Newman machine with a closed loop selfrunning without batteries or solar panels

[Humbugger]

Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

Your original statement would have been the easiest free energy i ever heard of!  You can see that you don't get sixteen-fold energy increase when you put the same batteries in series instead of in parallel. 

You get either way the same total energy and it's 9V x 625mA x 1hr x 16 = 90 Watthours total

Your mistake is simple:  You've got the 16 term in there twice!

[mikestocks2006]

Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

1 battery has capacity of  625 mAh
16 batteries have how much total capacity?

I stated they have a total  capacity of 16x625=10000mAh or 10 Ah, which you objected

Are you saying that in series the total capacity of 16 batteries is 625mAh ?
but only in parallel is 10000mAh ?

You are mixing units and conversions. Read my capacitor simple example again.

The total system energy capacity (16 9v batteries) is the same either in series or in parallel. You can take out the same total energy.  Not sure how simpler that this can be stated.

[Humbugger]

Okay, it is apparently not quite simple enough yet for either of us!   

It is you who seem to me to be slightly confused regarding what an Ampere hour is.  Let's ask this: 

If you have a battery of unknown voltage rating but you know it is a 50 Amp hour battery, and it is charged fully to exactly that (it will run dead in exactly one hour at a constant 50A drain), can you tell me in Watt hours or any other unit of energy how much energy you can get out of it?

No, you can't because you would have to know the voltage first to figure out the energy. Ampere hours are not an energy unit.  Ampere hours when multiplied by Volts become an energy unit, Watthours.

The reason we get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries when we put them in parallel is that only the 1/n part of current (n = number of batteries in parallel) flows in each of the batteries.

The reason we don't get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries in series is that 100% of the total current flows through each and every battery at all times.  What we do get to multiply is the voltage total, since they are in series.

Hum

[Humbugger]

Ampere Hours.  which only becomes an energy rating after you multiply in a voltage.  Then the unit shifts to an energy unit, watthours, joules, etc.  Ampere Hours is a unit of current capacity, not energy.  In a given battery, we tend to think of it as an energy capacity number but that's because the voltage is assumed to be fixed at the voltage rating of the battery. 

You only get to multiply the Ah rating of the batteries if they are in parallel, where you don't multiply the voltage.  In series, you multiply the voltage but not the Ah rating.

are we there yet?

Hum

To prove this to yourself very easily, simply take your 144 Volts times 10Ah and you get 1440 watthours.

Now do it for a parallel connection and you find your error, since it's now only 9.x Volts times 10Ah which is only 90-some watthours.  Get it?

1 battery has capacity of  625 mAh
16 batteries have how much total capacity?  depends if they are series or parallel

I stated they have a total  capacity of 16x625=10000mAh or 10 Ah, which you objected  still do

Are you saying that in series the total capacity of 16 batteries is 625mAh ?  yesbut only in parallel is 10000mAh ? yes

You are mixing units and conversions.  nope   Read my capacitor simple example again.

The total system energy capacity (16 9v batteries) is the same either in series or in parallel. You can take out the same total energy.  Not sure how simpler that this can be stated.  no arguments here with these three sentences

Hey Mike...

I know we probably should have taken this elsewhere about ten posts ago to avoid pissing off Stefan and others who come to the thread for Joseph Newman news.  We could take it private, but I think there is something important to be learned here and others might want to folow our confusion until it is resolved.

I've thought about starting a thread called Humbugger Tries to Teach Basic Electronic Terminology and Relationships.  I think this conversation would be a good candidate.  We are just missing a basic understanding here and, at this point, we don't seem to be converging on it very fast. 

I'm glad we can "argue" without getting too frustrated or getting angry at each other.  If anyone cares to follow along on this until we reach a clear verdict, it's going here:


http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3287.msg49199.html#msg49199

Humbugger

@Stefan  Could you move these posts there for us?  It starts with reply #24; God knows where it ends!  I'm going to try to find an appropriate location and title.  When I do, I'll come back and edit this post to put the link in.  Sorry for the trouble.  Thanks.

[mikestocks2006]

Okay, it is apparently not quite simple enough yet for either of us!   

It is you who seem to me to be slightly confused regarding what an Ampere hour is.  Let's ask this: 

If you have a battery of unknown voltage rating but you know it is a 50 Amp hour battery, and it is charged fully to exactly that (it will run dead in exactly one hour at a constant 50A drain), can you tell me in Watt hours or any other unit of energy how much energy you can get out of it?

No, you can't because you would have to know the voltage first to figure out the energy. Ampere hours are not an energy unit.  Ampere hours when multiplied by Volts become an energy unit, Watthours.

The reason we get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries when we put them in parallel is that only the 1/n part of current (n = number of batteries in parallel) flows in each of the batteries.

The reason we don't get to multiply the Ampere hour rating of batteries in series is that 100% of the total current flows through each and every battery at all times.  What we do get to multiply is the voltage total, since they are in series.

Hum

Hum, you state above underlined:
Ampere hours are not an energy unit

That's where the cofusion lies.
In battery terms Ah is energy unit
see: http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/battery.html
Amp-hour
Unit of electrical energy, one amp of current flowing for one hour. Abbreviated Ah

You can't have it both ways, 625mAh when 16 9v are in series and 10000mAh when 16 9v in parralel.
The total system energy is the same.