UFO politics Keeps his word 12-12 12 Let the games begin.......

[TinselKoala]

 

Originally Posted by machinealive :  If you have 12 watt light, with 12 v and 1amp.

If you lower the voltage,  amps will go up if there is a source to draw from, to give same 12 watts.
if you lower the volts, watts out will go down if there is no source to provide extra current,why would amps not stay the same, or decrease? therefore less then 12 watts, and light dims.

(emphasis mine)

And this was agreed to by UFO (See the image of the post below).

Either I am somehow misunderstanding what is being said, or these two have a profound misunderstanding of the relationship between Voltage, Current, and Resistance.

So..... whatever the context of UFO's speech about measurements, it really does matter that people share some common understanding of terms and the very basics of circuit analysis..... before they go off making outrageous claims that get people all excited.

Or is there some missing "context" here that I am not taking into consideration?

If I am wrong in what I said above, would someone explain why.

Would someone explain to _me_ why nobody explained this to _him_ in the UFO-party thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Kbe0YXyPw

[picowatt]

Well, I have finished reading the entire thread and watching the videos over there.  Not one measurement of efficiency on any of the modified motors was ever performed.  If I somehow missed an efficiency test, someone please point it out to me.

One poster, Turion, came closest to making a measurement, and began putting together a Prony, but apparently abandoned that, as I never saw any results posted.  He did make one anecdotal comment regarding torque or something, but no measurements that indicated improved efficiency were ever posted.  It is a shame, as he spent quite a bit on scales and such.  Had he replaced his rubber bungee or v belt (he might have cut a v belt and applied bungee hook ends to it, was hard to tell) and v pulley with a leather or metal belt and a drum pulley, he very likely would have been able to collect some great data.  (too much "stiction" from heating bounced his scale readings all over the place)

Early on, I believe he also wanted to use an unmodified RS motor as a generator, and drive it electricaly loaded with a modified and unmodified motor to see which was more efficient at driving the generaor.  That was, I believe, a brilliant, low cost, and simple way to determine if any efficiency improvement resulted from the new winding method.  But again, that method was abandoned, with his initial results not looking well for the mod.

For those that may be upset about me taking a quote from UFO out of context, I highly recommend reading the pages that lead up to that quoted statement.

UFO is all over the place with his measurement methods.  One method mentioned was to feed power to the motor and measure the unloaded output voltage from the output (generator) brush pairs.  I believe in the example he was driving the motor at 10 volts, and the output voltage was 18 volts, so that was a COP of 1.8, or something to that effect.  Another method, wherein I guess he figured current had to be accounted for somehow, he subtracted the output voltage from the drive voltage, and then multiplied that result by the amp draw.  So, for example, if it took 10 volts at 10 amps to drive the motor, most would consider that to be 100 watts.  But, if the output brush pair measured 8 volts (unloaded mind you), we subtract 8 from 10, and then multiply the remaining 2 volts by the 10 amps for 20 watts.  Amazing...

When anyone made mention of any type of measurement or observation that did not bode well for or questioned the mod motors' efficiency, UFO would pull out the all caps, large fonts, sarcastic emoticons, and remind all how much he knows that others don't.  Reminded me a lot of someone else who likes to use a lot of glowy text...

So yeah, I thought the quote I posted was quite telling, and I would not have bothered to post it if UFO had been pushing for proper and sensible measurement methods. 

Someone here asked why else would people be spending big bucks on larger motors if the low cost RS mod did not perform as expected.  And I too echo that question.  In my read, as I did not see even one measurement of efficiency improvement with the new winding method using the RS motor, I too question why some moved on to build other motors, without testing the first mods properly before doing so.

Many over there are dedicated builders/winders, and I wish them luck for all their efforts, but even now it seems UFO is talking about an even larger motor so as to mechanically "hammer" the load.

There are a lot of talented people over there, and as a group, they could likely accomplish a lot.  As followers,  I am not so sure...

That's just my take on the whole read... no evidence of improved efficiency, no evidence of OU.


PW

   

[scratchrobot]

  (emphasis mine)

And this was agreed to by UFO (See the image of the post below).

Either I am somehow misunderstanding what is being said, or these two have a profound misunderstanding of the relationship between Voltage, Current, and Resistance.

So..... whatever the context of UFO's speech about measurements, it really does matter that people share some common understanding of terms and the very basics of circuit analysis..... before they go off making outrageous claims that get people all excited.

Or is there some missing "context" here that I am not taking into consideration?


Would someone explain to _me_ why nobody explained this to _him_ in the UFO-party thread?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Kbe0YXyPw

They have their own OHM's law 

[MileHigh]

PW:

Thanks for doing all that hard work for me!  lol

No measurements of any substance performed on the modified motors?  Dang!

Let me segue shamelessly into a sales pitch I already made.

I am assuming that many experimenters bought two small identical DC motors.  Perhaps they have three small identical motors, that would be even better.  So if they use one as a generator connected to a big resistor they can test different motor configurations by driving the generator + resistor at the same RPM.  (Note the generator setup does not necessarily have to be done with an identical motor.)

Now any keeners should be able to do the basic number crunching and measuring that goes along with the following discussion:

Let's assume you want to have the big resistor dissipate about 3 watts at say 3600 RPM.   With a true-RMS meter and trying different load resistance values and using an unmodified motor to drive the generator you find a setup that comes close to your target.  Say for the sake of argument you find a resistor setup that gives you 2.8 watts of dissipation at 3600 RPM.

Step 1: The first thing you have to do is measure the DC voltage and the average current that you had to drive the original motor with so that the rotor turns at 3600 RPM and drives the generator setup to dissipate 2.8 watts in the load resistor.  You multiply the voltage and the average current to get the input power for the original motor configuration.   That is your reference for the next test.

Step 2: Now take your UFO-modified asymmetrical version of the same motor and connect it to the generator.  Measure the DC voltage and average current required to drive the generator at 3600 PM.

Step 3: Compare the power consumed by the original unmodified motor and the UFO-modified motor and see which one performed better.

This is a simple way to ensure you are putting the same mechanical load on the original and modified motors.  You will know right away if the UFO-modified motor performs better or not.

Note:  I haven't forgotten the fact that the UFO-modified motor can be a generator at the same time that it's motor.  Go for it and make the measurements; while keeping the RPM at 3600 by tweaking the supply voltage, try adding different load resistors to the generator output of the modified motor and with your true-RMS meter measure the power being dissipated in the local load resistor.  Create a table and share your data with the other experimenters.

Required equipment:

Two or three identical motors
Shaft coupler
Some resistors to connect in parallel and/or series to create your 3-watt load bank
Variable power supply
Optical tachometer
One digital multimeter
One true-RMS digital multimeter
Calculator or spreadsheet

MileHigh

[Ian Koglin]

For those who only think they know what ohms law is

here is a refresher in OHM's Law

Ohms law  Is an inverse proportional law Look here  with regard inverse proportionality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(mathematics)
The concept of inverse proportionality can be contrasted against direct proportionality. Consider two variables said to be "inversely proportional" to each other. If all other variables are held constant, the magnitude or absolute value of one inversely proportional variable will decrease if the other variable increases, while their product (the constant of proportionality k) is always the same.
Ohms Law states that Power = Volts x Amps
Examples
Ohms law says  Power =Volts x Amps   

Therefore

720P =240v x 3A   and  720P = 120v x 6A  and 720P = 60v  x 12A   
Not
720P= 50v x 12A
or
720P =10v x 3A

PLease Moderators ban me from this list I do not want to even look at list again as too many people do not know what they are saying
or care to know what they are saying is correct and therefore say others are just like them

Good Bye