Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy

[Smudge]

Maybe you have missed something here Smudge-read on.


The  inner secondary is always twice that of the primary voltage-->even at 20 HTz.
It remains twice that of the primary until around 200KHz-where it starts to rise even higher. This maybe when the effect you are speaking of starts to take place?. Remember,these are open voltage numbers,so no current is flowing through the inner secondary. Also remember that when the inner secondary is used as the primary,and dose have a current flowing through it,the opposite is seen at the outer secondary,where the voltage amplitude is 1/2 that of the now inner primary. How would this effect you speak of account for that,when the small capacitance would have no effect on the driven inner primary?.

What would be good to see is if you can replicate this effect using a standard transformer with the right valued cap as you stated. Are you able to get the secondaries voltage to rise in some sort of tank circuit,but have the primaries voltage remain the same?.

OK, having looked at your latest sweep results I have to agree with you, they don't fully support that theory.  However it now seems to me that you are on to something that has not been considered here, and that is a form of magnetic propagation (or time delay if you like) which is not the classical magnetic viscosity associated with domain wall movement.  What I am referring to is capacitive effects that turn the magnetic core into a form of transmission line.  I did some experiments years ago with a ring core where the primary was a small winding on on side of the core and the secondary was a similar small winding on the opposite side of the core.  On the bare core sections between primary and secondary were wound a sequence of coils each shunted by a capacitor.  These had the effect of slowing down the magnetic propagation from primary to secondary, I had made a magnetic delay-line transformer.  At a frequency where the delay was 180 degrees the secondary voltage was 180 degrees out of phase with the primary.  But it still worked as a transformer (albeit with reduced efficiency).  Chava financed more extensive work on a magnetic delay transformer which was not taken to a conclusion.

It strikes me that your secondary being buried inside the core and having considerable distributed capacitance could very well have a delay-line characteristic and maybe this explains your anomalous results.  You could be pumping magnetic energy circulating around the inner core that has this induced low propagation velocity, hence forms its own magnetic resonance.

What is interesting about magnetic delay along a core is the possibility of OU operation.  I have studied this from classical transmission-line theory where the characteristic impedance of such a line is actually imaginary in the mathematical sense (see attached paper).  IOW the ratio of voltage to current is a known value but they are 90 degrees out of phase.  And it can be shown that such a delay line terminated in a capacitor will exhibit negative resistance at its input, and negative resistance is just another name for a power source.  That a combination of passive components can create negative resistance is not accepted in scientific circles, but the math says otherwise.  So I would advise that you continue with your work notwithstanding the flack you are getting from this forum.

Smudge

P.S.  Also see another viewpoint for capacitive loading of a magnetic delay transformer which should apply even if the delay along the core is induced from external effects and not from domain wall movement.

[Vortex1]

Smudge :

Can you design an experiment that would optimize the possible OU conditions in a transformer with transmission line parameters. Even if the input and output are somewhat out of phase, we can correct for that with a network and loop the transformer. IMHO, looped self oscillation is the "proof of the pudding" test for a transformer with a proposed power gain, and is easy for an AC device. This also quiets the measurement arguments.

I have offered some test circuits, however the actual optimized physical device build information is needed.

Regards, Vortex1

[gotoluc]

OK, having looked at your latest sweep results I have to agree with you, they don't fully support that theory.  However it now seems to me that you are on to something that has not been considered here, and that is a form of magnetic propagation (or time delay if you like) which is not the classical magnetic viscosity associated with domain wall movement.  What I am referring to is capacitive effects that turn the magnetic core into a form of transmission line.  I did some experiments years ago with a ring core where the primary was a small winding on on side of the core and the secondary was a similar small winding on the opposite side of the core.  On the bare core sections between primary and secondary were wound a sequence of coils each shunted by a capacitor.  These had the effect of slowing down the magnetic propagation from primary to secondary, I had made a magnetic delay-line transformer.  At a frequency where the delay was 180 degrees the secondary voltage was 180 degrees out of phase with the primary.  But it still worked as a transformer (albeit with reduced efficiency).  Chava financed more extensive work on a magnetic delay transformer which was not taken to a conclusion.

It strikes me that your secondary being buried inside the core and having considerable distributed capacitance could very well have a delay-line characteristic and maybe this explains your anomalous results.  You could be pumping magnetic energy circulating around the inner core that has this induced low propagation velocity, hence forms its own magnetic resonance.

What is interesting about magnetic delay along a core is the possibility of OU operation.  I have studied this from classical transmission-line theory where the characteristic impedance of such a line is actually imaginary in the mathematical sense (see attached paper).  IOW the ratio of voltage to current is a known value but they are 90 degrees out of phase.  And it can be shown that such a delay line terminated in a capacitor will exhibit negative resistance at its input, and negative resistance is just another name for a power source.  That a combination of passive components can create negative resistance is not accepted in scientific circles, but the math says otherwise.  So I would advise that you continue with your work notwithstanding the flack you are getting from this forum.

Smudge

P.S.  Also see another viewpoint for capacitive loading of a magnetic delay transformer which should apply even if the delay along the core is induced from external effects and not from domain wall movement.

Excellent post Smudge!

Thanks for sharing this information

Luc

[MileHigh]

Happy now guys?

The real question you all should ask yourself is:  "Did you expect anything different?"

It's not that simple Dog-One.  Brad was asked to do a better frequency sweep test and he got frustrated and angry and left.  He proposed to analyze his device with "his own personal version" of how magnetic fields work and that will not work.  He believed that his device, which was made for another purpose, was now doing something special and "not in the books" and that is not true.

The fun was supposed to be in actually figuring out how the device works.  You do various tests and try to interpret the results, then you do more tests and eventually you figure it out.  Instead, Brad seemingly wanted to short-circuit that process and invent his own explanation and go on to invent his own solution.  It doesn't work like that and it's wrong.

People like Poynt99 and others have spent years teaching people like Brad about real electronics and then Brad comes along with this device and basically throws all of that teaching out the window.  I can read between the lines in what Picowatt says and it's obvious that he has a wealth of knowledge and experience beyond the capacity of the average experimenter around here to even conceptualize.

So we end up with another interesting device and no real understanding of how it works.  It could have been an interesting academic exercise.  The device he built would never outperform a conventional transformer.  It's just a curiosity and something to investigate purely for the challenge of doing it, and the fallout is that everyone that follows the thread gets to learn in the process.  There is no reason that Brad could not have figured out precisely how the device worked and why it produced a high open-circuit voltage on the secondary.  Especially with highly skilled and knowledgeable people like Poynt99, Picowatt, and Vortex1 involved.

So the answer to your question is YES, we would have expected something different.  If you are going to take the message that you are trying to send, then it means that everybody that has some kind of personal theory about how something works is to be encouraged all the time, even if they are wrong.  You are not allowed to question them and point out when they are wrong in their theories or in their actions.  If that's the case, then what's the forum for?  You have to be able to debate, that's what a forum is for.

Tale the example of the "COP 2000%" device that was presented at one of those alternative energy conferences, I think it was about two years ago.  It was discussed in what was most likely a highly restrictive debate on another forum.  Any dissenters were probably locked out of the thread or even booted off the forum if they challenged the "COP 2000%" claim after they were warned not to speak like that.

So where are the COP 2000% devices, it's nearly two years later?  The answer is that they don't exist, the claim is junk, and nobody was ever allowed to investigate the claim.

So, what do you want, free expression and debate, or a restrictive totalitarian stifling of free expression?

[partzman]

OK, having looked at your latest sweep results I have to agree with you, they don't fully support that theory.  However it now seems to me that you are on to something that has not been considered here, and that is a form of magnetic propagation (or time delay if you like) which is not the classical magnetic viscosity associated with domain wall movement.  What I am referring to is capacitive effects that turn the magnetic core into a form of transmission line.  I did some experiments years ago with a ring core where the primary was a small winding on on side of the core and the secondary was a similar small winding on the opposite side of the core.  On the bare core sections between primary and secondary were wound a sequence of coils each shunted by a capacitor.  These had the effect of slowing down the magnetic propagation from primary to secondary, I had made a magnetic delay-line transformer.  At a frequency where the delay was 180 degrees the secondary voltage was 180 degrees out of phase with the primary.  But it still worked as a transformer (albeit with reduced efficiency).  Chava financed more extensive work on a magnetic delay transformer which was not taken to a conclusion.

It strikes me that your secondary being buried inside the core and having considerable distributed capacitance could very well have a delay-line characteristic and maybe this explains your anomalous results.  You could be pumping magnetic energy circulating around the inner core that has this induced low propagation velocity, hence forms its own magnetic resonance.

What is interesting about magnetic delay along a core is the possibility of OU operation.  I have studied this from classical transmission-line theory where the characteristic impedance of such a line is actually imaginary in the mathematical sense (see attached paper).  IOW the ratio of voltage to current is a known value but they are 90 degrees out of phase.  And it can be shown that such a delay line terminated in a capacitor will exhibit negative resistance at its input, and negative resistance is just another name for a power source.  That a combination of passive components can create negative resistance is not accepted in scientific circles, but the math says otherwise.  So I would advise that you continue with your work notwithstanding the flack you are getting from this forum.

Smudge

P.S.  Also see another viewpoint for capacitive loading of a magnetic delay transformer which should apply even if the delay along the core is induced from external effects and not from domain wall movement.

Smudge,

Early on I had requested that TM take a capacitance measurement between the inner secondary and the outer core but I don't recall if he did that.

TM if you are watching this, would you take this measurement and report your findings please. I would also encourage you to continue with this project on this forum as it does exhibit unique characteristics. You deserve credit for your device and I fear that someone lurking this thread without the best intentions could hijack your discovery.

Regarding the idea that properly utilized passive components could create negative resistance, I truly believe this is possible.

partzman