I'd rather not edit the above post because I don't want any possibility of claims from thane I changed the numbers to agree with what I believe.

But I just realized my meter can measure inductance, so...

HC       HV
10.8m  3.08 Henries

That's 3.008 Henries for the HV coil.
And    0.0108 Henries for the HC coil.

I'll also add that the 500ma figure for the HC coil is not as accurate as that sounds since my meter has a 200ma and 20A scale so since it was too much for the 200ma scale I used the 20A scale which only goes down to a tenth of an amp.

So the HV coils has:
8.26 times more voltage induced
43 times more resistance
1 25th or 26th (or anything around there) the current.

All readings were taken with a single meter and slight rpm changes did occur.

Now I'll try and see what this mess of figures means

On the face of it Thane wins since it's 25th of the current but only 8.26 times more turns. (though I am yet to do the test with the NNN SSS NNN SSS sequence)
Now even if I instead assume that it lost some voltage on the way to the more distant secondary, and assume that the voltage output was 2kv (with 240v in) then that is still only 8.33 times more turns.
I may bump the HV current up to 20ma and the HC down to say 460ma, all perfectly possible given changes in speed and measurement error of margins.
But still 20ma x 8.33 = 166ma .vs 460ms (HC coil would have 2.77 times more ampere turns)

So I tried simulating it, however there is a difference with the simulation, it shows more current flowing in both despite recreating the elements. (the difference is that simulation can pump out as much 'power' as it likes)

Anyway the result of the simulation is that the HV current is one 29th of the HC current in the simulation, this is acceptably close to the 26th figure above.   What is odd is I have already verified the math is on my side so what is going on here?

Another oddity is that if I calculate an inductance coil of x number of turns, and then another coil with 8.33 as many turns I get an inductance that is almost 70 times larger when my measured result is 285 times larger.  Now admittedly the calculation is for an air core coil but still 285 times larger is really high.

Ah, that must be it.

So now if I change inductor in the HV simulation from from 3.08 to .0108 x 8.33 which is 756mH I get a current of 204ma which if I multiply by 8.33 is 1.7A .vs 1.63A flowing in the HC which is close enough to call a match.

So it seems that I am right about air core coils (I must be since the math agrees) but maybe Thane is right when it comes to ferrous cores, but that answer still doesn't sit right with me it feels utterly illogical and the real world test is imperfect enough due to coil position for me to remain somewhat unconvinced. (the position of the HV coil forces it to have a higher self induction and less access to the rotor flux than the HC coil)

Also if I consider it from the following position I feel I must be right.

Imagine 2 coils, one consisting of 2 turns of wire, naturally it is shorted.
The other consists of 2 wires of the same thickness as the first but 1 turn shorted. (the 2 wires touching or not, another way to say it is we have 2 single turn coils possibly in contact)

note: to put it another way we have 2 single turn coils which in the first instance are in series and in the second instance or in parallel or individually shorted.

The first coil will have twice the voltage of the second induced in it not that is will be measurable in SC.
If 1 amp was flowing in the first coil it would require a total of 2 amps to flow in the second coil/s (1 amp in each wire) to create a magnetic field of the same strength.

Now imagine that the current in both coils rises from 0 amps to 1 amp in each wire, if you look at a section of the first coil you will notice that it sees a changing magnetic field from the other wire as it goes for 0 to 1 amp and feels a voltage from that.

If you look at one on the wires from the second coil, it also sees the magnetic field from the other wire change from 0 to 1 amp and feels a voltage from that.

And it does not take a genius to figure out that each turn of a wire in either coil will feel the same self induced EMF per turn, only one is in series so it's total is double.

This is true no matter what, the math and logic entirely support this, if experiments are not in agreement then either the experiments are imperfect (different positions and sizes etc), or there is something else going on (possibly the aether) that the logic and math can not account for.

Yes, I did above (and choose not to remove) the thought that possibly a ferrous core changes the equation somehow, but it can not possibly do so.

I will endeavor to find a calculator that can calculate inductance on a ferrous core to verify this.

Thane may be right but only if the equations are not holding up, and I consider that to be a real possibility.

Thane, on a totally different subject, there are a few ways you could help me get the effect.

One is to please send me the coil (the motor I would opt for Uli to send from OZ but not the coil).
So if you can please send it I would very much appreciate it.

The second way, well I'm open to suggestions, I was going to ask:
The other would be for you to measure the current when you short one of your HC coils, and the voltage when it's OC, and observe how many RPM it slows down when shorted.

Because I don't feel that I am getting anywhere near as much deceleration when I short the HC MOT coils as you do and I'd like to know how that could be. (if my motor simply isn't as responsive that could be obscuring the effect)
But I somehow can't imagine you doing that test and reporting the results so I am open to what you think I should do to get the effect.

I have built a coil that matches your specs (yes, the resistance is a bit higher but it is multitap and I was trying to get 5,000 ft of wire which is how long your coil must have been to have 200 ohms with 27AWG) without success.  After all if the aim is to get 200 ohms not a certain length then I should use nichrome.

And tested with MOT's (About to do the NNN SSS NNN SSS test which I will hopefully report on later today) also no success.

So if you can make a suggestion before the Thane verified coil arrives I would very very much appreciate it!

I have now tested the NNN SSS NNN SSS config (with MOT stators) with no success.
This time I could not even get shorting the HC coils to make any noticeable slowdown, either the rotor is not having enough effect on the stator (the gap is too large) or or the motor powers through the changes in load despite turning slowly and being underpowered.

I am hoping Thane can suggest something but I am wondering if the gap is too great although others seem to have had effects with greater gaps. (mine is under half an inch)

Should I attack the gap? I should get better coupling which would be one of the most convincing reasons for failure, but then to complicate matters the magnets will not be attached directly to the cups so we have a gap which we know can stop Thanes effect dead.

Should I remove laminations from the transformers? Maybe

Should I buy a the closest 240v version of Thanes Ryobi motor I can get?

Should I get a 110v motor from overseas?

Should I wind a coil to Thanes specifications? (if so I will need more info from Thane)

Should I wait for the coil from Thane?

Should I replicate Thanes test with an automobile induction coil? (did it show acceleration)

Opinions welcome from anyone, more so if you have got the effect to work.

Quote from: Nali2001 on May 19, 2008, 09:30:00 AM
-Hmm o/p coil? Not sure what you mean. See the attached pictures below.

Sorry, thats a bad habit of mine using abbreviations, like O/P. I know I'll keep doing it though so apologies in advance 
I meant the Out-Put coil or coils, or pickup coils as some might call them.
The coils which are experiencing induction from the rotor magnets and being used to power an external load. Like your globe 

Quote from: Nali2001
-There are two coils in parallel and each is 2.3 ohm (20Gauge wire)

1.15 ohms DC. Good current output capability.

Quote from: Nali2001
-Well the rotor is a double rotor as seen on the pictures. 6 magnets 'pairs' or 12 magnets total (one magnet is 20x40x10mm)

Both ends of your rotor spin simultaneously with respect to each other, so the frequency per rpm only needs representing by one rotor end.
Your rotor uses sets of both magnetic poles, that is, north and south. Each pair of N / S magnets represents 1 true AC sine wave.
Your rotor has 3 N/S pairs at each end, so the AC sine cycle will be 3 per revolution. If your rotor is spinning at 500 rpm , your frequency will be 1500 cpm.
Divide that by 60 (for seconds) and you get 25 HZ ( 25 AC cycles per second ).

Quote from: Nali2001
-With this design that acceleration always kicks in as far as I know. I did make another core model and that indeed required at least an 700rpm+ before acceleration happens.

   

Cheers and KneeDeep