Quote from: webby1 on November 08, 2012, 07:53:03 PM
I guess that is how you think it may be happening.

So if that is what is happening and the system only has one exit point, the pod chamber is in a closed system with its feed bag, then for the pressure to leave either the water or the air has to transport said pressure,, if that happens we call it blowing a skirt.

Does not happen when things are working.

when things are working....

But we've heard report after report from MrWayne about things _not_ working, springing leaks, etc.
Just as with Zed and Dez, the added weight doesn't have to exit the system.... it just has to wind up being evenly distributed at a lower GPE than it entered. There is no need to "blow skirts" (Dez would really not like that and would slap you if you tried anything). Depending on how the system is constructed..... recall the Heron's Fountain..... a little leak somewhere between chambers, or even something about the pistons and valve system, could be tossing the apple back and forth, making the system run.
Hey, I dunno if that's what Mister Wayne's system does or not, since he's not sharing. But certainly nothing about the published animation _rules it out_ as a possibility.
We've apparently decided that a single Zed is balanced and the water in represents the "apple" compared to the kid's weight: a relatively small input has a large effect because of the precharge and counterbalance effects. So if you have two of these balanced Zeds and if there's some elevated reservoir of accumulated fluid that is cycled back and forth between chambers or cylinders in two balanced Zeds on its way down to a lower reservoir or tank or chamber....

What I can't figure out is how an _unbalanced_ pair of Zeds with an electronic control panel could keep running if it didn't have a power supply.

Quote from: Xaverius on November 08, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
I agree, how is that much VOLUME transferred the same distance as the input with greater pressure?

QuoteQuote from: seamus103 on November 08, 2012, 11:04:50 AM
    You can't be serious in asking this question..surely? Isn't it obvious that case two describes no more than hydraulic leverage and the conclusions drawn about the energy balance are completely false.
    Sure, the descent in case two could generate ten times the pressure but the volume that could be transferred is ten times less. Net result in energy terms is exactly the same as case one. Not overunity at all.

Xaverius,
I agree, that is what you see as a standard, of the cuff view. I agree that your view is a natural logical and linear deduction "within the box", but logical CAN NOT produce OU,  200yrs of foolish trying has proven that already.

In the case#2 example, for simplicity, it was clearly said that an assumed "hypothetical" piston was used that had the capability to morph into that into that property. The morphing is an engineering aspect. 
The reason that Seamus thinks that the inventor is deluded I can reasonably understand only because he can not visualize how this impossibility can realistically exist.  The book "Anarchy in Science", the reference I posted a while ago, gives you a good overview on how many theories, concepts and inventions were ridiculed by their peers over the centuries. Only because the recipient ear & brain can not yet process the information presented, it is not unlike a religious conversion because strong preconceptions and indoctrinations have to be put aside first to open the mind (that takes time)

If we go back to Wayne's posts, he says that he can produce a lift of 2500lb with 5psi, when increasing the psi with 60%, he lifts 7500lb.  Normally this relationship should be linear (pressure x area), but obvious what he is describing isn't,  increasing the pressure from 100 to160%, increases the lift by 300%.  Impossible in the normal "in the box sense", absolutely !.

As described by Wayne, the special effects are not exactly "space, time", only multiple masses occupying the same space at the same time and a relationship distortion due to virtual appearance are the main effects that drives the OU capability.
Addon >>The Travis effect is also possible because of the piston unique structure. The combined " riser surfaces" gathered into one assembly does not equal the sum of these "riser surfaces" if used separated from each other. The stacked water column configuration in the combined structure produces a unique relationship, from a parallel to serial but the lift remains parallel  << addon

There is nothing I could add to Wayne explanation, the pictures posted, or the animation on the web site. 
Only the penny of realization and comprehension in your thinking mind need to drop, it will come, give it time, persistence pays !

Red_Sunset:

QuoteOnly the penny of realization and comprehension in your thinking mind need to drop, it will come, give it time, persistence pays !

Indeed, persistence pays.

You have been holding court here for quite a while and doing a pretty good job of it.  The real question, to paraphrase you, is that people need to use their thinking minds, and giving them some time and letting them weigh the possibilities, and with some persistence, they may come to a level of realization and comprehension.

The real question is what are they going to eventually realize.  Certainly time is not on your side Red_Sunset, and in all likelihood, the sun is going to set on you.

Some people may come to realize that all of the prompts and suggestions and the allusions to eventual enlightenment will indeed result in another form of enlightenment.  The longer time goes on, the more stress there is put on your position and there may be a reactionary form of enlightenment that is the opposite of what you are hoping for.

Wayne seems like a nice guy.  Down home Oklahoma folk.  You seem like a nice guy, some cool guy that sails the world and is just dropping in for an extended stay to turn people on to this new realization.

But onward the clock ticks, and tocks, and ticks, and tocks, and that stress that I made reference to will result in a new form of enlightenment.

The realization that may dawn on some people is that things are getting stale.  Nothing concrete is happening.  We are all just spinning our wheels and spinning our wheels and spinning our wheels.

Look at this whole model of what has been transpiring here.  Is it just a mirage?  Is there a way to put the pieces of the puzzle together that makes complete sense but not in a way that you would like it to make sense?  Do all the pieces of the puzzle add up to a workaround for gravity and buoyancy that allow you to harvest free energy from a standalone hydraulic-pneumatic device, or do the pieces to the puzzle add up to something else?

I see the pieces to the puzzle adding up and it all makes perfect sense to me.  The idea of a demo to prove the system to a team organized by Mark Dansie sounds pretty sweet.  But my jigsaw puzzle puts that concept on a Moebius strip.  We are always on the journey but we never seem to get there, it's always around the next bend.  You just have to think and visualize and get energized by what you say and we can all round yet another corner on the Moebius strip.

The way all of the pieces fit together into a new form of realization and comprehension is pretty comprehensive.  The realization is that you are basically a pretty slick and clever paid shill.  In other words you are part of the Inverse MIB.  This is all just an orchestrated online event, a never ending story.  Your job is to hold court and convince people that all they have to do is open up their minds and this amazing realization will come true.  All that you have to do is tune in and try to achieve that Nirvana of understanding.

But the real Nirvana of understanding is for individuals to come to the profound realization is that this is all just an orchestrated event - people guided onto a Moebus strip of hope.  You may have some pretty good Inverse MIB buzz going right now, but the clock is against you and as time goes on people will be coming to the real and true realization with respect to what is really and truly happening.

Like I said, for this "alternative" realization, all of the pieces of the puzzle come together and fit perfectly.   You are trying to get people to have a "Eureka ZED moment" and keep on trying to convince them to put the pieces of the puzzle together.  Your puzzle has the disadvantage of never ever getting completed.  The "alternative" puzzle pieces all fit together perfectly and everything makes sense.

It's fun watching the show sometimes, but it's just a show.  The end is basically a foregone conclusion and I don't think that the number of statues built in honour of Wayne will ever match the number of statues built to honour Einstein.

You can go back to your regularly scheduled activities there Red_Sunset but the pressure will continue to mount as time goes on, something that is inescapable for you.

What is the root cause for this whole thing?  Rum and Coca-Cola!  What else could it be?

MileHigh

Quote from: seamus103 on November 09, 2012, 02:39:14 AM
Contrary to your assertions I am able to fully visualize this system, and with the help of mathematics prove beyond doubt that you are incorrect. Work, a conserved quantity, is the integral of Force with respect to distance and this holds true over ANY arbitrarily defined boundary. That is ANY geometry you or anyone else is able to visualize or define.  I understand you appear to be unable to think in these ways, and this is a limiting factor in your understanding of physical systems.
In light of this you should measure this system on its merits to date. No result so far, and I can confidently predict no result in the future. 

Seamus,
I have no problem to admit to any limitations in my vision or anything I might have overlooked if found to exist.
Can you share your mathematical proof to put Force behind your word and difference of vision. I agree that work is a conserved quantity, is the integral of Force with respect to distance and this holds true over ANY arbitrarily defined boundary "in a common and normal configuration". Out argument is that Travis is an exception to that normality, not to the law.
For the purpose of argumentation, we can stick to the theory for the time being, because that is what we have control of at this moment in time

Quote from: Red_Sunset on November 09, 2012, 12:37:49 AM
If we go back to Wayne's posts, he says that he can produce a lift of 2500lb with 5psi, when increasing the psi with 60%, he lifts 7500lb.  Normally this relationship should be linear (pressure x area), but obvious what he is describing isn't,  increasing the pressure from 100 to160%, increases the lift by 300%.  Impossible in the normal "in the box sense", absolutely !.

As described by Wayne, the special effects are not exactly "space, time", only multiple masses occupying the same space at the same time and a relationship distortion due to virtual appearance are the main effects that drives the OU capability.
Addon >>The Travis effect is also possible because of the piston unique structure. The combined " riser surfaces" gathered into one assembly does not equal the sum of these "riser surfaces" if used separated from each other. The stacked water column configuration in the combined structure produces a unique relationship, from a parallel to serial but the lift remains parallel  << addon

There is nothing I could add to Wayne explanation, the pictures posted, or the animation on the web site. 
Only the penny of realization and comprehension in your thinking mind need to drop, it will come, give it time, persistence pays !

Hi Red,
is this nonlinear increase in pressure demonstrable also in 1 riser system? My calculation for 1 riser lift case shows it is pretty linear.  I can share it if people are interested.
MT