Hello all.
I have recently taken an interest in magnetic motors and have some designs I want to explore.
Can anyone tell me if there is a material that works to null the effects of two neo magnets being pressed together + to +? In other words, has anyone ever come up with a blocking scheme that would allow the two positive polarities to be pressed close together while the material was between them, and once the material is removed, the magnets repel and work is accomplished?
This scheme would obviously require minimal "magnetic friction" as I call it, so the the shield could easily be moved in and out of place. I have heard about mu metal but, have seen no evidence to support what I am trying to accomplish.
Any advice would be appreciated.
@Originator,
Would U like to try put Tin plate in between the like poles, consider using 3/16 or 1/4 inch thickness.
post yr result if it works or not !
God Bless,
brian
I have been trying tin all afternoon in various arrangements. The tin attracts to the opposing poles, and pulls both towards each other. the thicker the tin, the more closer it gets, at around .25" they both magnets stick to the tin. Below that there is some repulsion still, one side wants to stick, the other wants to stay close. Regardless, the tin attracts the poles, and breaking free of the field negates any work.
So far I have tried cast iron, tin, steel, and see no method to accomplish the goal of interrupting the flux sufficiently to produce an work.
I do not have access to mu metal or lead. I tried experiments shown on youtube using tin and spacers wrapped around both magnets to get a 'one way' effect, but did not even get close to what the the guy demonstrated.
My goal is to use a shield to act as a switch while the machine pushes the magnets together + to + in a linear fashion, not going round as I see everyone else trying.
There is no known material to man that can shield magnetic flux without being attracted itself to the magnet.
There isn't any magical things going on with mu-metal.The difference between ordinary iron and mu-metal is simply
that mu-metal needs less magnetizing force to reach the same flux levels as iron in a closed magnetic circuit.
Magnetizing force is a decription on how easy a ferromagnetic core magnetizes. I recommend you to study
B/H curves of metalic alloys. Btw, you cannot shield a magnet. The flux lines are always present, no matter
what you do. When you feel the magnets getting weaker when experimenting with "shields" it is simply the flux
lines getting spread out over a larger area but they always find back to the magnet. They are just re-routed.
In your "device" you should look for "powerful movement" without having to add any energy. At least very little.
The "powerful movement" is must to create torque. And torque x speed = power.
Many devices being used to find OU motors is very weak, in fact so weak they will stop at any load.
And you don't want this. Thrust me, you need raw power. Good luck in your design.
Yes I am learning that you don't get magnet power for free! Maybe there are some tricks out there, but they aren't so easy to figure out.
Here is my concept. Two magnets are attached to a flywheel with rods, like pistons in a combustion engine. I am only showing one section, there could be numerous sections, in various phases.
The drawing is just the idea, I can't draw things accurately with this software.
The shield is "Down" (enabled) when the "piston" is approaching the stationary magnet with like polarity, allowing the piston magnet to get close to the stationary magnet without resistance.
A gear driven platform that contains multiple shields spins around in sync to position the shields in place as needed.
When the piston is closest to the stationary mag, the shield moves out of the way allowing the opposing forces to perform work, pushing the piston away. One piston is always pushing the other piston, back and forth motion. There could be the same configuration for attraction pistons as well, so that there is always push and pull on the flywheel.
The rotating platform would likely be above the entire system, not below as shown for simplicity of the drawing.
I think that unless there is some clever method that I don't know for interrupting the field enough to allow the piston to approacg, my idea is futile.
Sorry, but you can't make a self runner without returning energy from the output shaft to overcome any sticky spots.
If your goal is finding overunity you should totaly focus on the magnetic wankel. If your goal is mainly to fiddle around
while trying to find another way to make a self runner, then please go ahead and give it your best shoot.
You can have plenty of torque within a magnetic motor while it turns around and finally stops at the sticky spot.
But you need to harvest this torque (energy) while it's present during the rotation before stopping.
People seem to forget that the available power is lost if not taken care of by a shaft connected generator.
It won't continue to spin by it's own if not helped past the "rough passages".
@Originator
If you're serious about making a shield then here's a patent that hasn't been tried by anyone here:
http://www.rexresearch.com/wadle/wadle.htm
tak
Tak22
I scanned over the patent, but do not have enough knowledge to have an opinion.
If anyone else would care to look at it and comment on it's viability as a shield, that would be welcome to all I am sure.
Thanks for the link.
Quote from: tak22 on September 08, 2008, 10:38:48 PM
http://www.rexresearch.com/wadle/wadle.htm
If this so called shield works just as we would like it to, then perhaps we could make a pure magnet motor.
But I strongly disbelive the properties of this new "shield". It seems kind of weak.
I believe it can't handle the strong DC flux from close perimeter permanent magnet.
They talk specifically about shielding errant stray fields. This is very weak flux levels. Presumably AC flux.
There is no info about being able to shield static strong flux from permanent magnets.
Originator's motor is reminiscent of John Ecklin (Echlin). You might try a coil in between the Neos
with an adjustable voltage. This is a method used by Charles Flynn here (page 42 of 48):
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter1.pdf
The coil appears to cause rotation, and might be useful for you..
Paul.
Honk is correct, there isn't enough info in the Wardle/May patent to show how their shield will react with strong magnets.
The point I was making is that if you are serious about shielding, then you are going to have to look deep for things
that are not obvious. Virtually every 'common' material and combination has been tried over and over again by many
hopeful inventors. If a magic shield is possible it's going to be found in a pretty dark corner.
So maybe someone needs to get the coal slag, silver powder, silica powder, calcium, magnesium, zinc powder,
mix up a batch of super shield, and find out if this patent has any merit?
tak
I was looking at the various parts to mix together, seems most of that stuff is available readily on the internet. I have a hard time buying into to it after all the stuff I have tried already.
Last night I recalled that I had a jar of lead solder paste(ground up lead in a jar with some solution to hold it together as paste) that I use on SMT PCB's. I built a little rectangle with the paste into a block .5" x 2" x 4", and tested with neo's, saw no result.
I may experiment with building a thin flat coil to act as a shield. Set up a timing scheme using microprocessor to pulse the coil at precise timing based on an encoder on a shaft. When the 'piston' is approaching, engage the coil to cause it to attract the piston, then either reverse the polarity when the piston is at it's closest or just allow the two opposing poles to repel the piston.
I have observed that holding two magnets in position opposing each other, so that some pressure is felt, and then while holding the magnets is steady position while sliding one of the magnets inside a 2" round metal tube (I think it is tin tube, it attracts), the magnets are allowed to be pressed closer together, as both magnets are attracting to the metal at the same time, there may be some trick to explore here.
Attached is a drawing, please test if you want to see if there is any usefulness, maybe even using two round tubes simultaneously will have an effect. The thing is, if one magnet gets closer to the tube, it wants to stick to it, then the other magnet wants to slide over and stick to the tube. If all magnets are held in position precisely, perhaps there is a method to use the effect.
Well spoken!
Quote from: tak22 on September 09, 2008, 12:17:21 PM
Honk is correct, there isn't enough info in the Wardle/May patent to show how their shield will react with strong magnets.
The point I was making is that if you are serious about shielding, then you are going to have to look deep for things
that are not obvious. Virtually every 'common' material and combination has been tried over and over again by many
hopeful inventors. If a magic shield is possible it's going to be found in a pretty dark corner.
So maybe someone needs to get the coal slag, silver powder, silica powder, calcium, magnesium, zinc powder,
mix up a batch of super shield, and find out if this patent has any merit?
tak
Check this out:
http://www.fdp.nu/dualpistondevice/default.asp
I find it myself a very interesting idea but I have seen no recorded replication of it.
I think two big question arise here;
Is the attraction to the shield less powerful than the repulsion of the two magnets?
Is sliding the shield up and down through the magnetic field like that easier than you had you to make it go left and right?
I prefer the first idea more because it's easier. You could make a round cylinder case with gaps on it's side to do what is illustrated.
Here's an edit of your image to make it more clear...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fziosproject.com%2FNJ%2Fmag1.PNG&hash=ce3da6661eaf1bc662f5926d5f4e98df7bd058d2)
Quote from: broli on September 09, 2008, 02:56:55 PM
Check this out:
http://www.fdp.nu/dualpistondevice/default.asp
I find it myself a very interesting idea but I have seen no recorded replication of it.
I think two big question arise here;
Is the attraction to the shield less powerful than the repulsion of the two magnets?
Is sliding the shield up and down through the magnetic field like that easier than you had you to make it go left and right?
I prefer the first idea more because it's easier. You could make a round cylinder case with gaps on it's side to do what is illustrated.
Hey they stole my ideas!
Thanks for posting that, basically identical to what I wanted to do. The bottom movie shows that it works, but why has it not gone into production if it works as simple as that? One image mentions mu metal.
That video has way too little information to conclude that. But like I said I have seen no "active" replications at all.
The only way to know is to build it. Ofcourse if you have a magnetic neutral shield that blocks magnetic flux then that's an instant winner. I always wondered what would happen if you used this shielding on it;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c
Or to even put those directly on a wheel as is.
QuoteI think two big question arise here;
Is the attraction to the shield less powerful than the repulsion of the two magnets?
Is sliding the shield up and down through the magnetic field like that easier than you had you to make it go left and right?
When the one magnet is dead center of the 2" diameter tin circle, there is a neutral effect, it is equally attracted to all 'sides' of the tin circle.
When you move the magnet in any direction towards the tin, there is strong attraction, which will negate any benefit. Therefor the magnet must be maintained in the center of the tin, in my opinion so far.
When both magnets are outside the tin, and within 1 inch of each other with North facing North, there is repulsion. However when maintaining the the same distance from each other, and sliding the magnets into the tin, the repulsion 'fades'. The magnet inside the tin must be in the center of the tin.
I need a smaller tin circle to test with, as in this case, the magnet must be in the center of the tin to work the idea, and therefor the magnets are too far apart to get full use of the repulsive force. Perhaps some paying around with cutting slots in the tin, or drilling holes to alter the flux may be worth a try.
Quote from: broli on September 09, 2008, 03:31:39 PM
I always wondered what would happen if you used this shielding on it;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c
Or to even put those directly on a wheel as is.
I spent hours trying to duplicate that Youtube video already, but apparently have not done it correctly.
Some have asked the man to show a video of him creating that shield, but he has not done so.
Quote from: Originator on September 09, 2008, 03:35:00 PM
I spent hours trying to duplicate that Youtube video already, but apparently have not done it correctly.
Some have asked the man to show a video of him creating that shield, but he has not done so.
You could always try and contact him on this forum. He has his own nick and thread...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4528.msg124474;topicseen
But as you can see at the bottom of that the story ends with an undisclosed "secret". ::).
Quote from: Originator on September 07, 2008, 10:03:01 PM
Can anyone tell me if there is a material that works to null the effects
of two neo magnets...
You could try a curved piece of ferrous material to guide the magnetic effect out of the way:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3979.0.html
Look for the "symmetric gradient field stator"
Paul.
I notice some shielding effect on my microwave door. The door is glass over a pattern of holes drilled in some type of painted metal. The magnet is attracted to the door, however if the magnets are held at the same distance from the door, there is a neutral zone that allows closer proximity with less force than without the door in between.
Maybe the holes are the trick. Can anyone else test on their microwave doors to see if there is any shielding effect?
JamesRoy, on U-Tube, has videos on shielding which I've found intriguing enough to look into. If he's here in these forums please let me know how to contact him. 8)
To me, it's not about making a magic wall that completely blocks all effects of magnetism. It's more about redirecting or reshaping the magnetic field in such a way that a magnet motor could run without having to add electricity to an electromagnet in order to get past a sticking point or gate.
For instance, would it be possible to drill angled holes in a thicker shield to "direct" the magnetic field from the magnet behind the shield? Also, I like using the shield to attract the stator and having an opposing magnet behind it. In theory, once the magnets have passed each other, they should repel each other and turn the motor. Maybe it's about getting the thickness of the shield correct so that the attraction is enough to bring the opposing magnets toward each other far enough that when they finally do repel each other they keep the motor going in the direction it's supposed to be going.
Or, if a shield can be used to drastically reduce the repulsion encountered once the motor has come full circle, it might be possible to get the stator back into the starting point.
One thing is for certain. I haven't seen nearly the work done on shields that I have on the magnet motors themselves.
Hi,
James Roney is a member here too :D See his thread: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4528.0.html
I think your way of thinking on the role of shielding is correct. By covering one side of a permanent magnet with a highly permeable material (like with transformer laminates or permalloy or soft iron pieces etc) the flux gets more or less confined and guided mainly in the shield while the opposite side of the same magnet remains open hence the flux over there though also changes can remain stronger. James nicely shows this in his videos.
I also believe that using such partially covered magnets in a suitable arrangement as rotor - stator components a magnetic motor can be built. Maybe James has been on such setup since his videos...
rgds, Gyula
James Roy hasn't posted on this site for a few months. I PM'd him. We'll see if he gets back to me.
If a magnet in repel mode can be "aimed" through shielding I don't see why a permanent magnet couldn't replace an electromagnet in the magnet motors that are up and working now. Might be a matter of hitting the sticking point with just enough repulsion to break the attraction loose, or at least weaken it enough that other stators pushing rotation can overcome what's left of the sticking point's effect.
These motors are very close to both working and being capable of useful work, like generating electricity. We've just got to stay with it for a bit longer.
Have a nice day..................[/b]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwYeHv_JEw
Wildbill, thank you for sharing that video. Perfectly explained with one view.
Yes, there is something to this shielding effect and it can and will help to make a magnet motor run, I believe.
I'm currently working on an array that I believe will work without any added energy aside from the magnets themselves. And shielding the gate will be of use to me in this venture. No, I will not be relying totally on the shielding effect as my stators will be going around the gate. But reducing the magnetic field around the gate will definitely help me get around that gate. It will mean the stator will not have to go so far away from the gate as it passes, which will reduce the amount of movement my stator makes and that will help the drum to turn easier.
I just wanted to say that I've been looking at these magnet motors for over a year now and people who have posted videos on the net are the main reason I've gotten as far as I have toward understanding magnet motors and the obstacles that make it difficult to make them work continuously. And I'm not just talking about the successes or people showing techniques like the one Wildbill posted, though they are every bit as important for my learning as other videos. Believe it or not, it was the so-called failures that taught me the most; those magnet motors that hung up at the sticking point or gate. I thank God for those folks out there who were brave enough, cared enough, to post their experiments for all to see and learn from. If ANYONE gets a magnet motor to work that individual will owe quite a lot to each and every video and post about magnet motors he or she has ever seen or read, IMHO. So, for all those folks who are working toward this concept and shared their information freely, I thank you.
If I'm successful no one will need to wonder how it works. I absolutely intend to give it away as fast as I can in a DIY fashion. I'd imagine you all here would be among the first to replicate it, get the word about it out there on the net, and hopefully improve it. These magnet motors belong to the people, both living today and future generations. And that's exactly where I want this invention to wind up; with the people. For that to happen there can be no patents and mass manufacturing, at least until it is well established and considered public knowledge. No suppression this time around! It absolutely has to be a DIY product made from off the shelf parts and easily assembled at home following assembly instructions, a complete parts list, printable magnet pattern to replicate the arrays, and a cover letter urging people to photocopy the information and pass it along to others free of charge. Can you all see a future where power is cheap and easy to obtain no matter what country you live in or how much or little money you make? I can. And I hope you all can as well.
Thanks Wild Bill, very interesting
I wrote James Rooney a few times but no response. Actually, I tried to build the same thing but was unsuccessful, obviously the spacing is the magic trick. I will try it again now that I see your spacing.
In the concept above I posted, whereas the shield is a separate section from both magnets, I am trying to come up with a solution using the shielding from the video, but I do believe that you MUST cover 5 sides of the rectangle to get the full effect of shielding shown in Wildbills video. Perhaps a shield that covered 6 sides, and allowed for the shield to be moved out of place would work, I will test it.
The main problem will be the force required to remove the 'stickiness' of the shield to allow for the opposing forces to work.
Quote from: Originator on September 23, 2008, 10:03:02 PM
The main problem will be the force required to remove the 'stickiness' of the shield to allow for the opposing forces to work.
The thing to experiment with is just that. The main question would be is the force of two magnets facing to attract each other the same as the force they exert on the shield. The magnetic piston (http://www.fdp.nu/dualpistondevice/default.asp) idea is the best one in this regard as it slides in an out and should technically minimize this force.
Well, I haven't had time yet to test WildBills video shield. But the question I have is, what purpose does that particular shielding method serve anyway? You still have to get two magnets into position where some work can be done. The fact that one side of the magnets seems shielded does not translate into potential work from what I can tell. Therein lies the same issue with all other designs, which is, to put the magnets into a potential state requires the same amount of work as is released.
The only way to get work is to position two magnets into a potential state of power, where energy can be released, whereas once the shield is removed, the potential is realized: movement takes place. The trick is, moving the shield into and out of position with less energy than is being produced. This is obvious of course.
The two magnets that are shielded as shown in Wildbills vid, still does not explain a method by which the magnets can be exploited for power.
Many people have seen these shielding vids on youtube, but still there is no exploitation of that shielding trick, at least not publicly.
If your serious about this, these are my best findings (( please keep in my mind I'm not right in the head ;) ;)), there are alot more qualified people here to help you, there just not posting on a really old subject)). Lets pretend I have 1 inch long neos by .5 thick. The "power is within that one inch of eachother". The best shielding material results I have had within this distance is this.,, 75% aluminum 6061, and 25 % depleted uranium. My advice to you is to not worry about sheilding, ( it's not gonna happen, or at least , I'm not gonna make it happen) worry about shaping, or a combo. Now with that said, read up on thermodynamics, and rest your magnetic laurels on that. What i mean is the only available power in any magnet arrangement is the difference in pull to push, think hot and cold. If you take two neos and put them in attraction at excatly .5 iches apart, and they pull at 22 pounds, then you flip them over and they repulse at a different number at the same excact distance, then that is your available potential in the magnets minus mechanical setup, now with that in mind, every magnet is like a snowflake, it will push and pull in micro farads when dealing with small neos, this is a '"tuners" nightmare for a self runner. Hope this helps, keep it real and have fun, And post ur stuff on the tube, we all vids. Tanks 13
Quote from: X00013 on September 25, 2008, 05:17:44 PM
What i mean is the only available power in any magnet arrangement is the difference in pull to push, think hot and cold.
Would not the shielding in Wildbills video accomplish just this type of variance between push and pull?
You could easily tune one side of the magnet with differing spacing as he has shown. Or maybe I am missing what you are describing.
My advice to you is too watch this and the 20 parts after it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3omwHv3Cmog
Somebody tried to make a "Believe Machine"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeaG6bPIPGs&feature=channel_page
:)