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Overunity Machines Forum



Open Systems

Started by allcanadian, January 25, 2015, 09:23:46 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 13 Guests are viewing this topic.

MarkE

Quote from: tinman on February 06, 2015, 05:38:03 AM
An electrolisis cell is a resistance heater-->and we get gas as well ;)
Sure, and the energy out all comes from the battery just as the energy out from the resistance heater does.  So in each case energy has been delivered to gas inthe pressure vessel.  In the case of the electrolysis, in order to get the pressure up in the cell you need to liberate the energy used to break the chemical bonds.  Assuming you have really good insulation, the results would be essentially the same.

Pirate88179

Mark:

So, 1 for 1 then?  Or possibly a little less than one out so maybe 98%?

Bill
See the Joule thief Circuit Diagrams, etc. topic here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.0;topicseen

MarkE

Quote from: Pirate88179 on February 06, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Mark:

So, 1 for 1 then?  Or possibly a little less than one out so maybe 98%?

Bill
Ultimately we will have to see what kind of experiment Tinman has in mind.

tinman

Quote from: MarkE on February 07, 2015, 12:26:47 AM
Ultimately we will have to see what kind of experiment Tinman has in mind.
Im leaving on vacation tomorrow,as it's been 20 years in the making.
But i leave you with some thoughts to be given when we go to do our test Mark.
the primary storage tank wont be that hard,but the ram is where math skills will be needed-and good ones at that.

If you look at the diagram on page one,you will see what and how the ram is set up. You will note that it has a compression spring in it. This changes everything that happens when the cylinder is opperating.
The pressure will continue to rise over the period of the stroke due to the springs required compression force continually rising to compress it. The volume will also be continually rising,and also the gas mass will be continually rising.
As the pressure is continually rising,then so will the teperature continually rise. as the temperature is continually rising,the gas will be expanding along with the rise in temperature. This will reduce the required flow from the main tank. The temperature will end up being higher than that of the gas being delivered to the ram via the tank due to the increasing pressure rise within the cylinder-even though the end pressure in the cylinder will be lower than that of the main tank pressure.
This is your adiabatic process at work Mark.

So you see,the spring is actually going to raise the energy stored within the pneumatic cylinder-not decrease it,and any other load placed on the cylinder increases the rate of the pressure and temperature increase-->the end temperature will be higher with the spring and load on the cylinder than if there were no load at all.

So in summary.
The volume is continually increasing.
The pressure is continually increasing.
The temperature is continually increasing.
The gas mass is continually increasing.
The springs force is continually increasing.
= an increase in energy stored within the cylinder to that supplied by the main tank.

The main tank/storage tank.

The volume remains constant.
The pressure will drop,but will not be linear to that of the cylinder/ram.
The temperature will drop,but will not be linear to that of the cylinder/ram.
The gas mass will be reduced,and will be linear to that of the cylinders mass increase-->we cannot create mass.

These are the things that must be taken into account when on paper testing is carried out.
We are also going to limit the pressure to the cylinder/ram to 100 psi. We will be using psi gage pressure for simplicity.

MarkE

Quote from: tinman on February 07, 2015, 09:01:25 AM
Im leaving on vacation tomorrow,as it's been 20 years in the making.
But i leave you with some thoughts to be given when we go to do our test Mark.
the primary storage tank wont be that hard,but the ram is where math skills will be needed-and good ones at that.

If you look at the diagram on page one,you will see what and how the ram is set up. You will note that it has a compression spring in it. This changes everything that happens when the cylinder is opperating.
The pressure will continue to rise over the period of the stroke due to the springs required compression force continually rising to compress it. The volume will also be continually rising,and also the gas mass will be continually rising.
As the pressure is continually rising,then so will the teperature continually rise. as the temperature is continually rising,the gas will be expanding along with the rise in temperature.
When the A valve is first opened the gas expands against the spring.  If the dimensions are established that equilibrium condition is not difficult to resolve.  If the valve is left open thent he cylinder continues to compress the spring at which point:  P, V, and T all increase.
QuoteThis will reduce the required flow from the main tank. The temperature will end up being higher than that of the gas being delivered to the ram via the tank due to the increasing pressure rise within the cylinder-even though the end pressure in the cylinder will be lower than that of the main tank pressure.
This is your adiabatic process at work Mark.
The process is not adiabatic. Once you provide dimensions, then we can do the math.
Quote

So you see,the spring is actually going to raise the energy stored within the pneumatic cylinder-not decrease it,and any other load placed on the cylinder increases the rate of the pressure and temperature increase-->the end temperature will be higher with the spring and load on the cylinder than if there were no load at all.
No, the spring stores energy transferred from the gas.
Quote

So in summary.
The volume is continually increasing.
Only after the A valve is opened.
Quote
The pressure is continually increasing.
Only after the equilibriation that occurs after the A valve is opened and the cylinder reaches a stable position.  Between the time that the A valve is opened and equilibrium is reached, P, and PV, and T all decrease.
Quote
The temperature is continually increasing.
No, same thing as the pressure:  An initial decrease occurs when A valve is opened until equilibrium is reached.  Then the temperature begins rising again.
Quote
The gas mass is continually increasing.
Yes, we keep converting liquid to gas through the whole electrolysis phase.
Quote
The springs force is continually increasing.
Once the A valve is opened the spring gets compressed more and more until the electrolysis ends.
Quote
= an increase in energy stored within the cylinder to that supplied by the main tank.
That's right, we transfer energy from the main tank to the cylinder from the time the A valve opens until we stop the electrolysis.
Quote

The main tank/storage tank.

The volume remains constant.
Absolutely not.  It increases until we open valve A, then it drops until equilibrium is reached and then it starts increasing again.
Quote
The pressure will drop,but will not be linear to that of the cylinder/ram.
The pressure will drop until the pressure supplied by the newly compressed (more compressed) spring against the piston reaches equilibrium with the pressure in the vessel + expanded cylinder.  Energy transferred to the spring drops nRT and consequently P*V.
Quote
The temperature will drop,but will not be linear to that of the cylinder/ram.
The temperature conforms to the internal energy of the gas.
Quote
The gas mass will be reduced,and will be linear to that of the cylinders mass increase-->we cannot create mass.
Unless gas escapes, the total mass of gas only goes up as the electrolysis proceeds.  We can't create mass, but we can generate gas from liquid.
Quote

These are the things that must be taken into account when on paper testing is carried out.
The paper model better be faithful to real physics or it won't be very useful.
Quote
We are also going to limit the pressure to the cylinder/ram to 100 psi. We will be using psi gage pressure for simplicity.
How do you intend to limit the pressure?