Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[DeepCut]

Hi all,

thought i'd drop in and see how it's going.

Nice to see this thread so active (just when i'm taking time off the bench !).

@TinselKoala - great to see you here pal

Great to see Conrad and Gyula developing Conrads (excellently built) motor.

@ synchro

I know MH can seem to be 'raining on our parade' at times, but he is well-educated in electronics and gives us lots of info and great ideas for testing. Please stop insulting him, he doesn't insult you. MH is like drugs, he should be used not abused ;+}

What a long discussion you've all had on polyfilar coils !

A few points.

1. I wound a straight-wound coil, 1LB of 0.28mm wire, tested it for AUL effects and it performed poorly. It did cause acceleration of the rotor and a decrease in input current but only very slight.
2. I rewound the same coil as a bifilar and the increase in acceleration was 4 times that of the straight-wound coil. The drop in input current was also 4 times as large. Perhaps, like induction, there is a quadratic relationship with capacitance at higher frequencies ? I don't know enough to formulate an answer to this.

So, regardless of classical electromagnetic properties, it is thebehaviour of the coil with regards to AUL effects that is important here, and a bifilar outperforms a monofilar. Hands down.

3. In the preceding discussion on induction you have all had, noone has mentioned another key influence on induction, namely, the physical dimensions of the coil. I wound 2LB of coil on a long former and got less inductance than 2LB of coil on a shorter, wider former. To maximise the inductance of your coil, it's length should be between 0.85 and 0.9 times it's radius.

A final thought, on the usefulness of AUL.

Supposing we build our own, standard generator, just a small one to power, say, a 1 watt bulb.

We power our generator, the bulb lights, hooray.

We then introduce a coil that strongly exhibits AUL effects.

This coil increases the rotor speed to beyond that of the setup with the 'normal' generator coils, it also decreases the input current.

Our rotor is now rotating at a higher speed, outputting more voltage, lighting the bulb more brightly than it was before, and all with less input current at the same voltage and therefore less input power.

That's a useful thing ?


All the best,

DC.

[conradelektro]

Hola conradelektro

I use to submerge the bearings some five minutes in acetone or in thinner to clean the grease.
After clean I use any light mineral oil eg. the one used to lubricate sewing machines.
About rotors, I prefer to use the ones that come in old video players, they act also as flywheels.

cheers

@ALVARO_CS: I will try the acetone treatment on my ball bearings, thank you for the suggestion. I have heard about the rotors from old video players. Old video players have become rare, but I will keep it in mind.

Hi all,

A final thought, on the usefulness of AUL.

Supposing we build our own, standard generator, just a small one to power, say, a 1 watt bulb.

We power our generator, the bulb lights, hooray.

We then introduce a coil that strongly exhibits AUL effects.

This coil increases the rotor speed to beyond that of the setup with the 'normal' generator coils, it also decreases the input current.

Our rotor is now rotating at a higher speed, outputting more voltage, lighting the bulb more brightly than it was before, and all with less input current at the same voltage and therefore less input power.

That's a useful thing ?

All the best,

DC.

@DC: A generator (which produces electricity) is generally not driven by an electric motor (which needs electricity). Usually a generator is driven by a Diesel engine, a water turbine or a wind wheel. Would the AUL effect speed up a Diesel engine or a water turbine or a wind wheel?

hey tinselkoala,kondralektro,ive often wondered what would happen if we used a steorn setup,using normal inductor coils instead of toroids,and simply short-circuit the coil as the magnet passes by,would this counter the magnetic attraction?any ideas?

@profits: I do not really know, but I suspect that shorting the coil while the magnet is passing the coil will cause a strong pull or drag on the magnet. Nothing beats a test, but it seems difficult to design a circuit which will do the driving and the shorting of the coil automatically (unless one uses a microprocessor to control each of the four MOSFETs in the H-bridge according to some program which uses the Hall sensor for timing).

Greetings, Conrad

[gyulasun]

Hi Conrad,

Some comments on sensor coil and reed switch:  yes, sensor coil can be small and handy and easy to explore its best position. Question is what you drive with it? say you drive the base-emitter of a bipolar transistor then I think a reed switch can also do that job in the same way when you use a few kOhm resistor in series with it which also serves as a base current injection to the transistor anyway so the current can be small via the reed. And you can find the same good position for the reed but I agree that many times a reed may need a separate control disk with small magnets on it to work reliable. On control disk I have referred to you already at a Bedini motor (zero force motor 2nd version, see second video link below) and he used reed switch, at rotor speed I estimate at least to be several thousand rpm. Of course a separate control disk needs some more job and material to build and anything you use is fine with me,



Would like to show you a video on Bedini's so called 'zero force motor'. It seems very simple, at least this first version he showed a few years ego at energetic forum (but later he deleted it). See this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpDMMcNQxc someone uploaded it again.
You can see a rotor with some cylinder Neo magnets, all like poles out and the coil is positioned tangentionally to the rotor. He says it is a no Lenz, no backemf motor, a more advanced version of this can also be seen on youtube but it has a ring shape stator with coils on the ring, its link is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TICXxP1jI4  Unfortunately, the very little info is what could be guessed from these videos, no further details have been given.

The coil position as shown in the first video above i.e. turning it sideways instead of the 'usual facing magnet' position was tested also by Naudin, you may have seen it in the right hand side scope shot here: http://jnaudin.free.fr/images/magconfig.gif  (and you can read about his findings in this link: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm )

So what I would suggest is first to explore what waveform your present ring magnet would induce with its changing poles in such sideway positioned coil (because the interesting waveform shown on the right hand side is always made by a single pole, (only the voltage polarity flips) either a N or S but not by suddenly changing poles your ring magnet presently has.
Probably the induced waveform you may see will be different from that.  I editied your earlier magnet-coil position drawing to show 2 coils tangentially fixed wrt the rotor magnet above and below it (on the left and the right hand side of the ring magnet) or I considered the two coils either at one side or both sides of the ring (in this latter case coil length may be an issue). I show you all this because both pole ends of the drive coils are utilized. The ON time should be figured out of course (probably 25% is good).

These are only suggestions, of course I do not mean in any way to 'influence' your own way what kind of setups or circuits you build.

rgds, Gyula

PS If there is a television and video repair service near to your location, you could inquire about faulty VCR heads  (I mean even rotors with some aging problem in their bearings) because they are replaced to new ones and the old one is not renewed) such rotors can still be very useful for tinkering.

[gyulasun]

Hi DeepCut,

On your few points:
1) it would be important to know that the 1LB coil you mention was present already physically in the setup but was not shorted when you measured the normal input current and RPM? or you measured the input current and RPM without the 1LB coil, logged those data and then you brought it into the setup and shorted it?
2) it would be good to know whether the same wire lenght (that the earlier 1LB coil had) was used to make the bifilar coil?
3) Yes I agree there is the so called Brooks coil shape which insures the biggest inductance to get from a given length of wire (you can google as Brooks coil to see the geometry ratio) but for generator coils the maximum or too high inductance coil is not always the best choice due to the increasing losses, for motor coils it could be a choice.

On your final thought:

if the answer to the question in the 1st point above is that the 1LB coil was not present first when you measured the input current and RPM and then introducing it and shorting it caused a decrease in input current with respect to the earlier input current, besides an increase in RPM, then yes it would be a useful thing. It is a question whether it could already give enough extra output for a possible looping to self run but the efficiency would certainly improve.

rgds, Gyula

[profitis]

thanx conradelektro.im more a electrochemist than electrician but im looking for evidence of a 2nd law thermodynamics violation amongst electromagnetic systems as i have found plenty evidence in electrochemical systems.could you or perhaps anybody else here tell me if you have ever verified(to yourselves) that the kickback energy on any coil inductor has ever been measured to be greater/larger than input energy?  Many thanks