MH's ideal coil and voltage question

[verpies]

So if I take a superconducting coil, closed that is, and excite it with a voltage and wait for the current to ramp up

It would be impossible to apply a potential difference (voltage) to a closed superconducting coil, since there would be no place to insert a voltage source.
However it would be easy to insert a voltage source in series with an open superconducting coil.

Also, varying the flux that penetrates such closed coil would induce a current in it, but you still would not be able to measure any voltage because there would not be any place you could insert a voltmeter into.

and then open the coil through a low resistance device,,,

Any resistance would dissipate the current and energy stored in the coil through simple I²R losses sooner or later.

Is that not free electricity since voltage is free?

Why would it be?

[MileHigh]

author=MileHigh link=topic=16589.msg485082#msg485082 date=1464097150]

MileHigh


Ah,so you must have taught me well MH. I am following your lead,where one makes bold rejections against those who know better--like !there is no resonance or resonant systems what so ever in or around an ICE. The proof had to be given to you,as you were completely and utterly lost.
If the shoe fit's MH

As you are avoiding mine
But the truth is MH,worst case scenario,i could spend 20 minutes on the net,and find the answers you require,where as you could not build a simple pulse motor or JT,because your attitude will not allow it.

Oh please MH-->you were the very first to comment on the thread.
You were itching for this to happen.Taking into account the difference in times around the world,it only took you 2 hours,18 minutes to make your first comment--the first reply on the thread.

Sure,right after you take me up on my challenge.
Ever notice that it is always everyone else that answers the questions,while you avoid everything.
All those here have to do everything for you. Others have to build and test,others have to put up sim scope shot's,others have to do all the research,while you do nothing but talk.

Oh,so now we have an ideal voltage source being fed from an ideal voltage source.
Imagine that connection,and ideal voltage source hooked across an ideal capacitor--that has no internal series resistance
Would this ideal capacitor,being an ideal voltage source,store the energy that is provided by the ideal voltage source that has no stored energy?
Maybe it just disappears MH? lol.

Maybe it is time for you to answer a question

Anyone that plays with electronics will know there is no such thing as an ideal voltage source,or an ideal capacitor.

If you can build an actual device,say a pulse motor,or JT,that is more efficient at converting electrical energy into wanted energies than what i can,then you will know that your !!vast!! knowledge in electronics has some bases behind it. If not,then your word's of wisdom are just that--word's.


Brad

No, I was not lost about an ICE, I was ignorant.  You, on the other hand, where completely and utterly lost at the beginning of this thread about a power supply connected to one single component.  And where you are right now is less lost, but still lost enough to shy away from my challenge to you to describe how this extremely simple circuit works in your own words.  You tried to deflect away from the challenge.  You are going to have to keep on researching and studying to get to the point were you can write out five paragraphs that present a coherent and sensible and correct explanation for how the circuit works.  You are a long way away from being able to do that at this point in time.

But the truth is MH,worst case scenario,i could spend 20 minutes on the net,and find the answers you require

Good, you are admitting that you don't know what you are doing and have a lot to learn.  With respect to a 20-minute Google search solving all of your problems, we have ample evidence that this is not the case.  You are BSing.  And running off and doing a bunch of copying and pasting will not cut it either.

And no, I did not want to get into this discussion.  You badgered me for the question multiple times so I made up a new version of the question on the spot and you took that question and started this thread.  And we now know the results: the stark realization that you have to put in a serious effort to finally understand how inductors work after playing with them for so many years and bluffing.

Imagine that connection,and ideal voltage source hooked across an ideal capacitor--that has no internal series resistance
Would this ideal capacitor,being an ideal voltage source,store the energy that is provided by the ideal voltage source that has no stored energy?
Maybe it just disappears MH? lol.

That's pure nonsensical sarcasm.  If you are serious about electronics then you will go through the exercise of answering all four versions of the question.  This is for your own benefit.

Anyone that plays with electronics will know there is no such thing as an ideal voltage source,or an ideal capacitor.

After all of the work done on this thread in a desperate attempt to get you up to speed on basic electronics, that's an idiotic counterproductive statement.

If you can build an actual device,say a pulse motor,or JT,that is more efficient at converting electrical energy into wanted energies than what i can,then you will know that your !!vast!! knowledge in electronics has some bases behind it. If not,then your word's of wisdom are just that--word's.

Right now, my words are way more powerful than any device you can build on your bench.  Your goal is to get up to speed in electronics so you start to know what you are really doing on a more deeper and more serious level.  For example, you could build an MHOP pulse motor and have precise control of the pulse width and angular timing.  You could measure how much of a time constant you are energizing the coil for.  You could set the pulse width to your own discretion.  You could position the energizing pulse at the sweet spot of the magnetic repulsion if you wanted to maximize your RPM.

There is no "calling of my bluff" because I never made any kind of claim about building a pulse motor.  When you say something Brad, it actually has to make logical sense, you can't just pluck things out of thin air.  You seriously have to work on that very serious problem.

You, on the other hand, are claiming that you understand this very simple circuit when in fact it was readily apparent that you were completely lost at the beginning of the thread.  Now you are less lost.  Hence I called your bluff and challenged you to explain how the circuit works without using any formulas and you caved in right away and tried to use distraction to take the attention away from you.  What you want to do is get yourself up the learning curve to the point where you can describe how the circuit operates and it all flows naturally and you use proper electronics terms and concepts.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

Ah,so you are here only to debunk peoples devices,while im here to find unknown ,untapped energy sources.

The brain fry is actually on you MH,as some here call it OU,while i call it an unknown energy supply-->which of the two would be correct using your very own book's?
I bet you wont answer that one,as that would make your attempt to !once again! belittle me,look very foolish-->much like you saying that using a J/FET in a low voltage JT makes no sense


Brad

That's pretty pathetic or should I say impressive Joe.  Oh, so it's not "over unity," it's an "unknown energy supply."

So that fixes everything.  You did not make yourself look like a complete fool by knocking me about over unity when just a few weeks ago you made a posting definitively stating that over unity dose not exist.

You are so impressive, you have all the angles covered.  Say it ain't so, Joe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo_u4pMAlx0

[tinman]

That's pretty pathetic or should I say impressive Joe.  Oh, so it's not "over unity," it's an "unknown energy supply."

So that fixes everything.  You did not make yourself look like a complete fool by knocking me about over unity when just a few weeks ago you made a posting definitively stating that over unity dose not exist.

You are so impressive, you have all the angles covered.  Say it ain't so, Joe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo_u4pMAlx0

OK,i will try and give the baby explanation here,so as you understand MH.
Overunity is an incorrect term,and there is no such thing as OU.
What there is,is unknown sources of energy yet to be tapped.
So what some may see as being overunity,is nothing more than !a yet to be understood! energy source.
So the word !overunity! ,means nothing more than the word used until the energy source is understood.
So no,i do not believe in overunity,but i do believe in yet to be discovered energy sources.

Is that clear for you now?
Perhaps this unknown energy source,is that which contains all that energy of yours, that just disappears from your ideal voltage source?


Brad

[tinman]

 author=MileHigh link=topic=16589.msg485125#msg485125 date=1464141509]
   
 





MileHigh

No, I was not lost about an ICE, I was ignorant.

Well thats handy . Who'da ever thought

You, on the other hand, where completely and utterly lost at the beginning of this thread about a power supply connected to one single component.

Are we talking about that power supply that contains no energy,and makes energy disappear?.
I thought it was an ideal voltage source that contained no energy,but now it is a power supply
How can you have a power supply that contains no energy?.

And where you are right now is less lost, but still lost enough to shy away from my challenge to you to describe how this extremely simple circuit works in your own words.

Im up for the challenge MH,but first you take me up on mine to you.
So you building a JT or a pulse motor?

You tried to deflect away from the challenge.  You are going to have to keep on researching and studying to get to the point were you can write out five paragraphs that present a coherent and sensible and correct explanation for how the circuit works.  You are a long way away from being able to do that at this point in time.

First we need to find out if all this study of yours is worth it.
As i presented my challenge to you first,it's only fair that we complete that one first.
We need to know if all your !!study!! is worth it,and you can put it all to work,and beat a bench hack at building a JT or pulse motor.

Good, you are admitting that you don't know what you are doing and have a lot to learn.

I am admitting no such thing.
As i said,take me up on my challenge,and we will see who can put there skills into making the most efficient device. Word's are just word's MH,but an actual device--now there is where the science is at--hands on building.

With respect to a 20-minute Google search solving all of your problems,we have ample evidence that this is not the case.  You are BSing.  And running off and doing a bunch of copying and pasting will not cut it either.

Ah,that brings back memories MH. I remember well when you told us all that you spent 20 minutes on google,and have the definitive answer to a wine glass resonating
That did not work out well for you,as you seem to be the only one in the world that has a self resonating wine glass

And no, I did not want to get into this discussion.  You badgered me for the question multiple times so I made up a new version of the question on the spot and you took that question and started this thread.

I made one post--the first post in this thread,before you had to throw your two bob's worth in.
Please go to that post,and show me where there was any badgering toward you.

And we now know the results: the stark realization that you have to put in a serious effort to finally understand how inductors work after playing with them for so many years and bluffing.

Says the man that is to chicken shit to take up my challenge.
To scared to find out who can make better use of an inductor--who can make a more efficient JT or pulse motor.
Maybe you pick the electrical device to be made MH,,maybe a boost converter,or a 12vDC to 240AC inverter--maybe a 20 amp 24 volt PWM/speed controller?. Im up for anything you got
You say i have no idea as to how things work--you say i am at a basic level when it come's to electronics-->well lets put it to the test MH,lets see who can deliver the good's
MileHigh V Tinman-->the books V the bench

That's pure nonsensical sarcasm.  If you are serious about electronics then you will go through the exercise of answering all four versions of the question.  This is for your own benefit.

First up MH,i am not serious about electronics--where did you ever come up with that?
It is nothing more than a hobby--thats it--nothing more.
If you are serious about how good you are,and you have learned so much from your book's,then take up my challenge ,and prove that all that learning from the books, actually pays off--you can actually put it to some sort of real world use.

After all of the work done on this thread in a desperate attempt to get you up to speed on basic electronics, that's an idiotic counterproductive statement.

No it's not MH,it's the truth,unless you have an ideal voltage source,or an ideal capacitor?
If we placed an ideal voltage source across an ideal capacitor,do you think something would go bang?.

Right now, my words are way more powerful than any device you can build on your bench.

Oh yes MH,your words are going to solve the worlds energy crisis lol.
Words are just words MH--nothing more. All that claimed knowledge,and you cant do a thing with it.
I am happy with what i do MH--i love to build.

Your goal is to get up to speed in electronics so you start to know what you are really doing on a more deeper and more serious level.

As i said,show us all where your !deeper! level of understaning and learnings have got you. Take me up on my challenge

For example, you could build an MHOP pulse motor and have precise control of the pulse width and angular timing.

I can already do that MH,and more. What about a governing system,where more power is supplied to maintain a set RPM when mechanical energy is drawn from the pulse motor.
How about one that has a generator,where the pulse motor will draw less power when a load is placed on the generator?.
How about a pulse motor where you can pulse the coil at any time,and the motor will run just fine,and there is no such thing as pulse timing at all?
As i said,you under estimate my skills MH.

You could measure how much of a time constant you are energizing the coil for.  You could set the pulse width to your own discretion.  You could position the energizing pulse at the sweet spot of the magnetic repulsion if you wanted to maximize your RPM.

As i said,i can do all that now.

There is no "calling of my bluff" because I never made any kind of claim about building a pulse motor.  When you say something Brad, it actually has to make logical sense, you can't just pluck things out of thin air.  You seriously have to work on that very serious problem.

What good are words and skills MH,if you cannot put them to use?.

You, on the other hand, are claiming that you understand this very simple circuit when in fact it was readily apparent that you were completely lost at the beginning of the thread.  Now you are less lost.

As i said MH,anything i need to know--when i need to know it,can be found on the web. Is this not what you preach?,is this not how we learn?. The web is just one giant book MH,that has most of what we need to know in it. But when it comes to real world devices MH,then things dont always add up as the books say they should.

Hence I called your bluff and challenged you to explain how the circuit works without using any formulas and you caved in right away and tried to use distraction to take the attention away from you.

No i did not MH. I placed my challenge upon you,and then you gave me another.
So,to keep things fair MH,i think it is your turn to take up a challenge for a change,instead of just dishing them out all the time.

What you want to do is get yourself up the learning curve to the point where you can describe how the circuit operates and it all flows naturally and you use proper electronics terms and concepts.

First,we find out if all this knowledge you insist i have,is worth the time,and we do this by using the skills we already have,and build an actual device--any one you like MH.
Second--as i said,i have no intention of becoming an electronics guru,nor will i be spending my time learning all the jargon that makes sense to only a hand full of people on this forum.
EE guys are only a minority on this(and most other) forums,so no need to waste time on silly language that will make things no better for me.


Brad