Hi all
I have been fascinated by the Voltage amplification that can be achieved by running your current through a Magnet or better a magnetic field.
I confirmed that arcing onto a Magnet will give you a Gain which is reflected through a higher
output voltage on the secondary of a Transformer in this case an Automotive ignition Coil.
I tried various Metal and none Metal Conductors.
For the following experiments I used a half moon Shaped Neo Magnet out of an old HDD which came mounted on a fastening Plate of what I assume is MU Metal as it has no mag. attraction on its opposite side.
The greatest gain comes off the Ends and the center of the lower (shorter) Arch.
One of the Magnets was damaged at the end (Nickel Plating peeled off) and exposed the Neo Material
Although it is off the End where you should have the highest Gain there was no Gain at all when arcing to the mag. Material.
By arcing to the Magnet with the Mu Metal Plate fastened to the pos. end of the Coil I tried the following:
Placing a Canadian Dime, Nickel or Toonie right onto the center ,across the flat Magnet using a tungsten rod as the electrode I was getting a good Spark but somewhat weaker.
Using Aluminum,Silver,Carbon,Graphite as the electrode there was no gain.
Using a thin piece of copper foil that I had peeled off the Carbon Welding Rods I was able to make the thin copper strip vibrate on top of the coin at the centre of the coin which displayed longer and wider arcs. Off to the sides or the Top of the coin I got little arcing.
If I held a Carbon Rod onto the + of the coil and struck it with a Tungsten Electrode there was no Gain
Still holding the Carbon Rod onto the Terminal but arcing the Electrode against the Copper Coating of these Welding Rods (Gauging Rods)I got a bit of Gain not using any Magnet.
It became apparent that the Magnetic Flux was responsible for the Gain and I thought of a way to do that by
subjecting a Reed Switch to the Magnetic flux,thus to have no electrical connection to the magnet at all.
I got a pleasant surprise not only was I able to draw a 5 mm arc from a 12Vdc automotive coil at 3 volt.
There was no need to use a timer or other electronic device to have the contacts within the reed switch vibrate
and of course arc.
Arcing and rapid switching of course raises a havoc with the contacts so I tried to bypass the Contacts with a .33uf cap, although the arcing was lessened the contact just welded together within a second.
I then paralleled the switch with a 27VDC Zener which reduced the Arcing but it reduced the output by more than a half.
The same happens if you are using the south pole of the rod type of Neo Magnet. You must use the north approaching the end of the switch.
I have 50 of these switches so I kept destroying them by trying different approaches. At full 12.6 VDC I drew arcs about 8 mm but the switches would'nt last.Current Limiting and running them at 3 to 6 VDC kind of makes them last a little longer.
I do have a flv Video but I am allowed 100Kb so there is not enough bandwidth to allow me to post it ,Sorry
Professor
You will better use an "normal relais (from car) that can handle over 20 Amperes.
a ignition coil (cra) consume usually 6 tp 10 amps (different)
so an normal read relais will burn his contact fix after shoprt time.
also a 1N4007 is also to week. stronger types you find in comutr supplies
(to remouve) additiionally to the elecrolydt condensor , use in parallel an 0,1mf foil (or block-) condensor
Pese
Quote from: professor on September 13, 2008, 12:12:47 AM
Hi all
I have been fascinated by the Voltage amplification that can be achieved by running your current through a Magnet or better a magnetic field.
I confirmed that arcing onto a Magnet will give you a Gain which is reflected through a higher
output voltage on the secondary of a Transformer in this case an Automotive ignition Coil.
I tried various Metal and none Metal Conductors.
For the following experiments I used a half moon Shaped Neo Magnet out of an old HDD which came mounted on a fastening Plate of what I assume is MU Metal as it has no mag. attraction on its opposite side.
The greatest gain comes off the Ends and the center of the lower (shorter) Arch.
One of the Magnets was damaged at the end (Nickel Plating peeled off) and exposed the Neo Material
Although it is off the End where you should have the highest Gain there was no Gain at all when arcing to the mag. Material.
By arcing to the Magnet with the Mu Metal Plate fastened to the pos. end of the Coil I tried the following:
Placing a Canadian Dime, Nickel or Toonie right onto the center ,across the flat Magnet using a tungsten rod as the electrode I was getting a good Spark but somewhat weaker.
Using Aluminum,Silver,Carbon,Graphite as the electrode there was no gain.
Using a thin piece of copper foil that I had peeled off the Carbon Welding Rods I was able to make the thin copper strip vibrate on top of the coin at the centre of the coin which displayed longer and wider arcs. Off to the sides or the Top of the coin I got little arcing.
If I held a Carbon Rod onto the + of the coil and struck it with a Tungsten Electrode there was no Gain
Still holding the Carbon Rod onto the Terminal but arcing the Electrode against the Copper Coating of these Welding Rods (Gauging Rods)I got a bit of Gain not using any Magnet.
It became apparent that the Magnetic Flux was responsible for the Gain and I thought of a way to do that by
subjecting a Reed Switch to the Magnetic flux,thus to have no electrical connection to the magnet at all.
I got a pleasant surprise not only was I able to draw a 5 mm arc from a 12Vdc automotive coil at 3 volt.
There was no need to use a timer or other electronic device to have the contacts within the reed switch vibrate
and of course arc.
Arcing and rapid switching of course raises a havoc with the contacts so I tried to bypass the Contacts with a .33uf cap, although the arcing was lessened the contact just welded together within a second.
I then paralleled the switch with a 27VDC Zener which reduced the Arcing but it reduced the output by more than a half.
The same happens if you are using the south pole of the rod type of Neo Magnet. You must use the north approaching the end of the switch.
I have 50 of these switches so I kept destroying them by trying different approaches. At full 12.6 VDC I drew arcs about 8 mm but the switches would'nt last.Current Limiting and running them at 3 to 6 VDC kind of makes them last a little longer.
I do have a flv Video but I am allowed 100Kb so there is not enough bandwidth to allow me to post it ,Sorry
Professor
Along the lines of what pese is saying; Use a larger schotky power diode out of used
20Khz-100Khz computer switching supply, as they have better specs. Use a low ESR
electrolytic capacitor out of a used CRT computer monitor. You can bypass the relay
contacts with a very small cap. start with like 40pf. to lower damage of the arc on the
switch contacts. You can use a reverse diode to reroute residual coil b-emf back
emf around the switch contacts. The lower the b-emf impedance the faster the coil magfield
can collapse. A vehicle has to start when it's battery is below optimal battery voltage
so thats why the coil will work well at lower voltages. I can't guarantee that any of the above
will create higher output voltage but they will lessen switch contact damage.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hi Pese
You did not get the jest of the experimentation it was simply to prove a Concept without the use of electronics..Being an Electronic tech all my Life having aprenticed for GRUNDIG , believe me I know.I did not want to use Brute force but achieved a 5 mm arc with 3VDC on a 12VDC Coil. Try to do that with your Relay at 3VDC! The 1N4007 was strictly for isolation and if it can not handle the Back EMF of 3VDC or 90 ma forward current I eat my Hat.
Magnetic Flux creates a larger arc's by being pulled towards the vortex or for better towards the point where the lines meet and as with Tesla's spark gap the bigger the arc the larger the Output,all other thing's relative . Passing a current through a Magnet or Magnetic field does nothing for you.
Try and explain why the contacts chatter when subjected to a north Magnetic field.
I know why,but lets see if you do.
Maybe also take a closer look at the Video on U-tube
Professor
Quote from: pese on September 13, 2008, 04:36:02 AM
You will better use an "normal relais (from car) that can handle over 20 Amperes.
a ignition coil (cra) consume usually 6 tp 10 amps (different)
so an normal read relais will burn his contact fix after shoprt time.
also a 1N4007 is also to week. stronger types you find in comutr supplies
(to remouve) additiionally to the elecrolydt condensor , use in parallel an 0,1mf foil (or block-) condensor
Pese
HiI MarkSCoffman
Look at my answer to Pese that way I need not to repeat myself.
I used from 470pf up to .33uf , MOV's and RC Networks etc and I accomplished to quench arcing caused by the b-emf but also had a major reduction in the output, being something that I did not want. Also it reduced the bounce on the contacts which kept them from welding together. From .01uf on up it caused the contacts to seize Weld together . I do have schottky Diodes no need for them in this application.
The large Capacitor was inserted to protect my Power supply but it was really not needed at 3 or 6 VDC .
Professor
quote author=mscoffman link=topic=5545.msg126160#msg126160 date=1221328833]
Along the lines of what pese is saying; Use a larger schotky power diode out of used
20Khz-100Khz computer switching supply, as they have better specs. Use a low ESR
electrolytic capacitor out of a used CRT computer monitor. You can bypass the relay
contacts with a very small cap. start with like 40pf. to lower damage of the arc on the
switch contacts. You can use a reverse diode to reroute residual coil b-emf back
emf around the switch contacts. The lower the b-emf impedance the faster the coil magfield
can collapse. A vehicle has to start when it's battery is below optimal battery voltage
so thats why the coil will work well at lower voltages. I can't guarantee that any of the above
will create higher output voltage but they will lessen switch contact damage.
:S:MarkSCoffman
[/quote]
Quote from: professor on September 13, 2008, 03:36:01 PM
Hi Pese
You did not get the jest of the experimentation it was simply to prove a Concept without the use of electronics..Being an Electronic tech all my Life having aprenticed for GRUNDIG , believe me I know.I did not want to use Brute force but achieved a 5 mm arc with 3VDC on a 12VDC Coil. Try to do that with your Relay at 3VDC! The 1N4007 was strictly for isolation and if it can not handle the Back EMF of 3VDC or 90 ma forward current I eat my Hat.
Magnetic Flux creates a larger arc's by being pulled towards the vortex or for better towards the point where the lines meet and as with Tesla's spark gap the bigger the arc the larger the Output,all other thing's relative . Passing a current through a Magnet or Magnetic field does nothing for you.
Try and explain why the contacts chatter when subjected to a north Magnetic field.
I know why,but lets see if you do.
Maybe also take a closer look at the Video on U-tube
Professor
I have think about that, if you have "used" this , in must be mad with loer voltages (lower amps.)
If 1n$==/ USING ; EVEN LESS ! AMP: bUT ALSO EN NININDUCTIV KLOCKING CAT 2IS AN MUST!
Fin than you are profi, than we must andersstand togther)
I have worked longer than 40 years with tubes and semiconductors, constructed testequipmenst for them. delivered semiconductors to philips telefunken braun junghans , the last years to china (H.K. and Taiiwan). So its fine
than we can help with so,e knowledge OTHERS. For that ist THIS FORUM best to use.
G.Pese
i am lerning for better english- last times ...)
@mscoffman
jes this parts (shottky 1x10amp and 2x25 amp are to fimd in PC-Power supplies.
the caps that you using are right , so the shortest scare wave , with t(om) ant t(off) rise times are blocked
and can not be lost his power into the wiring or in su
GPplly
Quote from: pese on September 13, 2008, 04:24:18 PM
I have think about that, if you have "used" this , in must be mad with loer voltages (lower amps.)
If 1n$==/ USING ; EVEN LESS ! AMP: bUT ALSO EN NININDUCTIV KLOCKING CAT 2IS AN MUST!
Fin than you are profi, than we must andersstand togther)
I have worked longer than 40 years with tubes and semiconductors, constructed testequipmenst for them. delivered semiconductors to philips telefunken braun rowenta junghans , the last years to china (H.K. and Taiiwan). So its fine than we can help with some knowledge OTHERS. For that ist THIS FORUM best to use.
G.Pese
i am lerning for better english- last times ...)
@mscoffman
jes this parts (shottky 1x10amp and 2x25 amp are to fimd in PC-Power supplies.
the caps that you using are right , so the shortest scare wave , with t(om) ant t(off) rise times are blocked
and can not be lost his power into the wiring or in su
GPplly
Hi Pese
Yes Pese that is what we are here for. Unfortunately there are always those Types (besserwisser) that have me go on a defensive.
Unless you know what their Qualifications or motives are I will always be suspicious.
I am now 66 years of age, its been a long time since I started in electronics by visiting Garbage Dumps in the early 50's and paid a Caretaker with a few Beers to have him put all electronics aside for me.Of course I still remember ECC85 EL84's and later OC45 OC72 etc.
Had a hard time later in life with the Digital aspect,always thought Linear.
I switched into Industrial Electronics and in my first job I worked for International Hydrodynamic's in North Vancouver we build the 2 Man submersibles Pices,Leo and Taurus series for all over the World.
Due to an Injury I retired early and If you don't stay with it you will loose it.I am still playing around with Meyers Water dissociation I think its a worthwhile cause seeing the Gas Prices rise weekly. I have my own thoughts but unless I can prove something I will not post it.
I respect your Knowledge and I hope you can accept my reaction to your first reply.I am also a licensed Radio Amateur here in Canada..
Here is my Link to the Video http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=ZbOWjqRQjws
Professor
Quote from: pese on September 13, 2008, 04:24:18 PM
I have think about that, if you have "used" this , in must be mad with loer voltages (lower amps.)
If 1n$==/ USING ; EVEN LESS ! AMP: bUT ALSO EN NININDUCTIV KLOCKING CAT 2IS AN MUST!
Fin than you are profi, than we must andersstand togther)
I have workes langer tahn 40 years with tubes and semiconductors, constructed testequipmenst for them. delivered semiconoductors to philips telefungen braun junghans , the last years to china (H.K. and Taiiwan). So its fine
than we can help with so,e knowledge OTHERS. For that ist THIS FORUM best to use.
G.Pese
i am lerning for better english- last times ...)
Quote from: professor on September 13, 2008, 05:00:51 PM
Hi Pese
Yes Pese that is what we are here for. Unfortunately there are always those Types (besserwisser) that have me go on a defensive.
Unless you know what their Qualifications or motives are I will always be suspicious.
I am now 66 years of age, its been a long time since I started in electronics by visiting Garbage Dumps in the early 50's and paid a Caretaker with a few Beers to have him put all electronics aside for me.Of course I still remember ECC85 EL84's and later OC45 OC72 etc.
Had a hard time later in life with the Digital aspect,always thought Linear.
I switched into Industrial Electronics and in my first job I worked for International Hydrodynamic's in North Vancouver we build the 2 Man submersibles Pices,Leo and Taurus series for all over the World.
Due to an Injury I retired early and If you don't stay with it you will loose it.I am still playing around with Meyers Water dissociation I think its a worthwhile cause seeing the Gas Prices rise weekly. I have my own thoughts but unless I can prove something I will not post it.
I respect your Knowledge and I hope you can accept my reaction to your first reply.I am also a licensed Radio Amateur here in Canada..
Here is my Link to the Video http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=ZbOWjqRQjws
Professor
Se my profil (here) . i have exactly the samesources an way.
additiomally my fathe and grand father was in same (elektron radio electrinc
working as owner of scmall compnies, I was in fathers radio-repair-shop
since i was 7 jears, and "learning vie working and experimints" I love that
my whole live ...
Gustav PesÃÆ'Ã,©
also "the besserwisser" wil learn... but morelet there quite slowly than others.
You should read up on the TPU maybe somehow your design is modearately related...
guten tag Professor
i'm a mere 'whippersnapper' (but hopefully not a 'besserwisser'!), 10 years your junior, so i'm not going to post my insignificant CV! :)
if you have the time & inclination, i'd be interested to hear what difference the attached circuit (if the contacts still chatter) makes on your spark - and your relay switch contacts
(NB. if HV develops across capacitor, don't continue without taking suitable circuit and personal safety precautions!)
PS - the following suggestion is just a 'shot in the dark' as to the effect of a particular magnetic pole on the reed switch contacts...
the magnet (N) approaches the reed contacts and they close, allowing current to flow through the wire and contacts
IIRC DC current passing through a wire will cause a kind of magnetic monopole, centred on the wire, polarised according to the direction of the current within the wire
i'm guessing that the direction of your current through the switch is such as to cause a South-polarised 'monopole' in the wire & switch contacts, as soon as current flows
the magnet is positioned such that the current-induced 'monopole' then cancels the effect of the field from the externally applied pole and the contacts open
when the contacts open, however, no current flows - so the external pole can now re-influence the reed contacts and they close again
...the cycle repeats
sounds like 'free energy' to me! ;)
regards
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
@professor;
There is a good reason to try to suppress coil primary contact arcing;
My PMM rule of thumb is; "That anything consumed by a process must be considered a
fuel for the process." So if your device is consuming switch contact material it may be
oxidizing it or combining it with nitrogen chemically - you may therefore have an additional
chemical energy source. In a plasma with a magnet and you may have built a miniature
MHD magneto-hydro-dynamic generator. So it may not be that suprising that you are
seeing additional energy. Too bad MHD generation has already been invented and if
the above conclusion is right then you don't have overunity energy. Just unusually fueled,
internal combustion.
web link wikipedia MHD;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator
It reminds me of J.P. Newman's overunity unity patent motor where it kept consuming scotch
tape applied to the commutator. The scotch tape was being consumed by the commutator
and addition energy supplied to run the motor.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Sandy
You are not a whippersnapper but you hit it right on.
One thing I might add that if I approach the switch with a Magnet at 90 Degrees to its axis I can close the switch as you normally would with a Coil around it or for the better it is then called a reed Relay. I do not know wether the switch is in a Vacuum or Gas filled, one would have to try to experiment using an open contact relay. Of course you have to switch it electronically while moving a magnet into the vicinity of the Contacts.Have not tried this yet
The magnetic flux does just what you explained so well and it does something else, which gives rise to the Voltage Amplification .The flux pulls or pushes the spark over a large area of the switch contacts longitudinal, those flashes are quite visible .
If the magnet approaches from 90 degrees there is only a tiny spark and the contact stays closed.
Thanks for the explanation
professor
Quote from: nul-points on September 14, 2008, 02:58:34 AM
guten tag Professor
i'm a mere 'whippersnapper' (but hopefully not a 'besserwisser'!), 10 years your junior, so i'm not going to post my insignificant CV! :)
if you have the time & inclination, i'd be interested to hear what difference the attached circuit (if the contacts still chatter) makes on your spark - and your relay switch contacts
(NB. if HV develops across capacitor, don't continue without taking suitable circuit and personal safety precautions!)
PS - the following suggestion is just a 'shot in the dark' as to the effect of a particular magnetic pole on the reed switch contacts...
the magnet (N) approaches the reed contacts and they close, allowing current to flow through the wire and contacts
IIRC DC current passing through a wire will cause a kind of magnetic monopole, centred on the wire, polarised according to the direction of the current within the wire
i'm guessing that the direction of your current through the switch is such as to cause a South-polarised 'monopole' in the wire & switch contacts, as soon as current flows
the magnet is positioned such that the current-induced 'monopole' then cancels the effect of the field from the externally applied pole and the contacts open
when the contacts open, however, no current flows - so the external pole can now re-influence the reed contacts and they close again
...the cycle repeats
sounds like 'free energy' to me! ;)
regards
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Hallo mscoffman
I was not aiming to achieve any overunity nor to invent something new.
I simply did an experiment and reported it here.
Also you or I can not assume that the Glass envelope is filled with some sort of gas or Vacuum until we check the specs..
Professor
Quote from: mscoffman on September 15, 2008, 12:00:28 PM
@professor;
There is a good reason to try to suppress coil primary contact arcing;
My PMM rule of thumb is; "That anything consumed by a process must be considered a
fuel for the process." So if your device is consuming switch contact material it may be
oxidizing it or combining it with nitrogen chemically - you may therefore have an additional
chemical energy source. In a plasma with a magnet and you may have built a miniature
MHD magneto-hydro-dynamic generator. So it may not be that suprising that you are
seeing additional energy. Too bad MHD generation has already been invented and if
the above conclusion is right then you don't have overunity energy. Just unusually fueled,
internal combustion.
web link wikipedia MHD;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator
It reminds me of J.P. Newman's overunity unity patent motor where it kept consuming scotch
tape applied to the commutator. The scotch tape was being consumed by the commutator
and addition energy supplied to run the motor.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Sandy
I just tried your circuit it does not work unless of course you reverse diode D2 the one across the electrolytic . This diode is reverse biased blocking the current flow.Once reversed the Circuit behaves visually the same. I did not do any gain tests.
professor
Quote from: nul-points on September 14, 2008, 02:58:34 AM
guten tag Professor
i'm a mere 'whippersnapper' (but hopefully not a 'besserwisser'!), 10 years your junior, so i'm not going to post my insignificant CV! :)
if you have the time & inclination, i'd be interested to hear what difference the attached circuit (if the contacts still chatter) makes on your spark - and your relay switch contacts
(NB. if HV develops across capacitor, don't continue without taking suitable circuit and personal safety precautions!)
PS - the following suggestion is just a 'shot in the dark' as to the effect of a particular magnetic pole on the reed switch contacts...
the magnet (N) approaches the reed contacts and they close, allowing current to flow through the wire and contacts
IIRC DC current passing through a wire will cause a kind of magnetic monopole, centred on the wire, polarised according to the direction of the current within the wire
i'm guessing that the direction of your current through the switch is such as to cause a South-polarised 'monopole' in the wire & switch contacts, as soon as current flows
the magnet is positioned such that the current-induced 'monopole' then cancels the effect of the field from the externally applied pole and the contacts open
when the contacts open, however, no current flows - so the external pole can now re-influence the reed contacts and they close again
...the cycle repeats
sounds like 'free energy' to me! ;)
regards
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
hi Professor
> Sandy
You are not a whippersnapper but you hit it right on.
i'm glad to see that i've learnt something as a result of my interest in free energy - even if i don't know anything yet about the construction of auto ignition coils!!
the magnetic effect on the contact spark sounds very interesting indeed - it sounds like you're getting to the very heart of the physical properties of electromagnetism!
i guess from your test with my circuit variation that the Xfr secondary polarisation is fixed by the manufacturing method used
as you can see from my scematic, the circuit is based on the secondary polarisation being such as to give a positive output for a positive input (all with ref. to the Vgnd line)
so the fact that you had reverse D2 to allow secondary current to flow indicates that the coils are not configured in that relationship (and presumably the assembly is not made in such a way as to allow any user modification!)
reversing D2 with your coil allows secondary current to flow & re-establishes the output spark - but now D2 is forward biased with ref. to Vin and so only allows C1 to charge up to the forward-voltage drop of the diode (< 1V)
i certainly wouldn't expect my circuit to work if the secondary is not, or cannot be, polarised as shown in my schematic
what i'd expect to happen (with the secondary polarised as shown) is that:
- C1 would charge from Vin each cycle and pulse the Xfr primary
- D1 should both help minimise switch contact wear and also capture primary coil field-collapse BEMF and add to the energy transferred to the output spark
- C1 would discharge again, ready for next input cycle, as spark current flows in secondary circuit
if all auto ignition coils have the same primary/ secondary polarisation as yours - it won't be possible to see if my circuit variation has any benefits to offer
many thanks for trying out this suggestion
all the best with your experiments
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Sandy,
As far as I am aware most if not all automotive Coils are internally connected in an autotransformer fashion.
Even if your transformer polarization was as shown I think with such a large Capacitor you may run into timing problems.
D2 will conduct through the secondary and transfer any negative going pulses to ground but what happens to the residual + voltage of the large capacitor assuming it does not have enough time to discharge when D2 conducts to ground.
Since the primary has to conduct before there is a Voltage transfer to the secondary absolute nothing can happen.Its like standing on a Carpet and trying to sweep underneath of it, at least that is the way I see it, have no way to troubleshoot it to confirm what I am saying.
I am not an Engineer just a Tech. that has been troubleshooting a lot of poorly engineered Circuits and of course when we find it and submit it to Engineering guess who ALWAYS gets the Credit?
I have worked under Engineers that had a problem holding a Screwdriver let alone were they able to troubleshoot their own design.
Guess you can detect some resentment here, well I have my reasons.
But as far as Designs are concerned I admit I leave that to those that were trained to do just that.
professor
Quote from: nul-points on September 16, 2008, 02:50:57 AM
hi Professor
> Sandy
You are not a whippersnapper but you hit it right on.
i'm glad to see that i've learnt something as a result of my interest in free energy - even if i don't know anything yet about the construction of auto ignition coils!!
the magnetic effect on the contact spark sounds very interesting indeed - it sounds like you're getting to the very heart of the physical properties of electromagnetism!
i guess from your test with my circuit variation that the Xfr secondary polarisation is fixed by the manufacturing method used
as you can see from my scematic, the circuit is based on the secondary polarisation being such as to give a positive output for a positive input (all with ref. to the Vgnd line)
so the fact that you had reverse D2 to allow secondary current to flow indicates that the coils are not configured in that relationship (and presumably the assembly is not made in such a way as to allow any user modification!)
reversing D2 with your coil allows secondary current to flow & re-establishes the output spark - but now D2 is forward biased with ref. to Vin and so only allows C1 to charge up to the forward-voltage drop of the diode (< 1V)
i certainly wouldn't expect my circuit to work if the secondary is not, or cannot be, polarised as shown in my schematic
what i'd expect to happen (with the secondary polarised as shown) is that:
- C1 would charge from Vin each cycle and pulse the Xfr primary
- D1 should both help minimise switch contact wear and also capture primary coil field-collapse BEMF and add to the energy transferred to the output spark
- C1 would discharge again, ready for next input cycle, as spark current flows in secondary circuit
if all auto ignition coils have the same primary/ secondary polarisation as yours - it won't be possible to see if my circuit variation has any benefits to offer
many thanks for trying out this suggestion
all the best with your experiments
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Quote from: nul-points on September 14, 2008, 02:58:34 AM
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
circuit cant work.
Diode 2 is in wromg polarity.
This way only the Cap charge up to +12 Volts ...
ant than no more curren can flow via induction coil (transformner)
Pese
hi Professor
> As far as I am aware most if not all automotive Coils are internally connected in an autotransformer fashion.
ok, that rules out this transformer polarisation then
>Even if your transformer polarization was as shown I think with such a large Capacitor you may run into timing problems.
for my schematic i just re-used the components from your circuit to give you less hassle in trying a different config - selecting a more suitable value is of course always an option :)
> D2 will conduct through the secondary and transfer any negative going pulses to ground
in my variation of the circuit, D2 will conduct in series with the secondary, when the spark strikes, current will flow thro' the diode from ground to the 'undotted' secondary terminal - the diode is just intended to provide some protection against reverse-bias across the capacitor
> but what happens to the residual + voltage of the large capacitor assuming it does not have enough time to discharge when D2 conducts to ground. Since the primary has to conduct before there is a Voltage transfer to the secondary absolute nothing can happen.
my idea was that C1 would get discharged each cycle, as the secondary pulse causes current to flow out of the 'dotted' secondary terminal, across the spark gap, back through both D2 and C1 in parallel to the 'undotted' secondary terminal
hi Gustav
> circuit cant work.
> Diode 2 is in wromg polarity.
> This way only the Cap charge up to +12 Volts ...
> ant than no more curren can flow via induction coil (transformner)
diode D2 is in the same polarisation as the secondary shown in my schematic - it is intended to prevent any reverse polarity appearing across C1 but still pass the main spark discharge current circulating in the secondary branch of the circuit - it is not included to discharge C1, the spark discharge current is intended to do that
i don't have access to an ignition coil at the moment to try out the idea, which is why i asked Professor if he could try it as a variation of his original circuit - however, i've just run the schematic, as shown, on xSPICE and C1 is shown as discharging each cycle, as expected
...however, simulator programs were written by human beings, so they can certainly be wrong!
@all
i think we've established that it's not possible to re-configure the ignition trafo to match the polarisation i've used in my schematic, so that's the end of the road for this idea - thanks for your feedback
all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Using only 6Vdc as Source this Circuit will generate a 12mm spark from a 12Vdc Automotive Coil(Toyota) it will also produce 60 Vdc from a 6Vdc Source at point indicated.
hi professor
thanks for the update - as a matter of interest, do you have an approximate value for the make/break frequency of your reed contact / neo arrangement?
all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
The voltage amplification is coming from the ignition coil, not the reed switch or the magnet. The coil is functioning as an ordinary autotransformer. The voltage output of the secondary is proportional to the time rate of change of the input current to the primary. This effect is called "induction."
The reed switch provides the necessary pulsation or change in the input current, for induction to work. But reed switches arc and have lots of "jitter" which means their timing isn't constant and the rise time of the current surge through them isn't as abrupt as it could be. Induction works better if the rise time is faster, right? Now, the magnet functions to change the switching characteristics of the reed switch (or the arc from the magnet itself) so that the current is "quenched" more crisply, as it were. This provides that high value of dI/dt that drives the induction of the coil to produce higher and higher voltages.
Tesla knew this and experimented with many magnetically-quenched spark gap designs for his coils. You could try a rotary magnetic gap in place of your reed switch, and get really high voltages. I don't know if your ig-coil could take them though.
Another factor that is very important with transformers and coils is frequency and resonance. The construction of the ig-coil is optimized for a certain frequency. And it will have a natural resonance, that probably isn't the same as the optimized frequency. An ig-coil that is operated at resonance usually won't last very long because its internal insulation isn't good enough.
The rotary magnetic gap can be made with variable speed, so you can experiment with the frequency response of your coil setup.
There are also several good solid-state ig-coil drivers out there, some based on MOSFETS and some on other power transistors like the 2n3055.. All of them seek to pulse the primary with as sharp a rise time as possible, for maximum voltage amplification in the secondary.
I have a little Jacob's ladder driven by an ig-coil and a 3055-based pulser, battery operated, that will generate nearly 3 inches of arc at the top of the ladder. It's also very cool to use audio modulation of the oscillator's frequency--then the arc becomes a "singing arc" with amazing fidelity...
Hi Tinsel Koala
Thanks for the reply. If you look back through these Posts you will find that I just wanted to demonstrate High Voltage production without using any electronics.
I was able to get a tremendous greater output than using a 555 driving a TIP41 for instance at
3 to 6 Vdc.
Been there done that.
The use of a solid state circuit for being repetitive with greater reliability, of course you are right, its the only way.
I found the greater the spark which was accentuated by the magnetic flux, the higher the output.
If you remember the old mechanical Point System on Cars, it had a NP Cap. across the Points to reduce the arcing and to suppress RF interference. It often failed but it did not hinder the operation of the Engine.
Of course you can find the resonance of the Coil by driving the base of a low voltage transistor with a function generator until you achieve resonance watching your current drop while the HV increases.
Once known (without Calculus)you can design your Osc. accordingly. I did just that with an Audio Line transformer which provided me that way with 500 Vdc to drive my Strobe. I cant remember , its resonance was somewhere around 7 Khz.
But I doubt that you get much output from a 3055 at 3Vdc,looking at the Specs for a 3055, which was
one of my objectives.
At 3Vdc I tried relay switching without the use of the Magnetic flux field and it produced little of any output.Using the reed I tried to suppress contact arcing, it also suppressed the Voltage output on the secondary. I found the greater the spark the greater the HV at the cost of the contacts.
(60Vcdc) I am aware that it is a function of the collapsing field or back EMF of the Coil and D2 that I am seeing 60Volt Dc being generated.
This Posting was just an addition to something that was left out earlier in my posts.
But I appreciate your feedback, as there may be others that were not aware of your observation that I had left out.
Interesting though about Tesla quenching the Spark Gap. What was his main purpose for that?
professor
Quote from: TinselKoala on September 24, 2008, 11:08:44 AM
The voltage amplification is coming from the ignition coil, not the reed switch or the magnet. The coil is functioning as an ordinary autotransformer. The voltage output of the secondary is proportional to the time rate of change of the input current to the primary. This effect is called "induction."
The reed switch provides the necessary pulsation or change in the input current, for induction to work. But reed switches arc and have lots of "jitter" which means their timing isn't constant and the rise time of the current surge through them isn't as abrupt as it could be. Induction works better if the rise time is faster, right? Now, the magnet functions to change the switching characteristics of the reed switch (or the arc from the magnet itself) so that the current is "quenched" more crisply, as it were. This provides that high value of dI/dt that drives the induction of the coil to produce higher and higher voltages.
Tesla knew this and experimented with many magnetically-quenched spark gap designs for his coils. You could try a rotary magnetic gap in place of your reed switch, and get really high voltages. I don't know if your ig-coil could take them though.
Another factor that is very important with transformers and coils is frequency and resonance. The construction of the ig-coil is optimized for a certain frequency. And it will have a natural resonance, that probably isn't the same as the optimized frequency. An ig-coil that is operated at resonance usually won't last very long because its internal insulation isn't good enough.
The rotary magnetic gap can be made with variable speed, so you can experiment with the frequency response of your coil setup.
There are also several good solid-state ig-coil drivers out there, some based on MOSFETS and some on other power transistors like the 2n3055.. All of them seek to pulse the primary with as sharp a rise time as possible, for maximum voltage amplification in the secondary.
I have a little Jacob's ladder driven by an ig-coil and a 3055-based pulser, battery operated, that will generate nearly 3 inches of arc at the top of the ladder. It's also very cool to use audio modulation of the oscillator's frequency--then the arc becomes a "singing arc" with amazing fidelity...
Hi nul-points
Sorry I do not have that. I don't dare to subject my frequency Counter to those spikes.
I do have a Phillips Scope but its still packed away from our last move.
Also have a Velleman HPS 10 Handheld Scope if I find it I will try to give you that Information.
Being a Mechanical Switch it cant be to high.
I doubt if it is greater than 100 hz.
Thanks for the inquiry Sandy
professor
Quote from: nul-points on September 24, 2008, 01:48:32 AM
hi professor
thanks for the update - as a matter of interest, do you have an approximate value for the make/break frequency of your reed contact / neo arrangement?
all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Hi prof
It sounds like you know what you're doing so I'll mostly shut up. Sorry to have been so pedantic, but sometimes the basics seem to get forgotten around here.
Tesla used the magnets for rapid quenching of the spark in his gaps. He was using so much current thru the gap in his primary circuits that a power arc would tend to form across the gap, even in rotary gaps. So the magnets were used both as electrodes in the gap itself as well as field pieces near the gap. His objective was to achieve rapid quenching, which equates to a sharp hard mallet striking a bell (the resonating coil) rather than a soft padded bit striking the bell. The sharp strike makes the coil ring more purely and strong.
HiTinselKoala
Thanks for the come back.
I have learned something new but that's what we are here for.
I admit I have not read all of Tesla's Literature, as a matter of fact very little of it.
There is not enough time in the Day for that and I am not getting any younger, if you know what I mean.
But what you say makes good sense,I just have not played around with this Tesla Coils.
One Question though, his cores were Air cores and the sparkgap was a rf generator of all frequencies VLF to UHF so did it really matter to have the coil ring more purely and strong, since there was no fundamental frequency and no core to saturate.
This might be a dumb Question but I am not an Engineer and I can not answer this myself.
Build a low voltage tuned spark gap transmitter that is about the extend of it.
Oh yeah a High voltage one because my neighbour refused to turn down the volume of his awful music. Yes it worked!
Lots of TV Flyback work and RF Communications (not by sparkgap Lol...) in my former jobs in the 70's.
I am glad you did not take offense , as so many others do. Sometimes I do write things as I see them without paying to much attention to Diplomacy. English is my second language which complicates things even more.
Thank's for your understanding
professor.
Quote from: TinselKoala on September 24, 2008, 08:05:59 PM
Hi prof
It sounds like you know what you're doing so I'll mostly shut up. Sorry to have been so pedantic, but sometimes the basics seem to get forgotten around here.
Tesla used the magnets for rapid quenching of the spark in his gaps. He was using so much current thru the gap in his primary circuits that a power arc would tend to form across the gap, even in rotary gaps. So the magnets were used both as electrodes in the gap itself as well as field pieces near the gap. His objective was to achieve rapid quenching, which equates to a sharp hard mallet striking a bell (the resonating coil) rather than a soft padded bit striking the bell. The sharp strike makes the coil ring more purely and strong.