exploiting equilibrium

[Comassion]

Can you draw a series of diagrams showing how this is supposed to work, and label the forces involved in each state?  I'm just not grokking this device from the descriptions.

[mr_bojangles]

ok heres a couple quick drawings that may be used to express this further

total length of incline = 14'
the distance between the incline and the fulcrum = 4'
distance between fulcrum and counterweight = 2'
mass of everything above fulcrum = (x)
with the mass of our counterweight being a tiny bit >(x)


well say starting position is the second drawing, consider the disc, and fulcrum to be locked in place for now

1. release mechanism (fulcrum)
     - counterweight swings
     - pendulum action occurs, bringing it nearly back to the starting point on the opposite side,

2. energy is first used in combination with momentum from swinging, using a force equal to the difference in weight (the closer they are in weight, the more efficient it will be), going an extremely small distance back to the same degree as starting position

3. the disc is released, rolling 14' down the incline, on both sides are free standing stators, lorentz force is now fighting the angular momentum (the disk actually rolling down the incline)
     - disc reaches other side and locks

4. repeat

by moving the difference in weight less than a foot results in the disc moving 14'
no lorentz or lenz law is ever combated with directly
incline can be infinitely long, infinite mass
disc can be infinite mass, as long as counterweight is slightly heavier than both

if the distance from the fulcrum to the incline is twice as much as the distance from the fulcrum to the counterweight, it results in twice as much distance for the incline, which as well can be increased to near infinity

i dont no what else to say that i havent already said before

hope this helped

until next time...
     

[Comassion]

Okay, I see why it wouldn't work.

In step 2, the energy you need to use increases by the length of the apparatus, because you need to apply more force to lift the disc up the further away it is from the fulcrum (leverage is working against you here).  The energy used in step 2 isn't likely to be fully regained from step 3.

As you place a weight (the rolling magnet) on the low end of the device for every cycle, the device needs to do more work when it swings to lift that weight upwards - in short, the energy used in step 2 needs to compensate for not only the distance shifted, but also for moving a greater distance than you are anticipating, because shifting the weight has shifted the center of gravity of the device - and shifted it so that it is not in your favor.

[mr_bojangles]

that's why the bottom must be slightly heavier

your looking at it as if they were equal in weight

if the bottom as a whole weighs more than the top, no matter the position of the roller or distance from fulcrum, it will still create a pendulum effect and not have the negative effects that a normal lever would

we are not trying to do work on the disc, we are doing work on the incline and allowing gravity to move the disc for us, in a controlled fashion

the reason distance matter is due to the weight of the lever which is considered to be uniform

obviously if you take a lever, of uniform weight, and make one side closer to the fulcrum it will unbalance

however if one side is twice as long, yet half as thick, you will have a balanced lever, and placing the same amount of weight on both sides would allow it to stay balanced as well, yet one is twice as far from the fulcrum

this is the same concept, the counterweight is slightly larger than the combined mass and torque of the incline and the mass

the counterweight is the easiest part because all we need to do is add more weight, and we have as much as we want for any system

basically any torque the magnet could put on it will still be less than the weight of the counterweight, and the pendulum effect can be exploited

[Comassion]

that's why the bottom must be slightly heavier

your looking at it as if they were equal in weight

if the bottom as a whole weighs more than the top, no matter the position of the roller or distance from fulcrum, it will still create a pendulum effect and not have the negative effects that a normal lever would

You must still deal with leverage.  Your counterweight is going to be very close to the fulcrum, and won't exert a great deal of torque compared to the magnet all the way out at the end.  Unless your counterweight is significantly heavier (perhaps 10x heavier) than the rolling magnet, you won't get much of a pendulum effect.  Of course, the heavier you make the counterweight, the more energy you must use in step 2 to try to get to your mirrored position where you can roll the magnet down the incline.

we are not trying to do work on the disc, we are doing work on the incline and allowing gravity to move the disc for us, in a controlled fashion

Because the incline is supporting the disc, any work you do on the incline will also move the disc.  Therefore any work on the incline is also work on the disc (to move it upward to where gravity can start taking effect to roll said disc).

the reason distance matter is due to the weight of the lever which is considered to be uniform

But you must take into consideration the weight of your shifting magnet disc, which will make the weight of the lever non-uniform depending on which side it is currently on.

obviously if you take a lever, of uniform weight, and make one side closer to the fulcrum it will unbalance

however if one side is twice as long, yet half as thick, you will have a balanced lever, and placing the same amount of weight on both sides would allow it to stay balanced as well, yet one is twice as far from the fulcrum

But you have no means of doing this in your design.  You're just placing (or allowing gravity to place) extra weight on the lower end of the apparatus, making the lower end the heavier one.

this is the same concept, the counterweight is slightly larger than the combined mass and torque of the incline and the mass

the counterweight is the easiest part because all we need to do is add more weight, and we have as much as we want for any system

The length of the counterweight from the fulcrum matters a great deal - just having more mass than the rest of the apparatus won't necessarily allow you to swing it like a pendulum.

basically any torque the magnet could put on it will still be less than the weight of the counterweight, and the pendulum effect can be exploited

Have you considered that the pendulum effect will take place around the (offset) center of gravity of the device, and not around the actual center?  That's what I'm getting at - the pendulum won't swing out to anywhere near it's mirror image on the other side, and you'll have to make up for that by adding energy to the system.