, but the diode had negative effects. Notice how the permanent magnets don?t rock back and forth as much. It?s almost a vibration. There is a vast number of improvements in these devices!
The switching means on both follow the same principals.
A DC motor isn?t as efficient as the pulsed electromagnetic setup.
David
Why is over-unity possible? All energy comes from light,Eletromagnetism(light) when it strikes mattter(protons,nuetrons) seperates into electron-positron pairs,E-P pairs when they collide produce Quarks; it takes 3 quarks to produce(P, N), matter combines and forms planets and stars, producing light,The circle is complete, not closed but open,infinte. The problem with this is the higher the over-unity the more light is needed, a mini-black hole.Stealing fire from the sun or fire from heaven, sound familiar. The solution then is create your own light source.You can check the science yourself, the truth is out there.Ezekiel wheels was the design for my machine, but infinity might have some problem's,seeing is believing.
Hay Gyula:
I am using an old cheapie MM so I am sure you are right on the driver coil 2-4 ohms. My good one is being recalibrated. That?s why I said ?approximately? on the resistance. I have tried larger driver coils (more wraps) and the results are not good. I have also tried the green coils and the results are not good. I am still trying to explain to Stefan how the switches and driver coil work together. That new video has a cleaner view of the interaction of the switches and pulsed driver coil electromagnet. The newest video shows a faster and less of a rotation of the permanent magnets (this is the secondary device shown in the preceding videos. I am going to check out your links, thanks.
David
Speaking of overdriving, When the device is in operation, I grab the axle at the right end with my finger and thumb and can't stop the rocking motion. Just thought I would throw that in!
Quote from: R_weng777 on January 30, 2008, 11:12:08 AM
Why is over-unity possible? All energy comes from light,Eletromagnetism(light) when it strikes mattter(protons,nuetrons) seperates into electron-positron pairs,E-P pairs when they collide produce Quarks; it takes 3 quarks to produce(P, N), matter combines and forms planets and stars, producing light,The circle is complete, not closed but open,infinte. The problem with this is the higher the over-unity the more light is needed, a mini-black hole.Stealing fire from the sun or fire from heaven, sound familiar. The solution then is create your own light source.You can check the science yourself, the truth is out there.Ezekiel wheels was the design for my machine, but infinity might have some problem's,seeing is believing.
Hay R_weng777:
That is an interesting concept. I cannot comment on any of those theories they are beyond my humble comprehension.
David
David
I have been thinking of the reciporcation of your device .
In general reciprocation in any machanical device wastes alot of energy .
Sense you have found that reciprocating is better then rotating in this cae maybe you can use reciprocation to your advantage.
It looks to me like you are applying full power the entire direction of travel both directions.
If you used another set of switches and cut off the power somewhere between the center of the stroke and the last 1/4 of the stroke ....... you would be saving a pretty big chunk of your input energy .
OR .......if your switches are double pole ...... you might be able to use a capacitor . and switch the capacitor back and forth between the battery and the coil
anyway ........it is something to think about .
gary
Hay Gary:
Check out the new video at you tube. It works a little different, due to the switches.
David
Hi David,
where is exactly the magnet under the wooden #18 bar ?
Could you shoot a few macro shot pics, maybe just 1 inch away from it,
so we can exactly see from underneath, where the magnet is located and how
the electromagnets look alike and how they push the magnet away and lifting the
teeter-totter #18 wooden bar?
Many thanks.
Hay Stefan:
There is not any magnets, nor electromagnet, under the teeter board (#18), just the micro switch levers. The teeter engaging lever (#4) is what moves the teeterboard (#18). The only electromagnet is the driver coil (#15). The teeter board (#18) is hit by the teeter engaging board (#4). When power is applied to the coil (#15) that, moves the permanent magnets that are over the driver coil (#15). The magnets (#11) and teeter engaging board (#4) are fastened to the same axle (#3). When the magnets (#11) moves the axle (#3) moves, which moves (#4). The new video that I just posted (the forth one) shows a smaller version. In the new video, there is no teeterboard (#18), just a switch engaging lever (#4) so it is easier to see.
If this doesn?t help, I will post another video and talk you through the procedure!
David
Hay Gyula, Wattsup:
I need some help explaining the switches to stefan. Got any Ideas?
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 30, 2008, 05:24:14 PM
Hay Gary:
Check out the new video at you tube. It works a little different, due to the switches.
David
David
I did check out the new video
That is part of the reason I brought up the idea of reciprecation again
It is quite a bit faster ..... I have spent years trying to understand how mechanical devices work . I can't look at something moving back and forth as fast as your device is and not think about the energy that is used each time it changes direction.
gary
Hay Gary:
I am just the opposite. I can see something mechanical and understand the operation. Mechanics is basically understanding leverage. I feel about circuits, how you feel about mechanics! That is what makes this a great site. The diversity of everyone here!
David
Quote from: hartiberlin on January 30, 2008, 06:09:47 PM
Hi David,
where is exactly the magnet under the wooden #18 bar ?
Could you shoot a few macro shot pics, maybe just 1 inch away from it,
so we can exactly see from underneath, where the magnet is located and how
the electromagnets look alike and how they push the magnet away and lifting the
teeter-totter #18 wooden bar?
Many thanks.
Hi Stefan,
I have a lot of respect for your opinions after seeing many of your post, but I just don't understand what magnets that you are seeing under the teeter board. I only see the switches, please clue me in.
Thanks,
LarryC
Hi Larry and David,
I just wondered why the axis with the 3 big magnets turned,
when David pushed the teeter-totter board #18 up and down by his hand only ?
So it seems there are only magnets inside these electromagnet units.
David can you specify these electromagnet units ?
Where are they from and what company does produce them ?
Maybe if you have a spare one,
open one up and show us in a video what parts
they contain.
What is the electrical DC ohmical resistance of their coil ?
What size does the coil wire have in them ?
What kind of micro switch is in them ?
I guess the electromagnet coil DC resistance is
under 1 Ohm and it draws a lot of current in this pulse
normally,but as it is activated only for a short moment and
the inductance of these coils is pretty high also with all
the long connection cables to it, you can also see on the datarecorder,
that the current is in the peak aplitudes still under 1 amperes and only for
a few milliseconds.
So averaging it out over the whole cycle is lower than 200 milliAmps,
but I hope the shunt is not too low with its 0.05 Ohm as the datarecorder
shows the input amps with much noise so the voltage at the shunt is too
low for the datarecorder input voltage range and thus it could be
already in the high error range...
So a better matching of the shunt voltage and input voltage range of the
datarecorder is needed or a better preamp for the datarecorder
to measure voltages in the millivolt range without noise.
Anyway, if David would try to use a 120 Volts to 12 Volts transformer
and would power this by his green big coil, so he would transform
his high output voltage back to lower voltage and high amperes,
he could with a graetz brige rectifier and a big cap behind
it already maybe selfrun this unit, if the cap can hold up enough
energy to power the 2 driver electromagnets.
This would be the ultimate test to see, if a selfrunner could be done
this way and if the input current into the electromagnets is really this low,
so that a transformer output circuit could supply it and selfrun the whole unit.
Regards, Stefan.
@AHHHHHHH
Here is a diagram of how I see it work. Please correct me if needed.
Here is a spec on the micro contact.
Rated 6A and 250 VAC (1500 WATTEROUNIES)
Electrical life at rated load - Minimum 6,000 iterations.
These contacts will last and last and last.
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/e51.htm
The four micro contacts each have a LONG THIN METAL LEVER (Mechanical). No magnet needed.
So one side of the battery goes to two micro contacts, the other side of the battery goes to the other two micro contacts. Just flip the wires so each side is the reverse. All contacts are NO. That is to say when the teeter is up, the two micro contacts are NO hence open.
The micro contacts levers on the down side of the teeter are pushed downwards, so if they are also wired NO, then these two are closed in one polarity. When this side rises, it will open, the other side will close in the other polarity.
@HG, when you get a device name, let us know and I'll change it on the diagram.
Hay Stefan:
The driver coil (#15) is the electromagnet. All it is, is a single strand of 15 gauge wire, wrapped in a coil. If you have a coil of wire hanging around, put a permanent magnet inside it, touch a battery to the two coil ends, and the magnet will move. Wattsup schematic is exactly right. There are no magnets or electromagnet in the switch assembly! In the video you reference, I moved the teeterboard with my fingers to show the operation of the teeterboard in relation to the movement of the engaging lever (#4).
Wattsup's schematic shows all there is. Thanks Wattsup. It looks like you might be the first to replicate this device. If that?s so, I?ll let you give the device a name!
David
A transformer does not work well for the input. To much humming, and the secondary unit doesn't work right.
Quote from: wattsup on January 30, 2008, 09:06:05 PM
@AHHHHHHH
Here is a diagram of how I see it work. Please correct me if needed.
Here is a spec on the micro contact.
Rated 6A and 250 VAC (1500 WATTEROUNIES)
Electrical life at rated load - Minimum 6,000 iterations.
These contacts will last and last and last.
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/switches/miniature/e51.htm
The four micro contacts each have a LONG THIN METAL LEVER (Mechanical). No magnet needed.
So one side of the battery goes to two micro contacts, the other side of the battery goes to the other two micro contacts. Just flip the wires so each side is the reverse. All contacts are NO. That is to say when the teeter is up, the two micro contacts are NO hence open.
The micro contacts levers on the down side of the teeter are pushed downwards, so if they are also wired NO, then these two are closed in one polarity. When this side rises, it will open, the other side will close in the other polarity.
@HG, when you get a device name, let us know and I'll change it on the diagram.
Thanks, that's all I can see too Wattsup.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 30, 2008, 09:37:21 PM
Hay Stefan:
The driver coil (#15) is the electromagnet. All it is, is a single strand of 15 gauge wire, wrapped in a coil. If you have a coil of wire hanging around, put a permanent magnet inside it, touch a battery to the two coil ends, and the magnet will move. Wattsup schematic is exactly right. There are no magnets or electromagnet in the switch assembly! In the video you reference, I moved the teeterboard with my fingers to show the operation of the teeterboard in relation to the movement of the engaging lever (#4).
Wattsup's schematic shows all there is. Thanks Wattsup. It looks like you might be the first to replicate this device. If that?s so, I?ll let you give the device a name!
David
A transformer does not work well for the input. To much humming, and the secondary unit doesn't work right.
Hi David,
I do not think Stefan meant the transformer for the input in the sense you mentioned: I think he suggests you connect the primary side of a normal 120V/12V mains transformer to the output of your green coil and the secondary side of this transformer would feed a full wave rectifier + puffer capacitor, so the DC power gained this way would replace your 1.2V battery, you simply would remove the battery after hooking up the circuit... To avoid a runaway situation, some ten Ohms of series resistor (in 20-200 Ohm range) is advisable to insert to reduce deliberately the power coming from the puffer capacitor. If your device stops after hooking up and removing the battery, you can reduce the series resistor gradually or even short-circuit it and see whether your device continue running in this looped back connection. A bulb rated of a few watts would be better instead of the resistor though.
Because your output peak voltage is in the range of 40-60V, the output voltage at the secondary of the transformer will be around 4-6V peak, so after the diode bridge rectification the puffer capacitor will have an unloaded 6-9V DC output: of course when your driver coil is connected to this through the switches, the DC voltage will be significantly reduced in the capacitor and an average stored voltage will remain in it, once it has a chance to recharge from the transformer.
Such transformers are found in normal plugin power supplies, I think you call them
wall transformers, you may find them at Walmart etc in the 12W-20W power range, usually these are AC/DC adapters, (NOT the switching types!), maybe with only one diode + a puffer electrolytic capacitor on their secondary side. There may be variable output types where the secondary coil has several series windings and with a slide switch you can choose 3V, 6V, 9V and 12V DC output, such would be better for the looping... but in the lack of such adapter, with one output voltage value only, the series resistor or rather a bulb mentioned above surely helps.
Here are links on the kind of adapters I think of: http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCTX-980/790/9_VDC_800_MA_WALL_TRANSFORMER_.html or http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCTX-4175/790/7.5_VDC_TO_9_VDC_WALL_TRANSFORMER_.html
You may choose a mains transformer only like this:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/TX-121/790/12.6_V.C.T._"#64;_1_AMP_POWER_TRANSFORMER_.html (http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/TX-121/790/12.6_V.C.T._"#64;_1_AMP_POWER_TRANSFORMER_.html)
Of course you may choose not to do such looping with your device... If you do, I can make a schematics on it for you to clear everything up.
Thanks, Gyula
Hay Gyula:
Sure, I will try this suggestion. My point with Mr. Krieg is his unreasonable expectations, and name calling bully attitude! If your schematics are drawn out like Wattsup?s, I shouldn?t have to many questions. I haven?t done any tinkering in a long time, and am looking forward to having ?fun?!
Thanks for your assistance.
David
Quote from: gyulasun on January 31, 2008, 06:55:42 AM
Hi David,
I do not think Stefan meant the transformer for the input in the sense you mentioned: I think he suggests you connect the primary side of a normal 120V/12V mains transformer to the output of your green coil and the secondary side of this transformer would feed a full wave rectifier + puffer capacitor, so the DC power gained this way would replace your 1.2V battery, you simply would remove the battery after hooking up the circuit... To avoid a runaway situation, some ten Ohms of series resistor (in 20-200 Ohm range) is advisable to insert to reduce deliberately the power coming from the puffer capacitor. If your device stops after hooking up and removing the battery, you can reduce the series resistor gradually or even short-circuit it and see whether your device continue running in this looped back connection. A bulb rated of a few watts would be better instead of the resistor though.
Because your output peak voltage is in the range of 40-60V, the output voltage at the secondary of the transformer will be around 4-6V peak, so after the diode bridge rectification the puffer capacitor will have an unloaded 6-9V DC output: of course when your driver coil is connected to this through the switches, the DC voltage will be significantly reduced in the capacitor and an average stored voltage will remain in it, once it has a chance to recharge from the transformer.
Such transformers are found in normal plugin power supplies, I think you call them wall transformers, you may find them at Walmart etc in the 12W-20W power range, usually these are AC/DC adapters, (NOT the switching types!), maybe with only one diode + a puffer electrolytic capacitor on their secondary side. There may be variable output types where the secondary coil has several series windings and with a slide switch you can choose 3V, 6V, 9V and 12V DC output, such would be better for the looping... but in the lack of such adapter, with one output voltage value only, the series resistor or rather a bulb mentioned above surely helps.
Here are links on the kind of adapters I think of: http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCTX-980/790/9_VDC_800_MA_WALL_TRANSFORMER_.html or http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/DCTX-4175/790/7.5_VDC_TO_9_VDC_WALL_TRANSFORMER_.html
You may choose a mains transformer only like this:
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/TX-121/790/12.6_V.C.T._"#64;_1_AMP_POWER_TRANSFORMER_.html (http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/TX-121/790/12.6_V.C.T._"#64;_1_AMP_POWER_TRANSFORMER_.html)
Of course you may choose not to do such looping with your device... If you do, I can make a schematics on it for you to clear everything up.
Thanks, Gyula
Hi Gyula,
yes, I exactly meant it like this.
With this addon David should be able already to selfrun his unit.
Many thanks for pointing it out in detail.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 30, 2008, 09:37:21 PM
Hay Stefan:
The driver coil (#15) is the electromagnet. All it is, is a single strand of 15 gauge wire, wrapped in a coil. If you have a coil of wire hanging around, put a permanent magnet inside it, touch a battery to the two coil ends, and the magnet will move. Wattsup schematic is exactly right.
Hi David,
I edited the wiring diagram from Wattsup and here it is enclosed.
Where do we exactly find the coil #15 and the drivemagnet in your pictures
and your videos ?
Is it below the switch 12-B , so not visible in the pics and videos ?
@Stefan
You can see the coil in the pictures one page 2. The only thing under that coil is a cork type material that is required to inhibit and movement of the energized coil when the magnet swings inside, otherwise the coil would slide towards the magnet. There is nothing else. I am confused as to why there is so much confusion regarding such a non-confusing device. lol
@HG
I don't know if I will be the first one but it is in the works for February. I still want to do a few tests on this line of thinking using a standard DC motor connected to another dc motor and make the first one swing. These all I already have on hand to do. I'll keep you posted though. I am sure some others are making this now. The great thing about the idea of reversing directions on the dc motor is that you can play with some caps to catch any flyback. You can do it also on your system but this would require some playing around.
Quote from: wattsup on January 31, 2008, 11:00:10 AM
@Stefan
You can see the coil in the pictures on page 2. The only thing under that coil is a cork type material that is required to inhibit and movement of the energized coil when the magnet swings inside, otherwise the coil would slide towards the magnet. There is nothing else. I am confused as to why there is so much confusion regarding such a non-confusing device. lol
Hi Wattsup,
which picture do you mean ?
Please quote the file name.
I can not see this.
Surely it is a very easy device,
but I would prefer to see, how the drive coil #15 looks alike,
what DC Ohm resistance it has , how many windings and what kind
of drivemagnet is inside and how big the drivemagnet is.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
@Stefan
You can see the coil #15 on the following pictures on page 2. b084.jpg and da7a.jpg
HG does not mention the pounds of wire or turns for this drive coil, but by looking at that coil compared to the three pounds of the center coil and the four pounds of the right coil, I would gestimate 1.5 pounds maximum of 15 awg wire, and he says if a bigger wire was used, it would be better.
The most amazing thing about this simple but rather massive coil is that it is being driven by only 1.2 volts, and the action on the center magnet is immediate. I think this proves that the micro contacts are creating a spike at every interval that just reacts similiar to a cap discharge, especially with the reversing of the current.
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 31, 2008, 08:53:07 AM
Hay Gyula:
Sure, I will try this suggestion. My point with Mr. Krieg is his unreasonable expectations, and name calling bully attitude! If your schematics are drawn out like Wattsup?s, I shouldn?t have to many questions. I haven?t done any tinkering in a long time, and am looking forward to having ?fun?!
Thanks for your assistance.
David
Hi David,
OK. First may I ask if you happen to have some components in your 'junk box'? like diodes of at least 1A forward current ratings (like 1N4001 or the like) or instead of this a full wave bridge that already has the 4 diodes, or electrolytic capacitors like 4700uF-10000uF/ 16V or the mains transformer 120V/ 6 or 9 or 12 output voltage at least with 1 Amper rating?
If I can consider what you have, it will be more economical for you to build the circuit.
If you happen to have a wall adapter you could assign for the task, describe what parameters it has, like you can see in my links given just before. Maybe you can salvage the transformer from it or maybe you can use it as it is now, without dismembering it... :)
rgds, Gyula
Sorry guys,
I was an idiot ! ;)
I did not see, that the first left red copper cool
is the drivercoil and the 2 green coils are the output coils !
I thought David just had 3 output coils !
;D
Now everything is clear !
David, did you wind the drive copper coil
also with this 2 wires in parellel and did connect
the 2 wires like the Tesla Flat coil ?
Many thanks for clearing this up.
Regards, Stefan.
Now David,
it would maybe much easier, if you would substitute the teeter-totter,
just with a rotational commutator device, so you can really run
this device with real rotations and can thus get very high RPMs
and thus much more output power.
You can very easily convert your circuit to a Newman type commutator.
You just only need to put some plastic tape onto your axis
and put one battery contact scratching to your axis via a wire
and then use another wire, which touches the part of the
taped axis for each rotation only maybe 45 degrees.
So you tape the end of the axis this way, that you just only have
315 degrees taped with duct tape and 45 degrees of the axix shaft are visible.
Then when the wire there touches the axis, it will only
make contact during the 45 degrees and this gives the drivemagnet
a spin and during the rest of the 315 degrees its mass moment will continue
to spin...
So you only pulse the drive coil for 45 degrees of rotation and the rest
of the 315 degrees it is not energized.
This way you will get a spinning axis and thus it will speed
up and produce much more power output.
Hope you can try this soon David and report back.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi David,
you need only one switch to do the rotation,
like this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kImw20rglNo
Have a look, how he turns his switch on with his
camshaft for about 90 degrees only.
Then the magnet inside the coil rotates and the
inertia momemtum lets it rotate further through the whole
rotation.
@Stefan
The whole point of HGs' device is that it does not need to turn or rotate. As soon as those generator magnets would go vertical or pointing up and down (which they do not), there is zero energy being produced because there are no generator coils on the top or bottom so you would be wasting energy to turn the magnets 360 degress. By simply swinging back and forth, the magnets are always in the coil range thus always producing energy in each half motion.
In Newmans device, the magnet always goes through a zero non producing zone when the magnet is full top or full bottom versus HGs that always stays in the energy producing zone. This is probably why he can gets those LEDS to light with such little swing.
To increase power, you would have to develop the same design but increase the swing frequency. This you could probably do by using 4 N/O reed contacts that work right off the drive magnets. This would do away with the micro contacts completly, but this could cause a loss in any sparking effect caused by the micro contacts and thus may be desirable in the system.
Hi Wattsup you are right,
but I still think, the full rotation is a good idea to try
and as you would only energize the drivercoil
for maybe 20 to 45 degrees per rotation that would not take
much energy to run and the advantage would be to use only
one switch to switch the current on to the coil.
Also due to the inertia of the whole axis with the magnets
the speed would not go down so easily and as David said,
the generator magnets do not feel any drag.
So you could also just try to put a heavy flywheel
onto the axis and giveit a spin and see how long the axis will
turn and see the difference in slow down winding time,
onetime with the LED load and another try without the LED load
and open output coils.
Hay Stefan:
Glad you understand the electromagnetic driver coil! The driver coil is 15 gauge, 1 to 1.5 LBS. I would go with 1LB and that should be around 140 turns. You might have more favorable results with a heaver gauge wire maybe 12 gauge with 100 turns. The driver coil is single strand. I tried a double wound and the magnetic field was not good.
I haven't done any serious testing on what happens when the axle is spun in a circle, however, I believe you will create hysteresis. There is a chance that a slow spin would work. Wattsup is right about the no voltage during half the spin. Sandwiching the magnets with a second coil has negative effects. When I get a chance, I try it.
David
Hay Gyula:
Anything I need I will get at Radio Shack. I have all kinds of transformers. Just for the heck of it I hooked up several transformers to see what kind of resistance they produced. The best results were from the recharging circuit from an old electric razor, and a charger for 3 volt batteries. They slowed down the unit, however, using 3-volt as the input voltage, they seemed to work well. Using a cap first, works very good. I have an assortment of caps. Zener diodes work better than silicon diodes, but with a 3-volt input there isn?t a noticeable difference.
I appreciate your help.
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on January 31, 2008, 05:23:34 PM
...The best results were from the recharging circuit from an old electric razor, and a charger for 3 volt batteries. They slowed down the unit, however, using 3-volt as the input voltage, they seemed to work well. Using a cap first, works very good. I have an assortment of caps. Zener diodes work better than silicon diodes, but with a 3-volt input there isn?t a noticeable difference.
Hi David,
Thanks for the infos. My questions:
-- You mean you connected the 117V or 120V AC primary side of your old electric razor recharging transformer to your green ouput coil? If so, what DC or AC voltage did you get from the output of recharging circuit?
-- and what did you get in case of the 3V charger at its output when you hooked it to your green coil? Did you have any load at the outputs of the recharging circuit (or that of the 3V charger) or their outputs were unloaded?
-- I do not get this: Using a cap first, works very good. Where did you use a cap and what was its value?
-- The same as before: Zener diodes work better than silicon diodes, but with a 3-volt input there isn?t a noticeable difference. Normally Zeners are not used instead of silicon diodes that is why I ask where you used them?
Gyula
Hi David,
I did not quite understand, what your last message means.
Did you try to transform your voltage from a green coil down
to about 3 Volts DC ( after the graetz and buffer cap) and
did you try to run it in a selflooped mode ?
You could also try to hook both green coils in series, so you have double the voltage
and then transform this down with a tranformer, graetz bridge rectify the low
voltage output and put it parallel to the battery and then remove the
battery and see, if the circuit continues to work.
Many thanks.
Hay Gyula:
I am going to have to wait until tomorrow to give that info.
David
Hay Gyula:
Well my old razor-recharging transformer bit the dust. It took 3-volt input into my device, and I ended up rattling my switches to pieces. The lesson I learned is don?t run power to the charging unit in reverse! I checked a couple of dozen different transformers and the one that works the best (as far as resistance) is my new camera recharger! The output is 4 volts and 30mA, DC average, when its hooked to the output coil. I don?t have a clue what kind of circuit is in it but the case is rather flat, vs., the more typical dome type transformers. What to do with the power from there I don?t have a clue. I would think that I would need to temporally store the power before it goes into the driver coil.
About the capacitor, I referred to earlier; I can hook the cap with a diode straight off the output coil terminals. I don?t have any ideas what to do with the charged cap after that.
I might need to charge a battery first and switch batteries as Mr. Krieg suggested. Your ideas would be appreciated. Just a note, Stefan is talking way over my head with the circuits!
Thanks
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on February 01, 2008, 09:24:49 PM
Hay Gyula:
Well my old razor-recharging transformer bit the dust. It took 3-volt input into my device, and I ended up rattling my switches to pieces. The lesson I learned is don?t run power to the charging unit in reverse! I checked a couple of dozen different transformers and the one that works the best (as far as resistance) is my new camera recharger! The output is 4 volts and 30mA, DC average, when its hooked to the output coil. I don?t have a clue what kind of circuit is in it but the case is rather flat, vs., the more typical dome type transformers. What to do with the power from there I don?t have a clue. I would think that I would need to temporally store the power before it goes into the driver coil.
About the capacitor, I referred to earlier; I can hook the cap with a diode straight off the output coil terminals. I don?t have any ideas what to do with the charged cap after that.
I might need to charge a battery first and switch batteries as Mr. Krieg suggested. Your ideas would be appreciated. Just a note, Stefan is talking way over my head with the circuits!
Thanks
David
Hi David,
I have drawn a schematics on a "power supply" that I think will serve good in converting the 2-10Hz AC voltage created in your green output coil(s).
I do not insist on your using the Radio Shack mains transformer I show, you may choose from your choices of your junk box: the goal is it should have a 110-120V AC primary input winding and a 6 or 12 or 18V AC secondary winding of at least 1 Amper output current capability . And I mean you should have access to its secondary winding connections directly, not meaning it is connected to other components in its original circuit (if it is so, then you must disconnect everything from the secondary coil of your transformer, so that there should be no any unwanted component connected to the secondary, except what I show in my drawing).
The RS transformer has a center tap on its secondary coil, it means practically it has two 6V windings connected inside in series and the connection point is the Black wire (usually), the 12V is between the two red wires (usually). I do not know what color the primary coil wires are brought out with, but you can idenfy them by DC resistance metering with your meter: you must find some tens Ohms or higher of primary DC resistance and almost a short circuit (1-2 Ohms) secondary coil resistance.
The full wave bridge can also be replaced with any diode bridge you happen to have: the goal is it must be of at least 1-2 Amper forward current with 20-30V reverse voltage ratings. If you have 4 individual diodes of similar ratings I will show you how to make the diode bridge instead of this one.
The puffer capacitor has its own polarity marked on its body with either arrows or light color stripe lengthwise: that is its negative side. If you have any other similar electrolytic capacitors like 1000uF or 4700uF etc with at least 16V or higher DC voltage ratings, you can use them of course.
When you are ready with building this circuit, and double checked for correct wireing, please connect it to your mains output of 120V AC for testing it! You could load it with anything that consumes around 0.5 - 1 Amper at the measured DC OUTPUT I indicated in my drawing. Then write what you have found, ok?
Good Luck and if you have any questions, ask.
Gyula
Hi all,
@Handyguy1
I see what you have created is a mechanical H-Bridge.
When X is down A = Pos & B = Neg, and when Y is down A = Neg & B = Pos.
Quote from: lionhart on February 04, 2008, 06:53:21 AM
Hi all,
@Handyguy1
I see what you have created is a mechanical H-Bridge.
When X is down A = Pos & B = Neg, and when Y is down A = Neg & B = Pos.
Hi,
Yes, you are right. Here is some explanation on (an electrical) H-bridge for someone wishes to know more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-bridge
But in fact the function to be performed is doable with a double switch (DPDT) like this:
http://www.nmra.org/beginner/images/reverse.gif
The goal is to change the output polarity of a DC source at wish/when just needed.
From all these it comes an (electrical) H-bridge could be built to replace the mechanical switches (and the noise will be reduced almost completely ;) with it). Though to build a high efficiency H-bridge for switching about 1-2V DC at around 0.5-1 Amper switching need is not so easy....
rgds, Gyula
Hay Gyula:
Well, I put together the suggested circuit and the results were not as good as I had hoped. The resistance in the circuit is considerable so the device runs slow. So I used 3-volts as the input, the device was running at a normal speed until I hooked up a load. I tried several different transformers and had the same negative results. Then I revisited my old razor, wondering why the resistance was so low using that recharging circuit.. The problem was that the switch was half on. The razor circuit, under load puts out 1.5-volts at 30mA?s. My camera recharger under load puts out .5 volts and 20mA?s. The best thing about the camera recharger is that there is no slowdown on the device even under load. So I think I will ask my brother-in-law about that circuit. The only problem is that he talks way-way over my head! Another notable observation I have made is that my Craftsman 19.2 volt recharger doesn?t show any resistance when it is unloaded. When I put the battery in there was only a slight decrease in the device's speed. I believe I can find an old one to tear apart. I am tinkering with caps right now, but still haven?t stored enough power to operate the device.
So this is where I am right now, any suggestions will be appreciated!
David
Hay Wattsup:
Have you had any good results with the reed switches?
David
Hi David,
Thanks for the infos. So your assembled circuit as per my drawing works from the normal 120V mains? this is you have not mentioned.
The resistance (as you name it) which is the loading effect of the primary coil of the transformer you connect to the green output coil comes from the fact that your output AC frequency 2-8 Hz and this is considerably lower than the mains 60 Hz frequency the transformers designed for. Hence the inductive reactance of the primary coil is much less (if I consider a 5 Hz AC output from your green coil, the ratio is 60/5=12 so at this 5 Hz frequency the transformer coil represent a heavier load to your device: say if it has 6000 Ohm inductive reactance at 60 Hz, it will have only 6000/12=500 Ohm at your 5Hz.
One remedy would be to use at least two identical transformers, considering you happen to have some...
I show you a modified circuit, where you can see both the primaries and the secondary coils are connected in series. This way the primary inductive reactances are doubled, this involves your total peak output from the green coil gets divided by two (from one transformer primary coil point of view), hence their secondary outputs are also halved so this is why they are in series to regain the half-half divison at their primary. Notice: you have to figure out the correct sense of connecting the secondaries in series: in the wrong direction you will not have any output, if so you change one secondary wire pair for the opposite sense. You can check this in advance by using the mains but be very careful!
This may sound complicated or unusual for you but the good solution would be to design a dedicated transformer for your low frequency output range... just like an audio transformer is designed from 10-15 Hz up to over 10 kHz range.
One more thing: when you connect a transformer to your green coil output and load the transformer's secondary with a lamp, this is NOT the situation like your driver coil load will represent. Because your driver coil is seen by your battery as a pulsed load, not a continuous one. (A light bulb or a resistor is a continuous load, they are on in every fraction of a second, while your micro-switches just break this continuos loading effect just by your repetition frequency.) In other words, they make the loading effect easier for your generator coil.
rgds, Gyula
Hay Gyula:
I will let you know about this one tomorrow,
Thanks!
David
@HG
Just to let you know that I did some small tests with a neomag and a good sized reed switches (picked up a few during the weekend) and my conclusion is that there is very good directionality in positioning the magnets, so I will be doing some others tests with a standard DC motor with neos mounted on the shaft and four reed switches. I am curious to see if it will work and also what type of power it will draw. Then by using some caps, I can maybe catch the flyback and reuse it.
Regarding the circuit with one or two tranformers by gyulasun, I do not think it will work given the very low power production. When I have some time, I will make a diagram so you can test a free-runner without transformers, etc. It would be very simple in fact since the drive side needs to switch polarities, the gen side is also producing switched polarities, so by simply connecting the output of one gen to where the battery is, and instead of reversing two of the wires to the micro contacts, keep them connected all the same way since the generator will do the switching each time it changes direction, this should start by hand. Anyways, I'll make a quick diagram but it would be very interesting to see if it would work without a battery.
Hay Group:
The transformer ideas are not the way to go. The device runs at 2-10 Hz and the transformers are built for 50/60 Hz. I have considered a switch mode power supply, however I believe that the circuit will create it?s own problems. The device charges capacitors? easily but I have not found the trick of converting that energy to match the input needs of the device.
I happened to come across three solar cells that I was using in my early initial tests. The solar cells are Radio Shack Model -276-124, .55 volts at 0.3 amps ($4.99). I haven?t fully explored the possibility of the LED lights powering the solar cells. I hooked up the solar cells to the devices input terminals, used a 600-watt light to power the solar cells, and the solar cells powers up the device and all the LEDs as seen in the videos!
Just thought I would report on my status.
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on February 07, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
Hay Group:
The transformer ideas are not the way to go. The device runs at 2-10 Hz and the transformers are built for 50/60 Hz. I have considered a switch mode power supply, however I believe that the circuit will create it?s own problems. The device charges capacitors? easily but I have not found the trick of converting that energy to match the input needs of the device.
I happened to come across three solar cells that I was using in my early initial tests. The solar cells are Radio Shack Model -276-124, .55 volts at 0.3 amps ($4.99). I haven?t fully explored the possibility of the LED lights powering the solar cells. I hooked up the solar cells to the devices input terminals, used a 600-watt light to power the solar cells, and the solar cells powers up the device and all the LEDs as seen in the videos!
Just thought I would report on my status.
David
It should be easy to connect the output coil to the battery
Do you have any capacitors laying around?
here is a URL for a booklet describing a capacitve transformer
http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=35
I can't find my copy ...... so I can't give you a formula
A little playing around with caps should get you your results in a short time
In general you will need a cap big enough to handle the amount of power that you wish to return to the battery.
once you select your cap to start with ......... you will need more caps ...... if your output voltage is 4 times higher than you can use I would start with a cap 4 times larger than your original cap .
The idea is that the voltage will change depending on the ratio of the caps
once you have the combanation of caps in the right ball park ..... connect the output to a diode bridge ....... you will have just made a pulsing dc battery charger
I see no reason you can't run this in parallel with your leds
gary
David did you yet try this output circuit ?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3865.0%3Battach%3D17137&hash=45a0a729b9f2e8e832bcc2c5473879c2978bf08a)
But you should really use a transformer that has 120 Volts to 4 Volts output
and has at least 100 Watts power range, so it should not be a small
transformer to not have too many losses.
You need at least a transformer voltage ratio of 30 to 1
as seen from you scopeshots.
So it is vital to choose really the right big transformer with low losses
and the right voltage ratio for perfect impedance matching,
otherwise you will loose too much energy in the stepdown
process.
As I said before, it would be beneficial, if you don?t just use a
teeter-totter see-saw rocker effect, but use the same commutator
setup as in a Newman machine.
Then you only need one switch to make it work
and can have a real rotating setup.
Regards, Stefan.
Hay Stefan:
I did try that setup, but not with the transformer shown. I?ll pick one up this week and give it a try. I have been curious myself about spinning the magnets. I?ll research the Newman switch.
I will let you know what happens!
David
Okay, David,
just make sure you take a transformer, that really has a ratio
of about 30 to 1 so 120 Volts to 4 Volts would be okay and
be sure it is at least rated for around 50 Watts,otherwise it will
have too many losses if build too small.
Just watch a few Newman motor videos
on youtube.com and then you know how to build the commutator,
which is just a simple on-off-switch only,
so the current is just only pulsed to the coil at the right moment.
Quote from: wattsup on February 05, 2008, 12:19:47 PM
....
Regarding the circuit with one or two tranformers by gyulasun, I do not think it will work given the very low power production.
Hi Wattsup,
I am not sure what really mean above. The generator coil(s) produce low AC output power, you mean? Would you explain?
Quote from: wattsup on February 05, 2008, 12:19:47 PM
When I have some time, I will make a diagram so you can test a free-runner without transformers, etc. It would be very simple in fact since the drive side needs to switch polarities, the gen side is also producing switched polarities, so by simply connecting the output of one gen to where the battery is, and instead of reversing two of the wires to the micro contacts, keep them connected all the same way since the generator will do the switching each time it changes direction, this should start by hand. Anyways, I'll make a quick diagram but it would be very interesting to see if it would work without a battery.
I would very much like to see your proposed circuit diagram on your idea. Please do go on with it, it sounds interesting and logical.
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: handyguy1 on February 07, 2008, 11:59:23 AM
Hay Group:
The transformer ideas are not the way to go. The device runs at 2-10 Hz and the transformers are built for 50/60 Hz. I have considered a switch mode power supply, however I believe that the circuit will create it?s own problems. The device charges capacitors? easily but I have not found the trick of converting that energy to match the input needs of the device.
I happened to come across three solar cells that I was using in my early initial tests. The solar cells are Radio Shack Model -276-124, .55 volts at 0.3 amps ($4.99). I haven?t fully explored the possibility of the LED lights powering the solar cells. I hooked up the solar cells to the devices input terminals, used a 600-watt light to power the solar cells, and the solar cells powers up the device and all the LEDs as seen in the videos!
Just thought I would report on my status.
David
Hi David,
Sorry if you have not had success with the mains transformers yet. Yes their main problem is they are designed for 50/60Hz frequency and represent heavy load at 2-10Hz frequencies indeed. As I mentioned you would need a specially designed transformer dedicated for this frequency range and power audio transformers destined for HiFi valve amplifiers can be a candidate here but they are very expensive.
I encourage you on making friends with switch-mode power supplies, indeed they are of 60-70% conversion efficiency or higher and maybe your EE relative you mentioned could be handy here in building one?
I still mean the 78S40 switch mode IC the link I can only repeat here http://ludens.cl/Electron/dcdc/dcdc.html (The glow plug converter: 12V to 1.5V, at 4A).
I found another circuit for 2V output voltage at 1.5A current from an AC input voltage range of 90-265V, see here:
http://www.powerint.com/PDFFiles/di154.pdf
The IC used is from Power Integrations, Inc ( http://www.powerint.com )
EDIT: Forget to mention, solar cells are very, very low efficiency light-to DC output power converters, so that route is also of failure suspect... as you found with the 600W need...
rgds, Gyula
Hay Gyula:
Funny that you mention audio type circuits. My research does point me in that direction. It does appear that I need to get the frequency up. I have a few friends that are into the audio type stuff. I will have to grab a six-pack and go visiting!
I have been reviewing Newman?s machine. He is quite the character! I have been spinning the magnets in my device and it does create ?bad? forces. That makes me wonder about Newman spinning his device. Maybe the slow spin on a device the size of his overcomes that problem (hysteresis). I will also have to try out Gary?s idea.
Thanks for the links. I'll update as soon as I have something.
David
Hi David, what kind of "bad forces" do you get, when you spin your rotor and leave the drive coil open circuit ?
What then about the drag onto the output coils, when you leave the LEDs connected ?
Hay Stefan:
The bad forces I am referring to as far as I can tell is hysteresis. With no load there is no slow down of the device, when I spin the magnets. Using the LEDs as the load and spinning the magnets very slow, I don?t notice any slowdown, or opposing force. The faster I spin the magnets the more resistance I can feel.
I used a 3-volt motor first to spin the axle, then I used my fingers. The resistance is obvious. During my initial experiments, I noticed the same thing. That finding led me to find another way besides spinning the magnets. That?s how I came up with the quarter turn each way from the magnet edges vertical orientation.
This finding makes me wonder about the magnets spinning in the Newman machine. I believe the reason Mr. Newman only does mechanical work with his device, and does not hook it to its self is because the motor, in conjunction with the powerful magnets has a high level of torque. This is why he runs his machine at such slow speeds. I noticed that when my device is running I can pinch the axle and there is plenty of torque and not much slowdown. However, if I add just a little bit of electrical resistance it has a big negative effect.
If this doesn?t answer your question I will try again!
David
Hi David,
I now see what you mean.
I guess it comes from the effect, that the LEDs just have
a threshold voltage before they conduct the current.
If you are below this threshold voltage level ( as you have several diodes in series)
your resistance of the series LEDs might be very high, maybe a few 100 KOhms.
Now if you turn your rotator faster with a motor you will
get over the threshold voltage of the series LEDs and then the
load resistance of this series LEDs will be only maybe 200 Ohms,
so now you have a low resistance with amp drawing, so it is dragging
your rotor and will slow it down.
I would recommend you should first try to do a rectification with a greatz bridge
rectifier and a big cap directly at the green output coil and see, what voltage you will
get before powering the LEDs.
This way you will have a DC voltage you can power your LED chain.
Then see, if this will slow down the rotor again
and this way you can also see what energy you can get out of the green generator
coils, when you choose a bigger electrolyte cap, like 2000 uF or bigger...
You should first try this experiment before you try to loop
back so you will see, what DC voltage you will get at all at an output cap.
Many thanks.
Regards Stefan.
Hi David,
just use first such enclosed picture circuit and measure the DC voltage at the output
and then use one LED chain to power it and compare
with your old setup.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi David,
While I agree with Stefan reasonings, I have to draw attention to his modified schematics. Namely, the maximum voltage ratings of the full wave bridge and the electrolytic capacitor must be increased. I indicated 50V for the bridge and 35V for the puffer capacitor in MY drawings because I placed them AFTER the secondary of a down-transformator.
NOW that Stefan left out the transformator to help show you how he means the DC test, you have to use a bridge of at least 100V or higher ratings and electrolytic capacitor of at least 160V ratings to remain on the safe side if your generator coils still produce 60-70V peak AC output voltages. Because the unloaded DC voltage will be around 80-120V at least that gets stored in the capacitor at your normal 2-3Hz switching rate, this is what you can expect at least. And measure it of course to know it for sure, before you connect the LEDs, so that you could prepare for the number of LEDs in series (if you use less than what would be needed, you may easily end up with burnt-out LEDs).
rgds, Gyula
Yes, Gyula, you are right.
Many thanks for the hints.
And David, just put in series with the LED chain
at least a resistor of
10 to 100 Ohm,so this will
reduce the current through the LEDs.
@HG
Here attached is my first proposed wiring diagram as Self-Runner 1. I hope it is not too involved. By also using the N/C contacts and three capacitors of unknown value (at this stage) here's what would happen. First the micro contact arms may have to be readjusted.
Basically, while the gen magnet is in movement, cap #1 would get charged. When the swing rises at position #1, cap 1 discharges into cap 3. And cap 2 discharges into the drive coil.
Then, while the gen magnet is in movement, cap #1 would get charged again. When the swing rises at position #2, cap 1 discharges into cap 2. And cap 3 discharges into the drive coil.
Others may have some valid additions or changes to this diagram that I can modify later, but in general, I'm trying to figure out a way that you can do this without a transformer or diodes that may consume more juice. I mean you may be producing 60 or so volts but the amperage is very very low.
I know it looks maybe complicated but just follow the colored wires and you should be able to try this easily.
You'd need input on the cap values from some of the better EEers. I think you would need non-polarized caps but I could be wrong.
To start it up you will need to swing it manually.
Hi Wattsup,
do you also have a normal circuit diagram ?
Then it would get clearer.
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
Hay Stefan:
I did the spin test wrong. I should have increased the number of LEDs in the circuit. If the LED voltage requirements are lower than the coils output there is a resistance. So, when I spun the magnets the voltage goes up and I feel that resistance. I will try again with more LEDs in the circuit.
Your drawing in post #159 is what I was talking about, when I said that I can charge a cap, without slowing down the device. I get 60ish-volts measuring the cap. The first couple of cycles are slow, but the speed picks up after a few volts are in the cap. I can hook the LEDs to the cap (200-volt 220uF-470uF) (before I charge the cap) and it lights the LEDs nicely.
As Gyula recommends, I need to pick up a higher rated bridge, and see what difference that makes.
Wattsup?s idea looks real good. I need to pick up a few more connections to fit the switches. Wattsup, great job on your schematic, and reasoning!
David
Hi David,
yes,sounds good, that you can light the LEDs from the cap after
the bridge rectifier.
Yes, if the cap is still empty( about zero Volts)
the induction current into the cap is high and this will drag down the
rotor.
As the cap gets filled up only the maximum amplitude peak waves will
conduct current into the cap,
as for instance if the cap has 30 Volts DC and the coil produces 32 Volts as
peak signal, only the difference Voltage of 2 Volts will open up the diodes
and conduct current into the cap, so the current is much lower then.
But I did not yet redraw myself yet the new circuit from Wattsup,
so I could look what caps best to take.
The current connection plan is good to build but hard to see see, what is going on
at all...
no standard electronics schematics I am used to...! ;D
@Stefan
Here's a schematic diagram. Hope it will explain better the connections. This is the best I can do since I do not have any special circuit diagram software, etc. All this is done on CorelDraw, line by line. (Of course lots of cut and paste too.) lol
But I think HG will find it easier with the first diagram to do his connections.
Again if there are any changes to be made, please advise.
Hi Wattsup,
many thanks for the new drawing,
but should there always be a fixed connection
between NO and NC pins in your switches ?
Which switches switch together in which direction.
Please let us know.
Many thanks.
P.S: Or better asked:
Is in the last picture shown C connected with NC in all switches ?
@Stefan
Yes the common terminals go to the caps. The NC terminals go to the generator coil and the NO terminals go to the drive coil. The NO and NC never touch. Either the NO touches the Common or the NC touches the common like a regular SPDT relay.
The ideal contact switch for this design would have had a Common, NO and NC contact but while the lever is in travel from one side to the other, there would be no contact with either the NO or NC. The switches used do not do this, since they are either on the NC or NO connection, not in between, but this is OK since I think the fact that the generator coil is much bigger then the drive coil, it will decide or push the direction of current flow and switch polarities on the drive coil.
Now to figure out the caps, I would think they should be non-polarized to provide a flow in either direction and any values below 100 volts but with some good uf. Not too much. The idea is not to make power with these two coils. It is only to see if it can run on its own.
Hay Wattsup:
You are right the first drawing is the easyest to follow!
David
@Stefan
The way the first drawing is shown considering that all micro contact levers are up. This is not possible in reality because one pair is up and the other is down. But this diagram is when you do the wiring before you install the swing, so all contacts levers are up, hence the commons connect with the normally closed terminals. The normally open is not contacting. Maybe this is what is causing your confusion.
@HG
Gotcha covered.
I am curious if you ever tried to simply connect the drive coil, one generator coil and a capacitor in parallel. This means three connections together (one of each) and three connections together (the other of each). and gave the swing a few pushes, just to see what it will do. This would be the first basic test towards a self-runner.
Hay Wattsup:
Here is my update; I hooked everything up as suggested. There is a considerable amount of resistance. I believe due to the caps discharging to fast. I put my meter to the caps and found continuity at all the caps. My first thought is that I have a short some were and probably messed up one or two of the wires. I took it all apart, reassembled it and had the same results. So I decided to wire the device back to my original configuration and put the caps in one at a time.
The good news is that when I put the meter to the NC terminal wires to check for continuity, I found the back EMF! The back EMF only comes from the NC on the #12 A and AA switches, at about 1.2-volts and 50 mA. I shorted the wires together and it had no effect on the device! I then hooked the wires to the input terminals and it didn?t have to much effect. I tried to charge a cap and the cap bleeds off right away. I put in a diode and it still bleeds off right away. I put a diode on both sides and it still bleed off right away. I will have to try that again.
Then I hooked the NC wires to my secondary device and that worked great, with no bad effects to the primary device. However, the DC back EMF only pulses the magnets in the secondary device one way, but it still lights up the 36 volts of LEDs.
Well I just had to tell you that finding and capturing the back EMF is a big step forward. I am ecstatic about that! I will fill you in as I find out more!
David
@HG
Sorry to have taken so long to respond to your post as I have been absorbed by the EC trials. Great that you have done those tests and I think I know why it is doing what it is doing as suspected. Let me see this for another day and I will come back with some changes, but in general, I think under the proposed self-running diagram, the four micro contacts would have to be stacked two by two and only on one side of the swing, so that when the swing is up, it hits two contacts and when it is down, it hits two contacts. By adjusting the levers so the swing contacts them only at the last moment, either up or down, this would leave the main travel between the top and bottom position free, and this is when the Cap #1 would be charged, without the other caps being on line. What do yo think?
@HG
If you try the Self-Runner 1 again, remove cap #1. Or, if you have your original set-up just add two caps, one going from the top left cap NC to the top right NC, and the other going from the bottom left NC to the bottom right NC. Finding the right caps will be the key to get the right one that can take in and push out at the right speed to complement the magnets physical movement.
Those 3 and 4 pounds of pure raw coil are producing some good power so if you try this, you may need to put a resistor on the drive coil. I would say at least 750 ohms 1/2 amp but some here would know more about that. I am sure Stefan will know.
Also, if you do this test, please try to described exactly what is happening so we can get a good understanding of the dynamics under those conditions.
Hay Guys:
Earlier I said I found a half wave back emf. Well it was not back emf; it is the electricity that the driver coil makes. I finally found the second half wave. All it took was to swap switch 12 bb common and NO wires. The first thing I did was to hook the NC wires to the primary input terminals, but got negative effects. So I hooked the NC wires to the secondary device. The secondary device runs well up to a point. After a while both devices would stop, and not restart. I then removed the NC wires from the secondary device and hooked them to the primary input terminals. This time the primary device worked and pick up a small increase in speed. After a while, the device would stop again. I removed the NC wires and the primary device starts again and runs until the input cell runs down.
After doing this experiment numerous times, I concluded that the problem was timing. The timing of the switches on-off cycle changes with the drawdown of the input cell. From there I charged caps. The device ran smoothly but the charged caps did not add to the self-running of this device.
To learn a little more on the timing problems, I switched out one output coil on the primary device for a driver coil. The primary device now has two driver coils and one output coil. The device runs considerably faster, and the output from the one output coil is noticeably increased. Both driver coils on the same axle seem to eliminate the timing problem. I have not done enough tests yet, however the outlook seems good right now! The next logical step would be to hook the secondary devices axle, to the axle of the primary device, and run three output coils with two driver coils, all on one axle. Right now I am 50 minutes into the first timed test and the device hasn?t stopped and is still running quite strong.
I have also been exploring different caps and different setups for a self runner. There are several problems. The first is that I need to keep some charge in each cap. When the caps are hooked together if one discharges they all discharge. Putting a diode and resistor between each cap ends up being to much resistance for the device to run. The results are a little straight upward movement and no spin of the magnets or the magnets turn with a great gusto, but only for a half cycle. When I hook the caps to the input terminals, the caps discharge immediately. The solution I was pursuing is hooking the caps to separate micro switches installed on the opposite end of the primary device. In looking for ways to make a self-runner I keep coming back to having one of the coils charging a battery. While I was banting that idea around I remembered the coil is double wound. I haven?t previously done any tests with the output coil split into two separate outputs, by disconnecting the one outside wire from the one inside wire. When I do this, I haven?t noticed any bad effects. Each winding is producing half of the previous total output. Now this gives me the idea of using both outputs from one coil to charge caps, which should give the caps more time to charge.
Well I am an hour and fifteen minutes into this test and the device is still running. The 20 LED?s just barely lighting. This tells me that I am producing just under 60 volts. The device just stopped after one hour and twenty five minutes. This setup is worth pursuing.
Well this is where I am right now. I will post again when I have something!
David
@HG
Thanks for your last post; I was wondering about the back EMF you were describing. Good tests also.
We did not forgot you man. Just ultra busy with other projects, plus work, plus family, but I am working on a post and will put it up by tomorrow or the next day and hopefully this will give you some more direction on how to get this self-running, as I really believe the particular nature of your set-up is very promising for such an endeavor. I am also preparing (or proposing) a glossary of terms so we can talk the same language here as I think this type for swing set-up will be a major boon for OU.
@HG
It is good you are seeing that the switching for a self-runner would have to be modified as I had also noticed this but only after doing the Self-Runner 1 diagram. I will try to explain it as simply as possible so you can catch the idea.
But first, I am proposing a glossary of terms so we can talk the same language.
1) Idle - When a micro contact is "idle" this means it is at its normal position when not being pushed down. That means the N/O is open and the N/C is connected.
2) Active - When a micro contact is "active", this means the lever is pushed and now the N/O is connected and the N/C is open.
3) Swing Angle - It is the total top to bottom distance of movement of the swing.
4) Active Angle - It is that small part of the swing angle that the contact becomes active.
5) Idle Angle - It is that part of the swing angle that the contact remains idle.
Now, the first thing to do is adjust all four contact levers so they are active at the lowest possible moment of the swing on either side. So as soon as the swing starts going back up on one side, that sides contacts are immediately idle again. This means two contacts would be active only when the swing is down on one side, while the swing is going up and until the other side goes down the contacts are idle, then the other side is active.
If you compare this with the present contact lever settings, you will notice that one side or the other stay active for a much longer part of the swing angle. And this is normal because with a battery operation, you need that connection to hold and energize the drive coil during it's complete swing angle.
But when you decide to integrate capacitors, these capacitors will now replace the requirement of a longer active state, so all the micro contacts need to do is transfer capacitor discharges which happen in a fraction of a second, just enough time for a contact to be active then immediately idle. Then stay idle while the generator re-charges the main cap.
In the following diagram Self-Runner 2 is based on all contact levers being adjusted to be active when the swing is at the lowest position.
So while in the idle position Cap #1 is being energized by the generator. When the swing reaches any of the two bottom positions, it activates, discharges Cap #1 into Cap #2 and into the drive coil. While the swing rises again, Cap #2 discharges slowly into the drive coil and Cap #1 is being energized again by the generator coil but this time in reverse polarity. When the swing reached the bottom of the other side, Cap #1 now discharges in reverse polarity into Cap #2 and into the drive coil. And so on.
The success of this will depend on the choice of the right capacitor values. I would go with a non-polarized capacitor in both cases. For Cap #1 you need something that is high enough to not create a drive condition with the generator coil, I would say a 100uf 100v. For Cap #2, you need something that can be charged quickly with a high voltage but discharge slowly to give the drive coil enoug time to reach the next re-charge. I would say a 200uf 50v. But I'm sure you will have to test with other cap values to find the best match.
Lastly, you may have to reverse the generator coil wires on their terminals as from my perspective, I cannot foresee the polarities as they are shown on the coils. This will only be evident once tested.
I am looking at trying this scheme with two DC motors and a cam with regular micro contacts. But not right away because of my current project load.
Hope this helps.
Hay Wattsup:
Thanks for the support. I am impressed with your understanding of this device, especially without having the device in front of you. Your ideas are definitely helpful. The back emf I was referring to is the electricity that the driver coil produces. When I disconnect the input cell and run the magnets by hand, I can take the measurements on the driver coil terminals and input terminals using a MM. It is not very much but it is enough to run the secondary device. So this is another power source, independent of the input cell.
Last week I picked up two SPDT submini lever switches from radio shack (275-0016) for the same reason you presented (instant on, instant off). I have been contemplating setting up switches at the opposite end of the device to send a charge from cap to cap.
I?ll set up for your new schematic, and let you know.
David
Quote from: handyguy1 on February 26, 2008, 06:17:58 PM
Now this gives me the idea of using both outputs from one coil to charge caps, which should give the caps more time to charge.
Well I am an hour and fifteen minutes into this test and the device is still running. The 20 LED?s just barely lighting. This tells me that I am producing just under 60 volts. The device just stopped after one hour and twenty five minutes. This setup is worth pursuing.
Well this is where I am right now. I will post again when I have something!
David
Hi David,
do you say,that just running it on charged caps you were able to run it
all in all one hour and twenty five minutes ?
What caps did you use ?
Can you please post a new video with all your latest details ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi David,
Would like to be a bit nosy and inquire about your setup how it has been going since then?
rgds, Gyula
@gyulasun
I think @handyguy1 has not been around for a while. It's too bad because his design does have merit and I hope to try it in the near future when I can muster up some more time from the TPU videos. Hope he is doing OK.
Hay group:
Sorry about the delay.
A while back Stefan was asking about the double wound output coils, and Lenz law. Both subjects were something I needed to tinker with and come up with some sort of answer. I decided to spin a single wire coil, and address Lenz law and Eddy currents by using 44AWG wire. Currently, the circuit is superconducting when the LEDs voltage requirements matched the voltage of the output coil.
My question was ?would a single wire coil of 44 AWG magnet wire show any signs of Lenz law or Eddy currents, or hysteresis?. If bad forces are there the 44 AWG wire will clearly demonstrate it.
I ordered 3 lbs of 44 AWG wire and 200 LEDS (3.2@25mA). After winding somewhere around a pound of the 44 AWG wire, the wire broke and so did my arm from hand winding the coil. The results are nothing less than spectacular! The LEDs are arranged in series with 120 LED?s per half cycle. I fired the coil up and all the LEDs light quite nicely. There is a small amount of resistance; however, adding a 100K ohm resistor in series eliminates the resistance, the LEDs still light, and the circuit goes superconducting. I need to buy more LEDs to replace the resistor.
Early on, experimenting with different gauge wire, I spun a coil with 21-gauge wire. It is about two and a half pounds. According to my MM and data recorder, the 21-gauge coil put out 4-5 volts and 35 mA?s. That came out to around 20 percent efficient, so I concentrated on the 29-gauge wire to concentrate on 300% efficiency from one coil. During the rest periods from spinning the 44-gauge coil, I used a solder-less breadboard to parallel the LEDs to load check the amperage output of the 21-gauge coil. I had 91 LEDs 3.2v@25mA in parallel and they all lite up. The LEDs show no signs of lack of amperage. I need to buy more LEDs.
Both of these coils operate simultaneously along with the secondary device (29 -gauge) operating 36.5 volts of LEDs, all powered by one 1.2 volt, 550mAh AA cell.
I am getting ready to show this device at one of the local TV stations. What I would like comments on is; how many LEDs do I need to light up, to fall into the extraordinary proof category, or, should I increase the size of the coils?
21 gauge coil powers 91+ LEDs in parallel
29 gauge powers 15 colored LEDs (36.5 volts)
44 gauge powers 120+ LEDs in series
Power source: one- 1.2 volt ? 550mAh AA cell.
David Middleton
Hi David,
Thank you for all the infos. I am puzzled a little by your results and would really like to help but I cannot define what falls into an extraordinary proof category in your case.
This is because as you often write you ' light up' the LEDs and this means intermittent or fluctuating light output and normally such ways of operation makes correct evaluation of output power difficult.
LEDs have their known forward voltage drop of around 3.1V each, multiplied by their number in series, this constitutes a threshold voltage in the load under which there is no real load at the output and above which there is a nonlinearly increasing load at the output.
Your data logger can come here to rescue of course but your waveforms data presented on trace 3 for the output current is very very noisy due to the extremely low voltage drop on your 0.05 Ohm shunt (and due to the series 100kOhm resistor you used then in January?).
So I think output power evaluation could be run with your setup of 91 LEDS in parallel because there cannot flow microampers but at least several milliampers and please try using at least a 1 Ohm shunt resistor instead of the 0.05 Ohm.
This way the current waveform should show up far above the noise level like in trace 2 here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3865.0;attach=16744
(It does not turn out clearly if you used any other LEDs in series with your 91 paralled LEDs and I assumed above there are the 91 LEDs in parallel that load directly your output coil. So in this scenario it would be good to see all the 4 logger traces, focusing on a relatively noiseless trace 3. And when you write: I had 91 LEDs 3.2v@25mA in parallel and they all lite up. The LEDs show no signs of lack of amperage. I cannot know whether you meant data sheet specifications for the white LEDs or you meant measured data so your output was loaded by a current of 25mA times 91 @ 3.2V output voltage? )
Of course you can show the logger output of any of the setups you listed:
21 gauge coil powers 91+ LEDs in parallel
29 gauge powers 15 colored LEDs (36.5 volts)
44 gauge powers 120+ LEDs in series
the point is to be able to clearly see trace 3 output current waveforms much like the input current in trace 2.
You do not need to use a precision 1 Ohm resistor, for once you have a digital multimeter, you can always assemble such 1 Ohm value from several other "neighboring" values by connecting them in parallel or series as your junk box dictates.
rgds, Gyula
Hi David,
I agree to Dyla,
that we need to see new datalogger scope shots.
Also was it a typo that you said you put the +91 diodes in parallel
and you meant in series ?
Putting them in series makes more sense as we have learned throughout this thread
to keep the amps down and thus negative Lenz law effects to drag down the magnet rotor...
Regards, Stefan.
Hay Gyula:
Thanks for the input. The reason I ask about extraordinary proof is just for demonstration purposes only. I would like to light up enough LEDs using a 1.2 volt 550mA AA cell, to make the observer say ?that?s impossible?, there MUST be a hidden power source!
I just ordered 500 more LEDs. It takes a week or so to get them. I have everything apart right now so next week I?ll get you a chart using a 1 ohm resistor.
David
Hay Stefan:
I will have new data logger shots next week. 91 diodes in parallel is not a typo. I forgot to mention I had one LED in series with the 91 LEDs. It looks as though I will end up with around 110 LEDs in parallel. This is strange because the data recorder, as recorded across a .05 ohm resistor and my MM both say the 21gauge output coil puts out 35-40 milliamps. When I measure across a 1-ohm resistor I get 2 milliamps, no matter which output coil I measure. I get the same results whether I use a resistor or LEDs as the load. Ohm?s law just does not work. You said ?Putting them in series makes more sense as we have learned throughout this thread to keep the amps down and thus negative Lenz law effects to drag down the magnet rotor...?. Actually, amps don?t seem to be the restricting factor, volts do.
Speaking of volts, This new 44 ga coil I just made shows 240 volts on the ac setting. I get 250 volts measuring across a cap. Right now I have 120 LEDs in series which means that the LEDS are lighting up at 2 volts. I can?t get the LED?s to light up using 2 volts from a cell. Until I get my next order of LEDs I have to use a 100k ohm resistor to make the coil go superconducting. The point being that I expect to use more than 120 LEDs, which means that the voltage to each LED will be less than 2 volts. What does this mean?
1. I am not measuring voltage correctly.
2. The LEDs are not specked right (white LEDs)
3. The type of electricity produced by the output coils is different, and does not register correctly with voltage measuring devices.
4. Eliminating Lenz law eliminates changes in the size and temperature of the electron, which changes the working characteristics of diodes and resistors.
As I get more info, I will post it.
David Middleton
Very interesting thread... Personally I love the idea and concepts behind this HG device.. Would love to hear more updates about it's progress.
Hi David,
it seems you are measuring something wrong here.
If you have 91 diodes in parallel and 1 in series to them,
then you clamp your output voltage to the series threshold voltage of
around 4 to 5 Volts.
So you coil output voltage will not go much higher than this.
WHat is your open circuit output voltage, when no load ( no LEDS)
are connected ?
I guess it is much better to put all LEDs in series and thus have a high voltage
low current for the output.
Just put so many LEDs in series, so that the open circuit voltage is
still a bit higher, than the added up series threshold voltage of all LEDs
in series.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
@handyguy
I don't know if you are still sticking around the forums.
I always wanted to make a non moving version of the Thingamajigger and here is my new toy I made today. It is my ElectroSwingMagnet or ESM for short. I will put this inside a nice wound coil and start pulsing it. The coils north are all parallel as common and the two souths will be pulsed one after the other. This will create the up and down of the north always on one side and the south always on the other side just like the real magnet.
I had tried a few versions with four linear coils but they all wasted one side of the coil field. The dilema of this design was to find some way that would not waste one side of the north and south fields so both sides are used to their maximum potential, thus or hopefully increasing efficiency. I found these coils at my EE supply for 25 cents each. Tested a few first and got good action and good pick up off a few sample pre-wound coils.
I have also pre-tested the use of two three-way reed switches to oscillate two transformer primaries, so I can use this same technique to pulse these back and forth without using transistors. If the coil output can then be fed into a cap tank and re-fed through the reed line, all while voltage in the cap tank increases, bingo. I may use transistors afterwards to get pulsing even higher. Maybe even add a cap on each side to make to LC circuits and run them in resonance mode.
Now to put it to test in a coil.
We may not be able to create a rotating field but we should be able to at least make it swing a bit. If I can virtually swing the field fast enough, it should be able to produce some real juice without making the rattling noise. It should swing much faster then with the real magnet and micro switches.
There may be issues with the core material but since I found these ready made, I wanted to to try them as is. I understand I may have to change core material but that will be in the next steps if required.
Oh yeh, in case this idea pans out, I would like to declare now that the ESM is open source to the World with credit and thanks to @handyguy for his great idea.
Name: handyguy1
Posts: 72 (0.244 per day)
Position: Jr. Member
Date Registered: January 03, 2008, 02:13:48 PM
Last Active: June 04, 2008, 08:48:39 PM
@guys
OK, here is the deal. I made an outer coil for my ESM as shown on the previous page of this thread.
The center coiling is composed of standard off the shelf ferrite chokes that I made into the shown configuration. The reason I use them this way is to have both the North and South polarities active from the coil so as not to waste any pulsing energy. The cross scheme is to permit the North polarities to hit one side of the outer coil and the South the other side. So when one pulse in one center coil length, the North will hit the top on the left outer coil and the South will hit the bottom of the right outer coil. When the next pulse happens on the other center coil length, the North will hit the bottom on the left outer coil and the South will hit the top of the right outer coil. All this is done form inside the outer coil pushing outwards. This is basically replicating @handyguys1's swinging magnet system, without any movement.
The center coils have only three connections. One is the common (negative) and the other two are the positives, or it could be that the common is the positive and the other two are the negatives.
I made the outer coil much thinner and taller then @handyguy1's generating coil simply because I did some compass trials with the center coil and the field is very close to the ferrites, whereas his coils are wider because his magnet is shooting the swinging field further out.
By putting my negative to the common and just manually moving the positive power to and from each of the positives I am getting very good coupling into the outer coil. Very good. I put a small 12vdc neon light on the outer coil output and with only 3vdc on the inner coil, the light is pulsing each time I hit the positives.
Now when I pulse manually only one one coil, nothing much happens. It is the alternating between the two coils that is pushing the juice in the outer coil. And it takes about 4-5 pulsing to get the juice flowing. This is very encouraging.
So here is the deal as far as any potential circuitry to run this thing (or non-moving Thingamajigger - lol).
First of all I need to pulse one coil, then the other, then back to the first, and so on relative to my frequency generator. I need anywhere from 3-12vdc pulsing only. Here is the clincher.....
I want to see this thing run with gain being looped back to the source. lol
Let's say I use two 1.5vdc batteries to run. Once I have 6 volts or more on the outer coil capacitor, I want to send 3 vdc back to the input and be able to disconnect the batteries. lol I think this system will be able to do it plus I need an output that can also run some LEDs or other load.
If I can achieve this and it still runs without the batteries connected, I don't think we need more then that to show any OU potential.
The fact that this system will use pulsation that will be 1000s of times faster then @handyguys mechanical swinging action, I am convinced that the results will be great. But when do we think the contrary. lol
Anyways, @Groundloop or others here, if you guys can give me some help for the circuit, I will get it made by my local EEers and hopefully test this ASAP hopefully before the end of the year.
Keep on.
@all
During the weekend I did some tests with my ESM. It is very promising.
Since I needed a way to pulse each coil alternately, I used two IRF840s and drove them with my computer audio outputs using a frequency generator program that enables me to adjust the left and right frequencies plus it also enables me to adjust the phasing so both pulses do not happen at the same time.
I used only the positive left and right audio outputs leaving the commons together but not connected. The voltage from the audio was extremely minimal and adjusted to have just enough to see the the pulsing on the scope.
My DC power supply was set at 1.5volts and 1.21 amps. Increasing the voltage to the mosfet source did not give that much more gain and actually hindered it a higher levels.
The best frequency for both the left and right audio outputs was at 13112 hertz and the left channel was at phase 0 and the right channel was at phase 38.70. This gave the best gain.
I ran the circuit until the output capacitor showed no more voltage rise after 92 volts.
I put a 12vdc small bulb parallel to output capacitor. It was very dimly lit and the voltage on the meter stayed steady around 1.78 volts.
So all this is telling me that if I can run this with a stand alone circuit that uses the least amount of energy possible and that can be driven with a 1.5 volts to 3 volts battery source, I think there is a way to send the output back to the input and run this in a loop. lol
If any of the members can help out with a circuit, I would appreciate it. Basics is alternate pulsing of 13112 hertz (or around) with a maximum of 3 volts running the circuit to have 1.5 volts to pulse the coils. One of the pulses has to be around 38.7 degrees out of phase with the other.
wattsup
@wattsup
What is the resonance frequency of the outer coil ?
(inductance L with its stray capacitance)
Do you have a scope so you can see this ?
Please drive it at this frequency if you can.
Please use a graetz bridge with fast diodes ( 1N5408 series) at the output of the outer
coil, as it gives you double the output power.
Many thanks for these tests.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S. You could also try, if an Avramenko plug (2 diodes, one cap)
only connected to one pin of the output coil will get you more output power.
It also will have
less drag on the driver coils
at the resonance frequency of the output coil.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Wattsup,
Maybe it is only a drawing mistake but I do not like your IRF840s Source electrodes receive a positive polarity from the DC supply and their Drain electrodes get a negative one.
The correct polarity should be just the opposite, Sources get negative and Drains get positive polarities, normal for an N-channel MOSFET. (Think also of the built-in body diodes across the Drain - Source electrodes, they get a forward bias from the DC supply now in your drawing.)
Will think of a simple phase shift circuit and a pulse oscillator.
rgds, Gyula
Hi Wattsup,
I am going to show you a schematics on a simple pulse generator and phase shifter circuit but there are two more things I still have mention to you.
The first problem is you wish to use max 3V DC to feed your switches + its driving circuits if I understand your last letter well. The 3V is just the threshold voltage for the IRF840 MOSFETs to just switch them on, if you look at the data sheet, http://media.digikey.com/PDF/Data%20Sheets/ST%20Microelectronics%20PDFS/IRF840.pdf it turns out the 0.75 Ohm drain-source ON resistance comes at least with 10V gate-source switching voltage. At and around 3V it is very uncertain and its drain source ON resistance can be several Ohms or higher at and around the 3V treshold.
The second problem is connected mainly to the MOSFET type because if you consider your coils DC resistance which are very low with their few turns, well under the milliOhm range and the MOSFETsay 0.8 Ohm ON resistance, out of these two resistances in series the (I*I*R) loss is much bigger on the MOSFET, it 'eats' most of the input power and very little gets to the coils.
The remedy for this is to choose a MOSFET with much better ON resistance, though in this case there is no much choice because the best MOSFETs in this respect have 2-3 milliOhms...
Nevertheless, if you assign your test for an approximate one, what could be had as output, then go ahead of course, keeping in mind such considerations.
The Schematic partly comes from nul-points http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4419.msg97648#msg97648 for the pulse oscillator and partly comes from this link http://www.tedpavlic.com/teaching/osu/ece209/lab1_intro/lab1_intro_phase_shifter.pdf , worked together by me. The data sheets for the CD4093BC and the LT1077CN8 are here:
http://www.national.com/ds/CD/CD4093BC.pdf
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1154,C1009,C1099,P1275,D2472
Hints for the circuit: the value of C1 is 10nF rather than 47nF, to cover higher than 13kHz.
In the phase shifter circuit the R potmeter can also be 47kOhm, be careful never go down with it to very low values (put a 4.7KOhm resistor in series with it) so that the waveform should not suffer at the output.
The value of the C capacitor here can also be a 10nF for a start. The simplicity of this circuit lets you know to figure out the amount of the phase shift only by calculation, in practice by tweaking the phase shift potmeter like you tweaked the phase shift by your software.
I suggest you run this circuit from a 9V dry battery and the separate DC supply for the MOSFETs can be set to 2-3V only, because the consumption from 9V will be under the milliamp range on the avarege, the main input power neccessity will come from the 2-3V supply to the coils.
rgds, Gyula
@Stefan
Last night I tried only on the outer coil and a parallel capacitor that was fed via my FG through a small bulb trying to find the resonance frequency that would turn off the bulb (as taught by @armagdn03) and nothing up to above 2mhz. I tried all frequency scales and could not identify the resonance frequency. I will try again this time with my dc pulse generator that I usually find resonances at much lower frequencies with DC pulsing. I now have a bridge rectifier on the outer coil output.
@gyulasun
Thanks for your indications on the IRF840. I did in fact connect it as shown in the diagram with source to positive and two drains going one to each center coil and the results were as indicated. I have done this many times with the IRF840.
Now following your lead I connected the source to the power supply negative and put the feed positive on the center coil common and this also worked and I would say much much better indeed.
The voltage rises were up to 330 volts when I stopped and the rise would happen at more varied frequency mixes and phase settings. I used source voltages of 1.5 to 12 volts and the range gave me different rises speeds also.
My intention was mainly to prove the non-moving @handyguy1 concept of not rotating but simply using the pulses to shift the same polarity on each side of the inner section of the outer coil and it works exactly as I had envisioned as a non-moving replication. This will maybe inspire me to push my VAR project using an alternator stator as the outer coil and making a center non-moving coil/core. But not right now, too busy.
@handyguy1 was using two long and very strong neo magnets that developed a much higher magnetic flux and I am confident that my center coil could be made with much higher flux potential. I used 12 standard off the shelf (25 cents each) choke coils for this build and the open spacing between the inner coil ends and the outer coils would be considered very wide in motor coupling standards. So I am sure with a tighter spacing, better inner coil wire choice and a better core configuration for the inner coils will be extremely efficient. Just the fact that each inner coil is using both its north and south polarity means reduced waste of driving energy.
Also @handguy1s generator coil was a good 3 lbs. of winding and mine is only 1/2 lb with the 1500 turns.
It is really incredible how much fun you can have with two IRF840s, a computer audio card and a frequency generator program that can give both left and right frequency as well as the left and right phasing. Even though I can only go up to 20khz, when using pulsed dc, I have found that you do not require to go up into the 100khz levels as you would need with AC square and sine waves.
I will take the next day or so to find the best levels offering fastest and strongest voltage rises and once I know this, will put the final result and a final diagram and hopefully we can then look to make a circuit to do it as a battery driven stand alone with loop back.
Hopefully, by then I will also have the @groundloop circuit board via @najman100 (see @gotolucs Resonance effects thread) and once it is built, I can try it on this also with reverse polarity pulsing although I think this design will not work in such a way and simply cause field cancellations.
But in general, it is good to envision something, build it and see it react as planned. This confirms to me that thinking about your build very carefully in advance of building anything is important and things should work first in your mind, then in practice. Now I can't wait to have a circuit to run this thingy. lol
More fun to come.
Added:
@gyulasun
Just saw your last post right now. I will read it and respond or maybe some of my above information will answers some of your questions. Thanks.
Quote from: wattsup on December 30, 2008, 10:03:44 AM
@Stefan
Last night I tried only on the outer coil and a parallel capacitor that was fed via my FG through a small bulb trying to find the resonance frequency that would turn off the bulb (as taught by @armagdn03) and nothing up to above 2mhz. I tried all frequency scales and could not identify the resonance frequency. I will try again this time with my dc pulse generator that I usually find resonances at much lower frequencies with DC pulsing. I now have a bridge rectifier on the outer coil output.
Hi Wattsup,
Would like to tell you that the best method for the above problem is to use a GDO (Grid Dip Oscillator). Maybe you can borrow a GDO from amateur radio operators near to you or from a university lab.
Here is what it is, how to use:
http://home.att.net/~w4cwg/ngdip.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_dip_oscillator
http://users.tpg.com.au/users/ldbutler/NegResDipMeter.htm
Tha latter link includes a negative resistance oscillator too, with which you could make your coil to oscillate very near to its natural resonant frequency (no any capacitor connected in parallel with the coil). The oscillator needs only a p and n channel junction FET (jFet) and a variable voltage supply to find its negative resistance range, nothing else and if you bring an oscilloscope probe very near to this oscillating coil to make a loose inductive coupling, the picked up resonant oscillations could be evaluated on the scope.
One notice here: your outer coil must have a low resonant selectivity because of the high DC copper resistance the many turns involve, (214 Ohm) this is the main reason why it is a bit difficult to find its resonant frequency with the method you tried, even if you use parallel capacitors.
Quote
@gyulasun
Thanks for your indications on the IRF840. I did in fact connect it as shown in the diagram with source to positive and two drains going one to each center coil and the results were as indicated. I have done this many times with the IRF840.
Well, in those cases you operated the IRF840s in reverse mode and up to 0.8-0.9 V drain-source DC supply voltages the body diode remained more or less closed in spite of the forward bias received, but at higher supply voltages the diode started to shunt (i.e. short circuit) the drain-source path.
Thanks for the further info on your findings with this circuit.
rgds, Gyula