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Overunity Machines Forum



Magnets, motion and measurement

Started by Floor, October 31, 2016, 09:11:43 PM

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0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

ayeaye

This shield magnet has to be thin there, so that the left magnet could go near enough to the right magnet, for there to be enough repulsion. And it should be thick enough so that the repulsive force of the right magnet will not go through it. Exactly the right size, not much to play with.

It seems that by now, several experiments show a small amount of overunity on permanent magnets. This is seemingly not great though, and when making an actual continuously working device, it may not be even able to overcome friction.

Norman was right in that energy is force multiplied by distance. Thus the repulsive force should properly be measured after every small intervals, as it decreases very rapidly, then these forces multiplied by intervals should be added. Or when the speed by which the repulsive force decreases can be found, then this can be used to calculate energy from the maximum force.

Thus measuring only the maximum forces is not enough. I'm also sure that when these calculations are done, the overunity appears to be even smaller. Yet it seems convincing that there is some overunity.

Also very important that for the first time someone actually did measurements with permanent magnets. Though maybe not quite rightly done at first, these measurements are important, Because even when all looks convincing, only measurements and calculations show how it actually is. Like there is a force two times more, but when it then appears that the distances differ two times, then the actual overunity is zero in spite of this.

To convert it into newtons, 1 N = 0.10197 kg = 0.22481 pounds. Energy in joules is force in newtons, multiplied by distance in meters, 1 J = 1 N * 1 m .


ayeaye

citfta,

I'm sorry but, i did calculations based on what i could see in your video with measurements, and i found that your input energy was 1.76 times greater than the output energy. While this estimation is certainly not highly precise, i can say for sure that there was no overunity. The biggest problem was shifting the shield magnet, that took 139 mJ, this alone was more than the output energy.

Check that the calculations are correct, though they most likely are. I estimated that your two magnets were 50 x 50 x 20 mm, and the shield magnet was 50 x 50 x 10 mm.

Repulsion:
0 mm -- 1 pound 6 ounces = 623.68952 g = 6.11630483131 N
10 mm -- 13 ounces = 368.54376 g = 3.614179664 N
20 mm -- 8 ounces = 226.79616 g = 2.22411056246 N
30 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.11205528123 N

Calculating average values for each 10 mm segment, as perhaps the best approximation:
10 mm -- 4.86525 N
20 mm -- 2.91915 N
30 mm -- 1.66805 N

Output energy:
E = (4.86525 + 2.91915 + 1.66805) * 10 = 94.5245 mJ

Moving towards the shield magnet:
30 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
20 mm -- 3 ounces = 85.04856 g = 0.8340 N
10 mm -- 4 ounces = 113.39808 g = 1.1120 N

Energy of moving towards the shield magnet:
E = (0.8340 + 0.8340 + 1.1120) * 10 = 27.7000 mJ

Force of shifting the shield magnet:
5 ounces = 141.7476 g = 1.39006910154 N

Energy of shifting the shield magnet two times, 50 * 2 = 100 mm:
E = 1.3900 * 100 = 139.0000 mJ

Input energy:
E = 139.000 + 27.700 = 166.700 mJ

Output energy:
E = 94.5245 mJ

It looks like that in theory it should work, as shifting the shield magnet should in theory need no force at all. But 1.39 N that it needs in practice, plus shifting it the total distance of 100 mm, results in practice in no energy gain at all.


norman6538

The problem I had with the magnet between 2 magnets is the geometry of closer stronger and further weaker. To get much power the magnet between had to have some thickness and that makes the two other magnets further/weaker. So I switched to metal between two repelling magnets. It will pull itself in and if that work done is saved it can be used to pull the metal back out and have an almost work free 1. set to do work 2. do work and 3. unset to repeat step 1. and the power geometry is closer stronger repel while the step 1. set to do work is also closer stronger and on 2 sides.

Norman

ayeaye

These conversions, so one would not have to search for these constants.

1 pound is 16 ounces.

1 kg is 1000 g.

5 ounces = 5 * 28.34952 = 141.7476 g

141.7476 g = 141.7476 * 0.00980665 = 1.3900 N

Forces are measured in newtons (N), because newton is a unit of force. Ounce and g are units of weight, weight is a force caused by gravity.

When the distances are measured in millimeters, then by multiplying these by force, we get energy in mJ (milli joule, that is 1/1000 of joule).

The scale that was used in that video is called a fish scale, as it is likely mostly used for weighing fishes. They sell such scales in eBay for $5. But it is similar to scales used in physics experiments for measuring forces.


ayeaye

The constant to convert ounces to newtons, is 0.27801382, or maybe 0.278 is precise enough, if this may be anyhow important, 1 pound is 16 ounces. Newtons are maybe closest to ounces.

The energy in milli joules is force in newtons multiplied by the distance in mm moved by that force. How fast it is moved is not important, only the distance and force are important for this.

Norman, yes, when an iron shield is attracted, then the energy for that should be considered an output, not input. Pulling an iron or even a mu metal shield out needs quite a lot of force though. Mu metal can be taken out from an old hard drive, at least this is how i got it.