Marko Rodin Coil -- 007 Device

[Dog-One]

I think you are probably correct Brad.  Indications are that all wires are connected in the same direction.  No cancellation.

Back to square one...

[tinman]

I think you are probably correct Brad.  Indications are that all wires are connected in the same direction.  No cancellation.

Back to square one...

I will be catching up with Russ on skype soon,so i will get the answer,and post here when i have it.

Anyone have any idea as to how accurate those analog meters will be in those conditions?


Brad

[TinselKoala]

I've read through the thread on Russ's site but I can't see diagrams, etc. there, so I still have no idea just what schematic is being tested, or how. But what I DID see in that thread is that the Power Analysis software that Russ's scope has in it is giving him results that are different from what he gets by just multiplying everything together willy-nilly.

I also noted that the Current Probe he has bought has its own phase shift that needs to be accounted for, and the Data Sheet for the probe only lists the phase shift from DC to 65 Hz, whereas the useful range of the probe is 100 kHz. Why doesn't the data sheet give full information about the phase shift/response latency of the probe?

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/AEMC/pdf/sl261.pdf

As I've recommended before, anyone using active current or voltage probes needs to understand that they will inevitably have some delay (phase shift) of their own and so must be calibrated in whatever setup is being used in order to give accurate results. Most Tek high-end scopes have a "De-skew" function that allows this calibration to be inserted into the scope's readings. Even my bottom-end Rigol has a delay feature that allows this correction to be inserted and corrected for in a channel's readings. At the very least, for active current probes, one should do a simultaneous reading with the active current probe, and a normal passive voltage probe looking across an inline non-inductive current-viewing resistor, to see how much the active probe shifts phase compared to the passive voltage probe.

My impression from reading the thread is that not many people there actually know what's going on. It's good to see Matt Watts posting there. The fact that Russ was using AC-coupling initially is not a very good sign.... it indicates that he has his hands more than full with respect to making power measurements on the scope.
Hopefully he will take advice, learn to use his equipment properly, and especially, learn to use the Power Analysis software addon in his scope.

I can probably still borrow a proper wideband power analyzer, and I'd be more than happy to perform some tests, if I had the properly wound Coils to work with.

I don't see anything in what Russ or others have posted that indicate that they are doing or even considering doing the proper control experiments, that is, comparing the performance of the Rodin coil with an ordinary air-core solenoidal coil of matching inductance, resistance etc.

The videos are just too long. If someone who has watched them can point out some timestamps where something significant is shown, I'd be grateful.

Meanwhile, I'll still bet a cheezburger that the real issue here is simply one of reactive power being mistaken for real power.

[TinselKoala]

I will be catching up with Russ on skype soon,so i will get the answer,and post here when i have it.

Anyone have any idea as to how accurate those analog meters will be in those conditions?


Brad

The meters may give a good "average" of voltage and current. They will _not_ tell you the phase difference between voltage and current, which is the critical point. They will also introduce errors and phase shifts of their own. There simply isn't enough detail in what I've seen to be able to tell for sure just how useful the analog meters can be. The setup needs to be calibrated in various ways.

Again, my MicroQEG playlist covers a lot of the possible effects and possible measurement errors in this type of reactive power situation. (And the whole list is not that long to watch....) I wonder if Russ has watched it.

Maybe the MicroQEG circuit is even appropriate to drive the Rodin coil, instead of the expensive audio amplifier+signal generator setup, since it is auto-resonating and will automagically drive the coil at the resonant frequency set by the coil and the parallel capacitors used to form the output tank circuit.

A proper power analyzer, or maybe Russ's scope's Power Analyzer software, needs to be understood and correctly applied to this problem.

[tinman]

They will also introduce errors and phase shifts of their own. There simply isn't enough detail in what I've seen to be able to tell for sure just how useful the analog meters can be. The setup needs to be calibrated in various ways.

Again, my MicroQEG playlist covers a lot of the possible effects and possible measurement errors in this type of reactive power situation. (And the whole list is not that long to watch....) I wonder if Russ has watched it.

Maybe the MicroQEG circuit is even appropriate to drive the Rodin coil, instead of the expensive audio amplifier+signal generator setup, since it is auto-resonating and will automagically drive the coil at the resonant frequency set by the coil and the parallel capacitors used to form the output tank circuit.

The meters may give a good "average" of voltage and current. They will _not_ tell you the phase difference between voltage and current, which is the critical point.

Yes,this is true.
But in saying that,if they were out(phase angles)to much,then the output would have also been low,and it would seem,looking at the load,that there is a good amount of power being delivered to the load. Once again,i know the brightness of lights is in no way any sort of power measurement,but it is there--how much?,who knows ATM.

A proper power analyzer, or maybe Russ's scope's Power Analyzer software, needs to be understood and correctly applied to this problem.

Indeed.
I see in his first video,he was using AC coupling on the scope. Maybe the results would be different if he used DC coupling?.

Brad