Here's what I've got right now on my Vehicle -
*Hydrogen Generator with PWM circuit / device. I've had one on each of my 2 vehicles for the last year and I'm getting 0 - 10% increased fuel economy, sometimes losing fuel economy (presumably the combination of HHO and Gas being burned raises the exhaust temp and causes the computer to dump more fuel in the mix)
As I develop this system I discover additional information such as retarding the timing to TDC.
My vehicle factory spec timing is around 16 degrees before TDC. Right now I don't have the extra cash for a racing engineered timing control unit with in dash controller, so I think back to simple ICE dynamics - spark plug gap fine tunes igntion timing - smaller than oem gap - more advance than factory specs, bigger than oem gap - more timing retard than factory specs (because the spark takes longer to travel over the distance).
Here's the problem with doing this to a gasoline engine - too small of a gap and the timing is too far advanced and you run the risk of pre-ignition / detonation or not running at all. Too big of a gap and the reverse happens - too inefficient of a burn or the engine will not run at all. I could be wrong, but this is my general understanding.
I drive about 300 miles back and forth to work in any give week, so I'll post results of this improvement next week.
Others have added EIFE, MAP sensor and O2 sensor modifications. My goal is 100% HHO / Water fueled engine, so in the end I won't be needing those sensors anyways I'll just need the computer to keep the engine running.
Quote from: magifesq on January 06, 2009, 02:03:54 AM
As I develop this system I discover additional information such as retarding the timing to TDC.
Hydroxy burns very rapidly indeed. Therefore correct ignition retarding is vital. Try this:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf
Paul.
hmm it is many factors that play along.First of all type of ignition system.Spark plug gap is a very important factor in engine performance,fuel efficiency and behaviour over rpm's.Gap will have more influence on combustion process itself rather than timing.For example u cannot expect plug with smaller gap to fire(advance timing) before there is electricity supplied to it.What u can expect is that i will fire somehow faster because it needs now less voltage to ionize the gap.Just how much faster depends on the voltage rising curve on the output of ignitor.I would expect it to be unsubstantial difference from original gap setting.The same in the other direction(retarding) u cannot expect plug to fire when there is no electricity on it supplied from ignitor/
Smaller spark plug gap can cause pre-ignition or/and detonation leading to engine damage in hard cases(or the CPU will sense it by detonation sensor and will advance ignition timing leaving u with lower economy and worse performance).Advanced timing will cause ur sparkplug tips to get hotter,retarding to get cooler(so type of the plug will possibly have to be changed or it will wear off faster/clog with carbon residues) Too much gap can result in a higher rate of misfires noticeable loss of power and poor economy.Bigger spark gap needs higher voltage,that is especially true under high load and high rev's.Also higher voltage will get ur spark life decrease significantly.Bigger gap will put more problems with engine starting(so u need to spend more electricity to start it up->u will have to use extra fuel to recharge the battery).
Some of this statements are true for old cars with distributor ignitors,some of them won't stay true for electronic ignitors.Anyhow i won't to make u sensitive that spark plug is not the best place to search for timing adjustments,because u may end up with cancelling of all benefits u aim to achieve.If u want to have expected results u have to play it professional way,wen u will go full HHO nothing will save u from remapping.
Adjusting static timing is not even half of the way..The whole map of ignition has to be adjusted to the new conditions.Ok i don't want to rewrite what i wrote before in other posts around here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4424.0
PS it is EFIE not EIFE.
Good Reading. I'm sure you're correct that these efi/ecu setups are more complicated to adapt than carburetor cdi setups. I'll make a system to fit my Honda VT1100 and work the timing from the pulse coil to see how much the bike is affected by the HHO gas. I know this - after the spark plug gap modification my truck will not start or run without the hydrogen, however when I unplug the fuel rail sub harness the whole truck dies. Is there perhaps a safety device in the fuel system or the electronics that shuts the whole engine down if unplugged or if too much pressure is in the lines?
hi guys
i have a generator that runs on pure hho. its timing is not far from the manufacturers setup due to the way i feed it the gas.
first off be aware that generators have no computer, sensors etc.
the generators i build have a basic electronic timing circuit, this allows me 360 degree control of the timing so i can literally make it spark whenever i want.
the gas is fed with an lpg carb, this carb basically opens a small valve when it gets good airflow, more airflow = more fuel.
by setting the pressure of the storage chamber to 30psi this gives me a very good pressure to the engine and allows for timing etc
the engine is fed a 15psi @ 12lpm this amount of gas works out to about an 80:1 air/fuel ratio.
this ratio allows the engine to remain cooler whilst keeping its near origional timing.
i am currently in the process of converting a smart car to run on hydrogen along the same concept as the generaor. i will be getting rid of the injectors and lambda sensor as they will be made redundant but the rest of the engine should remain active.
i can see no reason why a remap should have to be carried out as long as tweaked to each engine, i have figured that if you want to adapt an engine to run on hydrogen then use of compressed gas or lpg system is great.
Quote from: magifesq on January 06, 2009, 11:57:38 PM
Good Reading. I'm sure you're correct that these efi/ecu setups are more complicated to adapt than carburetor cdi setups. I'll make a system to fit my Honda VT1100 and work the timing from the pulse coil to see how much the bike is affected by the HHO gas. I know this - after the spark plug gap modification my truck will not start or run without the hydrogen, however when I unplug the fuel rail sub harness the whole truck dies. Is there perhaps a safety device in the fuel system or the electronics that shuts the whole engine down if unplugged or if too much pressure is in the lines?
can u explanin what is sub harness? sorry but english is not my mother tongue, so i don't get what u exacly r disconnecting.
@Hydro-Cell
My car runs on LPG and so did other ones i had.U r describing some first or second generation system with expander warmed up by engine cooling liquid and intake mixer(like Lavato is producing in Italy).Yep it is suitable for HHO but the volumetric effiecncy of the ICE goes down because of the mixer venturi restriciton in the intake and gaseous fuel replacing the intake air.Nice about HHO is that it actually carries its own oxygen so the volumetric efficiency can be compensated.Straight hydrogen will not have this option.
But to the point.
Generator u r describing is designed to operate in quasi stationary state.It would surprise me if it has any vacuum(load) or rpm ignition advancement/retardation mechanism.That is why u have no problem with just adjusting static ignition,but any modern engine made for varying speeds and loads has an advancement curve for ignition timing in function or rpm and throttle position(or indirectly via vacuum in intake manifold).
May it be by mechanical springs with counterweights or programmed in the ignition maps.It makes it logical that u need to adjust this characteristics for stechiometric hydrogen burning with its much higher combustion speeds.Howewer if u come to the lean enough burning, u may get away with what u have at the factory,but punished with low power of the ICE...i don't think it makes much sense to ride at 1/3 of the rated power as opposed to remapping and enjoying what u can get out of it.
I took a moment to dig through all of ur other posts around this forum.I am not sure if u r using AFR in volume or by mass and whenever it is according to air or oxygen.Seems to me u use fuel to air ration in calculations for gasoline by volume.And for hydrogen by volume related to air/sometmes oxygen.I got confused.I made calculations on this forum already for stechiometric hydrogen in air and HHO in air burrning in ICE.
If ur engine runs ok ,it would say to me u r running lean ,so it makes burning much slower than stechiometric and close to the normal gasoline burning time.
PS: provide a false signal in the lambda socked,otherwise ur CPU will jump to error state.U can buy some of lambda emulators at LPG instalation stations or from the producent.It was a common trick in early LPG injection systems to fool CPU(many authorised instalators just cut the wire through and gasoline operation was problemsatic...yeah that is calle THE service ;D).
@Hydro-Cell
I believe it was in the Colorado videos Stanley Meyers said that the burn rate of hydrogen or hydroxy could be slowed by mixing with ambient air,slowed to the burn rate of gasoline. That could be whats happening with your gens.
Ambient Air, I thought it was CO2 from the exhaust?
could have been maybe watch the vids, never believe check it out whatever it is.
Quote from: Dave45 on January 08, 2009, 06:55:07 PM
@Hydro-Cell
I believe it was in the Colorado videos Stanley Meyers said that the burn rate of hydrogen or hydroxy could be slowed by mixing with ambient air,slowed to the burn rate of gasoline. That could be whats happening with your gens.
Do you have a link?
hi all
my engine doesnt use hho, its pure hydrogen. This hydrogen is burnt with air at a ratio of 80:1. This keeps the engine cooler and the timing almost the same as petrol. the downfall as said before by creativity is that you loose power. this is correct. but in my opinion without doing tests its not a massive amount. the engine was designed for a 4kva generator with this generator attached the engine would put out near 1kva when the load was increased it cut out. This is due to the fat there is no regulation in fuel so as the generator needs to put out more power it has a lack of fuel to do so. I have since fitted an lpg carburettor which works using airflow as the airflow increases due to the requirement of more power it will allow more fuel. this worked reasonably well. not great but it was an achievment.
the engine is being fitted onto a go-kart chassis and from this i hope to find ot various results. i hope this could be a step in the right direction for hydrogen on demand powered cars.
Hydrogen is highly reactive - what, in all the designs that I've seen, do they do to stop the freshly made hho to h20 from rusting the inside of the engine?
I think that we'll see that oil is a necessity for engines, regardless of hho or gas, or diesel, etc. Perhaps loosing the internal combustion aspects and going back to the steam engine would make more sense! Or dropping the engines down to the hit-or-miss style of engines used in farm equipment back in the early 1900's.
Consider the sterling cycle engine, rather than combusting the hho, simply burn it in its entirety in a chamber and reclaim the water; use a sterling engine to generate motion..or co-motion, as an assitive technology.
I swear, ICE's get so damn hot as it is. The idea with HHO is that you have a watervapor to HHO ratio that doesn't cause massive explosions - those ceramic disk foggers might do the trick. It needs to be an HHO mist. with a ratio capable of detonation and possibly a higher voltage spark to ensure coverage.
Quote from: Dave45 on January 09, 2009, 09:04:13 PM
could have been maybe watch the vids, never believe check it out whatever it is.
We're both correct - he describes the exhaust as 'ambient air' around the flame as it burns.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on January 10, 2009, 11:06:05 AM
Hydrogen is highly reactive - what, in all the designs that I've seen, do they do to stop the freshly made hho to h20 from rusting the inside of the engine?
*Nothing is necessary @ 2400+ degrees in the combustion chamber it goes out of the engine as a super-heated vapor and returns to steam @ the tailpipe.
I think that we'll see that oil is a necessity for engines, regardless of hho or gas, or diesel, etc. Perhaps loosing the internal combustion aspects and going back to the steam engine would make more sense! Or dropping the engines down to the hit-or-miss style of engines used in farm equipment back in the early 1900's.
*Maybe you're right...is synthetic oil a modified petroleum or something completely different? I would think there would be a way to create a type of non-foaming soap style lubricant to replace oil, as far as engine design, with the push for electric vehicles, it will probably only be a matter of time before ICEs are outlawed regardless of the fuel source.
Consider the sterling cycle engine, rather than combusting the hho, simply burn it in its entirety in a chamber and reclaim the water; use a sterling engine to generate motion..or co-motion, as an assitive technology.
I have a friend who campaigned for that very thing, He's a got a PHD in engineering just a couple states away.
I swear, ICE's get so damn hot as it is -
*yeah, Stanley Meyer re-introduced the exhuast mainly to use the CO2 as an inert gas and regulate the temperature.
The idea with HHO is that you have a watervapor to HHO ratio that doesn't cause massive explosions - those ceramic disk foggers might do the trick.
*Not sure where you get that from - HHO is just h2 and 0 from elecrolysis.
It needs to be an HHO mist. with a ratio capable of detonation and possibly a higher voltage spark to ensure coverage.
*I've totally removed the upper 'arm' from the electrode of my spark plugs in my truck - difficult to start until the HHO his the combustion chamber then comes right to life.
I hope these answers help fill in some gaps for you.
Quote from: magifesq on January 10, 2009, 05:53:52 PM
*Maybe you're right...is synthetic oil a modified petroleum or something completely different? I would think there would be a way to create a type of non-foaming soap style lubricant to replace oil, as far as engine design, with the push for electric vehicles, it will probably only be a matter of time before ICEs are outlawed regardless of the fuel source.
We should probably consider the synthetics as having a fossil fuel origin with a highly enriched or refined end product. Almost, but not, all of the chemical industry uses byproducts of oil, whether it's to transport the goods, of to make them. ( sad really, but i don't know of any storks delivering newspapers or the mail, etc.) THe oil industry will survive even if we stop using gasoline - in fact, if we did, the products we might see come out of that industry might just astound us "why didn't we do this sooner?" in other words. ...something like superplastics of motors made of pyrolitic carbon.
There are plenty of other oils available ...it's really their ability to maintain properties under hear. A higher temperature oil is desireable - consider the nature of organic oils - they're come from plants of creature that produce the oils - they're essentially a storage mechanism for biological energy and if something is making oils which it cannot use, it will eventually outmode that production in favor of some other storage mechanism which it can use - like sugar; sugar not being good for an engine, ..it's highly unlikely that we'll find a plant or organism that's going to make an oil with high temperature resilience unless we find it in a hot spot where these oils won't cause it to float to the surface and cool off. We're more likely to genetically engineer a bacteri, which produces tolerant oil - at which point we could have a massive crisis on our hands - who wants to clean up a never ending oil spill?
Personally, i think that harvesting energy under water in some region where there's little life and lots of undersea current is the best idea. Per surface area, water outmodes air by atleast a factor of ten - making an undersea turbine out of noncorrosive low maintenance parts would yield more electricity per pound of machine than would any given wind turbine.
And, as for the hho mist, what I meant was a combination of H, HO, and H2O ion a ratio which would satisfy a lower combustion temperature or some other parameter where equivalent work is done. A water vapor can be formed using high frequency agitation of the surface of water ( a submersible ceramic disk oscillator [fogger] ).
On another note, my check engine light has been on ..evap codes, nothing seems wrong and gas mileage is better than it has been. Sometimes I don't wonder if the check engine light shouldn't just be replace with a dollar symbol.
In second passing; on the other hand )) ..reintroducing the exhaust would reincorporate h2o as it stands, and there may be no need for a fogger. If Stanly Meyer were indeed using only water, there would be no co2 exhaust unless oil were burning ..am i not right in this regard?
You may be right, I don't have all the end emissions chemistry/physics down pat. I read or was told somewhere HHO + spark + ambient air = H2O + CO2 - kinda like when we exhale we don't use gasoline lol.
Quote from: magifesq on January 10, 2009, 11:12:51 PM
You may be right, I don't have all the end emissions chemistry/physics down pat. I read or was told somewhere HHO + spark + ambient air = H2O + CO2 - kinda like when we exhale we don't use gasoline lol.
we use sugar( for example) that we eat and carbon comes from there...our muscles burn glucosis into CO2 and water.
ICE is burning some oil that was left on the feet of the exhaust valves,and on the surface of the cilinder.Next to it the various nitrogen oxides come out of it(because of the high temperatures of combustion).So indoor use of pure hydrogen ICE should be avoided anyhow.
Quote from: Creativity on January 08, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
can u explanin what is sub harness? sorry but english is not my mother tongue, so i don't get what u exacly r disconnecting.
Sub harness - electrical small harness that plugs into the main wiring harness
Quote from: Creativity on January 11, 2009, 11:04:55 AM
we use sugar( for example) that we eat and carbon comes from there...our muscles burn glucosis into CO2 and water.
ICE is burning some oil that was left on the feet of the exhaust valves,and on the surface of the cilinder.Next to it the various nitrogen oxides come out of it(because of the high temperatures of combustion).So indoor use of pure hydrogen ICE should be avoided anyhow.
Would it not be better for the engine to burn HHO or H2 than gasoline since gasoline would wash away some of the oil each time the engine fires and H2, even water does not?
Quote from: magifesq on January 10, 2009, 11:12:51 PM
You may be right, I don't have all the end emissions chemistry/physics down pat. I read or was told somewhere HHO + spark + ambient air = H2O + CO2 - kinda like when we exhale we don't use gasoline lol.
h2o, n2, co2 and other trace gases will be present in the intake air as it is.
Wouldn't there be a little increased CO2 as a natural result of the combustion process, or would the implosion of H2 be so different from normal combustion that its not a factor?
Quote from: magifesq on January 11, 2009, 08:54:24 PM
Wouldn't there be a little increased CO2 as a natural result of the combustion process, or would the implosion of H2 be so different from normal combustion that its not a factor?
Carbon result from the presence of carbon in the hydrocarbon chains in oil and gasoline, If your not using oil, and you using brown's gas ( hho ), then the results of combustion should be steam and nothing more. Since the above mention gases are already present, then they'll be in the exhaust as it is. I wonder if emission tests consider this? Unfortunately, I think that the results of hho driven ice's is a net higher usage of oil as a result of h or ho reacting with the hydrocarbons in the oil. The only way to test is to run without oil ..and with hho, this is mechanical suicide. A clean burning engine that's an ice, would need to contain the full exhaust, recycle it, and run accordinly, and co2 present would become a buffer, but it would most likely be present already, and increase over time with the expenditure of the oil.
case in point, it's not impossible.
Better still though is a completely closed system of burning the hho gas, and using a sterling cycle to generate electricity. but the efficiency of this system is called into question with regard to how much electricity would be generated versus how much was used to create the hho. a whole slew of techniques might be employed to do such a thing. ..thermopiles, a sterling cycle, flywheel, a condensing unit. ...
I've got this idea for a turbo hho ice, rather split the turbo and add a portion of exhaust back into the intake while boosting the output. maybe a little over the top. But a refrigerant might be used to create a cold and a hot side where peltier cells or sterling cycles could be used to bolster the rough electrical output.
Hydrogen reacts faster when it combusts - it's more like an explosion. for example, hydrogen detonating is to gasoline and gasoline is to lighter fluid. If you can tell the difference between igniting lighter fluid and gas, then you'll know what I mean. Hydrogen is quick when it comes to hho. ...which is why is suggested dampening with water vapor or exhaust. gasoline is links of hydrocarbons - it's like a whole other story when it comes to combustion.
Good points, I'm working on a direct hydrogen injection via the spark plug hole to eliminate hho losses in the intake. I think the key to running on hho has got to be in being very efficient as well as effective. Losses have got to be minimized. I'm sure feeding hho into the manifold gets plenty into the intake, some of the hydrogen molecules stick on and into different surfaces they come into contact with.
Quote from: magifesq on January 12, 2009, 11:24:22 AM
Good points, I'm working on a direct hydrogen injection via the spark plug hole to eliminate hho losses in the intake. I think the key to running on hho has got to be in being very efficient as well as effective. Losses have got to be minimized. I'm sure feeding hho into the manifold gets plenty into the intake, some of the hydrogen molecules stick on and into different surfaces they come into contact with.
I've you're going to do this, then drop down to a single piston two stroke engine, perhaps modify the timing cam to be closed during injection. Unfortunately for 2 cycles, there's no oil reservoir. ..this may be a good thing. You may eventually have to add an oil reservoir to the system..and it's not car engine, but they're cheap to come by.
There are single piston 4 stroke engines which have their own oil reservoirs, however, they're three times as costly. I would reccomend using a leaf blower, you can simply replace the fan blade area with a generator device. Or keep the fan blade and make a space heater :P.
I purchased a little 75 cc pitbike (4 stroke) for my experiments - once I get it running on the alternative fuel, all I need to do is scale up the production.
hi guys
i have a gx390 honda engine running on H2.
i have also had a smart car running on just h2 aswell.
on single piston engines watch out for the waste spark. if you need help on getting past it then pmme. i have a 2:1 ratio gearbox on mine to do this, and the spark timing is set from the output gear.
Thanks, I may have to take you up on that, this week I made a direct injection setup going to the cylinder to bypass the whole flashback issue. Are those vehicles running on H2 or HHO? Do you know if the rich O2 will greatly affect the cylinder head temp on a HHO booster?
the real question is whether or not the vehicles are direct injection or carburetored [sp?]. There will be an affective difference when using H2 or HHO.