Rosch taking orders on OU Bouyancy device.

[Pirate88179]

The old war pilots told of overspeed events in their old spitfires and Hurricanes and so forth, the problem was that the faster they went the harder it became to effect any control surface movements, well before any parts came off the planes, this prevented them from pulling out of attacking dives if they dove too long and gained too much speed. The plane then becomes kind of like a plain old rocket but only powered by an ICE. No control. But with fly by wire now that becomes either the hydraulics refuse to exert the force required or the force is exerted and the surfaces get damaged or torn off.

the plane would want to keep going in it's native trim in relation to its orientation to the ground.

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That was called compressibility.  Shock waves would form on the edges of the control surfaces and render them useless at various times...even before Mach 1 was reached.  Yeager, from diving Mustangs wide open in WWII, knew that as you approached the speed of sound, you lost some of the control-ability of the aircraft.  As he discovered flying the Glamorous Glennis over Mach 1, you actually regained some of the control you lost in approaching Mach 1 as the shock waves moved beyond the control surfaces.

You could probably loop a 767 and have the airframe survive.  There are a lot of safety margins built into the design of an aircraft like this.
A good example is some of the photos of the B-17's returning to the airfields in WWII with major portions of the fuselage and control surfaces totally gone...yet they made it back safe.  I believe that was due to not only incredible design and engineering efforts, but also to the fudge factors giving a greater safety margin than most folks realize.

Bill

[tinman]

Tinman, you are simply wrong about the speeds of a 767 aircraft. I see that you have now changed your "speed limit" from the previously stated "220" maximum, though.


Vmo is the maximum _allowable_ speed, Va is the "maneuvering speed". The airplane will not "come apart" if you exceed Vmo, though, as long as you are gentle on the controls and don't hit much turbulence. There is considerable design margin built in to the Vmo speed limit.  If you don't care about those things you can easily exceed Vmo in level flight, even at sea level. The 767 is powerful enough to take off fully loaded _on one engine_. It is easily powerful enough to exceed Vmo at sea level in level flight, and do it without "coming apart."

See the graph below, of Vmo vs. altitude for the 767 series.

You may find the following article of interest:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-the-role-of-aeroelastic-flutter-in-the-events-of-9-11.3359/

TK
I respect what you are saying,and yes,it seems that the 220MPH is off (i can admit when im wrong).BUT you show a Vmo of 414.25MPH at sea level to 26000 feet. MarkE and his !so called !reputable reports insist on air speeds of 500MPH and 570MPH. This is way way above Vmo,and no unmodified 757 or 767 can travel at that speed at just above sea level. If you can provide evidence to the contrary,then i will be happy to conceed. Also take into account that the guys that apparently managed to fly these planes way over Vmo speed-(not just a little over,but way over) couldnt even fly a single engine cessna very well at all.

[Farmhand]

Pirate I was referring to over speed events in aircraft under the speed of sound, even without approaching Mach 1 many older planes became almost uncontrollable and just continued to dive into the ground it is well documented, and spoken by the pilots themselves. The controls become so heavy
the pilot cannot pull out of the dive in time. So a lack of control due to over speed but no breaking up of the plane until ground strike.

[tinman]

Tinman, you are simply wrong about the speeds of a 767 aircraft. I see that you have now changed your "speed limit" from the previously stated "220" maximum, though.


Vmo is the maximum _allowable_ speed, Va is the "maneuvering speed". The airplane will not "come apart" if you exceed Vmo, though, as long as you are gentle on the controls and don't hit much turbulence. There is considerable design margin built in to the Vmo speed limit.  If you don't care about those things you can easily exceed Vmo in level flight, even at sea level. The 767 is powerful enough to take off fully loaded _on one engine_. It is easily powerful enough to exceed Vmo at sea level in level flight, and do it without "coming apart."

See the graph below, of Vmo vs. altitude for the 767 series.

You may find the following article of interest:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-the-role-of-aeroelastic-flutter-in-the-events-of-9-11.3359/

Here is a limitations review from boeing.

A quote from that review-: Exceeding Vmo/Mmo can pose a threat to exceeding
design structural integrity and design stability & control
criteria of the airplane.

http://www.recreationalflying.com/tutorials/groundschool/VMO_MMO_Limitations_Review.pdf

[Farmhand]

Once the suicide pilot inverted the plane and pointed it towards the ground all he had to do was keep it going down and the plane exceeded Mach 1 without breaking up much at that point it would be uncontrollable for all intents and purposes. Any forced control surface movements or even trim surfaces may have been caused to tear away, but the plane would continue on an almost direct path. So diving into a building at well up to Mach 1 is possible in my opinion.

That doesn't mean the official story is correct about 911 though, the planes could still have been remotely controlled. After all they can fly a Global Hawk from the U.S. to Australia and land it then fly it back again all with no pilot on board, unmanned. The very same or similar Tech could be utilized.

The first plane was seen be traveling at what looked to me like normal speeds anyway.

..