Quote from: woopy on April 06, 2011, 04:18:36 PM
In heat or something else ? in this case the 50 % energy  are fully lost and unrecoverable yes or not . and in this case it is simply not possible to recover them or a part of them , because they are no more there ?? yes or not ?

So my question is , from where  the energy of the Inductor and diode ( "believe circuit"  as Mag named it ) comes from , to recreate much better efficiency in THE SAME ENERGY TRANSFER.

My bench experiment shows around 50 % efficiency in a direct transfer, that is transferring a cap to a cap without any resistance       and about  85 % efficiency by ADDING RESISTANCE OF INDUCTOR AND DIODE

Please explanation

Hi wayne
i do not understand your 200 % gain in your calculation, for me the result is the same , if i charge 2 cap of 10 uF at 10 volts, they store the same energy as those same charged cap mounted in serie     of course as per the bloody 1/2 X CAPACITY X VOLTAGE ^2.

good luck at all

Laurent

The efficiency of the inductor comes from the inductance part of the impedance which does not dissipate heat. Without the inductor, the impedance is the wire resistance + capacitance. With the inductor, the efficiency is demonstrated to be much higher. From what I read about Tesla, he was always thinking of resonance, and its importance may be in storing energy (parallel LC) or transferring of energy (series LC) as shown here and is of importance.

Woopy, since you asked, I just realized my error in the thinking about the parallel to series, there is no change in the total energy. Thanks for pointing it out. Had that mental error for a while.

/Wayne

Laurent,

You are correct. Even though the lead resistance is very low, it is a finite resistance, and therefore will dissipate energy, no matter how small. 50% of the energy in the source will be converted by the wire or leads to thermal energy, even if the wire resistance is only 1 milliOhm. It does not matter what the resistance is, the same 50% will be lost in the wire.

Now, if you introduce an element that can store and release energy in the form of a magnetic field (an inductor), and if this element has a relatively high Q (high inductance to resistance ratio L/R), then you have the right tool to transfer your energy efficiently from the source capacitor to the load capacitor.

If you could make an ideal inductor, your energy transfer would happen with 100% efficiency.

You may find it helpful to read the document attached to this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8334.msg210142#msg210142

poynt99

Quote from: Magluvin on April 05, 2011, 06:16:25 PM
Ok folks.  this is getting nuts.  Good nuts.   ;]

Something that is strange is, the way we think about how a circuit works when we even see it in a schematic.  We forget things or we dont always see the "what ifs" in what is presented.

Remember me saying that it would be difficult to accomplish the switching and conversions of sometimes caps in parallel and then series throughout the process of running a starting source to the end result?

Well I was at work putting circuits together in my head. Well I decided to go against my instincts on something I had thought earlier. ;]

I have only the last part of the circuit to figure, and it is just a bunch of switching. And the timing for cutoff I think I will go with timing from a 555, possibly.

This sounds like we are making things worse. But the results are....

start with a 10uf "capacitance" at 1000v  and process that through 3 stages of Believe Circuit, and we get 1320v into a 10uf "capacitance"

I will disclose this week.  I have the switching down on the 3 stages, and its simple.  Im not pulling a tito here. I just want to see if anyone gets it. Its an important exercise for the mind. It will open a door that you have never walked through and the door is here for the opening.

Tito keeps showing us the radiant energy receivers. And I think that many know of these and believe that you can get free energy there, but wheres the beef?  Not everyone is interested in having 100 wire antenna in their back yards, as he suggested to make 100 of those circuits.  No fun and try portability with that one.
The believe circuit needs no antenna. Just inductors and 1 precharge to get it started. Maybe the antenna can give you the precharge if you dont have a source to begin with.

I am flabbergasted at the level we have gotten to this point. And guess what, with more switching, we can add more stages. 
And get this, with each stage we have less voltage each time. 
I dont believe for 1 single solitary second that we loose anything in power transfers. If there is any, I really dont care cuz I dont see it. 

Common woopy, I know you and forest will figure this out. Run the sim, and start with any voltage you wish, I just like high as we lose less from voltage drop of the diode overall.
Then run 3 stages, 1 at a time. after each stage, reset the sim, replace the caps with succeeding larger values of double previous and just edit the source to the last voltage gotten, as I have described earlier. But run 3 stages.

At the end, what do you do with a "capacitance" of 40uf at 350v to get 1320v into a 10uf cap.   If I told you that an 80uf "capacitance" at about 225v would give us even more, would you believe?  lol

Looks like we are losing here. lol   Just think.  My feet love me and no longer fear being on a plate.   

If you give in and cannot wait, I will tell.  Just give it a shot.  I have given some clear clues. But I wont tito anyone here.  Sorry Teets. Its just how it is.   

Thinking caps men, the party has begun.

Mags believes  You betcha

Actually for hundreds or even thousand of the same pattern, we always have a shortcut, i just said that for those lazy ok ? 
like in mathematic equation, there is very long method and there is very short method, but one answer, as simple as that 

OK! sorry but we don't actually need stages by stages technique, but its okay for the meantime.
its just actually a matter of D,C2,R technique we can reach that.   

As i always say battery is the best and reliable source as a starter.

no worry bro, i'll just be at the back watching and i am very very happy no matter where you come up 

Even you discover the best secret in coil technique then i am very very happy, no worries bro.   

sorry for my interference don't worry i'll just cross by

goodluck happy scruitinizing 

Hey All

Well, after beating my head in since yesterday morning, I realize a big mistake I had been making along the way. It was the calculating the caps in series that gave us over the top voltages.

Big mistake.  I had several tomes caught myself and kept doing it.

Yesterday mornings posts were where I had came to my senses on this.

I now have a chart made up to reference these issues in the future.

I have to apologize to all and especially Point and Tito as I had, in my feelings of big accomplishment, wrote some things that should not have been written.

So, the only thing that we have gained here is compensation for losses through transfer from source to receiver.  Where normally we would lose 50% total, we can mostly eliminate that loss.

Its crazy that if we have a 10uf at 10v, connect another cap and each cap only holds 1/4 of the original energy. Total half.  Sucks dont it?

Maybe it is better that we think of it in terms of tanks of air pressure than weighted water.

An issue that still sticks from yesterdays posts is, if we lost 50% in heat losses, how does the inductor overcome those losses?

Is the heat not generated any more with the inductor? As Point had said, that the inductor stored enough energy to overcome the heat losses. Well, if energy from the source was used to get the inductor going, did the inductor only consume half of the energy from the source and had the ability to overcome those losses? How is that?

Im not nearly done here. Even with my big mistake, last night I went through it all very thoroughly as to dotting my Ps and Qs.  I ran through the 3 and 4 stages, and from a source of 1kv, still ended up in the mid to upper 900v range in a 10uf cap.

So have we gained anything? Have we avoided loss in energy transfer? Well it certainly looks like it. Can we save by using inductors in our circuits to avoid losses that exist everywhere?

Can we run a load with this circuit to get 2 times as much work done from our source, by overcoming these 50% losses?

Im not going to bring myself down over the mistake. It was a hard and good lesson learned.  it wont be made again.

Ok, again, really sorry for bringing any false hopes here, as it truly was not my intention.

Mags

One more thing

I did a test on the sim. A direct transfer from 1 cap to another wit a diode and very low ohm resistor. It gave a complete transfer from on to another.  I increased the resistance ad we fell back down to half the voltage in each.

I will do some real tests tonight on this. Were the wires acting as the inductor in this case, along with all the conductive plates in the cap and the diode?

So if I cannot get a complete transfer in the real world, did the sim perform a superconductive process with the very low ohm resistor?

Mags