Quote from: shruggedatlas on October 18, 2007, 12:06:27 AM

Quote from: Elvis Oswald on October 17, 2007, 11:23:39 AM

Quote from: shruggedatlas on October 17, 2007, 01:32:49 AM
I was attacking the theories presented here.  It is not my fault they are weak.  People are saying there were no planes - not that the planes were not piloted by hijackers, but that no planes hit WTC.

On to your points.

Why should there be a video of Atta entering the plane?  Are there cameras pointed at the plane door?

Regarding the passenger lists - many news agencies posted lists of victims, and of course the hijackers were not on those lists, because they are not considered victims.  Do not confuse these with official manifests, which did in fact contain the names of the hijackers and their assigned seats.

And if you can tell me exactly which version of the "truth" you are a proponent of, I would be happy to tear down your theory in particular.

I will apologize for the "beating a straw man" comment then.   I am in agreement with you that those people, who say that there were no planes that hit the WTC that day, are not thinking logically.  And you can be sure that if intelligence agencies were involved in 9/11, then they would most certainly promote wacky theories such as death rays and holographic images of planes - just to taint the opposition.

To the points you addressed...

Of course there are cameras all over the airports.  There is video of passengers boarding those planes, and video of them going through security, and video of them elsewhere in the airport.

As to the passenger lists... I have seen the list and those names were not on it.  I saw the list on 9/11.  At the time I thought they were hijacked and so I wanted the list to see if any names stuck out.  After the names of suspects were released... I noticed that those names were not on the list.

And as for "tearing down" my theory... I think that your theory is the one that is falling down.  As I said before - only the criminals know for sure what happened on 9/11.  You and I can only talk about the probabilities.
You have stated that you believe the official story.  If you believe that without any evidence at all - then you may be as crazy as the death ray folks.

We know that planes crashed into WTC1 and WTC2.  We all saw them.  we couldn't see and can't tell what planes they are - you can't see AA on them, and you can't read numbers on the tail.  But we know that two planes hit those buildings.
Because the planes turned off their transponders... it is impossible to be 100% sure that the planes that took off are the planes that actually hit the towers.

We know that something hit the pentagon.  Whatever it was penetrated 3 rings of kevlar reinforced concrete and steel.  It left a 16 foot diameter hole in the wall.  It's obvious that a plane did not do that.  I would expect the engines to make some sort of impact... but that would be 2 holes and not one.  Add to that - the lawn was untouched... there was no evidence of a plane at the site... and military people in the pentagon said they heard a missile, not a plane.

But the biggest thing is the implosion of the towers.  WTC1, 2, and 7.  All imploded.  they collapsed at free fall speeds into their own footprint.  The only steel framed buildings to collapse due to fire EVER... before or since.
And not only did they collapse... but they collapsed at freefall speeds and they went straight down.
The freefall speeds defy the laws of physics, and the fact that they collapsed in their own footprints (all three of them)  defies statistical odds. And the fact that they are the only three EVER to do that... well shit... I guess that's a freakin' miracle.

But it doesn't matter - because you want to believe that muslims did it.  And you want everyone else to believe it too.  That is your motive.
So either you are blinded by your ethnic heritage... or you are not blind - you are just a lying manipulator.

I take exception with your statement that I do not base my opinion on evidence.  There is plenty of evidence to support the mainstream view.  I am not saying that there is no evidence to contradict it, but to say there is no evidence to support it is naive.

Every single thing you list has been debated to death on the Internet, from WTC 1 and 2 to the Pentagon, to WTC 7 to everything under the sun.  There are explanations and questions about everything.  I mean, if I drove to the supermarket on a Sunday and took photographs along the way, I am sure the truthers would find a way to show that I met with Bush instead.  Look - that shadow is strange for a Sunday in October!

Get some evidence of a conspiracy.  Get some witnesses.  Some memos, emails, letters, whatever.  Find out what happened to the people on those planes, if they did not die in the crashes.  Produce something besides a debate over how hot metal has to get before it breaks or bends or whatever.  The buildings fell straight down!  Oh no, that gravity at it again, pulling things straight down.  That hole looks a little small for a plane . . . I just don't know.  There is not enough rubble there!  That is the first time WTC 7 fell down like that, in the history of the WTC 7, must be a setup.  Oh look, puffs of smoke as floors are collapsing, can't be from the air rushing out - must be explosives.  That plane looks fuzzy.  Air traffic controllers voices faked.

Look, get some real evidence.  A conspiracy of this size must involve thousands of people and years of preparation and a ton of communication between various parties.  There are going to be loose ends - find them.

Explain to me how an engine made of titanium vaporizes, and a paper passport falls out of the plane unharmed.

Explain why if flight 93 took a nose dive, there was wreckage strewn for miles.

Explain why engines made of titanium vaporized when it struck the pentagon.

Explain why the Bush administration stated they could have never seen this coming, when in-fact a report outlined that exact attack using planes into buildings was given to them way before hand. Maybe they could've watched the lone gunmen pilot. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIZ205ccX8M

Why on earth would you need thousands of people to pull this off..  The ego is a powerful tool.. 

We can take over a whole country in a couple weeks, yet we can't even find one guy..

Wake up!

Come on -  explain to me how an engine made of titanium vaporizes, and a paper passport falls out of the plane unharmed!!!

You can get all the evidence you want, doesn't do much good when people don't even bother to look at it.

It finally comes to the point where all of you will have to realize that you are going to have to get off your ass, get out of the chair and start talking to your neighbours or anyone else who will listen. Argueing with people who refuse to believe or understand, on the net..really truly is, a dead end.

For the people who are in the real world..tying you up in these knots....they really, seriously do not give a damn in any sinlge possible way what you say on the net.

As long as you don't actually do anything. And staying here in the net is..in full..actual reality..you are doing nothing.

Nothing at all.

You want this to be over and to move into that world that was promised to people, back in the 60's..the 70's and the 80's..the one that has been stolen from you?

Then get off your ass and start talking to people. IN PERSON. As you know...the media won't actually ever reach the man in the street with the truth. You'll have to go back to doing it the old fashion way. The only one, that in the end, has ever worked. Each generation has to learn that, again, and again, and again, and again.

Yes, you actually have to stifle the inner fear of actually risking yourself and doing that actual thing. It's called walking the walk and supporting what you believe in by risking yourself. Toe to toe, eye to eye. This is the way it has always been. You won't accomplish squat sitting here on the net.

Get out there.

Untill then it's all bullshit.

That's the part they don't want you to understand...and heaven forbid....to ACT ON.

You try to talk to people or a given person in your office, your workplace, at a bar and they call you a nutbar..well..you simply look at them calmly. You do NOT get enraged, not one bit. You simply and calmly tell them well, truth comes to all of us and sometimes it comes hard. Then you look them calmly in the eye again, never flinching, never looking away, not even remotely having the slightest look of anger to you, at all. You calmly tell them that the truth is finally coming to everyone and they are sadly in the smaller minority now..and they'd better start figuring it out. And you apologize to them for making a mess of the world they'd like to believe in and the one they are angry at you for tearing down. That you too where there and you too have felt that pain for years now. But be honest and look them in the eye and tell them that farce, the lie..it is over. And now comes the horrific task of tearing that machine down. However ugly it may be..that time has come.

And you calmly walk away. For forcing it will get you nowhere. But calm soft clear spoken words will goÃ,  deep into them. And that is the only way you are ever going to win their hearts. You must have no anger in you when you tell them these things..if you don't..the message will fail. It will not get in. You'll have to do it with a few people, before you get the hang of it. But it works. It's the only way that does. They will generate their own anger when they finally begin to truly deal with it. If you anger them while trying to deliver the message..they will never accept it.

This is how the human mind works. Look at this forum, for example.

And remember this one important point. Nobody stole or took anything from us. We did it to ourselves. We gave them the rope to hang ourselves with. WE took our eye off the ball. WE did not keep the agreement with the democratic proccess. WE allowed them to do this to us. WE were asleep at the wheel. WE were doing our damnedest to play like children in the streets.

Democracy MUST be maintained by NEVERENDING CONSTANT VIGILANCE.

For the forces working against it are always plotting, always scheming, always thinking of new ways to screw you/us over. They NEVER REST.

Quote from: Prophmaji on October 18, 2007, 09:23:28 AM
It finally comes to the point where all of you will have to realize that you are going to have to get off your ass, get out of the chair and start talking to your neighbours or anyone else who will listen. Argueing with people who refuse to believe or understand, on the net..really truly is, a dead end.

For the people who are in the real world..tying you up in these knots....they really, seriously do not give a damn in any sinlge possible way what you say on the net.

As long as you don't actually do anything. And staying here in the net is..in full..actual reality..you are doing nothing.

Nothing at all.

You want this to be over and to move into that world that was promised to people, back in the 60's..the 70's and the 80's..the one that has been stolen from you?

Then get off your ass and start talking to people. IN PERSON. As you know...the media won't actually ever reach the man in the street with the truth. You'll have to go back to doing it the old fashion way. The only one, that in the end, has ever worked. Each generation has to learn that, again, and again, and again, and again.

Yes, you actually have to stifle the inner fear of actually risking yourself and doing that actual thing. It's called walking the walk and supporting what you believe in by risking yourself. Toe to toe, eye to eye. This is the way it has always been. You won't accomplish squat sitting here on the net.

Get out there.

Untill then it's all bullshit.

That's the part they don't want you to understand...and heaven forbid....to ACT ON.

I wonder, what do you propose we do? 

I believe introducing free energy into the world would devastate these elitists, and level the playing field.  Till then, I will be working on anything that can possibly attain that.  Hopefully we can do it soon, cause ww3 ain't gonna be pretty.

Quote from: Freezer on October 18, 2007, 09:48:28 AM

Quote from: Prophmaji on October 18, 2007, 09:23:28 AM
It finally comes to the point where all of you will have to realize that you are going to have to get off your ass, get out of the chair and start talking to your neighbours or anyone else who will listen. Argueing with people who refuse to believe or understand, on the net..really truly is, a dead end.

For the people who are in the real world..tying you up in these knots....they really, seriously do not give a damn in any sinlge possible way what you say on the net.

As long as you don't actually do anything. And staying here in the net is..in full..actual reality..you are doing nothing.

Nothing at all.

You want this to be over and to move into that world that was promised to people, back in the 60's..the 70's and the 80's..the one that has been stolen from you?

Then get off your ass and start talking to people. IN PERSON. As you know...the media won't actually ever reach the man in the street with the truth. You'll have to go back to doing it the old fashion way. The only one, that in the end, has ever worked. Each generation has to learn that, again, and again, and again, and again.

Yes, you actually have to stifle the inner fear of actually risking yourself and doing that actual thing. It's called walking the walk and supporting what you believe in by risking yourself. Toe to toe, eye to eye. This is the way it has always been. You won't accomplish squat sitting here on the net.

Get out there.

Untill then it's all bullshit.

That's the part they don't want you to understand...and heaven forbid....to ACT ON.

I wonder, what do you propose we do? 

I believe introducing free energy into the world would devastate these elitists, and level the playing field.  Till then, I will be working on anything that can possibly attain that.  Hopefully we can do it soon, cause ww3 ain't gonna be pretty.

I agree that introducing free energy would devastate big energy and mainstream science.  In the same fashion, proving the moon is made of green cheese would devastate modern astronomers.

@ all skeptics

Watch this video (How The Towers Fell):
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-2899586663939158659

It's simply the best 9/11-video (together with September Clues 1-8) I have seen.