Minato Motor Modification

[mikestocks2006]

Mike
There is a fine line between attraction and repulsion when you use shielding. You say,"The magnets do repel but not as strong repulsion." but there must be some force which overcomes this repulsion to force the magnet to the point where the repulsion rotates the wheel. BTW, I think the Vaporwings design crowds too many magnets into a small space. I think your design is better. Now you must commit to construction and don't be fooled by animation.
Peter

Yes that's the general idea when talking about differential net repulsive forces, with and without shield. We need to break the symmetry even if the break is small.
Basically we want lower repulsion when the magnets are shielded and higher when they are not as the test I posted above demonstrates.

All the magnets on the two disks have the N poles out and the wheel rotations are synchronized (gears of equal Pitch Dia and number of teeth in the back)

I can?t tell if Vaporwings model has too many or too few magnets. But he has build a ?wheel? already and it would be easier to adapt minor modifications to it rather than build the whole thing from scratch, as a starting test at least. As the old saying goes, why try to reinvent the wheel, focus on improving it.

I fully agree with all the posters about modeling theory and reality. Modeling on paper greatly assists the visualization process and helps debugging most of major issues. But the proof relies on actual physical working models. Theory is great to get to the ballpark but not always agrees with practice/reality. I recall way back when using FEA on SunSpark2 and the results, graphics and numbers for certain models looked ?great? but it was just about impossible to physically manufacture, mass produce the parts even with state of the art technology.

A side point on modeling.
Another issue about mathematical modeling when it is used for research close to the fringes of our knowledge base:
Modeling of any type is in essence a set of mathematical formulas using user input and providing some output. The premise is, these formulas are true and based on physics laws as we presently know them. History however, has shown repeatedly that many times we had to revise the laws in order to fit new discoveries observations and understandings. By default then, any present mathematical model may not be the best way to predict a new discovery.

Back to the project at hand, precision construction and friction minimization are also key factors
Construction at this very moment is much easier said than done, but viable.

I'm also exploring the idea of using ring magnets so gears and synchronization is not an issue. It may make the construction easier, build and test. Instead of discreet impulses it ?should? be a continuous smooth rotation if it works.
Let?s say, ring magnets with the N pole on the outside wall and S pole on the inside. !

Thanks


Thanks

[Dingus Mungus]

I just don't believe a 2D simulator can properly demonstrate a 3D problem.

It will simulate the opposing wheel concept with a third dimension accurately, the only thing it can not simulate overlapping objects. Since there are no overlapping parts and all components share a common depth, it should be a very accurate way to find the best angles and magnet ratios to produce the torque needed for self start. You can go in blind on assumptions, but simulations can be quite useful in flushing out ideas like this.

But if a true third dimension is necessary you can work in Solidworks. I dont have a way to give you a free copy though. Its kinda expensive and super hard to teach ones self, but well worth the price for engineers who need proof of concept before dumping thousands in to a prototype.

If it works in the simulator, there's no guarantee it will work in the real world no matter how accurate the math is.

Ummmm... yeah it does.... o_O
It can simulate all AC/DC motors, it'll even simulate static charge simulations like the testatica ML. If you would just download it, install it, read the tutorials, and work with the samples, you will find out it can easily and acurately calculate: angles of force, torque around a point, transformer outputs, induction, back EMF, and so much more...

All I'm trying to do is help out other members the best I can, and I really do believe this software could be useful to anyone experimenting in this field.

[tropes]

I reconstructed one of my old designs which didn't act as I hoped but might work better with shielding (weekend project). I uploaded video and photos to http://theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html . My early attempts with 2 shielded rotors didn't work well but ther is much to be learned by failure.
Peter

[mikestocks2006]

Dingus Mungus
?All I'm trying to do is help out other members the best I can, and I really do believe this software could be useful to anyone experimenting in this field?

Agreed, modeling software definitely has a very helpful place in the development process, as it helps focusing thoughts and visualizing the designs.


tropes
?My early attempts with 2 shielded rotors didn't work well but ther is much to be learned by failure.?

..as the ole saying goes, the greatest inventors have failed their way to success. Yep many if not all had to find all the ways that it doesn?t work first before the one that works became apparent.

We can only keep on trying...

[tropes]

I added a strip of Mumetal shielding between the rotor and the stators but it doesn't seem to make a difference. I uploaded a photo to  http://theowlnest.com/kickbypage.html . I would like to hear from anyone who has tried to design a magnetic engine using the attraction force of magnets.
Peter