Open Systems

[MarkE]

No-the energy within the gas in the ballon drops when the outside pressure around the baloon drops, as the pressure of the gas within the baloon drops as the size of the vessel (baloon) increases.

So we are agreed that dropping the pressure outside the balloon causes the balloon to expand, and the gas within the balloon to exhange energy with the balloon membrane?

You are assuming that either the pressure or temperature within the cylinder drops as the piston is pushed out by the gas-it dose not. When the piston is pushed out by the gas, the temperature, pressure, volume and gas mass increases.

Whoa, the gas quantity (and therefore for particular gasses the gas mass) is changing slowly via the electrolysis.  But we can open the valve as fast as we want.  As soon as we do, the pressure in the cylinder before having been less than that of the gas in the pressure vessel, gas enters the cylinder, reducing pressure in the vessel, yes?

The heavier the force working against the pistons direction, the quicker the temperature and pressure will rise.

I tell you what:  Take an aerosol can, such as dust spray from the stationary store and let some of the gas out.  Does the can get hotter or colder in your hand?

The end result at the completion of the pistons travel against the aposing force is a higher temperature than that of the gas that was used to force the piston out in the first place.

Well according to classical thermodynamics, the gas that expands gets colder, that's the large volume of gas in the pressure vessel, while the gas in the cylinder gets hotter as it compresses.

This we see all the time on the air rams at the mine sites I have worked on. The air feeding the rams may be around the 25*C mark, while the air exiting the rams may be around 40*C. The heavier the load acting against the rams, the hotter the air leaving the rams.

Again: compressing gas does work on it, and it gets hotter, expanding gas gets colder.  The tanks feeding your rams cool down more and more the greater the volume of gas that is used per ram cycle.

There is no energy loss within my system when the gas is used to do outside work, as there is no temperature drop-but a temperature increase in the gas insted. This increase in temperature is an increase in energy-not a loss.

Well as LE said:  Woo hoo, that's free energy.  Except that it isn't.  All of the mechanical work comes at the cost of gas in the pressure vessel and cylinder.  The cylinder heats up at the start of the stroke when the compressed gas is admitted by opening the valve and before the piston starts moving.  As the piston moves, that gas expands and cools.  In the meantime the gas in the pressure vessel has also expanded and cooled and continues to do so throughout the cylinder stroke.

[tinman]

So we are agreed that dropping the pressure outside the balloon causes the balloon to expand, and the gas within the balloon to exhange energy with the balloon membrane?Whoa, the gas quantity (and therefore for particular gasses the gas mass) is changing slowly via the electrolysis.  But we can open the valve as fast as we want.  As soon as we do, the pressure in the cylinder before having been less than that of the gas in the pressure vessel, gas enters the cylinder, reducing pressure in the vessel, yes?I tell you what:  Take an aerosol can, such as dust spray from the stationary store and let some of the gas out.  Does the can get hotter or colder in your hand?Well according to classical thermodynamics, the gas that expands gets colder, that's the large volume of gas in the pressure vessel, while the gas in the cylinder gets hotter as it compresses.Again: compressing gas does work on it, and it gets hotter, expanding gas gets colder.  The tanks feeding your rams cool down more and more the greater the volume of gas that is used per ram cycle.Well as LE said:  Woo hoo, that's free energy.  Except that it isn't.  All of the mechanical work comes at the cost of gas in the pressure vessel and cylinder.  The cylinder heats up at the start of the stroke when the compressed gas is admitted by opening the valve and before the piston starts moving.  As the piston moves, that gas expands and cools.  In the meantime the gas in the pressure vessel has also expanded and cooled and continues to do so throughout the cylinder stroke.

Yes, the gas in the pressure vessel cool as the ram expands.
No-the gas in the ram dosnt cool as it expands as the mass of gas is increasing, along with pressure. The spring requires a progresive rise in pressure to compress the spring-this is regardless of any other external force acting upon the piston. So while there is a loss at the pressure vessel, there is an equal gain in the cylinder.
Once again-the temperature, pressure, volume and gas mass rises in the ram progressively.
If I take a 10 ltr tank, and fill that tank with air to a pressure of 50psi, I can make that ram perform external work without loosing any energy that is avaliable to do work within that stored tank of air-that tank of air can do the same work with or without the ram opperating.

[tinman]

Air ram and valves now ordered.

[MarkE]

Yes, the gas in the pressure vessel cool as the ram expands.
No-the gas in the ram dosnt cool as it expands as the mass of gas is increasing, along with pressure. The spring requires a progresive rise in pressure to compress the spring-this is regardless of any other external force acting upon the piston. So while there is a loss at the pressure vessel, there is an equal gain in the cylinder.
Once again-the temperature, pressure, volume and gas mass rises in the ram progressively.

Yes the ram heats and the pressure vessel cools, we agree on that.  Where we do not agree is the idea that you do not lose energy from the combined gas volumes between the time you open the cylinder valve, and the ram reaches its equilibrium extension which is basic thermodynamics.

If I take a 10 ltr tank, and fill that tank with air to a pressure of 50psi, I can make that ram perform external work without loosing any energy that is avaliable to do work within that stored tank of air-that tank of air can do the same work with or without the ram opperating.

I know you believe that despite the fact that it is dead wrong.  The best thing for you to do is conduct your experiments.

[tinman]

Yes the ram heats and the pressure vessel cools, we agree on that.  Where we do not agree is the idea that you do not lose energy from the combined gas volumes between the time you open the cylinder valve, and the ram reaches its equilibrium extension which is basic thermodynamics.

No-its not basic thermodynamics,it's basic physics. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction=what you loose in one,you gain in another. The other fact that supports this is-->you simply cannot loose(destroy)energy. Heat energy being disipated into the enviroment is not looseing energy,it is transfering energy. Well insulated pipes and tanks will see this transfer brought down to a minimum.

I know you believe that despite the fact that it is dead wrong.  .

No-it is not dead wrong. When the gas is used to apply a force to a resistance,the resistance applies the very same amount of force on the gas-->equal and opposites.
You also assume (incorrectly)that the gas cools as it leaves the pressure vessel-->it dose not. You asked why the outlet of a pressure vessel gets cold when the gas is flowing out through that outlet,well that is because the flowing gas is drawing out the stored heat within that outlet nozzel,and thus,the nozzel freezes. This can only mean that the gas leaving the pressure vessel is hotter than that stored within the pressure vessel,but misconseptions come in regards to the temperature of that gas,as it mixes with the ambiant air once it leaves the pressure vessel.

The best thing for you to do is conduct your experiments.

And what makes you think i havnt already ?.
Im simply upgrading all my equipment,so as a clear and precise result can be shown. Everything will be automated-->no hands will be used that could be considered to be contributing to the end result's.
Cost of this project will be around the $500.00 mark. I simply would not spend this type of money on something i hadnt already tried.