Curled Ballisitic Thermionics

[retroworm]

Yeh, I suppose you are right. Another thing I later spotted, if the returning current goes towards the center within the magnetic field, it will cause opposing torque and slow it down.

But I feel you were arguing slightly beside the point about the magnet recoil.
When freely flying electron enters a magnetic field, it will accelerate tangentially (as you well know ). But doesn't this effect also affect the magnet that is producing the field? Reaction to every action, right?

[Philip Hardcastle]

Hi Retroworm, Wow

Your question of reaction of the magnet to the electron curling is unexpected and a bit mind bending.

If it were so, for the sake of the argument, then that would mean the magnet could be the rotor. Now the electrons going inner to outer would be one set to consider reaction to and the outer to inner, the other. Argument would seem to be that both are bending say clockwise and so are additive.

Now if torque were tranfered to the magnet and the magnet allowed to rotate coupled to a shaft doing work, that would require the electrons to lose kinetic energy (velocity).

The reaction is of course is to each individual electron in its own say 10um radius curl and to be perfectly honest I am not sure in my mind if tiny circles of reaction convert to macro torque in the magnetic field ring. I think that the answer must be no otherwise would not any piece of metal rotate when a magnetic was introduced for that magnetic field would act upon free electrons in the metal?

Retroworm, your question is just too hard for me to give a yes or no to at 8:30 in the morning, my off hand view is that the answer is no but...... maybe it is yes and you have found an improvement or something. I reckon to be sure it is a question that should be thrown open to others.

Phil H

 

[BEP]

I'll save you all some brain teasing....

The answer is no. You will never have reactive torque on the magnet.
The easiest way for me to understand the concept is to think of the magnet as an optical lens. the lens just directs and focuses the light. The lens does not generate light.

A magnet can only focus or shape the magnetic flux. It does not generate it. You can move one magnet with another but it is the fields that are meeting, not the magnets.

The moving electrons change direction because the magnetic flux will not, among other reasons 

[retroworm]

Hmm, that is weird...and interesting. I thought it would be similar to railguns and the like, which is similar in principle, but quite definitely do produce recoil. On second thought, that is probably due to the magnetic field induced to the projectile by the current going through it.
...I hope my ignorance about the subject isn't shining too brightly here .

But but but but...suppose we can redirect stream of electrons (or even protons) without reaction and collide them to a plate, and suppose that the system is linear and not circular like this motor, wouldn't it produce net momentum? Anti Newton 3rd as well?
Something is a miss here...

One clarification to phil

...Now the electrons going inner to outer would be one set to consider reaction to and the outer to inner, the other. Argument would seem to be that both are bending say clockwise and so are additive.

Now if torque were tranfered to the magnet and the magnet allowed to rotate coupled to a shaft doing work, that would require the electrons to lose kinetic energy (velocity). 

It's not about which way they are curling, it's more in which direction they are moving around the center of the rotor. That means in the interleaved case it would not be apparent since the movements would cancel each other out. But if what BEP is saying is true, this won't be a factor either way.

The electron do lose energy as radiation as they curl. Particle collider detectors have large magnets that force particles to spiraling path and record the emitted radiation.

[Philip Hardcastle]

Hi Retrowrom,

This is a side issue but it is interesting.

I am on the road in 5 minutes so this has to be quick - ie it might be wrong or poorly thought through.

Following on from my prior post. Let us assume that for a single elctron curling there is a reactive torque, but it must be limited to the area of the magnet creating that flux, ie a tiny tiny magnet of just 10um diameter. Now if such a micro magnet were looked at in terms of an elctron being curled in its field then I would not be surprised if there were some opposite torque.

But....... if all the micro curl torques are put into one macro magnet it would seem to me that perhaps we should calculate reaction torque as the curl radius / circumference ie say 50cm radius then we have torque x (5um/5ocmm = 5/ 500,000 =1:100.000 or

Magnet macro torque = (curl torque) /100,000

Now that figure is interesting, if true, and if you take a massive number of amps as previously proposed it may amount to a measureable amount. However this is not well thought through but it does seem to make some sense at 9a.m in the morning as I am packing to go.

I really think this needs open discussion, I have made curled ballistics available to all so I need to get others like you, retro, to own it.

I note no one has claimed my offered $1,000 prize.

Phil H