i have had this idea for quite a while, and though i haven't read every post made by everyone, i have read 100's of related posts but never saw this idea, and was wondering if anyone else already knows the 'problems' of such a device. see the attached JPG.
basically, the propeller or wheel spins clockwise. as shown, at the top of the image, the outer static magnet will pull the cylindrical magnet up the spoke somewhat, while at the same time, at the bottom of the image, the outer static magnet will push the cylindrical magnet up the spoke somewhat; keeping the right side of the propeller/wheel over-weighted. stainless steel can be used to shield magnetic fields when like poles are coming at each other, or when opposite poles are leaving each other; and gravity adds energy to the right-side over-weighted propeller/wheel, and the lower outside magnet boosts the magnet on the spoke inwards and upwards.
it seems to me that if everything was arranged properly, and any necessary shielding was used properly, the 'magnetic bessler wheel' should work, because there are more forces acting to make the propeller/wheel spin clockwise than the total number of forces that are in opposition.
i don't have the material at this time to try it, but if i did, i would, and i will when i can - but i thought i'd share this in case anyone does have the materials. just a good chop-stick, a nail, and 2 cylindrical magnets, and 2 bar magnets.
Work = (Force x Distance)
Work = (Mass x Acceleration x Distance)
what work is being done to spin CW?
what work is being done to spin CCW?
gravity does work downward on both the right side and left side equally if the center-of-gravity of the spoke is on the axle. if the center-of-gravity is on the left side, the wheel will spin CCW; and if the center-of-gravity is on the right side, the wheel will spin CW. the goal is to unbalance the work done by gravity on each side of the axle by using magnets and shielding as both anti-gravity devices and center-of-gravity shifters; limiting the work done by gravity on the left side, and increasing the work done by gravity on the right side.
people say it is very possible to spin a horizontal disc almost 360 degrees using only permanent magnets, and then they hit a sticky-spot.
one way of looking at this is: it should be possible use the additional work of gravity, applied in a consistent and unbalanced fashion, on a vertical propellor to acquire the work necessary to overcome the sticky-spot.
another way of looking at it is: using the work of magnets and gravity, applied in a consistent and unbalanced fashion, should be able to overcome the frictional forces that stop a propellor from turning endlessly.
1. the use of the repelling force of the lower-left static magnet to decrease the work done by gravity on the left side.
2. the use of the repelling force of the lower-left static magnet to decrease the work done by gravity left side by shifting the center-of-gravity from the left to the right side of the axle.
SHIELDING
=========
magnetic shielding must be a magnetic material so that the magnetic fields get trapped in the material. if you take a sheet of steel, you will notice magnets will stick to each side regardless of their polarity. but if the shielding is thin enough, and the magnetic fields strong enough, there should be a balance where similar poles on each side don't repel OR attract because enough of the magnetic field is getting thru the shield to prevent the shield from acting like a magnetic material.
using shielding, it is possible to create highly directional magnetic fields which can do work in very specific directions, and not other directions.
non-magnetic materials act like air - they don't stop magnetic fields whatsoever.
@2b
Thanks for sharing
Good idea
helmut
you've sold me on the idea.... i don't see any 'obvious' problems here, and im willing to give it a try.
seeing as we've hit a "dead end" on the Tri-Force experiments, and there's not really anything new to work on at the moment....
so i guess this will be my new project.
i've made some "adjustments" to the design, to fit my own ideas on the matter. see .jpg below
grey lines are just to mark my center lines... green is supposed to represent the magnetic shielding.
i havent given much thought yet to the "sliding mechanism" of the rotor magnets, if that proves to be necessary.
Hi all ive thought simler to this and im glad some of you are trying it cos i dont really have the tools or things to do so, i dont want to be negative but on the right side when the magnet is being pulled up it will get stuck in attraction mode to the external magnet , the magnet would then have to weigh so much to break itself free of the attraction and if it does so weigh that much then it would not lift up in the first place.
You mention using sheilding thats a good idea on the left side tho i think if most the thrust makes the magnet go inwards it will be less upwards, and on the right side when the magnet goes into attraction mode what sheilding material would you use? sheilding to my knowledge is usally tin or some other metallic meterial and is mainly to use on like poles cos with like poles the magnets have repulsion + attraction from the tin etc so you get a neutral effect but with opposite poles the magnets have attraction + attraction so you will only get attraction, if there are non metallic meterials used for sheilding what are they?
I dont mean to be negative truley i just thought i would point it out please correct me if im wrong i think it is great what you guys are doing and dont let it put you off the idea still has room to build on.
this tupe of dewices never could work because there are no energy input .
if one piece of something drop down you need energy to put it up agen . you need to breake gravitu if you want get weight back with les energy used. you lose energy not only to move up and down weight but to move horizontaly too . thus is why this grawity pendelum systems not work. and similar is problem with magnetic permamanet motors you need energy tu put something in magnetic field . maybe only real shelding from one direction , holy grail...
only way to achewe overunity it get energy from our only energy suply sun, to rezonate on natural frequencies that all around
sore for my horible english
I have build this exact device and it didnt work.
The repulsion of the lower magnet is bigger then the gain of the shifting weights.
Another thing is that if your give it a good spin, the centrifugal forces stop the magnets from shifting, the just stay on the outside.
Greetings Rene
Quote from: 2b on April 28, 2008, 06:26:49 PM
i have had this idea for quite a while, and though i haven't read every post made by everyone, i have read 100's of related posts but never saw this idea, and was wondering if anyone else already knows the 'problems' of such a device. see the attached JPG.
basically, the propeller or wheel spins clockwise. as shown, at the top of the image, the outer static magnet will pull the cylindrical magnet up the spoke somewhat, while at the same time, at the bottom of the image, the outer static magnet will push the cylindrical magnet up the spoke somewhat; keeping the right side of the propeller/wheel over-weighted. stainless steel can be used to shield magnetic fields when like poles are coming at each other, or when opposite poles are leaving each other; and gravity adds energy to the right-side over-weighted propeller/wheel, and the lower outside magnet boosts the magnet on the spoke inwards and upwards.
it seems to me that if everything was arranged properly, and any necessary shielding was used properly, the 'magnetic bessler wheel' should work, because there are more forces acting to make the propeller/wheel spin clockwise than the total number of forces that are in opposition.
i don't have the material at this time to try it, but if i did, i would, and i will when i can - but i thought i'd share this in case anyone does have the materials. just a good chop-stick, a nail, and 2 cylindrical magnets, and 2 bar magnets.
I think you also will figure out how it suppose to go counter clockwise too. There is no force more in one direction than the other direction, so it will not run.
Or simply put: Magnetmotors simply do not work due to the nature that permanent magnets are - yes permanently magnetized. They do work only if the magnetism in them change - and who is doing that? Energy!
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: Spider on April 30, 2008, 06:30:10 AM
I have build this exact device and it didnt work.
The repulsion of the lower magnet is bigger then the gain of the shifting weights.
Another thing is that if your give it a good spin, the centrifugal forces stop the magnets from shifting, the just stay on the outside.
Greetings Rene
x2. I too built this exact arrangment and it doesn't work.
Hi All
Yes I was about to say before someone else did that it wouldn't work because the repoltion would be to strong, there is a way you can use the Trigate with a gravity design and thats if you have 8 arms and a weight on each arm except one, the weight will be the Trigates roller magnet, you have the Trigate setup from 11 to 12:30 when a arm gets to 11 it drops a roller off the roller moves along to 12:30 and drops onto the arm that had no roller the moves the arm down to 1 and the opposite arm up to 11 where it drops the next roller onto the Trigate and the system starts again, its only moving from 12 to 1 every turn but its moving and should keep moving aslong as there is no magnetic interfearance.
Take Care All
Graham
if i understood what he was saying....
the strength/distance of the stator magnets would be such that is was strong enough to 'slide' the magnet towards the outside of the arm, but not strong enough to pull the mass of the wheel to a stop.
the shielding was not so much to prevent repulsion/attraction, but rather to direct that repulsion + attraction along the radial-line of the 'arm'. offsetting the balance of the wheel, while allowing gravity to pull the wheel in the direction of rotation
> you've sold me on the idea.... i don't see any 'obvious' problems here, and im willing to give it a try. seeing as we've hit a "dead end" on the Tri-Force experiments, and there's not really anything new to work on at the moment....
wow - great. i am an aeronautical engineer - not that it applies much, but i will try to be helpful if possible. i have some magnets - but not cylinders, and i don't use credit cards, and i am dealing with other things right now, so it is a project on hold for me right now, but i will offer whatever support i can, and i will try to clarify the forces involved in case it helps.
Quote from: Rusty_Springs on May 01, 2008, 01:25:04 AM
Hi All
Yes I was about to say before someone else did that it wouldn't work because the repoltion would be to strong, there is a way you can use the Trigate with a gravity design and thats if you have 8 arms and a weight on each arm except one, the weight will be the Trigates roller magnet, you have the Trigate setup from 11 to 12:30 when a arm gets to 11 it drops a roller off the roller moves along to 12:30 and drops onto the arm that had no roller the moves the arm down to 1 and the opposite arm up to 11 where it drops the next roller onto the Trigate and the system starts again, its only moving from 12 to 1 every turn but its moving and should keep moving aslong as there is no magnetic interfearance.
Take Care All
Graham
graham, i can picture this in my head. WoW! if only we had discovered the Tri-Force BEFORE the chas campbell wheel, seems like this could have been the 'missing' component...
You should visit that thread and get an idea for his wheel design - its pretty much what you described - minus the tri-gate. it didnt work of course,. but it also didnt have a magnetic gate-array helping it along..
Hi sm0ky2
I just can't see how it would get past the repelling magnet,ofcause you know balanced magnets cancel each other out so if the attraction was equel to the repultion both top and bottom magnets will come together but in this case there not equel because both magnets on the arms are down so the repultion comming in is at its strongest and the attraction comming in is at its weakest, as I see it both magnets would have to be lifted before they get to the repelling magnet stage and this would give you stonger attraction but then you have the draw back by the attracting magnet being at its strongest comming out holding the arm up.
I agree with you sm0ky2 in the case of 20th june, how can you move a weight from 7 to 1 with out using more energy, well there is one way I can think of and thats using some gas lighter the air, you have two containers on a rotating arm one full the other empty the full one will drop to the bottom of the rotation, you open a valve that lets the gas run through a tube up to the top container this makes the top one heavier and the rotor rotates half a turn as long as you close the valve once the top ones full, the you open the valve again the the process starts again, if you had a system that opens and shuts the valve at the right time I can't see how it wouldn't work but I think it would be very slow.
I have also did some tests on comming up into my Trigate and found for the Trigate system to work as a gravity wheel like I said in my last post you have to set the gate up so the last magnet comming in is at 9 and the last one going out is at 3 this means the magnets moving up to 11 will start attracting in at 9 and the magnets going out will be repelling from 1 to 3, this means no repel back comming in and no draw back going out, also with the attract in you maybe able to level out the track and drop the magnet off at 1 instead of 12:30 meaning no movment uphill.
Sorry I went on a bit Take Care All
Graham
> you've sold me on the idea ...
YES! I CAN SEE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND!!!
i tried to describe all the forces involved, but it started to take several hours!!! there's a lot going on for such a simple device. gravitational, centrifical, weight/momentum, magnetic - lots of forces. but it is much easier if you can see it in your head.
things of note, which you have seen:
1. the lower-left static magnet should be more powerful than the upper-right static magnet. as the lower cylindrical magnet passes the lower-left static magnet, the "bump" of the repelling forces to the upper-right actually works on both cylindrical magnets, since the cylindrical magnets oppose each other on the spoke. the "bump" also works against gravity in moving the lower-left cylindrical magnet against gravity in rotation, and against the magnetic attraction at the upper-right as the cylindrical magnet leaves the static magnet.
2. stainless steel shielding, especially to the right of the lower-left static magnet, will actually ATTRACT the oncoming cylindrical magnet, whereas, normally it would be repelled, opposing CW revolution.
3. the "bump" that shifts the cylindrical magnets on the spoke should shift them at least half-way up the spoke (toward the upper-right).
4. it would be good to have the spoke well greased, and made of wood or something so as to not interfere with the magnetic fields.
it's tricky, but no matter how i look at it, i keep seeing that the forces favoring CW revolution can be made to outweight the forces opposing CW revolution. it is almost like a vertical axis wind-turbine - except you have gravity working on one side, and magnetic forces (anti-gravity) working on the other side.
> Hi all ive thought simler to this and im glad some of you are trying it cos i dont really have the tools or things to do so, i dont want to be negative but on the right side when the magnet is being pulled up it will get stuck in attraction mode to the external magnet , the magnet would then have to weigh so much to break itself free of the attraction and if it does so weigh that much then it would not lift up in the first place.
you are not taking into account the CW momentum - the cylindrical magnets don't have to get shifted more than 1/2 up the spoke in the upper-right direction, at which time, their momentum carries them on in a CW direction. it is probably something that will only work at a certain steady-state RPM.
> You mention using sheilding thats a good idea on the left side tho i think if most the thrust makes the magnet go inwards it will be less upwards
yes, there is a balance to be achieved. there are many factors - the shielding, the magnet positioning, sizes/strengths of the magnets, the speed of the spoke and related forces, etc. it is only important that the cylindrical magnets get shifted passed the half-way point on the spoke.
> and on the right side when the magnet goes into attraction mode what sheilding material would you use?
at the upper-right, you would only have worry about shielding as the cylindrical magnet leaves the static magnet - but this is less important than the shielding on the lower-left static magnet.
the lower-left static magnet has much more work to do than the upper-right static magnet.
> sheilding to my knowledge is usally tin or some other metallic meterial and is mainly to use on like poles cos with like poles the magnets have repulsion + attraction from the tin etc so you get a neutral effect but with opposite poles the magnets have attraction + attraction so you will only get attraction, if there are non metallic meterials used for sheilding what are they?
stainless steel plates used as shielding act as stainless steel - they negate the effect of poles and make similar poles "attract" - because both similar poles are just attracted to the steel. shielding has to be a magnetic material to trap the field. i can see the person with the diagram understands these things very well.
> i havent given much thought yet to the "sliding mechanism" of the rotor magnets, if that proves to be necessary.
i think i would just use those cylinder wood sticks they sell at hardware stores - sand them and grease them and put a nail thru the center. they are like long chop-sticks.
> this tupe of dewices never could work because there are no energy input .
it isn't a matter of "energy", it is a matter of work, Force x Distance, and there are a lot of things doing work here. energy is either potential or kinetic - it is the outcome, not the predecessor.
you have gravity doing work on the right side, and magnetic repulsion (anti-gravity) doing work on the left side. the trick is to not allow any work to overpower the work of those forces.
> if one piece of something drop down you need energy to put it up agen.
yes, the lower-left static magnet - it is "anti-gravity".
> you need to breake gravitu if you want get weight back with les energy used. you lose energy not only to move up and down weight but to move horizontaly too.
no - you gain energy due to the work of the lower-left static magnet, which serves to do the major work of shifting the cylindrical magnets, as well as doing some anti-gravity work to boost the cylindrical magnet on the left side up ...
> thus is why this grawity pendelum systems not work. and similar is problem with magnetic permamanet motors you need energy tu put something in magnetic field.
yes, the work done by gravity on the right side, along with the attraction of the shielding on the lower-left static magnet, serve to get the lower cylindrical magnet into the magnetic field of the lower-left static magnet.
> I have build this exact device and it didnt work. The repulsion of the lower magnet is bigger then the gain of the shifting weights.
it doesn't sound like you used shielding.
> Another thing is that if your give it a good spin, the centrifugal forces stop the magnets from shifting, the just stay on the outside.
that is a factor - it depends on the RPM and the weights and the magnetic attractions, etc. i would say that this device will only work at a certain RPM, but it will strive to maintain that RPM even after a load is attached.
> There is no force more in one direction than the other direction, so it will not run.
sure there is - there is more work done by gravity on the right side than the left side - so long as the cylindrical magnets are shifted more than 1/2 way up the spoke as they align themselves with the static magnets.
> Or simply put: Magnetmotors simply do not work due to the nature that permanent magnets are - yes permanently magnetized.
it isn't a magnet motor, it is a magnet-based gravity Bessler Wheel.
Wow, this is so cool. I had the very same idea ever since I seen some examples on youtube of various sorts.
This looks like the same sort of idea
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xi7haprAEvA
I really like this one too.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LRRzVHLs4bU&feature=related
It does seem like it would work well...
There are a number of them all resulting in the idea of an unbalanced wheel. Looking forward in seeing some results from the experiment! ;D
> the strength/distance of the stator magnets would be such that is was strong enough to 'slide' the magnet towards the outside of the arm, but not strong enough to pull the mass of the wheel to a stop.
right, and the cylindrical magnets only have to move about half-way up the spoke toward the upper right - not all the way - just enought to let gravity do an excess of work on the right side.
> the shielding was not so much to prevent repulsion/attraction, but rather to direct that repulsion + attraction along the radial-line of the 'arm'. offsetting the balance of the wheel, while allowing gravity to pull the wheel in the direction of rotation
right, although the shielding on the lower-left static magnet actually ATTRACTS the oncoming cylindrical magnet in favor of CW revolution, and then all cylindrical magnets get a big 'boost' to the upper-right as the cylindrical magnets align with the static magnets. so, there is only about 1-2 degrees of magnetic repulsion opposing the CW rotation as the magnets pass each other on the lower-left. keep in mind, the cylindrical magnets oppose each other, so the effect of the lower-left static magnet shifts both cylindrical magnets, so i think it should be the most powerful. it also does anti-gravity work in pushing the cylindrical magnet on the left upwards.
Wait, you should never be "PULLING" these magnets, they should always be pushed.
From the bottom side they are being pushed, this same technique should be used at the top side.
Therefore the magnet array should start near the ceter and gradually push outwards.
Quote from: Rusty_Springs on May 01, 2008, 01:25:04 AM
Hi All
Yes I was about to say before someone else did that it wouldn't work because the repoltion would be to strong, there is a way you can use the Trigate with a gravity design and thats if you have 8 arms and a weight on each arm except one, the weight will be the Trigates roller magnet, you have the Trigate setup from 11 to 12:30 when a arm gets to 11 it drops a roller off the roller moves along to 12:30 and drops onto the arm that had no roller the moves the arm down to 1 and the opposite arm up to 11 where it drops the next roller onto the Trigate and the system starts again, its only moving from 12 to 1 every turn but its moving and should keep moving aslong as there is no magnetic interfearance.
Take Care All
Graham
Hi Graham,
Im sorry I cant quite visualize what you are saying, any chance of a little diagram.
> Wait, you should never be "PULLING" these magnets, they should always be pushed.
yes, i think that is an excellent point. there many ways to think of arranging things, possibly just using powerful shielded magnets on the left side.
you could even use a powerful cylindrical magnet for an axle, keeping the diameter of the wheel within reason. have the poles along the length of the cylinder - with N facing the lower-left, and S facing the upper-right.
it would be good to have a magnetic foil for shielding.
Nice animation above, exactly what I pictured.
Analysing it, I realized that having the cylinders come so close to one another in the center may not work. Too much potential magnetism there.
Keep the cylinders further out from the center.
btw, I've experimented with cylinders and rods before. The best configuration I found was to use aluminium knitting needles. They work great. They fit on the needles like they were meant to go there. I got the magnets from magcraft. Just pick one up and take it to the knitting store and buy a bunch of them for the spokes. ;D
> The best configuration I found was to use aluminium knitting needles. They work great.
they might cause a slight problem because they will resist magnets sliding on them just as a copper-wire wound coil resists spin in a magnetic field. when you have a magnetic field moving thru a conductor, it generates a current and electro-magnetic fields that will resist that motion. it's actually quite strong - if you drop a cylindrical magnet down a 3ft metallic rod, to the best of my memory, the magnet will almost stop from the current induced electro-magnetic fields.
the best method of "shielding" that i have experimented with is multiple plates. (steel,iron, ect)
at least 2 plates, separated by 1-2mm air gap works great. this is used in the outer casing of Microwaves,
and that is also a perfect source for this type of shielding, it can be cut and bent to fit any design.
there are tons of old microwaves junked daily.
first plate redirects the lines of flux within the metal, the secondary (and subsequent plates) consume the stray flux radiating from the sides of the first plate. leaving you with NO magnetic fluxuation outside the plates.
(that is, assuming you do not achieve satturation with the field strength vs. plate-mass)
@ 2B - what you would have to do to counter that type of "back EMF" is to use a magnetic mass larger than the mass of the 'rod'. this will cause the rod to satturate long before the repulsive force fully counters the downward motion. using aluminum needles is probably a good place to start. would work better than say.. Brass, or some denser metals.
Yes, you're correct about the flux resistance. I didn't experience any on the needles, perhaps they're not aluminium, they could be carbon fiber, but I didn't think they'de bother using that for knitting.
Something interesting to try, take a few cylinder magnets, place them opposites on the needle and flick one... The rest bounce around until they settle, they make good "shock" absorbers and the motion is very intriguing. If you pull down the second last one from any end and let it go, the rest will pass on the motion and the one at the end will fly off like a rocket. If it has nowhere to go it comes back and the magnets vibrate very fast. I tried using this by placing coils all the way down the shaft. It works a little but the opposite force impedes the vibration.
However, the needles are strong and straight.. I can only assume they are aluminium.
Where did you get cynlider magnets??
thats one of the few types i haven't gotten my hands on..
i actually tried to design a shock absorber like that years ago, but also had solenoid coils around the magnets for generation.
i ended up abandoning it because of an issue whith abrupt jolts,. both generation and absorbtion decays when the magnets are moving quickly.
would work great for slowly going over a speed bump,
but hit a crack in the road at 30mph would be a whole other issue