Romero's experiments and OU principles

[wings]

"The voltage (electromotive potential- emp) in the coils is produced by the changing magnetic field strength from the passing magnets (magneto motive force - mmf) of the rotor, and will manifest as current (electromotive force - emf) in the coils, when there is a load connected. This load forms part of the impedance (Z) triangle of RLZ in the phasor diagrams shown at the site link above. When you increase the load (lower the resistance) the phase angle increases.

Counter mmf (counter magneto motive force) is produced by the current (emf) in the coil, and it also arises out of phase with the coil current that is producing it. Conventionally speaking, counter mmf is said to be 180 degrees out of phase with the inducing mmf and is therefore oppositional to the inducing mmf. In reality no inductor is perfect, and the phase is more likely to be between 170 - 179 degrees out of phase depending on the inductors characteristics. Bear in mind, that in a perfect inductor this phase opposition is theoretically a 180 degrees polarity vector difference, but a zero degree difference with respect to time. The time phase is where all the changes occur in this acceleration anomoly!

When there is an incrementally increasing load placed on the coil, the phase angle of the coil current (time lag) increases as the resistance of the load decreases towards S/C. The resulting counter mmf phase angle of the core (time lag) also then changes with respect to the original inducing mmf of the passing magnets. As the counter mmf approaches 90 degrees out of phase (time lag) with the inducing MMF it also approaches physical vector neutrality and thus zero opposition. Since The counter mmf is a product of both the current phase in the coil and the degree of magnetic phase lag due to reluctance of the core material, then the opposition normally produced by the coil current and core drag are nullified together. At short circuit, with maximum current and counter mmf phase angle change, the coil/core appear to magnetically "disappear" with respect to the rotor, and so the rotor accelerates.

Because the motor / drive coils experience less opposition, due to less magnetic drag being placed upon the rotor by the generator coils, it accelerates, resulting in an increased motor back emf and motor coil impedance.

The increase in motor back emf and motor drive coil impedance results in a decreased current input from the supply, and a lower motor power consumption.

The (motor) rotor speed, combined with the number of magnets on the rotor, determines coil current frequency, and plays a very important initial role, because the inductive reactance (XL) of the generating coil increases with frequency. As a consequence, the current phase angle will be greater for a higher frequency coil output than a lower frequency coil output, into the same given load. The acceleration effect will occur at a lower rotor rpm when using high impedance pick up coils than the rpm required when using low impedance pick up coils."

from page 11
http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

[neptune]

@ Romero . You once said that not everyone can play football , but perhaps some people can learn . I am asking you to help us to learn . I have accepted that there are reasons why you will not answer questions in the Muller . Remember that there are a lot of members here . There are people with good workshops and test gear , good brains , and no shortage of money . Then there are people with none of these . But I am sure you will agree that we all have a part to play . As you predicted , people are struggling to build a self runner . But some people have replicated speed up under load , so there is still hope .
      OK . So now I am asking for help for us lesser mortals . Early on , you pointed to 2 much simpler machines that you have seen to be overunity , The Kromrey machine , and the modified model aircraft motor . There was not quite enough information for people to replicate these . So I am asking you to answer some questions , so people with limited resources can see OU for themselves , and thus be encouraged to invest their limited resources into a better machine later .OK I will ask .
        First the Kromrey machine .
1 Can you please give details of the coil windings .
2 Am I right in assuming that each coil [or coil pair] has its own FWBR and these are connected like the muller ?
3 Machine is driven from a separate DC motor {or could use a
separate rotor on the same shaft as a pulse motor]
4 The machine has ferrite
cores shaped like a letter U , with coils wound on the "arms . " Did you buythese or are
they made from iron oxide and resin?
Now the model aircraft motor.
1 There are an even number of pole pieces on which coils are wound . The coils are wound in pairs so that if you connected the pair in series , one would give a N pole and one a S pole . correct?
2Each coil pair has its own FWBR , and these are connected together like muller ?
3 Are the magnets changed in any way?
4 drive is from an external source . [DC or Pulse motor] ?

If you could answer all these questions you would enable many more people to achieve OU . So come on Romero . teach us all to play football .Remember that the best footballer on earth has much more fun as part of a team than playing on his own .
Respect , neptune .

[teslaalset]

@Wings,
I tried earlier to summarize your explanation in a very compact way:
Tangens(alfa) = 2*pi*f*L/R, where alfa is the BEMF lag angle, R is the coil + load resistance, f represents the convolution frequency and L is the coil value in Henry.
90 degrees will be approached when the coil is shortened and it's wire resistance is extreemly low.
We basically mean the same thing I guess.

I am working out the case where additinal coil capacity is included as well.
However due to the selective way of Q&A here I am not going to publish anymore on this.

[woopy]

Hi EM  and peter

That's what i call an out of the box idea.

And yes it interests me a lot

I don't know where we go with it but i have made some test.

Here the scope shot of the both driving coil.

The first is the long pulse of the Hall sensor pointing on the big rotor magnet. As you can see the pulse is about in phase with the generative trace of the motor coils.

The second pix is the "retaining " motor drive , triggered by the very small magnet. The pulse is very short and out of the phase of the generative trace of the motor coil.

To be very clear if i separate the 2 driving coils , each one will spin the rotor in counter direction, and both are in attraction mode as per EM drawing some post earlier.

The motor works well like this, so i will go on the test.

For me it is very clear that the Romero machine consume a very high current in the no load situation. Why ?

For example my motor can go to 1200 rpm with both driving coil working in the same direction with about 150 ma (and less ) at 12 volts.

and with the 2 coils working in opposition i never get that speed and consume arround 350 to 450 ma.

And i have exactly the same rotor dimension as Romero.

So i think this 2 driving coils in opposition is to be investigated ,and also we have to remember  the MOON effect (this very fast optical second pass (which spins in counter direction of the rotor ) we discussed at the beginning of the Romero muller thread ) there was a animated gif but i can not find it, perhaps somebody can recall of  it ?

Anyway bravo EM i will follow your development.

Today my litz wire arrived (by feet from England after  5 week of patience ) so back to the workshop and coil coil coil...

Hope this helps

Good luck at all

[romerouk]

@ Romero . You once said that not everyone can play football , but perhaps some people can learn . I am asking you to help us to learn . I have accepted that there are reasons why you will not answer questions in the Muller . Remember that there are a lot of members here . There are people with good workshops and test gear , good brains , and no shortage of money . Then there are people with none of these . But I am sure you will agree that we all have a part to play . As you predicted , people are struggling to build a self runner . But some people have replicated speed up under load , so there is still hope .
      OK . So now I am asking for help for us lesser mortals . Early on , you pointed to 2 much simpler machines that you have seen to be overunity , The Kromrey machine , and the modified model aircraft motor . There was not quite enough information for people to replicate these . So I am asking you to answer some questions , so people with limited resources can see OU for themselves , and thus be encouraged to invest their limited resources into a better machine later .OK I will ask .
        First the Kromrey machine .
1 Can you please give details of the coil windings .
2 Am I right in assuming that each coil [or coil pair] has its own FWBR and these are connected like the muller ?
3 Machine is driven from a separate DC motor {or could use a
separate rotor on the same shaft as a pulse motor]
4 The machine has ferrite
cores shaped like a letter U , with coils wound on the "arms . " Did you buythese or are
they made from iron oxide and resin?
Now the model aircraft motor.
1 There are an even number of pole pieces on which coils are wound . The coils are wound in pairs so that if you connected the pair in series , one would give a N pole and one a S pole . correct?
2Each coil pair has its own FWBR , and these are connected together like muller ?
3 Are the magnets changed in any way?
4 drive is from an external source . [DC or Pulse motor] ?

If you could answer all these questions you would enable many more people to achieve OU . So come on Romero . teach us all to play football .Remember that the best footballer on earth has much more fun as part of a team than playing on his own .
Respect , neptune .

Hi neptune,
I will answer some of you questions but please just take them just like the results of my experiments and no invitation to replicate, I can be wrong too.

Kromrey machine:
I built 2 of them folowing Bedini info, 2 stacks of magnets, 4 stacks and even tried combinations using 3 and 5 stacks... none of them took me to OU.
I realised that it is not possible to get too far with  the standard config then I tried the same thing but rotating magnets and the coils fixed, no rings,... result much better., I can say OU but no selfloop.
After all this experiments I said, what if I can use the new Kromrey design to drive itself, without a motor... and I used the coils as Driver/Generator. Result very good, again I can say OU but not enough to selfloop.
Aircraft Motors:
I started my muller after playing with some small Turnigy aircraft motors.I have modified them and rewound them in a different way.That gave me for the first time better OU signs with a chance to selfloop but because they are so small It was difficult to play with them without braking the new coils terminals,.. - that was hard work.I looked to get a bigger model to do the same thing , at least not to break the coils everytime I had to do something.I could not find a big enough one.
For people who never opened them before they should know that these motors are using neos inside but you can turn them very easy.The coil/magnet arrangement is (in my small motors tested) 12 magnets/10 coils, 14 magnets/12 coils.I remembered about the Muller device I was reading few years back and that was my starting point.
The new device now I started going back to my initial point, turnigy motors and elimitate all Muller connection.
I keep getting questions about this new build.All I have answered so far is that I am using 32 magnets, actually 64 but they are used in pairs to make 32 larger ones.This is all for now.

@neptune
4 The machine has ferrite
cores shaped like a letter U , with coils wound on the "arms . " Did you buythese or are
they made from iron oxide and resin?

I am not sure what machine you are reffering to.

Best regards,
Romero