Quote from: hoptoad on June 24, 2008, 05:31:14 AM
@Aether

I just thought I'd re word my previous post to hopefully clarify it a little better.?  See below.

Although the magnetic field surrounding a current carrying wire is in phase with the current that is producing it, the reluctance of the ferromagnetic core causes a lag between changes to it's own magnetic flux and changes in current through the coil.

Cheers

Yes I got what you meant and agree obviously.
The point I would make is that hysteresis lag slows the rotor and I can't see the shorted generator coil change that although maybe it can?

Quote from: aether22 on June 24, 2008, 06:05:06 AM
Yes I got what you meant and agree obviously.
The point I would make is that hysteresis lag slows the rotor and I can't see the shorted generator coil change that although maybe it can?

A22 - MAKE A LIST OF ALL THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A HC COIL AND A HV COIL.
THEN NARROW IT DOWN TO WHAT CHANGES AS FREQUENCY CHANGES.
THE YOU HAVE A STARTING POINT IN YOUR ANALYSIS.

HOW DOES AETHER PRODUCTION VARY FROM A HC COIL TO A HV COIL?

T

Proximity effect is the tendency for current to flow in loops or concentrated distributions due to the presence of magnetic fields generated by nearby conductors. In transformers and inductors, proximity effect losses are generally more significant than skin effect losses. In Litz wire windings, proximity effect may be sub-divided into internal proximity effect (the effect of other currents within the bundle) and outer proximity effect ( the effect of the current in other bundles). The reason for twisting or weaving Litz wire, rather than just grouping fine conductors together, is to ensure that the strand currents are equal. Simple twisted bunched conductor wire can accomplish this adequately where proximity effect would be the only significant problem with solid wire. Where skin effect would also be a problem, more complex Litz wire constructions can be used to ensure equal strand currents. Therefore, in a well-designed construction, strand currents are nearly equal.

concentrated distributions

I HAVE BEEN PLAYING AROUND WITH THIS IDEA LATELY BY DELIBERATELY WINDING MY COILS IN A NON-UNIFORM MANNER TO CREATE CONCENTRATED FIELDS IN DIFFERENT SPOTS ON THE CORE TO SEE ANY UNUSUAL EFFECTS.

QuoteNo, Tim Conway as Mr. Tudball on Carol Burnett Show. Only took baby steps.
L

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF LARRYC!

Quote from: CRANKYpants on June 23, 2008, 07:27:58 AM
WHO SAYS IT IS IN PHASE?

The phasing I was talking about in this instance is the phase relationship between the (induced) current in the shorted coil and the magnetic field that surrounds the wire of the coil. The establishment says so !  Who am I to argue   

It is a different phase relationship to the direct relationship between the (inducing) magnets and the core, or the relationship between coil current and the magnetic field it wants to create in the core in opposition to the field induced by the magnets.

Quote from: CRANKYpants
WHY WOULD A HC COIL BE IN PHASE - AND CAUSE DECELERATION.
AND HV COILS BE IN PHASE AND CAUSE ACCELERATION BUT ONLY ABOVE A CERTAIN FREQUENCY?

Neither the HC coil current nor the HV coil current is in phase with voltage produced by the inducing magnets. They both will have current lagging the voltage. At short circuit they are both at their maximum phase shift for that particular frequency. It's a matter of how many degrees.
For any given frequency each core will be out of phase, but the actual phase angle is dependent on the impedance and resistance of the coil.
The higher the impedance (inductive reactance) to resistance ratio is, the greater the phase angle. The maximum (theoretical) phase angle is 90 degrees.

The HV coil will have a higher phase angle for any given frequency than the HC coil up to a maximum of 90 degrees, so it will react more favourably at lower frequencies than the HC coil.

Because your HC coils are very high guage, low impedance coils, you will need a very high frequency for the acceleration effect to kick in.
Give the rotor enough revs and magnet pairs to increase frequency, and eventually it will, because the impedance will rise with increased frequency, and with it the impedance/resistance ratio will increase, resulting in increasing phase angle.

There is a threshold phase angle at which acceleration will manifest. The hard thing to predict here is the actual threshold angle for any given inductor.
Because the effect is non linear, it is hard to study (as you have been finding out) and even harder to formulate a basis for mathematical behavioural predictions.

For your current practical and experimental requirements, you seem to have found impedance ranges you are happy with.

Quote from: CRANKYpants
MY HUNCH HAS ALWAYS SUGGESTED THE HV COIL'S INCREASED  (PUT YOUR OWN IDEA HERE)
IS CAUSING ENOUGH OF A DELAY TO CREATE ACCELERATION. IT MAY BE A DELAY IN FIELD PRODUCTION
OR CORE LAG ETC - BUT THE EFFECT IS REAL.

A delay is what a current phase angle is. A delay between pressure (induced voltage) and reaction to that pressure (induced current). The higher the impedance the higher the delay.

Quote from: CRANKYpants
REAL ENOUGH TO OVERCOME LENZ'S LAW EFFECTS (AT NO ENERGY COST OR LESS) AND LIGHT THE LIGHTBULB AND DELIVER POWER TO A LOAD WHEN NEITHER OF THESE WERE POSSIBLE PRIOR TO ENGAGING THE HV COILS.

Yes it's real, and potentially very useful !

Quote from: CRANKYpants
GENERALLY I CANNOT GET ACCELERATION BELOW 75ish VOLTS TO THE MOTOR STATOR.
WITH 36 MAGNETS ON THE ROTOR AND 3 TIMES THE WEIGHT I AM NOW ABLE TO GET ACCELERATION AT 56 VOLTS TO THE MOTOR WITH A DECREASE IN ROTOR SPEED BUT AN INCREASE IN COIL FREQUENCY.

Your latest test results with increased magnet pairs bears out this dependency on frequency / impedance, with your rotor exhibiting acceleration at a lower RPM and motor voltage, but an overall higher rotor frequency. It is exactly what I predicted to you would happen if you increased the rotor frequency by increasing magnet pairs.

Cheers   .... KneeDeep

Quote from: aether22 on June 24, 2008, 06:05:06 AM
Yes I got what you meant and agree obviously.
The point I would make is that hysteresis lag slows the rotor and I can't see the shorted generator coil change that although maybe it can?

I think the hysterisis lag is a minor though active player in this effect. The current lag and core lag are additive with respect to the timing of the production of counter mmf. The counter mmf produced by the induced current is normally the greatest oppositional factor. A change in the phase of the current results in a change in the phase of the counter mmf.

Cheers