When I open a capacitor can, the inside of the cans are very shinny and protected by the oil that is inside that is used for that purpose, and are not oxidized at all. The outside of the cans are protected by a hermetically sealed plastic coating, and are also very shinny.  If there is oxidation there, I do not see it. You can check this out for yourself. And to further the make the point, the aluminum as well as the copper both conduct very well, both ways. Not so with the semiconductor layer, which is a non electrical conductor, and only allows ion flow to filter through it. But does not not allow electrical current through. 
  When using copper for the anodes I make sure the metal is shinny, and also add the conductive grease on it to prevent further oxidation. As in only a matter of a few hours the metals can start to corrode when exposed to the very humid salt filled air that is always present here next to the beach.

   I am not saying that there is no benefit to the semiconductor idea, as I am really hoping that that will be one of the ways of obtaining the higher output, that I'm not currently seeing now. But I would be more inclined to get behind it if there was more than just the same two volts or less, and some mA involved. As that can be obtained as Brad has shown by just holding the two metals, or by putting two metals in a glass of water.
   I am not saying this to counter any thoughts about the semiconductor idea, just adding my two cents.  As I could be wrong on this, and that the metals are acting as semiconductors even when they are conducting fine both ways, and are still very shinny,  but I doubt it.
 
   

Quote from: NickZ on November 10, 2011, 04:40:55 PM
  When I open a capacitor can, the inside of the cans are very shinny and protected by the oil that is inside that is used for that purpose, and are not oxidized at all. The outside of the cans are protected by a hermetically sealed plastic coating, and are also very shinny.  If there is oxidation there, I do not see it. You can check this out for yourself. And to further the make the point, the aluminum as well as the copper both conduct very well, both ways. Not so with the semiconductor layer, which is a non electrical conductor, and only allows ion flow to filter through it. But does not not allow electrical current through. 
  When using copper for the anodes I make sure the metal is shinny, and also add the conductive grease on it to prevent further oxidation. As in only a matter of a few hours the metals can start to corrode when exposed to the very humid salt filled air that is always present here next to the beach.

   I am not saying that there is no benefit to the semiconductor idea, as I am really hoping that that will be one of the ways of obtaining the higher output, that I'm not currently seeing now. But I would be more inclined to get behind it if there was more than just the same two volts or less, and some mA involved. As that can be obtained as Brad has shown by just holding the two metals, or by putting two metals in a glass of water.
   I am not saying this to counter any thoughts about the semiconductor idea, just adding my two cents.  As I could be wrong on this, and that the metals are acting as semiconductors even when they are conducting fine both ways, and are still very shinny,  but I doubt it.
 

I understand Nick and my attempt at trying to improve the process didn't go over well at least you didn't see it as a suggestion. I was trying to make you see what little effect we were getting from the captret. These units do way beyond what the captret do.

The oxide layer is exactly what I have seen in the capacitor that I pulled apart. It had I believe a water borax solution as a wet electrolyte. This way if a short happens the borax instantly heals the oxide layer to repair the breach. Why exactly do you think the electrolytic caps are polarized? Why have most seen a rather weak recharging effect from the electrolytics. The reason for the weakness is the layer is not big enough. In my newest unit it uses a big gauge aluminum wire coiled around a 5.6 mm graphite lead, artist quality. This coil is situated in a borax coating on the aluminum with epsom salt and salt substitute(potassium). I par boiled the glass container the coil is in until all the crystals went away then set it to cool. I am waiting at the moment for it to solidify slowly. The water is being ejected into the air as the crystals form then fall down to pile up and grow into a mass. I will have to do the process again I think because a fissure is forming going down through the mass to repair the fissure but it is already showing higher voltage then the IB glue cells that I made. The aluminum looks very bright and shinny in the borax salt combo..

I will see as this thing dries out what it will settle at and what the current capability is once it is fully setup. I figure another couple of days and it will start putting out a good amount of current. We will see...

The only reason I listened to John B about the diode is because it has been proven by him and others on this forum. When you have a diode it has a bias level to hold it open. Thats what the differences in the metals are for or in my case 1.09v for graphite and aluminum. I have seen higher but they tend to settle at 1.09 volts. Getting magnesium and adding alum will protect the magnesium and the cupric copper will protect the copper. The only thing we use water for is to solidify the structure after heating it up. In that process it will expell the water to the base levels of the crystals. Once that is done galvanics go away and the general operating levels should maintain the water flow within the crystals without touching the metal. Yes the water flows within the crystals. Think of it like a circular fluid pump. use a motivator and it pressurizes and circulates transferring charge through the cell. now since Aluminum acts real well to the electric fields it induces charge as the water flows by it inductively. And the can or other aluminum shield sucks charges from the environment to be picked up statically by the water. This flows twords the center electrode depositing the potential the water is carrying. Since most of the crystals we are using use oxygen as a transporter of the charges seeing that hydrogen bonds to the crystalline structure holding it together and the oxygen is free to move to the next crystal. either way we are getting a results that is not in the end galvanic.

I would suggest that any of these cells be fully dried before using as using them before they start growing is detrimental to the flow paths inside of the growing crystal cell. Just let the crystals setup before using the cell. This way the potential of the metals will fully bias the crystals and dry in that condition. In effect we are creating a static electric field magnet and it must be rigid or it will destroy the pathways before they have set hard. It takes time for this to happen.

Nick All I'm suggesting is to anodize the aluminum before you use it. This way the diode is set and ready to go. Add the carbon(electric conductor not current) and the crystal layers act like reeds in a wood wind. They vibrate because of the flow of charges flowing past them through electric induction. These crystals you are using (quarts) are highly piezoelectric. They respond to electric fields as well as causing them.

This brings me to the shape of the aluminum can. If it tapers twords the open end it raises the potential by constriction of the electric field or charges. This can cause higher power. The outside of the can must be kept clean and free of oxidation. This could be done by a drying agent like silica  beads maybe.

 I started thinking about the video IB showed earlier about water and surfaces. I started to know actually how these crystals form. They are built on the crystalline water from the previous plane of a previous crystal. It builds the lattice  via this method and ejects the bulk water in the process. Just like in the video there are layers that form. They are distinct and when viewed with contrasting dyes you can see the aether in motion as it flows through the matter of the solid and into the crystalline water in the picture. It forms channels and starts twisting like a reverse tornado. The resulting formations are based on the actual crystal structure in all matter except biological matter and it has a signature that is broadcasting it's signature to the environment. The layers above are where the crystalline sheets are forming and falling below onto the matter. They stack via flow induction and suck to the matter after all sides are formed. The tip must be blunt because of the flow of the aether blasts it away dissolving it with the crystalline water as it drags the water behind it loosely. Oxidation must stop at the surface between two layers nearest to the plane of the matter or the first layer. When we add super saturated bulk water it has a lot of material to use to build from the initial crystal structure present in the matter also know as a seed crystal.

The thing with piezoelectric matter is it conducts static well and amplifies the speed of the static or charges via geometry and diminishing surface area at the tip. Static in motion is energy personified. And water is respondent to static charges. Try the comb near the faucet experiment and you will see.

I'm hoping you understand how I see this. Does it sound right?

  Does it sound right?
   Well, I can't really answer that, as to speculate on what I have not done would not be too prudent. What I can say is that we need to make the cells stronger, much stronger, or we may as well use the regular batteries that work very well.  I don't feel that we need to totally understand how the cells work, in order to build them. I think that although research is important, the hand on approach can be the best way to get there. Especially by taking advantage of what other have already done and have learned, so we don't waist as much time going through the same thing.
  What we know for sure is that Mg and Carbon are the two best strongest opposing electronegative sources, and since carbon can't be doped, the next best thing is copper, or gold perhaps, or gold platted copper.
  As we are still in the infancy of these cells we must continue to experiment, sometimes blindly, and sometimes coping what has been shown to work. But, it should be fun, as that is also why we are here.
  Really what matters is how much output we can obtain, and if that output can be sustained at a usable working level, without dropping, as most cell have done. So, let's keep at it, John B has been leading the way, with his 8 led carbonate cell. He is devoted to the cause, and is sharing what he can.
 

 Yes nick the Carbonate cells work but they are dependent on water as a consumption medium. If you read up on Sodium Carbonate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate --you will see what John did. Nothing surprising there.

Your idea is very very intelligent. We know there is something surrounding matter polarizing that area. So the aluminum can polarizes the flow within the aluminum and slightly around it. The carbon is highly resistant to current flow. It blocks it but not the potential applied to it. If you want to increase the power then add the dielectric layer to the polarized matter and it will be harder to reverse bias the diode that is created on the aluminum. You can still use it dry as you do. This should vastly increase your output because it can not leak out backwards and has only one way to go out, the positive electrode.. Think of it like this. You are creating a flow and the surface area connected to the environment is way bigger then the internal space. This causes a pressure in the space. The carbon conducts the voltage only and very little current if any. This potential has the ability to squeeze and raise it's potential. Adding the crystalline matter only helps to induce more potential as well from it's piezoelectric and static capabilities. The "current" problems we are seeing come from the ability to hold the charges within the can. Adding a layer of this oxide will reject most charges from going in the reverse direction increasing it's capability to pressurize and push loads of higher current. Also including an end cap with small seal that the positive electrode goes through might help in containing the pressure and increasing the current.

Instead of quartz I'm gonna do the rochelle salts because i can get it easily by buying cream of tartar. I bought pure sodium carbonate at the art store and will add the tartar to the mix by this method: http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/rochelle.html . Since I have the sodium carbonate already I can go to the second step.

I have also picked up pure carbon that is artist quality for the unit. I will be trying to replicate with the anodized aluminum and see if the suggestions I gave you strengthen the output.