Quote from: MT on November 07, 2012, 02:22:44 PM
Hi Michel,
if I may still go back to the #2789 post
>LIFT Case #2, the Travis Special (a theoretical example for explanation only)
>We lift a weight of 1000kg to a height of 1meter,
>Potential energy created in the weight= 1000KgMeter
>To do the lift we use an hydraulic lifter with piston lift area of 1SquareMeter. This does not require  to fill a  ram cavity of 1mtr x 1mtr  with 1000 liters (kg) of fluid.  The multi layer lifter design reduces the fluid input and pressure >requirements.  The effective energy input to lift is reduced to a level below 100% according to the design
>Fluid energy input is  >1000kg x 1mtr =  >1000KgMtr
You are basically saying that lift case is over 100% efficient. Can this be achieved purely by one ZED or only in combination with another ZED which would provide some of its exhaust as input?
Somewhere in the beginning MrWayne said that upward action is not much different from a pneumatic cylinder and that main difference is in down stroke. As I read it lift part is 100% but down stroke over 100%.
Marcel 

Marcel.
The example is purely a theoretical extreme example to highlight a point on the characteristics of the multi layer buoyancy device and energy flow.

There was a correction on « on: October 31, 2012, 11:34:13 AM » that read
Correction: Message #2789 on page #186 should read
Fluid energy input is <1000kg x 1mtr = "less than 1000KgMtr"

You can keep it to the standard piston at a theoretical efficiency of 100%
or alternative a MLBD takes less than 1000kg (ltrs) of water to lift 1000kg for one meter height depending on the number of layers in the design

Quote from: camelherder49 on November 07, 2012, 03:36:08 PM
From TK

Red, gravity is a conservative field of force. Buoyancy is just an effect of gravity by another name, worked through displacement of water. This means that there is nothing that "flows" in the force of gravity, and the gravitational potential energy of any object depends ONLY on its height above a reference, not at all on the simple or complicated path that it took to get there or how much work went into getting it there in the first place.[

From NOAA describing percolation in the Hydrologic Cycle:

Percolation is the movement of water though the soil, and it's layers, by gravity and capillary forces. The prime moving force of groundwater is gravity. Water that is in the zone of aeration where air exists is called vadose water. Water that is in the zone of saturation is called groundwater. For all practical purposes, all groundwater originates as surface water. Once underground, the water is moved by gravity. The boundary that separates the vadose and the saturation zones is called the water table. Usually the direction of water movement is changed from downward and a horizontal component to the movement is added that is based on the geologic boundary conditions.
This is being accomplished in a closed never ending cycle that has been ongoing
for millions of years.
Wayne has mimicked nature to a degree!

You are leaving out an extremely important aspect of the hydrological cycle, and that is where the INPUT OF ENERGY comes from that drives the entire cycle, and indeed allows us to live on the Earth at all. Do you know what that aspect is?

Where does your percolating groundwater come from? It comes from surface water. How does the surface water get there, to run off and percolate? From rainfall and snowmelt. Where does rain and snow come from? From the condensation of water vapor high up in the atmosphere, raining or snowing on high places on the ground. Where does the water vapor come from? It is evaporated from surface water, oceans, groundwater, plants and even animal exhalations. What evaporates the water? Energy from THE SUN. What lifts the water vapor high up in the Earth's gravity field, adding GPE to it? Atmospheric convection caused by THE HEAT OF THE SUN warming the ground which warms the air in contact with it, making it less dense than its surroundings.. so, by _buoyancy_ the hot, moist air rises to an altitude where it cools enough for the rain to condense and fall out.

Where is the corresponding aspect in Mister Wayne's "mimic of nature", to whatever degree? Where is his SUN which provides the energy for his mimic of nature's hydrological cycle?

Quote from: Red_Sunset on November 07, 2012, 04:13:09 PM
Marcel.
The example is purely a theoretical extreme example to highlight a point on the characteristics of the multi layer buoyancy device and energy flow.

There was a correction on « on: October 31, 2012, 11:34:13 AM » that read
Correction: Message #2789 on page #186 should read
Fluid energy input is <1000kg x 1mtr = "less than 1000KgMtr"

You can keep it to the standard piston at a theoretical efficiency of 100%
or alternative a MLBD takes less than 1000kg (ltrs) of water to lift 1000kg for one meter height depending on the number of layers in the design

The precharge is doing most of the lifting. The injected water only  needs to be of sufficient amount to push the system back and forth around its neutral buoyancy point. An automatic bollard weighing hundreds of pounds can be lifted with fingertip lift, because most of its true weight is taken up, and stored, in the compression of its lifting spring.

If you are not allowed to precharge a Zed by pressurising its internal chambers....what then?

I'd actually like to see the results from Mond and Wildew on this. If you set up your system at bottom with all vents open, and allow the water levels and air pressures to equalize fully at ambient pressure, then close all vents and proceed to apply the lift input... what then? I think you will have removed the spring of the automatic bollard, but I've only had one cup of TinselKoffee yet so I'm well prepared to be wrong. That's what experiments are for: to test hypotheses and _rule them out_.

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 07, 2012, 04:21:48 PM
I'd actually like to see the results from Mond and Wildew on this. If you set up your system at bottom with all vents open, and allow the water levels and air pressures to equalize fully at ambient pressure, then close all vents and proceed to apply the lift input... what then? I think you will have removed the spring of the automatic bollard, but I've only had one cup of TinselKoffee yet so I'm well prepared to be wrong. That's what experiments are for: to test hypotheses and _rule them out_.

No can do here.  I have no vents on top and so cannot equalize ambient air pressure.  My precharge method always results in some internal air pressure.  But I believe Dale can accommodate.  And what I believe will happen is it will still lift, but with a slightly retarded potential.  The volume of air in the chambers will not start precompressed and so will need to compress more than usual as the input water is introduced.  But it will still lift.  The resultant air volume in the chambers will be slightly reduced and so the maximum buoyancy that results will also be slightly reduced.

I've personally never seen and still do not see the single ZED as anything other than a buoyancy lift system.  There are internal pressures that are necessary to redistribute the air and water in the various annuli in order to change the buoyancy caused by a difference in water height outside and inside any given Pod or Riser wall.  But I still do not think that pressure lifts anything.  However, you can calculate the lift based on a pressure or buoyancy point of view and reach the same results.  But that is just the way I see it.

M.

Quote from: TinselKoala on November 07, 2012, 04:21:48 PM
I'd actually like to see...

And as long as you are making request, here are a couple for you.

I have posted data that graphs beautifully.  I'm not sure if you are one of the other two (I dl'd once at work) that downloaded and checked that out or not, but it is sweet.  And exactly as one would expect.  I'd actually like to see your interpretation.

I have also posted calculations from that data on how two ZEDs should perform and wonder if that conclusion is correct and somewhat accurate.  I'd actually like to see your opinions on that as well.

Sorry for being terse.  I'm a bit pissed off about the lack of attention to real testing going on.  So it is not personal.

Also pissed off about the lack of a spell check button...

M.