Meyer's WFC concept analysed

[keithturtle]

Farrah Day, with respect to the Kanarev process, I've read the patents and his papers, but still, I cain't seem to git my haid wrapped around his process. 

How does he git 600% efficiency?   I'm missin' sumthin' thar, and I don't know what it is.

Gots any pointers?

Thanks,
Turtle

[albert]

Hello,
I've been following your discussion with much interest. Let me mention some things:
In the water cell discussions on h2earth they come now to the point where they say that one of meyers electrodes was effectively insulated by a plastic coating. (Delrin) On the panacea university site there is a patent by Eccles showing a WFC type cell with the electrodes OUTSIDE the glass container, not in contact with the water at all.
I have experimented with the electrolysis process and found out that your negative electrode gets a coating that seems to be a deposit of calcium oxide, the stuff you get in your water kettle when the tap water is "hard"- from a mountainous area. And the normal electrolysis really works a lot better once the coating is there.
Now to the Meyer process- I agree with all of you that the original patents read as a lot of obscure stuff. Some inventors get obsessed with the idea of having a patent - they will reformulate their claims until the examiner will grant the patent. Then it has nothing to do with the original idea anymore. I have been thru this, so I know what I am talking about....
ALBERTS FIRST LAW: Never ask a (free energy) inventor how his/her invention works-he will be the last one to know it. Or if he knows it he can't explain it coherently. That does not mean the invention is worthless though.
Part of the confusion stems from the fact that Meyer was working on different processes at the same time. As far as I understodd it, the final version of the Dune buggy had an injector system where the water dissociated in the cylinder- being sprayed in form of a fine mist while it  was electrically charged. This is entirely different from the WFC process.
I can't help it- the Meyer WFC seems to me to be much closer to a laser process than to a normal electrolysis process. You pump energy into a system- step charge the water- at a certain point the molecules will break up. This would indeed NEED a diode in the input.
The ROTOVERTER guys say that radiant energy is a form of electricity where you create a standing wave. Resonance in an LC circuit will mean that voltage and current are out of phase with each other. If one could run the water cell in a standing wave "node" where the current is zero or almost zero and the voltage is maximized, this would mean you could break apart the water molecule with extremely low current. Does that make sense to you electronically versed guys?
Last thing: I am using a high powered bedini SSG with 5 coils for powering the test cell. I get lots of gas at 36 Volts 400 mA input. (That is on the primary side of the bedini motor. On the secondary side I cannot measure the amps because of the highly pulsed nature of the signal. No extra choke coils.
But it is not the almost explosive hho production that can be seen in some of the videos on the web. The "normal" electrolysis on my cell will draw 3.5 Amps out of a 12 v battery. I get lots of very fine bubbles that fog up the water in seconds. On the Bedini the gas bubbles are completely different-much larger ones come off the plates. Food for thought perhaps. We have to find the common points in all these processes. The circuit Meyer seems to have used also has a lot of similarity to Beardens MEG. On the newest version of D9 Patrick Kelly explains in more detail the Bob Boyce process. Here the key component is this specially wound toroid transformer system. I'll be damned if this is not the thing the Steven Marks TPU guys are fiddling with.
Stan Meyer and others at the time did not have the internet, or they would have seen the similarities of the processes themselves. Lets try to get this working soon, here we are suffocating under the oil prices.....
Please keep up the good work!

Albert

[Farrah Day]

Hi KT

I've only really skipped through the Kanarev stuff myself, as he seems to be experimenting with only very small quantities.

The other thing of course is that Kanarev's experiments are at the opposite end of the spectrum compared with Meyer's High Voltage stuff.  What I tend to do is go through all the various designs and theories and try to see where there could be some overlap. I.e. something that all the concepts have in common, some underlying connection that, perhaps not immediately obvious, produces similar results in each case.

The problem is, it can get confusing if you try to follow or integrate too many concepts all at the same time. Hence, I've decided to focus on Meyer's design at this point. I feel that if we can explain one concept, then others, like the 'Joe cell' might also become clear.  The Joe cell incidentally has just got to be the most mysterious of all, and my gut feeling is that somewhere along the line the Meyer wfc and the Joe cell tap into the same energy.

I know there has been little or no interest in what I said about the oxide layer on the SS actually being the dielectric, but something I read on another forum by 'Ravi', has made me even more convinced by this now. He stated that it took months for his cells to be conditioned and working at the efficiency they were currently working at.

This is what I think is happening:

Stainless steel is 'stainless' because of the chromuim in it. The chromium oxidises when it comes into contact with oxygen. This creates an invisible, extremely thin film of chromuim oxide (Cr2O3). This film of chromium oxide self-heals like galvanised steel, but unlike galvanised steel the layer is only atoms thick. Chromium oxide is an insulator, with a dielectric constant of around 13, but at literally only atoms thick, simply touching it will break through this insulation.

Now, the interesting thin about stainless steel is that it will actually corrode badlly in an OXYGEN FREE environment. It is the continual pressence of oxygen in the air or water that allows the oxide film to self-heal and maintain itself.  Now, think about what we do when we use ss as an anode.  We immerse the ss in water containing free oxygen which maintains its protective oxide layer, but then we attract lots of pure oxygen directly onto it's surface.  I believe we are enhancing the oxide layer, thickening the oxide layer and so creating a more formidable dielectric layer. Hence we have a better water capacitor that will hold a charge for longer

I know some of you boys will again poo-poo this, but it should not be so readily discounted.

If this is the case, there must be more efficient and faster methods to enhance this oxide layer (which I'll be experimenting with), like using a blowtorch on the ss plate.

Farrah Day

[albert]

I also happen to think that this oxide question is one of the keys to the story. This is why there have been so many failures in replicating this. You can't change nature's course, some processes are slow and have to be carried out with patience.
Albert

[Farrah Day]

Hi Albert

I somehow missed your first post above, and so have only just read it.

I suppose it's limescale depositing on the cathode, effectively another insulating material - does everyone get this, or is it just hard water areas?

I have given thought to, and mentioned a couple of times the possibility of using glass as the dielectric for wfc, with the anode perhaps foil around the outside as in a 'Leyden Jar', and I think it would be worth doing some experimenting in this area. But this is assuming that water is NOT the dielectric, which most people seem quite happy and unwaveringly content to think it is.

However, my initial thoughts are that a very thin layer of chromuim oxide with a dielectric constant of around 13 will produce a capacitor which can store a lot more energy than a Leyden Jar.  Glass has dielectric constant of around half that of the chromium oxide, and of course as the capacitance is inversely proportional to the distance between the plates, a glass jar being many millions of times thicker than the oxide layer, will consequently hold far less energy.

When Lawton adds more cells in parallel to his existing setup and finds that the current is reducing, it's because he is increasing the capacitance of his wfc. This enables the cell configuration to hold more charge, hence potential difference of his wfc increases, so the current decreases.

This dielectric issue is the key, and those people who prefer to dismiss or ignore this will be 'chasing their tails' for ever and a day and getting nowhere, when the rest of us will have moved on!

This will also mean that the design of the wfc can be made very much more efficient by creating a more complex anode that exhibits many times more surface area than simple plates and concentric tubes.

Farrah Day