Last skeptical comment on these devices.

It doesn't seem like rocket science to accurately measure input in and out.

Pendulum=Magnet, North on bottom

At the bottom of the pendulum swing is an electromagnet functioning as a 'stator' and is pulsed north upwards everytime the pendulum passes repelling it upwards.

On the hammer side of the equation again you use a magnet lowering and rising inside a coil to generate electrical voltage+current.  If you balance the coil/hammer magnet properly enough electomotive friction should be generated to simulate mechanical load (actually they are the same).

If we use DC current to pulse the electromagnet, adding only the necessary energy to keep the pendulum swinging, and convert the output current to DC, we can easily measure energy in and energy out.

It would also be easy to close the loop and run perpetually.

I'm not going attempt this myself because I'm already fairly certain of the disapointing results, but I would love to see one of the Milkovic advocates prove me wrong.

If COP is even 2, we can still afford to loose half of the energy due to inefficient conversion.

The fact that Milkovic, or anyone else, has not yet performed such a simple test to prove to the world it works is indicative that it won't.  Hell, if it really worked, Milkovic (or somebody) would be running a generator in their backyard selling power to all their neighbors and back to the power grid.

Bottom line is it's not happening.

This really appears to be nothing more than a very efficient lever or pulley system.

QuoteAfter all, and as I have said for a long time, thermodynamic conservation and entropy laws are not very accurate in predicting the way our universe turned out. There seems to be more existing then just the reactions that leads to entropy.....

Very well said. 

But, electric generators have the same efficiency as electric motors (when operated at the optimum frequency). 

My thoughts are that these numbers were based on the Q of his initial system.
If the quality of an oscillator is very high then it can last for a long time without being drained.

It is my belief that there two types of damping effects in this system (as well as in all other oscillators, but one of them is normally always dampened).

The first type is the one that I would always call the negative one. Air resistance, bad bearings, other types of frictions working directly against the movement of the pendulum (or spring or anything else), is always negative for oscillators.

The other type of damping is the one which decides at what level you want to collect useful work in the 2-stage fashion.
Up till that point no energy leaves the system by any large part, but when the kinetic energy of the system reaches a certain level where it moves its support, you will begin to lower its quality and the ratio of energy in/out will lower the more you increase the input.

It is around this area that you can collect work. Below this range nothing will leave the system, and too far above more of it will be lost because of the low Q.
The higher the Q of such a system is, the larger the ratio of energy in versus energy out can be.

This is why working with really large forces and weights, combined with very little pivot movement (as Rhead did) will give a certain amount of work, which has a very high Q and thus almost no losses of energy.


So the COP 12 number is just a certain case. Depending on the construction I believe it can both be well below 12 (even far under 1), but also far above 12. Again, this not a purely simple machine to make, and it relies on the skills of its constructor to have the highest gain possible.
It will be interesting to see how Rhead's development goes 

Julian

Quote from: Charlie_V on October 15, 2009, 04:28:12 PM
Very well said. 

But, electric generators have the same efficiency as electric motors (when operated at the optimum frequency).

Hmm, I have heard otherwise. Or in that case it means that both types are really poor in efficiency.
Here's a good idea. If you want to generate electricity from the Milkovic pendulum, use a ratched design to turn an Ecklin generator. Believe it or not, but they are based on some of the same principles. Flux modulation is parametric oscillation. 

Julian

Could you please explain what an Ecklin Generator is?  Did some quick google searches and all I'm getting is that this is yet another OU device in itself which nobody has ever conclusively tested.