The Old Standard Ignition System. Battery. Coil. Points. And Condenser....

[citfta]

Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL

[Magluvin]

Hi Mags,

I am out of town and have very limited time to get online. I have only skimmed over the long list of PMs I found when I logged in.  I gather MH wants me to post his views on all this.  But I am not aware of any place he has posted those views and he hasn't shared them with me via PM either.  Anyway I don't have time or the inclination to get involved in all that right now.  So I will NOT be posting anything further about the simple coil, cap and points circuit.

Carroll

A funny side note.  One of my brother in laws who was very much NOT a mechanic was fussing one day about the new points he got.  He said to me "Look at these new points! Their not pointed at all.  They are just as flat as can be."  He was getting ready to try and sharpen them when I explained they were fine.  LOL

ok  thanks 

And that points story was very funny.

Mags

[norman6538]

mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together.

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only.

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman

[Magluvin]

mags said
I said this also in PM arguments.  If the first spark ionizes the air with the first strike, the next spark of the resonant oscillation will have an easier path to jump, and allowing a more robust spark series to continue as the oscillations die down .

Thanks for all your support here guys. MH has a thing against any resonance talk. Well we know better and he is just will not let our true knowledge of the gains Im presenting with this and speakers, so far  (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) , to be brought out. Well here is our chance to explore these things without his disruptions.  Lets do this. I am sure we are on the correct path, if we choose to walk it together. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/grin.gif)

First work on efficiency, then add resonance, and we should be able to take it over the top and achieve over 100%eff very easily, very soon. And not just in one way only. (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)

Mags

The problem I have with what you said it this....
In the case of the ign coil you do get a far better spark for no additional price. and if that is what you want
then great but when you want something else like power a light bulb - it does not get OU. Its great if you
stay in that box but outside that box it fails. Another example of this is the Bedini school girl motor.
The motor runs with good efficiency and it also extends ( like the cap extends the spark ) the runtime
of the motor by putting the otherwise wasted current back into the battery but as in the spark and RLC circuits - it
winds down. So the Bedini motor will run and power something and also charge something else at the
same time but its not enough to loop back to itself and continue running.
So with the Bedini motor you can run it to do work and also light a light bulb to see what you are doing.

It took me years to figure this all out.

Norman

Here is something I explained in my other thread on speakers...

We need to start with a very efficient system or device, then when we add resonance to the device, we can get more efficiency.  If the device is say upper 90% eff, then the gain by adding resonance can take us over the top.

And Something else I explained in that thread is when we increase the number of drivers in the device, we increase output without increasing input.

A speaker that is 112db@1w sensitivity is 100% eff in Pin/Pae out.  This info is not widely known in the least. And there are speakers out there with this 112db@1w sensitivity rating. My friend is sending me some links of sites with speakers that are up to 117db@1w sensitivity.

Now if I have a 96db@1w sensitivity rated speaker, we are at 2.5%eff.  Seems unreal actually, being the speaker motor assy is a coreless motor of which are super eff.

So now we increase the number of drivers by doubling each time. We gain 3db for each doubling of drivers, while the total input remains at 1w in for each case

1 speaker  96db@1w  total input


2 speakers  99db@1w  total input


4 speakers  102db@1w  total input


8 speakers  105db@1w  total input


16 speakers  108db@1w  total input


32 speakers  111db@1w  total input     Just 1 db under100%eff.

So where does this gain come from?  Run the numbers on any speaker response graphing software and you will see it is true. I and many professionals use free WinIsd   it is accurate and does the job with ease.

64 speakers 114db@1w total   157%eff of Pin/Pae     Power in measured in Watts and Pae measured in Watts. Watts do not take on a different definition for each.

So now lets say we have 32 speakers 111db@1w and we put them in a ported enclosure tuned to say 60hz. at 60hz we will obtain even more gain by way of resonance of the tuned enclosure. All still at 1w..  You can read that thread for more on this.

The Ign coil is probably very inefficient. The one I used in the vid is no where near 100%eff.  Lol just the losses in the outer can can be very apparent if you think on it.

The ign coil example just shows the gain by way of resonance added to the existing system by adding the cap. I am in no way saying that the output spark is over 100%eff with the input.  it is just a resonance gain example.  Now if we had a more useful job for the output of the secondary, then we should look to improve the efficiency of that transformer before adding resonance to take it over the top.

On the speaker thread we have a  guy that tried measuring the output of a pulse motor starting with 1 coil then 2, then 4 then finally 8, all while adjusting the input to the same power input for each case.. You can read his results he discovered there. So we already have someone that can confirm the claim I am making on that.

Not saying we need to use speakers to make an OU device. If we examine the speakers eff and resonance activities, then we should try to use that as a basis for designing circuit to accomplish the same.  Adding drivers by doubling, we already have a path to ou. Its there, just keep doubling. Resonance can help us get further without doubling drivers any further.

Mags

[MileHigh]

This discussion references the two schematics for ignition circuits in the link below:

https://cdn.instructables.com/F4Z/QP4N/GC4G94M5/F4ZQP4NGC4G94M5.MEDIUM.gif

The circuit on the right gives the weaker spark and its operation is fairly simple.  A certain time after the switch closes the current flowing trough the primary reaches its maximum.  When the switch opens the current wants to keep flowing in the same direction.  Another way of stating that is that there is a certain amount of magnetic energy stored in the core and it has to go somewhere when the switch opens.  There are two paths for the energy, the primary coil and the secondary coil.  Since the secondary coil is many many turns, it develops a very high voltage and the magnetic energy leaves the coil via the secondary coil in a high-voltage spark to ground.  The "spark" is actually a short-lived air plasma "burn" that conducts electricity.  When the energy in the magentic core is depleted the plasma shuts down.

The amount of energy in the spark discharge is simply 1/2 L i-squared based on the primary coil.

The circuit on the left includes a capacitor, sometimes called a condenser, and this circuit generates a much stronger spark.  The operation of this circuit is more complicated and much different than the simpler circuit.  The action of this circuit can be called a "direct battery-plasma reaction."

When the swicth first opens there is a certain amount of magentic energy in the core that has to go somewhere.  One more time, the very high voltage secondary initiates a plasma spark just like for the simpler circuit.  However, here is where things change.  The conducting plasma on the end of the high-voltage coil to ground is a de facto temporary load resistor to ground.  The battery sees this "plasma load resistor" through the action of the "direct battery-plasma reaction."   The ignition coil acts like a conventional step-up transfomer.  This step-up transformer only exists while the plasma burn is taking place.  The battery is across the primary (with the capacitor in series).  The "plasma resistor" is across the seondary.  Since it is a high-voltage step-up transformer, the impedance of the "plasma resistor" is very low from the perspective of the primary and thus the battery, perhaps less than one ohm.  Therefore, the battery starts pumping current into the primary and adding magnetic energy to the ignition coil core.  That magnetic energy is output via the high voltage coil into the "plasma resistor."  So, in summary, the inital spark generated by the opening of the switch allows the battery to start directly discharging into the "plasma resistor" via the ignition coil acting like a step-up transformer.  This is the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Note that this "direct battery-plasma reaction" would not happen if the capacitor wasn't there to complete the current loop allowing the battery to pump power into the primary.  Without the capacitor in place, no battery current can flow, the battery never sees the plasma spark as a "plasma load resistor," and the plasma spark cannot get more energetic.

Now let's just look at the current loop (going counter-clockwise) formed by the battery (assume 12 volts), the primary, and the capacitor.  When the switch first opens, the capacitor has zero volts across it and the coil is at +12 volts on the bottom and zero volts at the top.  When the switch first opens, the polarity across the primary coil would normally reverse, but it can't reverse in this case because the voltage across the coil is clamped by the low-impedance battery voltage source of 12 volts and the zero-impedance capacitor voltage source of zero volts.  We can also clearly see that the current is going to flow counter-clockwise through the loop.  We also know that it is the battery that is supplying the extra power to make the plasma spark stronger and longer lasting. Effectively, the battery will pump power INTO the primary coil when current starts to flow.  Current flows into the bottom of the primary coil and out the top and the voltage across the primary coil drops as you go from the bottom to the top.  By definition the battery is pumping power into the coil.  This power that the battery is pumping into the primary coil has to go somewhere, and it goes into the "plasma resistor."  Very shortly after as the plasma is initially "ignited" by the opening of the switch, the plasma becomes a "plasma load resistor" for the battery through the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

Let's assume for example that the "plasma resistor" looks like a 0.5 ohm resistor as seen by the primary because of the step-up transformer.  Therefore the instant the battery starts conducting and pumpiing power into the plasma, the power level is 24 amps x 12 volts = 288 watts.  That sounds like a lot of power, but it starts decreasing right away and the whole cycle will only last for a short time.

As the battery conducts and pumps power into the plasma, it is also pumping power into the capacitor and charging it up.  Higher voltages on the capacitor will also lower the current flow.  Note once the current in the loop starts flowing the voltage across the capacitor starts at zero volts and starts climbing and the voltage across the coil starts at twelve volts and starts falling.  Therefore, initially, 100% of the supplied battery power goes into the "plasma resistor."  A short time later when the capacitor has charged to say three volts, then there is nine volts across the primary and 75% of the supplied battery power goes into the primary (and then straight into the "plasma resistor") and 25% of the supplied battery power goes into the capacitor.

Within a short time, the capacitor approaches 12 volts and the battery is pumping almost no power into the primary.  Therefore the plasma shuts down and the spark cycle is terminated.  The loop returns back to it's intital conditions before the switch was closed; the capacitor having 12 volts across it and the primary not conducting and therefore having is zero volts across it.

If the above explanation is correct, then the reason the spark is bigger with the added capacitor is that the capacitor completes the circuit that allows the battery to discharge directly into the plasma via the coil acting as a step-up transformer.  The plasma creates a resistor and the battery discharges through this "plasma resistor" until the capacitor reaches a high enough voltage to shut down the "direct battery-plasma reaction."  There may be some secondary voltage ringing artifacts observed, but these will have nothing to do with the actual plasma burn.  To verify this, a small loop of wire could be carefully placed near the high voltage circuit to act as a pick-up coil that detects the "ticks" on a scope that show the start of the plasma burn and the end of the plasma burn.  A second scope channel could look at the voltage increasing on the capacitor.  The assumption is that you would see a "plasma start burn tick" just as the capacitor voltage starts to rise and an "plasma end burn tick" when the capacitor voltage approaches 12 volts.  If any secondary ringing is observed, the assumption is that the ringing will not be directly related to the "direct battery-plasma reaction."

So, the instant after the switch opens, when you look at the capacitor voltage, you will see it start at zero volts and end at 12 volts.  When you look at the primary voltage, you will see it start at 12 volts and end at zero volts.  There will be no ringing or resonance, rather there wil just be singular rises and falls of voltage in the primary circuit - a "one shot."  This is a classic pulse circuit action.