Quote from: wildew on August 26, 2012, 06:14:09 PM
@Webby1 - THANK YOU for that comment ! - It may have greatly improved my understanding of the system by making me think about a comment of ( I think yours ) and several of Wayne's.

"Control the POD and you control the system." - Was that you? Deserves much more consideration... When you mentioned pressing down on the risers it made me review Wayne's test bed and remember that his "down-stroke energy input" is applied to the.... POD! by applying hydraulic up force to the convoluted bag of the sinking ZED ( at the same time down force is applied to the convoluted bag of the rising ZED ) - forcibly transferring the "post free-flow" pressure from the falling ZED to the one being readied to rise.

In a latter post you did comment that the POD had sunk but that the risers were still up. Is it possible your whole rig is too light? That sounds like the air is decompressing too much and not allowing the differentials to realign to the down position.

Maybe this starting to really make sense, maybe I'm just nuts. It "feels" like it's coming together for me....

Dale

One problem that seems to occur, is that I fail to understand, in laymens terms exactly what is being said in some posts. Maybe it is just me,and this is intended as a constructive criticism.
So if I understand the above correctly, once the Zed reaches the top of its upstroke, we need to actually "suck" some water out of the pod chamber, to initiate the downstroke., rather than just allow the water to exit under its own pressure. Or to say the least, until the downstroke is started, we can not expect the outgoing water to do any "work" as in lifting pistons, or helping to charge a second Zed. Anyone agree/disagree?
   
  Understanding how it all works. Some people have a eureka moment. For me it is a series of smaller eureka moments. Last night, for the first time, I understood how the concentric risers form a greater area of lift in a small space. One step at a time...
 

One small step at a time is MrWayne's stated intent so I'd say you are on the right track 

I still have a ways to go...
To attempt to answer your question: Take a look at the full cycle image again. This particular question deals with the case where one ZED is at full stroke and the other is "at rest". Neither is at 0 pressure but one is at a higher pressure than the other. I think at this stage the output hydraulics are locked so neither outer riser can move.

First, a valve opens allowing pressurized water from the higher pressure ZED to flow back into the CB ( convoluted bag ) forcing it up, this action starts to compress the CB of the lower pressure ZED "free flow". Neither of the outer risers is moving but the pressures in the POD chambers are equalizing and the differentials in both are starting to change some.

Once the pressures equalize as much as they can, additional down force is applied to the CB of the ( still lower ) pressure ZED. This doesn't "suck" water from the ( soon to be sinking ) ZED it just lowers the pressure more.

At some point ( not clear yet ) after the differentials in the ZED being "charged" go positive, the riser control releases and allows them to move. The weight remaining on the risers of the sinking ZED keeps the internal air compressed. I don't think the risers ever separate and if they do, not by much.

The down force on the CB of the ( now stroking ) ZED, combined with the load, keeps the internal differentials "ahead of the curve" until the end of the stroke.

Very elegant, but complex, cycle.

And again - I may be WAY off still and if I am maybe MrWayne will catch and correct - and I'll learn more....

Dale   

Quote from: markdansie on August 26, 2012, 11:05:15 PM
.... I am not sure Wayne is fully qualified to answer the questions but he does have some bright engineers on his team.

Thanks Mark for giving an update and that info of maybe a 4 hour run time.  Your opinion was why I have been following this discussion.

From what I understood from mrwayne, is that HE is ‘The Teacher’, -the master of the ZED.  And the followers of the ZED are the pupils.  So he should be able to answer  a few questions regarding his invention if he wants people to help him resurrect the ZED.

***************************


If I run some current thoughts by, would mrwayne and friends consider something that I don’t think anyone has brought up yet?

What ran across my mind is the density of the water and/or antifreeze mix Old ZED is first pre-charged with; and that density changing as it ran.

From what I understand, ZED is emptied, and all his workings checked.
It is then charged up with air pressure and fluid levels.
Now maybe it runs for couple hours before it stops.
...but, the pressures readings and levels are still the same when it stops.

What if, when it is first charged up, the water is saturated with dissolved O2/air.
As it is run, the dissolve O2/air is slowly being separated out, which would be gradually change the density of the water, which in turn would be changing the buoyancy.
This changing bouyancy, because of changing density, is what is making it operate for a short time until the O2/air is all separated out.

***

Applying varying pressure, as in the workings of ZED, to a water saturated with dissolved O2/air, is going to squeeze the O2/air out at different rates. And density and bouyancy will also change.

When you are charging a tank or lines with rushing water, it can get it saturated with dissolved O2/air.  It’s the work that the little pump in a fish tank does.


Just thought this might be something to consider.

-Life really is better when you have a sense of humor

Quote from: wildew on August 27, 2012, 06:31:48 AM
One small step at a time is MrWayne's stated intent so I'd say you are on the right track 

I still have a ways to go...
To attempt to answer your question: Take a look at the full cycle image again. This particular question deals with the case where one ZED is at full stroke and the other is "at rest". Neither is at 0 pressure but one is at a higher pressure than the other. I think at this stage the output hydraulics are locked so neither outer riser can move.

First, a valve opens allowing pressurized water from the higher pressure ZED to flow back into the CB ( convoluted bag ) forcing it up, this action starts to compress the CB of the lower pressure ZED "free flow". Neither of the outer risers is moving but the pressures in the POD chambers are equalizing and the differentials in both are starting to change some.

Once the pressures equalize as much as they can, additional down force is applied to the CB of the ( still lower ) pressure ZED. This doesn't "suck" water from the ( soon to be sinking ) ZED it just lowers the pressure more.

At some point ( not clear yet ) after the differentials in the ZED being "charged" go positive, the riser control releases and allows them to move. The weight remaining on the risers of the sinking ZED keeps the internal air compressed. I don't think the risers ever separate and if they do, not by much.

The down force on the CB of the ( now stroking ) ZED, combined with the load, keeps the internal differentials "ahead of the curve" until the end of the stroke.

Very elegant, but complex, cycle.

And again - I may be WAY off still and if I am maybe MrWayne will catch and correct - and I'll learn more....

Dale

Dale, you are right.

And we never go to vacuum or Zero -

We do not actually have a riser control during operation - we do for set up - but during operation - the total resistance - the weight of the system and the hydraulic resistance (the upstroke output) is the natural riser control.

When the head (differential) reaches the point to lift - the input to stroke becomes a process of maintaining the differential.

To all - on another portion - the point I was trying to make yesterday concerning Webby's reverse question :

In a single ZED set up with a weight as the input - the cost of the input weight needs to be calculated in the whole cycle.

I am sure this is forth coming - the end of the stroke would be with the input weight back in the raised position -
With that in mind - what was the cost to raise the weight?

It is not the full value of the weight - because as you went to return it - the differential in the head helps to lift it.

So the cost of lifting the weight is the true cost of the weight - now compare that to the out put - and you are under way to understanding the ability of a single ZED.

We use that effect in the dual ZED to have a nearly continuous output. Or faster cycle times.

Good questions and good work.
Thanks Wayne

QuoteWe do not actually have a riser control during operation - we do for set up - but during operation - the total resistance - the weight of the system and the hydraulic resistance (the upstroke output) is the natural riser control.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Dale