With quantum mechanics models telling us that reality is, at best, vague, and likely not at all that which we perceive, I had a discussion with a friend and genuinely smart physicist recently about possible religious ramifications.
Now, don't get me wrong. I genuinely abhor what mainstream religion, as a whole, has done to the concept of God, and the fact that his flock always needs more and more money. Televangelists and even some garden variety bible thumpers have actually made me break out in hives. What specific religious denominations require as matters of faith can be unsettling and matters such as the crusades, the inquisition and the religious wars throughout human history are nothing short of stunning.
Further, the thought of a young earth, (explaining dinosaur remains as God's way to test faith, for instance), that the bible is proof of God's word, (when it was written by humans - and re-assembled by King James), or the concept of a 'hands-on' God, intervening in the individual lives and destinies of nearly seven billion humans on a daily basis is, well, daunting indeed.
That having been said - back to the point.
Science likes proof, as well it should. To count, weigh and measure. To demonstrate repeatability and explain the workings of a vastly sophisticated natural world and universe. Yet scientists in a variety of fields come to a point, past which, fundamental processes and forces become unexplainable. Going deeply enough, there will be a point where matters are 'explained' as 'just the way things work'.
Quite taken for granted, by definition.
I refer to matters such as the behavior of fundamental particles, and why they combine to form myriad elements that make up - well - everything. How atoms bond and molecules accumulate to create matter. How photons are both particles and waves. Why electrons are affected by observation, (many physicists become nervous when confronted by that pesky measurement problem, bless their hearts). And, of course - there's that ultraviolet catastrophe - a genuine monkey wrench in an otherwise elegant order. Why do electrons orbit within an atom only at precise multiples? In a simple water molecule, why is one hydrogen atom poitively charged and the second one negatively charged?
Simply stated, why do 'things' do what they do?
Then, there are the fundamental and critical forces that dictate not only everything that we see, but everything that we don't.
Gravity, essentially, remains but a theory, mired in a concept currently described as 'a dent in the space/time continuum'. I believe it - mainly because I don't know what else to believe. Einstein struggled with it for twenty years and gave up. I figured that if such a thing stumped Einstein, I should stick with rebuilding carburetors.
Electromagnetism, a million, billion, billion, billion, billion times stronger than gravity - and it's effects, like gravity, are predictable and observeable - yet remain, you guessed it - unexplained.
Don't get me started on the nuclear forces - we'll be here all day. (I'll save dark matter and dark energy for another time - meanwhile, ask a dedicated, seasoned cosmologist to explain galactic conservation of angular momentum.)
To take these perplexing realities a step futher, abiogeneticists and chemical biologists rely on a plethora of processes and behaviors to explain how the living cell forms, exists and replicates, how amino acids form proteins, that RNA and DNA carries life's signature, that polypeptides always behave predictably. However, these seemingly magical, certainly mysterious processes remain in the same realm - unexplained and taken for granted.
Whether explaining to the novice or speaking to other experts, past a critical point, the physicist, the biologist or the cosmologist must, by necessity, rely on a laundry list of critical aspects of nature that are, yep, "just the way things are".
It is one thing to understand a building, for instance. It's dimensions, it's function and design, even it's location and structure. But without a genuine understanding of the individual bricks, (how they obtain and hold their shape), or the mortar, (why it serves as the ideal bonding agent, and was it just conveniently lying around), why not just admit that a plethora of fundamental aspects of the building are not understood? And may never be?
But my friend insist that these hidden forces and properties are commonplace, and in being so, are 'built in' - omnipresent - even 'simply natural', (he explains with a slight shrug).
I reminded myself of an inquisitive child, asking the all-knowing parent a series of "whys", followed by the inevitable "why", at which some point, the parent simply doesn't know - "why?". And the frustrated parent will often dismiss the child to tend to matters of homework or chores.
To demonstrate predictability or repeatability is far short of understanding - or explaining the concept. I found that getting my brilliant friend the physicist to admit that these forces of nature - essential in science's 'understanding' and quantification of all aspects of matter, energy and life - were simply taken for granted... and 'just the way things are' - made him uneasy. "We aren't there yet", he explained. "But we'll get there eventually". But for now, is seems, these critical aspects of everything we know and see are seemingly 'incidental', no more than 'accidental', or even 'meaningless'. (Now that's precisely what I would call a classic leap of faith by definition, and quite a critical leap, it is.)
So, in being a dedicated atheist, my learned friend remains certain that evidence of intelligent design is non-existent, even though his understanding, (and those of every single person on planet earth), squarely hits a brick wall, even before the quantum realm is reached, and these mysterious, critical aspects of nature are, essentially, 'all important, yet meaningless and accidental'.
Would I be making the outrageous claim that these unexplained properties, behaviors and forces that dictate all reality everywhere from places unseen -and certainly far from understood - are the result of the hand of God, right under our noses yet unrecognized? The evidence of God - in all places - for all of time? No. Making such a claim would be absurd if I value my credibility, especially with so much not understood or explained.
But wouldn't the claim that these myriad, critical forces and properties do not indicate design, by a cadre of self-proclaimed experts - when they are simply unable to explain such matters except to say, "that's just the way things work", be an equally unsubstantiated proclamation?
Michael
as far as things like gravity and magnetism being explained it's not so difficult...if you empty a cavity of it's air and do not seal it the air rushes back in.if you think of these things as deficits and surpluses,that is: compressions and decompressions of space or fundamental particles it is easy to see why things attract or repel each other...too much of one and not enough of another...it's all imbalances and things "know" of the imbalance so they move in the appropriate direction.put simply each atom has a deficit or an inversion of "stuff"...the outside is attracted to the inside mutually and is not dependant on electron charge...it is the electron which serves to both separate atoms and to keep them together.If the universe were to become balanced it would be both solid and energy but "one" and becoming one it would compress the matter beyond it compressability(like a black hole does) and eventually explode into particles again.Just a theory.
One thing I have learned from studying Artificial Intelligence is that Evolutionary
design differs from how human engineering design works. For one thing,
in evolution, all levels of functions are mixed together and available
because things are always tested into operation, So from Quantum
mechanics through physics through chemistry, everything is on-tap ready
to be used, and then tested into the correct operation. Evolution never
needs to do intermediate analysis so it doesn't waste time doing partial
ordering or logical construction of intermediate levels. One reason studying
the physical brain is so difficult is that at certain levels the wiring in each is
unique, meaning it hits a level where things appear randomised. So one can
generally tell at some level whether something complex was done via evolution
or via human intelligence. Perhaps we will develop more evolution-like design
methodology in the future and perhaps God's design methods are superior,
but they certainly are different. These difference indicates to some extent
how human intelligence, does what it does, and I feel is worth studing.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quoteperhaps God's design methods are superior,
but they certainly are different. These difference indicates to some extent
how human intelligence, does what it does, and I feel is worth studing.
Great observation Mark! Rent the movie: "Expelled" by Ben Stein. I for one, find it very interesting that a book such as the Holy Bible could be so very accurate over a span of thousands of years, even identifying the Zionist AntiChrists that are in power in our day. Also proclaiming that man would take dominion over the skies, even reaching into heaven....again written thousands of years in advance, while some of the Wright bros.own contemporaries were denying the possibility despite photographic evidence of their flights.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html
http://watch.pair.com/solomon.html
The Bible correctly identified the 'cabal' of individuals who would employ the mark of solomon, his six pointed seal, the geometric expression of 6 6 6 that would be in power in our day.
http://www.hornes.org/theologia/mark-horne/what-is-the-worth-of-666-talents-of-gold
To correctly indict antiChrist zionism/freemasonry and their offshoot tentacles, as the Holy Scriptures themselves have done eons ago, while denying the various amazing truths of the Bible would be foolhardy indeed!
Remember, the enemies of Christ's children now openly declare their allegiance to the wicked one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs
To harbor belief that a greater truth lies sandwiched between those who believe the word of God, and those in power who worship the devil as prophesied thousands of years ago, is an increasingly untenable position. One perhaps more precarious than either of the other two..
"I would rather have you hot or cold, for be lukewarm and I will spit you out of my mouth." - Yeshua, Jesus Christ
"I will bring to ruin, those ruining the earth" - Yahweh, Almighty God.
Before it's over, all who remain alive in this generation will either actively choose a side, or do so by passive default. This life, this reality, is truly a test. God will not host cowards in His kingdom, cowards become traitors, and traitors start wars.
Blessings in Yeshua be upon you dear readers,
TS
when people have more to say than there are ears willing to listen...time and energy are wasted...Techstuf...we are aware of your views...your religiously motivated posts cancerize these threads...please,leave us to our demise if you will...rather than taking any subject matter and branding it with your particular flavor of obedience...when it comes to controlling people religion can be sited as a voluntary complience with the status quo...resuting in the political equivalent of martial law.Since the U.S. system is based on the Roman Empire it is a my opinion that adapting our country to middle eastern religious ideals is a conflict of interest to say the least.
now,to reply to the subject matter of the thread:man is only as crafty as the tools with which he does his deeds...technological advancement is the resource which allows us to develop these tools...tools beget more tools and nobody can deny that science is moving forward for truthfully science is not uncovering anything new,it is merely learning to discover that which has been buried under a mountain of myth and foolery,some of which has been exploitive manipulated by the powers that be...so: in order to adhere to the past view of the world you must consistently make up new ways to argue an ancient point...that point being that God's words can be contained within a relatively small volume such as "the Bible" and that the conceptualization of God is "okay" because we (the writers of the book) are "chosen" and "authorized" to impose our particular views on the world(as if the almighty God cannot speak for himself).Not only that but realizing the history of the Hebrews and their exile from virtually every place that they have ever inhabited resultant from being disowned by their family and country for crimes of indiscriminate killing for profit I find myself unable to sympathize with these people.
In rebuttal to this thread's title assertion that there is no God:
Yes, there are many gods. But one true Creator of the test we are all taking. This reality is a proving ground, as to who will be counted worthy to inherit the true reality, the awesome, perfect kingdom of Yahweh, Almighty God. I for one do not relish the thought of experiencing any length of time in a bottomless pit, be it a black hole or otherwise, apart from God and His creation. And one's death bed is a sorry place to finally divorce one's self from arrogant self assumption and truly become honest with one's self before His maker. But it is certainly better than remaining stubbornly adherent to willful ignorance to the bitter end. How much better it is to see reason, and share True Wisdom with others in time to be of service to self and fellow man.
Facts are facts,
http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=326
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-451414/Slaughter-Horror-Sonys-depraved-promotion-stunt-decapitated-goat.html
Christ warned His children long ago that in this last generation, the 'beast' and those who take it's mark would worship a god of war. And it seems they could not be more proud, nor more arrogant, to do so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs
So, cry as they might, the enemies of truth dare not to confront the facts as they are MANY, but choose instead to resort to juvenile behavior and baseless exhortation in order to attempt to dissuade others from facing those facts, and therefore benefitting themselves and all who would heed wise counsel to come out and be separate from those who've given themselves over to the wicked one.
The plagues to come upon those who choose the side of evil are not far away, in fact, some are already here.
Choose wisely whom it is that you would serve, for the hour is late, dear readers.
Who will you serve? The new whoreld odor, that cabal of devil worshippers or the God, who thousands of years in advance, warned you they were coming and identified them by name, purpose, deed and creed?
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/sixpointedstar.html
Again, facts are facts,
And it is a fact that fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom, for one must come to realize that He Is, elsewise, why fear disobeying His reasonable statutes?
The kings of the earth are being misled and lie in the power of the wicked one. The evidence is prolific.
Do not be counted among them, dear readers, bend your knees in private and beseech Yahweh in Yeshua, Jesus Christ, asking forgiveness of sin and a place in His Kingdom and you will come to know that truth is more Relative than you may have realized. For when Christ reveals Himself to an individual such that He begins a work in that one, He will not let it go unfinished.
Blessings in Christ,
TS
If anyone is interested in The Science of Mind read the whole book on-line for free here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/som/index.htm
http://www.websyte.com/unity/title.htm
Download The Science of Mind book for free as .pdf file here:
http://hackersclub.net/Ernest_Holmes_The_Science_of_Mind_1926.pdf
seeking a God particle is caused by the assumption that constituents of matter probably are not infinitely small...that when finally broken down farther and farther they ( the physicists) will eventually find the most minute part of matter which all other matter is made up of...the assumption that E=MC2(meaning that matter and energy are the same thing) is the father of this thought and the Higgs Boson is the child .The assumption that God used a basic building block to assemble creation is the heart of the hypothesis.So,science does not deny God but rather seeks him through emulation of a definitive beginning (the big bang)and yearning to be a witness to this event.Perhaps the seeking of the God particle is in and of itself a type of faith for the skeptic:to begin from a conclusion which seems to lighten the heart.It is my opinion that we all have the right to seek God in our own way and should not condemn curiosity and doubt.
Interesting website, especially this page:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/som/som44.htm
However there is no shortage of misled ones who, instead of taking Christ at His word, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that none shall come unto Yahweh but through Him.....instead fulfill the prophecy that wolves in sheeps clothing would come unto the children of God, attempting to appear as 'angels of light' in order to deceive.
One such example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs
Displays the futility of claiming connection with Christ while in the same breath, proclaiming allegiance to the devil.
"There can be no fellowship of light with darkness" - Yeshua, Jesus Christ
http://watch.pair.com/mark.html
Blessings in Christ,
TS
Michael,
would you be able to prove that YOU are not god
Quote from: Mannix on November 17, 2008, 07:25:35 PM
Michael,
would you be able to prove that YOU are not god
Employing strickly the highest standards of proof, and the fact that proving a negative is often impossible, no - I couldn't.
But in assessing the empirical evidence, albeit circumstantial, God would not likely allow his toe to be stubbed - twice, in one day.
Perhaps a bit of light can be shed on this using a different perspective...
First, I'm not here to attempt to convince anyone of the existence or non-existence of God.
That seems to be a personal matter that I myself refuse to meddle with.
But let me share a statement with you and ask you what your thoughts are concerning it.
"It is impossible for a man to be a saved in ignorance. There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter."
I'll comment briefly concerning my own take on the matter first...
I'm told of the Michelson Morley experiment which was performed with the purpose of settling the argument concerning the existence of the Aether... It was determined the the aether did not exist and It has been accepted as factual ever since. Guys, this test was performed in the 1800s and it was flawed in that it did not account for the possibility that the aether might flow in an unexpected direction. The test was supposed to detect an aetherial flow blowing past the earth in various directions, but, in their ignorance, they did not test to see if this aether could be flowing INTO the earth.
I submit that this aether does indeed exist, and furthermore I believe that it flows not past the earth, but directly into it... and that this atherial matter stream is made up of sub atomic particles of varying sizes and configurations which can also be identified by the above mentioned statement as spirit matter.
Furthermore I also suggest that this aetherial matter stream is drawn into the nucleus of all atoms in existence in a similar manner as air is drawn into a vacuum, and is the driving force behind the phenomena we refer to as gravity. Hence, the greater an objects atomic density, the greater the gravitational force is that is drawn into it.
This also accounts for the apparent gravity of each and every atom in existence.
This is not my own personal theory and I cannot take credit for it. If anyone would care to comment or would like to know more about this theories origin, please feel free to comment.
Greater light and knowledge to all :)
The smaller things get, the more amazingly constructed they reveal themselves to be! It is written that man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of the Most High. When God speaks a thing into existence, perhaps his words are carried on the aether and result in what we perceive as matter. The bible also talks of rebellious ones being cast into the bottomless pit. And almost in the same breath, being cast into outer darkness where their weeping and gnashing of teeth will be.
Now, the question becomes, how can one be cast into a 'bottomless' pit and be in outer darkness?
That is, unless, to be outside of God's kingdom, is to be inside something else?
A real 'hole to nowhere'.
TS
So...GOD doesn't exist??? Open your eyes and give your head a shake man! There's just tooooo much evidence all around us that HE does exist.
You would think that if there is a vacuum in outer space, then what the heck is keeping the air that we breathe from dissipating into outer space???? Especially 200 mph wind storms! Then again, what controls your next breath?
Sure, you can believe what you want but the FACT is... NO ONE... is getting out of life alive. That's the bottom line. Once you die, that's it! You can't come back and change anything.
So maybe your right and who cares...but what if your WRONG and GOD looks you in the eyes and you have to account for all the things that you did...whatcha gonna do NOW?? Time to pay the piper! Sure wouldn't want to be in your skin!!
Here's your life in a nutshell...
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp
Something for everyone...
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
LMAO! I thought this was a science forum!
Whether God exists or not, could be, and has been amply debated... and IF HE exists, He is certainly NOT a God of Contention. Furthermore, His existence cannot be proven by physical manifestation for the simple reason that faith must play a part in our progress. You can't just perform some scientific experiment and determine, without question, and for the whole world, if he is there or not.
Lets stick to things we can produce tangible evidence for, please. If He really Is there, He's not exactly likely to be inclined to jump out of the bushes to solve this argument.
Fuck it, You only live once and you aint comin back baby!!!!!!! Live it!!!!!!!!!!!
QuoteLMAO! I thought this was a science forum!
LOL! Whatever gave you that idea?
We are here to talk about a wide variety of thought provoking ideas until a perfectly formed, hyper efficient, overunity motor evolves into being by accident!
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jst.go.jp%2Ficorp%2Fenglish%2Fcurrent_proj%2Fimg%2Fdynamic%2Fimg_dynamic03.jpg&hash=799ea702c3efae79217088d8a5171b0da33c8742)
http://www.nanonet.go.jp/english/mailmag/2004/011a.html
Science forum, he says....that cracks me up!
TS
What I meant to say was............church............whatever your belief........was created by the rulers of the land a very long time ago ( before the bible, or whatever crap you believe)), to give hope to the lesser. As they all look to the stars and wonder for hope for a better future. While economics of the land, aka, survival of mankind, being the real reason. Figure it out . Dead= gone. Governments consult the church for economic reasons. The vatican is a long trail of horse shit just the rest of religions. Period.
The intent in posting my article, was to confront the laundry list of fundamental forces and properties that dictate all aspects of the physical universe and the building blocks and processes necessary for life.
The critical aspects that many, (most notably, some scientists), that tend to dismiss as 'natural', and therefore are seemingly of no consequence.
Or mere happenstance - some going as far as to proclaim that there is no possible meaning or purpose.
Which I find to be nothing short of stunning - a leap of faith far more irrational than that of conventional religious faith, because it involves dismissing the critical influences in our existence and that of everything, everywhere as nothing more than 'meaningless', or 'accidental happenstance'. All the while, with no grasp of the causes.
The real causes. Those not explained by mathmatical models.
It is one thing, for instance, to explain the function of an electric motor. The permanent magnets and stator, the rotor and brushes, the conversion of electrical current into magnetism and magnetism into torque. But without understanding the current - the reality of why electrons do what they do within the wiring - and the resultant magnetism - the explanation, (or understanding), is far from complete. And once again, taken for granted as a force that is "just the way it is".
Delve into the fundamental aspects of physics, chemistry, abiogenetics or the life sciences. In all, there are a wide variety of unknowns that are at the center of reality - yet virtually unexplained.
One making the proclamation that gravity, electromagnetism, the stong and weak nuclear forces, and a plethora of processes fundamental to the existence of life are but meaningless accidents, because they can be defined as "natural", and therefore mere happenstance, is a remarkably arrogant mindset.
Quote of the day: "Infinity is a really, really long time. Especially toward the end."
Quote from: TechStuf on November 19, 2008, 12:32:35 AM
LOL! Whatever gave you that idea?
We are here to talk about a wide variety of thought provoking ideas until a perfectly formed, hyper efficient, overunity motor evolves into being by accident!
TS, the flagellum motor is quite a stunning example of the unexplained - and throws a wrench into the incremental processes that science uses to explain the principles of evolution.
I'm sure you're familiar with Behe, and his concept of irreducible complexity likening it to a mousetrap. There's a fellow over on YouTube that pretends to reduce the complexity of the mousetrap by subtracting it's constituent parts one by one - and manages to make an utter fool of himself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jXcCDxykW8
@st
In the style of doc Emmett L Brown, "Where were going we don't need motors!"
I have come by a fanastic video called "The Cosmic Plan". It is so informative I am surprised it is not banned!
You'll find it by downloading it with bit torrent.
If you don't know what that is, go to www.utorrent.com to get the downloader.
If you need help just ask.
Peace
Ok Scary, I get where you are coming from now... you just end to word it more eloquently than I. hehehe
I truly share that thought as well... I think it was Einstein that was once quoted (to the surprise of many)
"The deeper I delve into the sciences of this universe, the more deeply I am convinced, that it was organized by one force, or one being, for our discovery."
It may not be verbatim, but that the essential idea.
There was little comment about my previous post about Aether...
I'd like to hear your thoughts.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmindpetals.com%2Fwp-content%2Fimages%2Fwolfinsheep3.jpeg&hash=61b93d6aaec6d33cd82ab31dd2379e61befedba1)
I come in peace ;) lol
Mmmm... hard to find a God particle...
I understand that we can only get to see the "vibration" of God, but not a particle. May be they will find that there is not a particle, but only an Order, a Way of conducting everything without touching, without come involved.
The Creator of that Way, perhaps will be for ever a mistery, or... a simple part of the common live, our lives.
A little of filosophy...
Greetings...
Maybe it's best that the poster/author of the article isn't allowed to delete commentary composed under less than ideal conditions. Such as narrowly, pre-conceived mindsets devoid of material evidence, kneejerk reactions feigning profundity largely for the sake of self gratification or a lack of preparation as a result of missing the entire point.
Quote from: TechStuf on November 17, 2008, 05:17:21 PM
However there is no shortage of misled ones who, instead of taking Christ at His word, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that none shall come unto Yahweh but through Him.....instead fulfill the prophecy that wolves in sheeps clothing would come unto the children of God, attempting to appear as 'angels of light' in order to deceive.
It is pointless to try to shore up your position that the Christian god exists by citing the Bible. That is not credible evidence.
This is pointless debate regardless. Even searching outside of God's existance does not give us an answer even with all our science and technology.
From my point of view all I need to look at is the amazing design of the human body. Just look at the amazing intricacy of the ear, with its delicate eardrum and tiny bones. The nerve connections into the brain. The design of the human shoulder with its synovial fluid and cartilage joint. The attachments of the ligaments and tendons. The design of the muscle structure with its overlapping fibers that respond to the brain's commands. The complete design of the eye with its lens and involuntary muscles that contract and change its shape to focus on objects that aren't even part of the body. The enzymes, hormones, and chemical reactions that keep our bodies alive all function in harmony during good health. The anti-bodies that attack bacteria and virus invaders. It is absolutely incredible that anyone who studies these workings could come to any other conclusion; but I can understand why. It is frightening to believe that there is a being that can see all that you do and judge your life after your death. It is easier to believe that no one is watching in our most private moments and thoughts.
I could go on and on, but still those who refuse to believe of a grand designer will never be convinced. It is a matter of faith, and this is where I believe God has planned it all so splendidly. There is no scientific test that can prove God's existance, and that is the way it MUST be in order to allow each individual to decide by the decision of faith. It is no accident of nature.
Each individual, at some point in their life, makes a decision on this matter. That decision will be the deciding factor for which they will be responsible.
For me the decision is obvious. For others, not so certain. That is where you must pray and ask for guidance; otherwise it may never come to you again. Those who believe can understand what I am typing here. Those without belief will be blinded by their own pride.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 30, 2008, 12:11:51 PM
It is frightening to believe that there is a being that can see all that you do and judge your life after your death. It is easier to believe that no one is watching in our most private moments and thoughts.
How do you get from creation of the living organism to seeing all you do, reading your mind constantly, and judging you after your death? One does not follow from the other.
Quote from: utilitarian on November 30, 2008, 01:51:10 PM
How do you get from creation of the living organism to seeing all you do, reading your mind constantly, and judging you after your death? One does not follow from the other.
What are you talking about? That is the very definition of an all-knowing and all-seeing God.
If you are expecting me to convince you of God's existence then I can assure you that most likely will not happen. The only person that can convince anyone of God's existance is themself. If you believe that the amazing design of the human body is from evolution and random events with no intelligence to guide it then I am sorry to say you are without hope unless you look for the answer yourself.
Nobody is stupid on this forum. We are all intelligent enough to make our own intelligent decisions. All I can do is express mine, just as you express yours. The chasm between us will never be filled by debate between you and I; but I can say I used to believe in evolution when I was in high school. I am now a 49 year old chemist who has experienced much of life and religion and science, and I now am convinced that evolution is not the source of all life on this planet. To me it is as obvious as the biological wonders of the world around us.
QuoteI could go on and on, but still those who refuse to believe of a grand designer will never be convinced. It is a matter of faith, and this is where I believe God has planned it all so splendidly. There is no scientific test that can prove God's existance, and that is the way it MUST be in order to allow each individual to decide by the decision of faith. It is no accident of nature.
Well put. The following is website with videos comprising a 24 part lecture series by former atheist & science teacher, John Clayton. It covers a wide variety of questions and answers from the scientific standpoint.
http://www.doesgodexist.tv/
John Clayton certainly isn't alone. Many in the scientific community have abondoned the Titanic in favor of the Ark. The man who led the team that cracked the human genome is but one example:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article673663.ece
Time is running short, and as the prophecies of God's Holy Word are unfolding as He has promised, it is imperative that those who are open to the possibiltiy of His existence, (and not already subverted by the devil by way of secret societies, antiChrist Zionism/talmudic judaism etc.) ask Him fervently to reveal Himself. If one is serious, and makes a sincere effort of proving that they truly wish to know and are not displaying idle curiousity....He will reward the faith of their effort. Even if one has dabbled in occult, are bound by pernicious codes, allegiances, alliances, perceived obligations. YOU CAN BE FREE....and in a BIG WAY!
"Now without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who diligently search for him." - Hebrews 11:6
Make no mistake, this life is a test. Can one, having been born in imperfection, be fit to live in a perfect Kingdom?
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matt 7:14
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6
Our Father looks down at men who would waste, utterly WASTE ten thousand million dollars on a large toy, while millions suffer and starve in dumb anguish, when evidence is all around them, many trillions of particles with God's signature all over them. The iniquity of these men and those like them, will not stand! They will be brought very low before their Creator, and the self assumed, defiant and presumptuous ones will be cast into outer darkness where their weeping and gnashing of teeth will be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGpxfoF3SYg
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm
Blessings in Yeshua, Jesus Christ,
Mitch
Quote from: ResinRat2 on November 30, 2008, 03:10:34 PM
What are you talking about? That is the very definition of an all-knowing and all-seeing God.
No, that is simply a definition of someone who knows how to make a living organism.
Quote from: TechStuf on November 30, 2008, 03:45:52 PM
Well put. The following is website with videos comprising a 24 part lecture series by former atheist & science teacher, John Clayton. It covers a wide variety of questions and answers from the scientific standpoint.
There is nothing scientific about his approach.
"This is the real meaning of evolution; for evolution is the result of intelligence and not its cause."
:)
Science doesn't have the answers either. It has no proof for God, it also has no proof of how the universe began.
QuoteScience doesn't have the answers either.
Regarding the Creator, of course not. Man's wisdom is foolishness to God. Science can however, point to the right questions for those unaccustomed to the consistent application of faith.
Afterall, all mankind relies upon faith of one kind or another. Also expecting faith from his fellow man.
Without faith in himself, or his fellow man,
He becomes a beast.
Blessings in Yeshua, Jesus Christ,
Mitch
sure there is proof of God, but it really depends on your understanding of the word/definition/symbol "God".
Quote from: TechStuf on December 01, 2008, 12:35:58 AMWithout faith in himself, or his fellow man,He becomes a beast.
hmm,makes me think that the story of Adam and Eve answers the question :"if we are (different) better than the beasts then why must we still die?' or originally:" why does man die in the sight of a God that is all powerful?" we are born condemned to death and it is strange and ironic that if it wasn't for our minds we would not be aware of it but if it wasn't for our minds we would be no different from beasts.
It is not self awareness as much as his tentative grasp on the concept of eternity that truly vexes the minds of 'godless' men. Truly, it is given him that man should worship one god or another all his days.
'Yahweh has made everything beautiful in its time; He has also planted eternity in men’s heart and mind (a divinely implanted sense of purpose working through the ages, which NOTHING under the sun, but ONLY GOD, can satisfy), yet so that man cannot find out what God has done from beginning to the end.'
Even the belly can be a god. There seems no limit to the interests that man will serve.
Without recognition of the Ultimate Authority, man founders foolishly. Woe unto they who substitute themselves for such position.
God Bless,
TS
"Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?" - paul atreides
Quote from: TechStuf on December 01, 2008, 12:35:58 AM
Regarding the Creator, of course not. Man's wisdom is foolishness to God. Science can however, point to the right questions for those unaccustomed to the consistent application of faith.
Afterall, all mankind relies upon faith of one kind or another. Also expecting faith from his fellow man.
Without faith in himself, or his fellow man,
He becomes a beast.
Blessings in Yeshua, Jesus Christ,
Mitch
You know, even without resorting to science, Christianity makes no sense. Have you even considered the behavior of your Jesus Christ, meek, mild and loving?
Why would a loving and all-powerful god create a hell, or allow a hell to exist, where his beloved creations are allowed to endure endless and infinite torture? Does that sound like something a loving god would do? And, mind you, the endless and terrible torture is not doled out to merely the murderers of the world. In fact, a murderer who on his deathbed says "I'm sorry," and "accepts" Jesus Christ is spared eternal damnation. But an upstanding Jewish person, who has done nothing but good his entire life, providing for his family, being charitable in the community, helping many through his good profession, is condemned to burn in Hell for all eternity.
I have posed this paradox to several devout Christians, and the typical response I get is: Hell is the absence of Jesus Christ in your life. Man chooses to accept Jesus or not, and separating yourself from Jesus results in going to Hell. This this I say - baloney! When the result of something is certain, inaction is the same as action. God is all-knowing, therefore he knows what will happen to his loving creations. God is all-powerful, therefore he can make himself present everywhere, destroying Hell in the process. God is loving, so he would not be so pernicious as to allow someone to be tortured endlessly merely for not being a sycophant. Yet, Hell exists, according to Christian scripture.
If you want references, why don't you watch Religulous or read God is not Great, by Christopher Hitchens. Open your mind a little bit, too.
Who or what controls the massive Birkeland currents that are emitted from galactic core poles that create and support all the millions of stars living around them. It sure aint the president of this tribe or the emperor of that. Or some religious zealot. Never leave it up to a God to do what you can for the good of all beings. It's a win win situation. Neglect abuse put yourself above any other being and what goes around will come around just a matter of time before you reap what you sow.
This thread has now reached the level of pointless back and forth comments. One side insulting the idea of a God and those that believe in God, the other defending the belief of God's existance.
Neither side will change the other's mind.
Ho hum. Waste of memory space.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on December 01, 2008, 10:10:51 AM
This thread has now reached the level of pointless back and forth comments. One side insulting the idea of a God and those that believe in God, the other defending the belief of God's existance.
Neither side will change the other's mind.
Ho hum. Waste of memory space.
Back and forth comments are what is otherwise known as a discussion. I take it you cannot resolve the paradox I posed. By the way, i did not insult the idea of God.
"You know, even without resorting to science, Christianity makes no sense."
Evolutionism makes less sense. Hmmm...if I have a mosquito and throw a billion years at it, the mosquito will magically morf into an elephant and every creature in between...no? Ok, throw another billion or even 972 trillion years at it.... puhhl-eese!!!
You truly need, WAY more FAITH to believe in that evolution horseshit, than you do believing in GOD!
Soooo...the scientist's do believe in a god!?! ....TIME! Just add time to anything and you'll get all sorts of creatures from basically nothing! ::)
"Why would a loving and all-powerful god create a hell, or allow a hell to exist, where his beloved creations are allowed to endure endless and infinite torture?"
Well, God DIDN'T create hell for man but ONLY for the devil and his angels (demons).
Mathew 25-41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
We are created with a FREE will. ;D
He creates us free because He wants our love for him to be genuine. God loves people so much that he allows them to ultimately decide what they want to do with their lives rather than reserving that choice for Himself, and turning them into happy robots.
The only way humans can be truly free is if they have a real choice to reject God. If God denies existence to all those he foreknows will use their choice to reject Him, then the choice to reject God that exists for those who remain, is not a real choice. They have to have a real ability to reject God if they want to, not a pretend one, for Free Will to exist. God does not use his foreknowledge to predestine human destinies.
Earth belongs to God, we are just here for a season (100 years if you're lucky). God makes the rules...either we go along with Him or we don't, simple as that...free will??
All humans are sinners. We all deserve to be in hell. God loves us so much that he gave us an escape plan from hell, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour right up to your last breath, but after that it'll be too late.
Hell exists, and it is necessary. God is making every possible effort to keep us away from there, in much the same way as you might try to warn motorists that a bridge is out ahead of them. Never mind about the reason, the bridge is just out...
Quote from: yaz on December 01, 2008, 11:43:23 AM
All humans are sinners. We all deserve to be in hell. God loves us so much that he gave us an escape plan from hell, and that is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour right up to your last breath, but after that it'll be too late.
Hell exists, and it is necessary. God is making every possible effort to keep us away from there, in much the same way as you might try to warn motorists that a bridge is out ahead of them. Never mind about the reason, the bridge is just out...
God can simply fix the bridge in your analogy. God can do away with hell. Hell is not necessary at all - there are many other alternatives. One is absolute nothingness instead of Hell. Why does it need to be endless torture? Isn't being denied Heaven enough punishment? Why the obsession with torture? Wouldn't nothingness be much more merciful? Why can't god find mercy in his soul?
And why are all humans sinners? Why would god, the perfect, the all-knowing, the all-powerful, create something that is sinful from day 0? And then go on to punish that thing that he created, for the flaw that was created with that being?
And does original sin even seem fair to you? So our ancestors betrayed God in some way, so what? Why does a brand new baby, just born, which has done nothing wrong, need to be a sinner, just because an ancestor 6000 years ago did something wrong? Doesn't this offend your basic sense of justice? Why would a god, loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, condemn a baby to be a sinner.
And god-forbid that baby dies before it gets baptized, it is going straight to hell to be tortured forever.
Now tell me, is that the act of a loving God, to torture a 5-month old Jewish baby for all eternity? Please, if you can resolve this issue for me, I would be much grateful.
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 11:27:50 AM
Back and forth comments are what is otherwise known as a discussion. I take it you cannot resolve the paradox I posed. By the way, i did not insult the idea of God.
Between us our "discussion" is pointless. It doesn't matter what I write; you will need to resolve your issues by your own seeking, not by my grandeur style or knowledge or lack of ability to cleverly work out all your issues with Christianity. I see no paradox with how God has designed the universe, nor how he deals with the people on this earth. If He chooses to come as a meek human to preach His word, or if He chooses to punish those who refuse to believe in Him then that is His own decision. The fact that it makes little sense to you is irrelevent. When God has complete dominion over the universe He can arbitrarily choose to act as He wishes in all events.
The fact that you don't like it doesn't matter. All you want is the last word to "prove" that the Christian religion is false. What you say will not change anyone's mind who has Faith. Just as what I say will not change yours.
So why are you wasting my time? I assume just so you can have the last word.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on December 01, 2008, 12:45:17 PM
Between us our "discussion" is pointless. It doesn't matter what I write; you will need to resolve your issues by your own seeking, not by my grandeur style or knowledge or lack of ability to cleverly work out all your issues with Christianity. I see no paradox with how God has designed the universe, nor how he deals with the people on this earth. If He chooses to come as a meek human to preach His word, or if He chooses to punish those who refuse to believe in Him then that is His own decision. The fact that it makes little sense to you is irrelevent. When God has complete dominion over the universe He can arbitrarily choose to act as He wishes in all events.
The fact that you don't like it doesn't matter. All you want is the last word to "prove" that the Christian religion is false. What you say will not change anyone's mind who has Faith. Just as what I say will not change yours.
So why are you wasting my time? I assume just so you can have the last word.
In honesty, I am curious how Christians resolve the Hell paradox to themselves. Apparently, it is with "Well, it is God's universe, and he does as he pleases." Well, that is not a rosy picture, and really it does not resolve the paradox, just ignores it.
My feeling is that being a Christian should at least give one some comfort in God, but to me, the existence of Hell is evidence of a capricious God, like a parent who mercilessly whips a child who refuses to tell the parent how much the child loves the parent. So where is the comfort in that. How do people live with that kind of religion? I guess it's just taking what they teach you in Bible study and forcing yourself to swallow it.
And why the obsession with being worshipped by those you have created? Why does God need to be worshipped, to the point where he threatens his creations with infinite torment if they do not comply?
If everything boils down to, "well, I don't know what God is doing exactly, and I cannot explain it," that's my point. It makes no sense, and the only way to believe it is to have faith that the paradox will be resolved for you. To me, that is no way to live.
Quote:
"One of the most often-used weapons in the skeptic’s arsenal is to seize statements from religious people that make God look like a cruel despot waiting to cast any and everyone into a torturous lake of eternal fire. However, this frequently lands the skeptic in a less-than-defensible position when the actual text of the Bible is consulted. Consider the following paragraph from Ronald Defenbaugh, a self-avowed atheist:..."
Also "Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence. In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.â€
See http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2255
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 09:25:15 AMWhy would a loving and all-powerful god create a hell, or allow a hell to exist, where his beloved creations are allowed to endure endless and infinite torture?
Because he/she/it gives them the freedom to experience whatever they desire, even allowing them to create a law that there should be a hell if they desire so, and view he/she/it in whatever way they desire to? ;D
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 01, 2008, 01:41:19 PM
Because he/she/it gives them the freedom to experience whatever they desire, even allowing them to create a law that there should be a hell if they desire so, and view he/she/it in whatever way they desire to? ;D
That is no freedom. It's as if someone had a gun to your head, saying, well, you can give me your money, or I will shoot you. You could argue that the person threatened still has freedom, but really it is not so. The threat of endless torture is so great, that it removes free will from the equation. If God really wanted humans to have free will, why the need for such a threat to coerce a specific action?
Quote from: yaz on December 01, 2008, 01:40:30 PM
Quote:
"One of the most often-used weapons in the skeptic’s arsenal is to seize statements from religious people that make God look like a cruel despot waiting to cast any and everyone into a torturous lake of eternal fire. However, this frequently lands the skeptic in a less-than-defensible position when the actual text of the Bible is consulted. Consider the following paragraph from Ronald Defenbaugh, a self-avowed atheist:..."
Also "Although many skeptics have tried to portray God as an evil tyrant Who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, their arguments are without merit or any semblance of biblical credence. In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.â€
See http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2255
Have you actually read that passage? In it, people were bringing little children to Jesus to be touched, but the disciples were turning them away. Jesus was telling his disciples to allow the children to come to him. Jesus never says that baptism is not necessary for children in order to avoid eternal damnation. And to imply that baptism is not necessary for salvation would stand Mark 16:16 on its head. Mark 16:16 is plain and direct: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 01:50:54 PMThat is no freedom.
Unless you are aware that it's only a (let's say, for illustrative purposes, computer) game and that you (as a being who is able to
exist without a body) can't really get hurt in such a way that it would destroy you completely...
Quote from: ResinRat2 on December 01, 2008, 10:10:51 AM
This thread has now reached the level of pointless back and forth comments. One side insulting the idea of a God and those that believe in God, the other defending the belief of God's existance.
Neither side will change the other's mind.
Ho hum. Waste of memory space.
"Paradox is a pointer telling you to look beyond it. If paradoxes bother you, that betrays your deep desire for absolutes. The relativist treats a paradox merely as interesting, perhaps amusing or even, dreadful thought, educational." - Leto
"The defiling of a god is an ancient human tradition. Why should I (or yours) be an exception?" - Leto
"You could drag humankind almost anywhere by manipulating the enormous energies of procreation. You could goad humans into actions they would never have believed possible. ...This energy must have an outlet. Bottle it up and it becomes monstrously dangerous. Redirect it and it will sweep over anything in its path. This is an ultimate secret of all religions." - Bashar Miles Teg
"ho hum, waste of memory space." now that's the best description i have ever heard of a discussion about the 'reality' of some metaphysical shepherd entity...
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 02:10:08 PM
Have you actually read that passage? In it, people were bringing little children to Jesus to be touched, but the disciples were turning them away. Jesus was telling his disciples to allow the children to come to him. Jesus never says that baptism is not necessary for children in order to avoid eternal damnation. And to imply that baptism is not necessary for salvation would stand Mark 16:16 on its head. Mark 16:16 is plain and direct: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
hold up one part of the book and throw out the other... that's christianity in a nutshell.
an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth... turn the cheek not seven times but seven times seven times.
@ yaz
i am NOT a sinner, dumb ass. you may be, it is fine for you to include yourself in your own fantasy but don't drag us 'heathens' into it. we are not 'guilty by association'
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 02:47:22 PMan eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...
That was common
before Christianity, if I remember correctly (not part of the 2nd edition of the book ;-)... And didn't it actually talk about how Karma works (i.e. describing an automatic reaction to something caused by themselves), and was then twisted in such a way that it a) turns someone into a random victim and b) allows that one to take random action against others even though that one caused it in the first place?
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 01, 2008, 03:03:04 PM
That was common before Christianity, if I remember correctly (not part of the 2nd edition of the book ;-)... And didn't it actually talk about how Karma works (i.e. describing an automatic reaction to something caused by themselves), and was then twisted in such a way that it a) turns someone into a random victim and b) allows that one to take random action against others even though that one caused it in the first place?
are you suggesting that exodus is not considered to be divinely inspired?or part of the christian canon? last i checked it wasn't tossed out during the council of laodicea, (you know when all those MEN got together and decided what was divine and what wasn't) like revelations was...
perhaps you should actually read exodus, the slavery verses are really telling ;)
the world's religions in a nutshell, my imaginary god is better than your imaginary god.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 01, 2008, 03:17:47 PMare you suggesting that exodus is not considered to be divinely inspired?
Bear with me, I'm not a religious person, only a spiritual one... My idea of the bible is:
1st edition: Old Testament
2nd edition: New Testament
3rd edition: Quran
And as with all new editions of books, they correct errors and clarify but may also introduce new errors...
Please don't take me too serious on that one. ;D
The anti-Christians are coming out of the woodwork now baby.
From Matthew Chapter 5:
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
What is incredible to me is that answers to every one of your arguments can be found easily by doing simple searches on the net. There are many websites with Christian and Catholic Apologetics that answer all your questions. Why you start a thread that says God doesn't exist, and then you attack any post that shows a belief in a Christian God and rattle off your grievances just shows me that the whole underlying purpose for this thread was an anti-God, and especially an anti-Christian tirade.
From Mark Chapter 6:
“Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against themâ€
This is a perfect example of free will and being allowed to willingly condemn yourselves. You only want answers if they are handed to you effortlessly on a silver platter.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on December 01, 2008, 03:49:06 PM
The anti-Christians are coming out of the woodwork now baby.
From Matthew Chapter 5:
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
What is incredible to me is that answers to every one of your arguments can be found easily by doing simple searches on the net. There are many websites with Christian and Catholic Apologetics that answer all your questions. Why you start a thread that says God doesn't exist, and then you attack any post that shows a belief in a Christian God and rattle off your grievances just shows me that the whole underlying purpose for this thread was an anti-God, and especially an anti-Christian tirade.
From Mark Chapter 6:
“Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them”
This is a perfect example of free will and being allowed to willingly condemn yourselves. You only want answers if they are handed to you effortlessly on a silver platter.
the apologetics are full of shit. try reading dr. bertrand russell's why i am not a christian... http://www.users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
oops there goes all your arguments, first cause, argument from design, natural law argument, moral arguments for deity, argument for the remedy of injustice, defects in christs teachings...
"Having granted the excellence of these maxims, I come to certain points in which I do not believe that one can grant either the superlative wisdom or the superlative goodness of Christ as depicted in the Gospels; and here I may say that one is not concerned with the historical question. Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about him, so that I am not concerned with the historical question, which is a very difficult one. I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise. For one thing, he certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." Then he says, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of His earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, "Take no thought for the morrow," and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought that the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe that the second coming was imminent. I knew a parson who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise. " bertrand russell
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen F Roberts
you should be worshiping zeus, after all he was the inventor of the original spark gap ;)
and let us not forget 1 Kings 21-23, where god colludes with satan and his deceit...
Amen to that one RR....
You and Yaz made a good showing, Blessings in Christ be upon you both.
And upon His enemies as well.
Time to dust the feet,
TS
Quote from: TechStuf on December 01, 2008, 03:55:15 PM
Amen to that one RR....
You and Yaz made a good showing, Blessings in Christ be upon you both.
And upon His enemies as well.
Time to dust the feet,
TS
you can't be an enemy of something that doesn't exist...
may allah/flying spaghetti monster/zeus/insert your imaginary deity here/christ have mercy on your soul.
Quote from: TechStuf on December 01, 2008, 03:55:15 PM
Amen to that one RR....
You and Yaz made a good showing, Blessings in Christ be upon you both.
And upon His enemies as well.
Time to dust the feet,
TS
Ah yes, dust the feet, run away before, ahem, you can explain why a 5 month old Jewish or Muslim baby, who dies before being baptized, is allowed to be tortured for all eternity by your loving Jesus, so meek and mild.
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 05:54:22 PM[...] baby, who dies before being baptized, is allowed to be [...]
The catholic church recently indicated to abolish a strict requirement for limbo (and stated that it is not seasonable anymore).
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 01, 2008, 06:37:24 PM
The catholic church recently indicated to abolish a strict requirement for limbo (and stated that it is not seasonable anymore).
So how is it that the church can abolish limbo? Either they were wrong before or they are wrong now. And how can the Pope, who is closest to God of all Catholics, ever be wrong?
And without limbo, that means they go straight to hell, right? Mark 16:16 is pretty clear, after all.
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 07:41:45 PMAnd without limbo, that means they go straight to hell, right?
I would prefer if they could openly agree that there is no original sin, that would make it a little more consistent (the tough part though is that from that it would eventually also follow that there is no sin â€" at least not in the form it has been made people believe). There is much wisdom in religion but to for any of them to survive in the long term the controlling aspect has to go, completely. No chance without full integrity. That doesn't mean to abandon traditions and customs or giving up identities if they also respect sovereignty.
Dear T.S.,
Either God is too huge and wondrous as to not need the likes of you or anyone to speak for IT, or it is so insignificant, flaccid and retarded as to need spokes people. Either way, there is nothing to discuss.
jt
Quote from: utilitarian on December 01, 2008, 05:54:22 PM
Ah yes, dust the feet, run away before, ahem, you can explain why a 5 month old Jewish or Muslim baby, who dies before being baptized, is allowed to be tortured for all eternity by your loving Jesus, so meek and mild.
Why only a 5 month old? Why only Jewish or muslim? What about a retarded child? What about a 35 year old with a brain of a 3 year old?? What about the people living in the amazon jungle that NEVER heard about Jesus either?
There is an age of accountability where they have to know right from wrong.
Babies and small children don't know right from wrong YET. Once they reach that age, then, if they don't accept Jesus, then they would go to hell. Babies are not held accountable for their actions until they reach an age of understanding. What that age is...is anybodys guess because each human has a different learning curve. Only God knows.
How are you going to accept Jesus if you never heard about Him?? DUH?
God is not stupid.
You can't fool God because He looks at your heart. He is a Just and Holy GOD.
He will judge each according to their own works.
How did the Old Testament Saints end up being with God in Heaven way before Jesus????
I don't know but they DID!
GOD works in mysterious ways. It's not my job to figure out how they got there but only to spread the awesome news of Jesus!
Listen, if you want answers why not ask Jesus into your heart right now and He'll explain everything to you. Why not go right to the source!
Here's what ya do...
"that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom.10:9
1. Admit you are a sinner. See Romans 3:10
2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). See Acts 17:30
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried and rose from the dead. See Rom. 10:9-10
4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Saviour. See Rom. 10:13
WHAT TO PRAY
Dear God, I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ shed His PRECIOUS BLOOD and died for my sin. I am willing to turn from sin. I now invite Christ to come into my heart and life as my personal Saviour.
If you trusted Jesus as your Saviour, you have just begun a wonderful new life with Him. Now,
1. Read your Bible every day to get to know Jesus Christ better.
2. Talk to God in prayer everyday.
3. Be baptized, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority.
4. Tell others about Jesus Christ.
Gee...that wasn't so hard, was it? Ask him what you want to know and He'll show you.
Now it can't get any EASIER THAN THAT!
Before you go to sleep give all your troubles to God, He's up all night anyway!
TechStuf and RR right on brothers! We gotta fight the good fight! ;D
Quote from: yaz on December 01, 2008, 10:18:53 PM
Here's what ya do...
"that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom.10:9
1. Admit you are a sinner. See Romans 3:10
2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). See Acts 17:30
3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried and rose from the dead. See Rom. 10:9-10
4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Saviour. See Rom. 10:13
WHAT TO PRAY
Dear God, I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ shed His PRECIOUS BLOOD and died for my sin. I am willing to turn from sin. I now invite Christ to come into my heart and life as my personal Saviour.
If you trusted Jesus as your Saviour, you have just begun a wonderful new life with Him. Now,
1. Read your Bible every day to get to know Jesus Christ better.
2. Talk to God in prayer everyday.
3. Be baptized, worship, fellowship, and serve with other Christians in a church where Christ is preached and the Bible is the final authority.
4. Tell others about Jesus Christ.
Gee...that wasn't so hard, was it? Ask him what you want to know and He'll show you.
Now it can't get any EASIER THAN THAT!
Before you go to sleep give all your troubles to God, He's up all night anyway!
TechStuf and RR right on brothers! We gotta fight the good fight! ;D
and some say this is an enlightened age of science and reason... ::)
see the FAQs here:
http://www.religiousscience.org/ucrs_site/philosophy/faq.html
http://www.rsintl.org/teaching/faq.asp
Quote from: yaz on December 01, 2008, 10:18:53 PMAsk him what you want to know and He'll show you.
A good question to ask is probably: "What is it that you would like me to know?"
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 02, 2008, 07:19:25 AM
A good question to ask is probably: "What is it that you would like me to know?"
You might find the conversation one-sided.
Quote from: FreeEnergy on December 02, 2008, 05:48:18 AM
see the FAQs here:
http://www.religiousscience.org/ucrs_site/philosophy/faq.html
http://www.rsintl.org/teaching/faq.asp
LOL, religious science, now theres a oxymoron for you.
anyway, for those of you who are serious i have posted the whole book and some FAQs all free of charge. enjoy :)
peace
Ever notice that when someone wants to tell you their religious beliefs, they never want to hear yours?
I expected quite a bit of debate/discussion about the very existence of God, but as I mentioned in the article, all religious texts, so-called gospel and scripture, throughout history, was written by mortal humans - most claiming to speak for God. The Torah, the Koran and the Holy Bible are but the major examples. Translations through myriad languages, littered with substantial contradictions, missing who knows what and, in the New Testiment at least, re-assembled by King James, I'd never be able to adopt a life's doctrine, belief system or philosophy based on what is, essentially, a handbook for humanity that is of suspect origins.
Anything of great power and potential that is touched by men will be subverted at best - and perverted at worst. Six-thousand years of recorded history is rife with examples and humans seldom divorce from undisclosed motives and agendas.
And any person of faith, even those of differing denoninations within a given faith, must carefully pick, choose, endorse and defend what aspects of scripture to hold dear - and what aspects that will be conveniently ignored. This is essential, there is no way around it. The contradictions are fundamental, they are countless and do not involve matters on the periphery.
Even if there is no God, there may still be a Bob. One could seek the Bob-particle, carrier of the slack-force, as described in Church of the SubGenius teachings.
http://www.subgenius.com/
Such particles may accumulate inside small droplets of tetrahydrocannibinol. One of the SubGenius methods for obtaining slack is by inhaling smoke containing such droplets. ;)
A slight variation of the Millikan oil-drop experiment should suffice to determine whether slack is quantized, the minimum amount of it, and whether it follows an inverse-square force law.
And they found that the values measured were always exact multiples of the same number. They interpreted this as the charge on a single electron at 1.602 × 10âˆ'19 coulomb (SI unit for electric charge). Another example of the countless aspects of nature dismissed as "just the way things are". All denoting mere happenstance, but most importantly, unequivical proof that the concept of God - or Bob - or design - is ostensibly absurd.
The absence of evidence being far from evidence of absence - except in many things science, it appears. If they can't find it, it's still to be taken for granted. If it's not explained or understood - it's still mere accident - only another aspect of the 'meaningless' properties found throughout nature.
Of course, in retrospect, what the scriptures, gospels and holy texts [especially in the hands of man and institution] have managed to do to spirituality aspects out the galore, who can blame science in it's attemt to fill the credibility vacuum?
Would Heisenberg be any more certain, in the modern day, with his uncertaintly principle?
In regards to tetrahydrocannabinol, despite the use of 'doood' quite a bit and extensive crunching noises - even with nary an ancient text in the vicinity, contemplation of a potential Bob or close facsimile seems widespread.