Open Systems

[LibreEnergia]

The cop with this system is 1. This i have been through with Mark-energy is conserved-->are you going to argue with that?.

If the COP is 1 then an electrical resistance heater would be a much simpler device to achieve the same result.

[tinman]

We shall see soon enough.

Quote

    Wow Mark,you have just invented an OU device. We now have more stored force than we started with. How did you do that when it was clearly stated that it was a frictionless device.

The good news is that you intend to experiment.  The bad news is that at least for the time being you remain at odds with the very basics of thermodynamics for which there are thousands of good tutorials available to you for free on the www.
You have to understand that i dont see all post when im working 17 hours a day,they are easly missed when trying to keep up during work hours. I am interested as to how you managed to achieve a higher pressure after all the energy was returned on the return stroke of the piston.
I appreciate that you work very hard.
You mean you think i have made a series of incorrect statements based on your belief that the ideal gas laws can be applied to my system.
No, with all due respect:  We are talking about very basic, extraordinarily well proven principles.  While anyone can be mistaken, and any principle has a finite possibility of being wrong under some circumstance: the chances here are so close to nil that I make no distinction for the extremely good cause that there is no evidence of any kind that disputes these fundamentals which have been proven billions of times by every hot gas engine and heat pump built over the past 200 years.
Like telling some one who has a different belief than yourself that there full of shit?-Maybe that was just your way of telling me no.
The distinction that I draw is decrying ideas that cannot stand rather than the person.  If you feel personally offended by anything I have said then I apologize for that.
Respectfully !no!-no energy is lost to the outside world,as the unit as a whole is all enclosed in an insulated room.
Here we are back at the crux of the situation.  Is it fair to say that you believe that because at a given internal energy a particular quantity of gas has a P*V product that P or V can be changed to new values without usng or adding energy so long as the P*V product remains fixed?  If so that is called an adiabatic condition.  It is an extremely useful, but hypothetical condition.  If you understand that work is the integral of F*ds, or less rigorously:  force times distance, then you should understand that if we have gas in a cylinder, and if we change the volume of the cylinder, then we apply force along the axis of the cylinder and therefore either put work into the cylinder by compressing it, or take work out by allowing the cylinder to expand.  LE has used the bicycle pump example and I have used the aerosol can example.  I don't think that there is any debate that where P₁V₁ = P₂V₂ the internal energy is the same.  The debate is whether it is possible to change state from P₁V₁ without exchanging external energy.
No,that work comes from the force/pressure that already exist and is already accounted for within the system.
See above.
Not part of the process in my system,as the gas is already compressed.
Again, see above.
No,the gas and all the energy it contains remains within the internal system. You just dont see the opperation of the system as a whole because you believe that your ideal gas law applies to all the action within my system.
See above.
Once again,you assume that the ideal gas laws can be applied to my system-they cannot while the system is in opperation.
Your first problem is that if you want to claim an exception to general principles then you either need to make an argument for why that exception should exist, or demonstrate that it appears to exist.Indeed-on this we agree.Please remember you agree with this,as it will come into play soon enough.
That's not a problem for me.
No ,force is not energy,but gives rise to energy.
The vessel of choice in this system will be a cylinder type vessel.
Energy is the integral of F*ds.  We must have force and some portion of it must be applied through the direction of motion.

Mark.I hope you appreciate that we did not arrive at our current understanding of the physical world by proclamation.  Our understanding is based on countless experiments devised and executed by very bright people.  While there is always more to learn, and there is always the finite possibility that we will find an exception to basic principles, the odds against any kind of experiment that repeats conditions that have been tested millions of times finding something new are really, really, small.No, not really.  In order for the ideal gas law to be a good approximation the effects of things like Van Der Waal forces have to be small. nRT is going to give the internal energy of the gas.  Under any static conditions and volumes like you are talking about PV will be so close to nRT that we do not distinguish the two.A higher P*V product means more internal energy, IE higher nRT, than a lower P*V product.  R is a constant.  So if n is constant, then P*V changes with T and vice-versa.The internal energy is nRT.  The disagreement that you have with basic thermodynamics is the idea that you can change P or V without exhanging work that would change nRT and therefore the product of P*V.  You are free to try and find a way to enlarge V and still keep Elvis in the building.It's a simple calculator plug to take n and T and multiply by R.  If n is unknown, but P and V are known, it is also a simple calculator plug to get the energy.

Its not going to be as simple as you assume Mark, in fact this will be a test for you indeed-I hope your maths is up to scratch.

[tinman]

If the COP is 1 then an electrical resistance heater would be a much simpler device to achieve the same result.

Good one LE.
Now how would a resistance heater produce pressure of around 400psi-which is yet to come.

[MarkE]

Good one LE.
Now how would a resistance heater produce pressure of around 400psi-which is yet to come.

All it has to do is boil a liquid in a suitable pressure vessel.

[profitis]

Here's a graph of tinmans engine losses vs environmental donations.the environment will donate a  set number of kcal/mole heat for phase-changes whilst tinman must make sure his own losses don't exceed that set number in the cycle.