AC voltage from single magnetic pole

[partzman]

Verpies,

I see that Itsu ran your preferred bicycle test and the conclusion came out with no phase shift.  However, If I understood you correctly (which I may not of), you said the induction source was not important.  If so, how do you explain the experiment I ran in post #133 with a follow up in post #139?  This experiment used a common induction source balanced between the two secondaries and there is obvious phase shift as per Nix's claim!

I lost sleep over this trying to understand!

Regards,
Pm

It seems that both Verpies and Nix may both be correct as certain test results seem to be time dependent!  I will be attempting to show what I mean later today.

Regards,
Pm

[partzman]

OK, this is a test that is quite revealing IMO.  It shows that both Verpies and Nix are correct in their arguments depending on the time rate of induction for a given L/R.

For example, the test device is shown in the first pix and is basically the same bucking arrangement show in an earlier post but this time it has two identical secondaries to measure voltage and current.  The driver for the primaries is a solid state power amp as before.

The first scope pix shows a single pulse of a 20kHz sinewave in CH1(yel) that is applied to the bucking primaries.  CH4(grn) is the current in the secondary closest to the center of the bucking coils and CH3(pnk) is voltage across the secondary that is the farther away from the center of the bucking coils.  From this we see the current lag behind the voltage approaches 90 degrees.

The second scope pix shows the same layout and connections only now, the single pulse sinewave is 400Hz.  We can clearly see that the current lags the voltage only by a few degrees.  This particular scenario is close to Itsu's setup as the PMs on the wheel are operating with long periods that allow the voltage and current to be in phase.

My conclusion: The current being in-phase with the voltage or lagging the voltage by any amount, is dependent on the period of time the source induction is applied.  This means the result is dependent on the L/R of the coils being measured and compared.

I will run this same comparative test with the three side-by-side coils to see if the results are the same.

Regards,
Pm

[partzman]

Here is the 3 coil setup.  It is basically the same type of test as the previous except the primary coil or the middle coil has 3019 pot cores inserted into it to raise the inductance at the lower frequencies.

First pix is the layout, 2nd pix is the test at 20kHz and the 3rd pix is at 50Hz.

I guess a question would be if Itsu spun his bicycle wheel at a higher RPM, would the in-phase current begin to lag toward 90 degrees?

Regards,
Pm

Edited-

[nix85]

I don't see how Verpies can be right, he claims just the opposite, that higher frequency/speed will not produce the delay. It's not a matter of who's right in ego sense, i don't give a damn, it's just that he claims opposite of what happens.

[partzman]

Hi guys.


First a big thanks to both Pm and Itsu for their tests.


Pm,  I see Verpies hasn't answered you yet so if you don't mind I will take a shot at answering your question.  I hope Verpies will soon answer and make any corrections needed to my answer.  I think the difference in your test and Itsu's is the way you are measuring the current.  By using a second coil to measure the current you are essentially measuring the secondary of a transformer.  And of course the secondary is a reactive component.  And any generating coil or power source will exhibit the voltage leading the current in an inductive reactive circuit.  And also exhibit the current leading the voltage if the the circuit is a capacitive reactive circuit.


Hopefully Verpies will explain that better than I have.


Respectfully,
Carroll

Carroll,

I see that I missed your post, sorry!  Yes, I agree with you.  However, I think Verpies said that any source of induction could be used as long as it was not considered in the analysis.  I'm probably wrong on this and he will correct me I'm sure.

Regards,
Pm