Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[tinman]

I think that I can see the reason for the higher voltage measurement on the inner secondary as compared to the outer secondary.

Look at the attached diagram.  When the inner secondary and outer secondary are both under load, the red zone is an area of flux cancellation between the inner secondary and the outer secondary.  That means that the outer secondary sees less net flux than the inner secondary and therefore will have less voltage output.   When you change the loading conditions on the inner secondary and the outer secondary then the observed voltages will also change because of what happens in the red zone.

I am going to use "In" and "Out" for a flux direction into the page and out of the page.  We will say that the primary produces flux into the page.  Let's look at the setup under load:

______________ Blue Zone ____________  Red Zone

Primary _________ In ___________________ In

Inner Sec. ______ Out___________________  In

Outer Sec. ______ Out ___________________ Out


You can see how the inner and outer secondaries produce opposite flux to the primary when under load in the blue zone.  This is normal, and how a normal transformer operates.

You can see how the inner and outer secondaries produce opposite flux to each other when under load other in the red zone.  This reduces the voltage output on the secondary.

In addition, for a normal transformer setup (blue zone only) under load, the inner secondary "Out" flux and the outer secondary "Out" flux compete with each other for the available "In" flux from the primary.  The values of the load resistors and the number of turns in each coil and the wire resistance of each cool are factors that determine the output voltages on the two secondaries.

So a more exhaustive investigation is required to do this experiment properly.  Also, using LEDs for a "quick and dirty" check of what's going on is fine, but they should NEVER be used for any serious investigation along these lines because they are NON LINEAR devices and will throw a monkey wrench into all of your measurements and investigations.  Using ordinary LINEAR resistors with no FWBR and varying the values of the load resistors is the way to go.

I think you will find it's a little more complicated than that MH.
1- removing the load from the inner secondary has little effect on the outer secondary
2- removing the load from the outer secondary has little effect on the inner secondary.
3-the primary couples with the inner secondary extremely well.
4- the inner secondary,if used as the primary dose not couple with either of the two outer windings very well at all.

I am happy to carry out any test anyone here may wish me to do,and post the results both in numbers and by way of video.

[MileHigh]

1- removing the load from the inner secondary has little effect on the outer secondary

This is an example of the same old issue that I have with you.  You are not even bothering to specify what the inner secondary load is.  Are you talking about a 0.01 ohm load, a 120 ohm load, or a 100 Kohm load?  Likewise you are not even bothering to specify if the secondary is loaded or unloaded, and if it is loaded you are not bothering to specify what the load is.  Also, you are not even addressing the issue that I raised of the flux cancellation in the red zone.

I fully agree that things may be more complicated.  If you were going to do this experiment properly you would also measure the primary power in and the power outs for the inner and outer secondaries.

This is all up to you.  You can put as little or as much effort into the experiment as you choose and you can document it verbally "on the fly" as you make a video clip or you can make measurements and share them with your peers in writing.

[partzman]

Tinman,

Some measurements that would be helpful IMO at this point is taking inductance measurements of each coil separately, inductance measurements of each coil pair in series aiding (pri1+pri2, pri1+sec, pri2+sec), and inductance measurements of each coil pair bucking (pri1-pri2, pri1-sec, pri2-sec).

This would allow the calcs to be done for mutual couplings, K factors, leakage inductances, and inductance with coils shorted.

Additional useful measurements would include inter-winding capacitance and since your cores are conductive, windings to core capacitance.

Do you also have any idea or taken any measurement on the approximate Bsat of your cast cores?

Not trying to overload you with work but if I had your core(s) in hand or a replication, these are the first tests I would perform.

partzman

[MileHigh]

Tinman,

Some measurements that would be helpful IMO at this point is taking inductance measurements of each coil separately, inductance measurements of each coil pair in series aiding (pri1+pri2, pri1+sec, pri2+sec), and inductance measurements of each coil pair bucking (pri1-pri2, pri1-sec, pri2-sec).

This would allow the calcs to be done for mutual couplings, K factors, leakage inductances, and inductance with coils shorted.

Additional useful measurements would include inter-winding capacitance and since your cores are conductive, windings to core capacitance.

Do you also have any idea or taken any measurement on the approximate Bsat of your cast cores?

Not trying to overload you with work but if I had your core(s) in hand or a replication, these are the first tests I would perform.

partzman

I understand that you are trying to help but this kind of research can be done at a much more basic level, and some of the measurements you are suggesting are extraneous and it's doubtful that they will have any value.  The start and finish of each winding and the winding directions are almost irrelevant.  The inductance measurements are incidental, and the series inductance measurements both bucking and adding don't have any relevance to this experiment.  The inter-winding capacitance is also not relevant because for starters we are not really concerned with how this device acts at very high frequencies.

In general, there is no point in making measurements if you can't do anything with that data or apply it in some way to advance the investigations you are doing in your experiment.

The experiment is about determining the nature of the electric field inside and on the surface of a toroidal transformer.  At first glance the basic measurements look unusual, so the first step is to explain why they look unusual.  Right now it looks like simply embedding a secondary coil inside the core of a toroidal transformer did not conform to the "expected" results.  The expectation was that the voltage on the inner primary would be lower than the voltage on the outer primary but the opposite was measured.  So the question is why was that measured.

The inner secondary coil is in a non-standard configuration, and there are implications associated with that non-standard configuration that have most likely not been considered.   In a regular secondary coil in a regular toroidal transformer, all of the flux activity and interaction happens inside the core and almost nothing happens outside the core.

In Tinman's setup, the inner secondary coil has "two competing cores" the blue core and the red core.   Both the blue and red cores can act as conduits for 100% of the flux generated by the inner secondary coil.  So, the question is, which of the two cores provides the path of least reluctance under various loading conditions?  Note also that the blue and red cores are magnetically isolated by an air gap.  That raises the questions, "What about an experiment were there is no magnetic isolation between the blue and red cores?  Would the results be completely different with that configuration?"  It can get complicated.

When you look at the primary, you can say the same thing for the blue and the red cores.   For example, let's just look at the primary and completely forget about both secondaries.   When the primary is energized with DC under these conditions, it looks like all of the flux would be perfectly happy to flow through the red core and none of the flux will flow through the blue core.  There is a high reluctance gap between the red core and the blue core and therefore almost no flux will flow though the blue core.  But then if you energize the primary with AC, then it looks like at first glance that the red core will take all of the AC flux generated by primary coil and the blue core will have an opposite AC flux flow going through it because of Lenz's law.  I am doing this in my head, but I can't tell you exactly what will take place.  The only way to know is to do an investigation on the bench.

Note that Tinman is using the same number of turns for each secondary which is helpful because at least that is one set of variables that is fixed and unchanging and understood.

So the real exercise here is to try and figure out where precisely the flux is flowing for different test conditions.   You can play with load resistor values for the two secondaries and make voltage and power measurements.  It's very tricky to figure out what is taking place in each of the two cores, but with some measurements and applying your knowledge you should be able to figure out what is going on.  That is the real exercise here, most of the measurements you are suggesting are window dressing that can't be used in any practical manner.

What I am seeing without doing the experiment is that the basic premise of the experiment is false and unworkable.  The assumption was that by making an inner secondary you would be able to make electric field measurements and compare the voltage on the inner secondary and the outer secondary.   What you really have is a strange toroidal transformer with two essentially independent coaxial toroidal cores, one enveloping the other, that are competing for flux with different loading arrangements depending on the values of the two load resistors.   So to me at least, the experiment has changed into the challenge of explaining precisely why we see the voltages and power flows that we see for this non-standard configuration.  Where and why is the flux flowing and where and why are we seeing given power flows for a given load resistor configuration.

One think for sure, is that nothing non-standard is happening.  This is just another version of a motor speeding up under load where you are "sure" that the motor is "supposed" to slow down under load.  You are falling victim to your own preconceptions without doing the full investigation.  When you actually do the full investigation your measurements and analysis show you that indeed, the motor was supposed to speed up under load.

[tinman]

This is an example of the same old issue that I have with you.  You are not even bothering to specify what the inner secondary load is.  Are you talking about a 0.01 ohm load, a 120 ohm load, or a 100 Kohm load?  Likewise you are not even bothering to specify if the secondary is loaded or unloaded, and if it is loaded you are not bothering to specify what the load is.  Also, you are not even addressing the issue that I raised of the flux cancellation in the red zone.

I fully agree that things may be more complicated.  If you were going to do this experiment properly you would also measure the primary power in and the power outs for the inner and outer secondaries.

This is all up to you.  You can put as little or as much effort into the experiment as you choose and you can document it verbally "on the fly" as you make a video clip or you can make measurements and share them with your peers in writing.

Is there a time limit on all these measurement request MH ?
Some of us do have day jobs you know