Confirmation of OU devices and claims

[rickfriedrich]

This is why I always start my meetings with extended details on this exact information. If you can't understand the complexities of batteries you will not know how to evaluate a free energy system that uses batteries. I share all these details in many of my videos and expose the tricks and self-deceptions people do in videos and 5 minute tests. I have dealt with thousands of people on the old forums with this. This is old news but people still oversimplify batteries. I rarely find an engineer that has a proper understanding of batteries, so I never assume that anyone knows even the basics.

I usually start my videos with batteries at rest for a long time so people can see I am not manipulating voltages. I often draw attention to a trick some people pull along these lines. Here are two:

1. Someone loads down an input battery with a big load just before the video starts. Then they start the video and run the energizer kind of system with the same battery while showing a voltmeter on that battery. Guess what will happen? The voltage will slowly go up over the short time of the faked demonstration. Why does that happen. Well because the person is a deceiver. But this physically happens because there is a big voltage drop with the big load, and the battery is bouncing back to a resting voltage or stabilized place. The new load of the motor is relatively smaller so the bounce back is still taking place and showing a rising voltage. If they would run the video long enough you would see it eventually go down. So I always talk for a long time before I run any setup with batteries for this reason. Now you can understand one of the reasons to have long videos    Not that I am trying to prove anything, but I am trying to give an example in that.

2. I have shared this for many years now, and probably say this on the phone every day. If a battery is sulfated it will rise in voltage because only a small portion of the plate is being charged. Once our dissolving of the sulfation takes place it will come back down before it goes up again (while slowly increasing the capacity). But tricksters who know this will show a big sulfated battery with fast increasing voltage and claim that this means it is really charging fast. When a visited a lab in south east Pennsylvania that charges people a lot of money just to see it, I found nothing working there but my motors. Then I was shown some old batteries that I was told charge up very fast. After looking at my motor connected to them for a few minutes I confirmed that this was happening and that the batteries had no capacity.

Don't believe the hype as I have always warned. These are two reasons why you cannot trust any video as proving anything. These are done without any editing manipulations.

But as for this line below: "This can result in what I refer to as 'stalling', where the battery terminal voltage appears to 'hang' steady for a long period of time." This takes place more or less at all discharge rates in most batteries, and not merely at less than the C20 rate. The lead acid battery has various plateaus in its discharge and charge curves. This changes with more and more usage with the Renaissance charging processes. For example, a 12V battery can often sit at 12.2V for a long while before it takes a dive more suddenly (when the load conditions remain the same). It can also hold the voltage above 10.5 and then dramatically drop of and the battery is done. This is why AH ratings are to 10.5V and inverters shut off at that point. But what we experience is a more linear voltage that starts with higher resting voltage and holds consistent voltage all the way down to zero to allow for real loading below 10.5V and up to 2 times the total real capacity of the battery (and loading it down to zero and cycling does not harm the batteries when they are properly charged). For example, I could drive my Porsche with 144V bank for 10 miles and the resting voltage, even after a day of resting, would be considered fully charged at 152V (like 12.66V battery). Then when I got to the 126V discharged place (not under load), which would be like 10.5V on a 12V battery, I would not worry about my batteries taking a dive as all my other friends in the electric vehicle club would. They would have to get towed home, while I would still drive many more miles with no substantial sudden dip of power.

Needless to say, I am not making any mistakes with batteries in my loading or calculations or metering. I know my batteries and their real capacitors and curves very well as I deal with them full time for 15 years now. Very few people bother to learn these basics and fewer still understand proper battery charging. All the rules of the battery bible, or Peter's video talk about such, do not apply with proper battery charging. There are no ideal battery charging voltages. There are no cycling limits or depth of discharge concerns with proper charging.

So you can rightfully dismiss other people's claims because they show no evidence of understanding these things, and actually show evidence of deceit or mistake in these matters. But I have been more vocal in educating people in these matters than anyone. My frequent and prolonged example of this is even considered annoying.

As for the black box video, if you are trying to imply that such mistakes were being made, this was not the case. I worked those batteries for 2 weeks charging and discharging them down to zero to fully evaluate them with resistive loads. They did not have any dips or plateaus, and they were only 14AH each. If they were 60 to 100AH batteries then you could bring this up as a real question. But the motor was drawing around 6W continuously for 1 hour while maintaining the same voltage after the initial voltage drop. It continuously charged another battery that started up from 11.8V resting and continued over 13V the entire time. The input battery did rise a little when the first or second 100W bulb was added to the 3 other 3W loads because it needed some slight tuning (as done with the RPM). You could also see the neon bulbs coming on because too much energy was coming back to the motor side and it was slightly unbalanced at that point. So the input battery charges up in that case when there was too much load.

This was done not over 5 minutes, but 1 hour so that people could see that this was not an example of plateaus, etc. It also showed that it was not a matter of sulfation as a sulfated battery has no real capacity and under load just drops and powers nothing. You cannot run a 14AH battery with a 6W motor load and 3W + 3W + 3W load for an hour and not see voltages drop. If you think otherwise then show us a video and explain how that could be. A 15W load will steadily drop the battery voltage down, and will certainly show immediate voltage drops with each load being added. But add a 100W load in addition and the voltage would certainly change for the lower. Then a second 100W bulb. That particular setup was made to power all the large LED modules (over 100W each, over 1000W total) in a office/shop while keeping both batteries in a balanced place.

I have demonstrated this at many meetings, and in the last three years I have often had all the parts open and running for two days straight. People bring in their Fluke meters and oscopes and measure everything. But I am not there to prove OU but rather to teach them how to do this. They will often bring in their setups and we will get them going properly. But I always spend several hours starting the first day with battery details and handouts on the subject.

As for high frequencies and impulse charging, it is also important to know that you can never effectively measure a battery while it is being impulsed. You can get a feel over time where a battery is at with the relative voltage readings of a particular meter after cycling it many times and properly loading it so that you know where it is at. But different meters will give different voltages depending on the nature of the pulse. And as I mentioned, pulsing LEDs without capacitors can also be tricky to evaluate. These bulbs all had filtering and capacitors to allow for a more constant load condition.

Hi Void,
I would like to add that when the DUT is running from a battery supply, be aware of the current drawn as a percentage of the C20 rate of the battery. If the current drawn is very substantially less, than the C20 rated current for the battery, then the effective battery capacity is very substantially increased (ref Peukerts Law). This can result in what I refer to as 'stalling', where the battery terminal voltage appears to 'hang' steady for a long period of time. It is also possible that the battery terminal voltage will rise for a period of time, especially if the battery is sulfated to an extent, giving the impression that the DUT is running on free energy! It is in this situation, as well as heavily loaded situations on a battery, that vagaries appear and can very easily lead to false conclusions on the efficiency of a given DUT. Using low current LED's and big batteries, exacerbates this 'hanging' condition. Also, allowing high frequency voltages onto the battery supply rails without effective filtering, also results in vagaries leading to false conclusions.

[rickfriedrich]

Void,
They probably are needing proper forming. See my recent video on the subject:
https://youtu.be/2oN8wcM_nz8
If you contact the manufacture or look at the datasheet you can learn about this. If electrolytic capacitors sit for the good part of a year then they become uneven inside and will unevenly charge and also be leaky. They can also explode because of this.
Super caps are great because they are low ESR and charge and discharge fast. But they are limited in respect to their low voltage when you are dealing with higher voltage impulsing. So using a hv strobe cap in parallel can allow for the best of both worlds. But there is a science as to finding the ideal capacitor voltages to work with in relation to step charging and discharging...

Hi Hoppy. Yes, I agree. Using a relatively high capacity battery with a small load at the output could
give the false impression that the battery is staying close to fully charged. Itsu avoids that
sort of problem by testing using super caps, I believe, which is good, but the super caps I have are fairly leaky so not the best for that kind of testing. Maybe you can get a type of super caps these days that have low leakage losses. Not sure. That would be great for testing if very low leakage super caps are available.

[NickZ]

   The smaller 4AH 12v battery are cheap and will work, and can be used for testing purposes. Let that size battery run the device all night, then test its voltage, and amperage. If it's not dead in the morning, you have something. The one hour tests, using big car batteries is useless for demonstrations purposes, when lighting LEDs, or making short videos, (or long ones).
   A 10w incandescent bulb, would show the long term draw on the smaller battery, much better. As leds can light on a fraction of their rated voltage, and current. Even the 100w leds, still show some good light at much lower draws.
  The impedense also has to also be factored in, for higher efficiency, when using different coils and/or bulbs. But, that alone will not cause an OU situation.
   Placing a grid powered led next to the device's gated and boasted led, and pointing it to the camera a few feet away, will show the difference if there is any. It's not the best test, but it does work. As putting the negative probe of the scope probes on the coils, MAY affect the readings. Perhaps it may work using only the positive probe, although the signal will look somewhat messy. Let me know what you think, concerning the effect of scope probes, connected onto this type of device.

[Hoppy]

Rick,
How do you measure the source battery capacity before and after a long demonstration to confirm no loss or perhaps a gain in stored energy? As you know battery terminal voltages are not a reliable indicator of battery capacity. Also, Do you demonstrate your procedure for this to your students before and after demos?

[AlienGrey]

Rick,
How do you measure the source battery capacity before and after a long demonstration to confirm no loss or perhaps a gain in stored energy? As you know battery terminal voltages are not a reliable indicator of battery capacity. Also, Do you demonstrate your procedure for this to your students before and after demos?

I hate to be a cynic  but unless you have a device that's capable of eather delaying the
humble electron to the finishing post than your grab circuit your never going to achieve much and that's a fact! Because that's what it amounts to.