The heatpump, with more energy out than in (FACT)

[Nabo00o]

Yes, that's really the main problem with this setup, how to find a sterling engine capeable of handling power up in the kilowatt scale. I think I have seen some quite big ones on youtube, with a lot of tourqe, and powered by candle lights
But that's the thing tough, that the practiality of this system isn't all that good yet, even if the concept seems to be correct.
I'd just wish some big manufacturer could build a powerplant with a heatpump as the source of energy, I guess you could allways have used a lot of small motors instead of a big one, that way it would at least function....

[lancaIV]

Mister Thomas Cosby is an"Oldtimer", if he is alive, in the middle eigthies-
and not a webpage-freak !
I would estimate that this us.geocities-page is from the end-90ÂÃ,´.

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5626459&F=0

        Amplitude:      80 degrees Fahrenheit ~ 32 degrees Celsius

Sincerely
             CdL

[Nabo00o]

I hope I'm not a "Naysayer" in this instance, but in a "Closed" system, cooler is LESS energy.

So, even though a Heat pump can have a "COP" of 4 (I think that's around average now..), the
heat IS coming from the external source.  The easiest way to see this is put the heat pump
"Pickup" cores into an enviroment where the temp is below the evaporation point of the working
fluid, as it is used in what type of pump.  At that temp, the COP is <1.  The extra energy is
coming from the enviroment, usually by evaporation, and the compressor just converts the
"Gas" back to liquid.

This is a seperate concept than more efficient pumps, motors, turbines or whatever, and so I
can't properly mention them, other than to discount them for this specific application.  Here is
the bottom line, as far as a True Closed system, with no Heat in or out.  If you have a 100%
efficient sterling engine, driving a heat pump, creating the heat difference for the engine, this
will run down from friction losses eventually.   Any energy drawn from the system will actually
drop the overall tempurature of the system until there is not enough heat left to operate.

Sorry, but that is a very old arguement, long ago proven, but don't take my word for it.  That
was actually a MAJOR teaching point in my 7th grade physics class.  (Too many decades
ago for me to count...)  Any part of the process that could be enhanced to OU operation is
a whole different story, but to counter the title, the "Heatpump" is just that.  It Pumps "HEAT".
Nothing more or less.  A Pump that drew 0 power, other than motion loss replacement, would
still not be OU from a system point.  The Heat, or Energy, that it puts out is Pumped, not created,
or generated in any way.

My last blurb.  If anyone can come up with a way to Pump heat, AND produce power at the same
time, from the PUMP itself, then you have made an OU device, as well as perpetual motion.  More
complexity won't help, only make things worse.  However, here's where it gets good.  The electric
company used to offer heat pump assists for the water heater in your home.  The problem was, they
would draw heat from the basement, or whatever room you mounted the unit it.  What comes to my
mind is, and was, what if you wanted to Air condition that room?  (Strangely, you can't get them
anymore.  Geee,   I wonder why...)

Art.

No, you are not a naysayer
But also, 'no', you are wrong.
In our closed system, energy can be more than one thing.
Energy can be the heated atoms which hold more energy the more heat they have stored in them, or which keeps them in high motion.
That's the view which makes all those arguments people have against a heatpump's extraordinary efficiency to hold true. Then there is no extra efficiency, just a movment of heat.
But the other energy potential which is of much greater importance to me is the temperature potential between any gradient of heat.
Be it extremely cold and a little warmer, or extremely hot and a little colder, (or even wamrer), the energy lies in the differance between the two temperatures, and we can collect that energy and normally does with stirling engine because its made to do just that.

Now, in this instance cold is energy, because coolness add's a temperature potential. Now, a heatmpump does just that, it creates a higher potential differance for a lesser input of energy. It is allready far overunity, in my mind at least.

And if you used the heatpump in the simple configuration that I suggested the room or isolated box wouldn't begin to cool down as the energy was tapped. Since we both create a heat and cold potential from the heat pump we use both in the stirling engine, and what is the stirling engine doing with the potential? It ballances it out so that there is no more energy potential in the room, only a little more hotter since some energy was lost in the heat pump's conversion inefficiencies between electrical and mechanical work.

Now is that wrong, does the coolness not relate to a energy potential if you use it to move air and mechanical parts?
Isn't it even just only coolness that is needed to drive a special made stirling engine that could run on ice-chunks, as am sure you can find it if you search the tube. Also of course, it can not run on the coolness alone, just as it can not run on heat alone. It needs a temperature differance between two levels and the heat pump creates that, for much less energy input than a 100% efficient electrical heater would (if you look at the potential it creates).

Again, this is a subject which is controversial, but I think I have made this topic clear enough so that people can realize the error in the views they have had about the heat pump's incredible efficiency. Again, where am I wrong? I'd like to hear your reply.

[Nabo00o]

You know, I think this whole subject bout the heat pump has become over complicated. It could be made much easier to comprehend by using simple statments to what it does and why it does it.
But first I must try to answer some of your questions:

You are describing the "Difference" in temperature as being an energy source?  Come on....
ANY difference in "Potential", weather it's velocity, EMF, Mag Fields, or temperature is where
we get ALL of or energy, so that whole concept is well defined.

Yes, but strangely enough people seems to forget that fact when they talk about the real efficiency of an heat pump, and instead only talks about the heat energy which is moved back and forth, which then of course will not give any more energy or potential.

Lets start at the beginning.  There is no such thing as a truly closed system.....
....      and THAT is what true research on FE and OU is all about.

Sorry for the cut down there, but YES, of course I agree!
That's the whole point with overunity and free energy research, energy is never created, its only collected and transformed from other sources, and to put it easly, when that source is outside of you system, or if its not accounted for in you system, then that system will ALLWAYS be a open system. Of course all systems that exists anywere in the universe is an open system, since they all interact with each other and dynamically exchange their energies with each other.

Start the
heatpump, and you  can move the heat around, creating the potential difference.  The difference
will contain the amount of energy that you put into it from the power to the heatpump.  Even if the
Sterling gets ALL of the difference and converts it, you will find that what you got out, assuming
100% transfer (Yeah, right...) is exactly what you put in.  With a fully closed system, you could
possibly put in 500Joules of power and keep circulating it around for a Loooong time, put as soon
as you pull that power back out, the potential difference will start to drop and at 500Joules out, you
will have no more potential difference anymore.

If we say that this is the heat pump/sterling engine in a box setup, than what you are saying completely wrong!
This sentence right here:

The difference will contain the amount of energy that you put into it from the power to the heatpump.

This is wrong, because that's exactly the power of a heat pump over existing technology, "it moves the heat for less energy than necessary to generate the heat". It creates a higher temperature potential by moving the heat than what would be possible by generating it in a common heat-producing process. The potential is allready higher in this box, in the normal COP of 3-4. Out of nothing, well no, it could come from anywhere. The point is that this is where we have our main conflict, and I am sure one of us will be able to agree with the other if we are both open to new ideas and able admitt ones mistakes. At least I hope I am

I realize that I cannot convince everybody, nor will I try, but the fun example is this.  A Free heatpump,
which does exist and is in use.  Simple design and uses gravity for it's power source.  Seems like
that is a free energy source, but it's actually using gravity.  How that conversion affects the system
is unknown to me, but it's still not a free energy device, due to that gravity input that is required.  In
case you have never heard about them, here is the simple version, but they come in many more forms
and have been commercially available for over 30 years in the manufacturing industry.  Imagine a tube,
say 1 Meter long.   Place this upright and fill with a liquid that evaporates at low temp.  Make sure
this tube has hollow fins on all sides, both inside and out, and remove air,etc, then seal the thing.

Hehe, I know this one. Its the drinking bird. There's some funny videos of it on youtube.
It's a little bit interesting, since it seems to be able to move itself more relative to gravity because of the condensing fluid's pathway upwards towards the sky. I don't so much about it that I can say anything for sure, allthough I have seen one model were a guy have made a big wheel with about 4 or 8 cylinders on it. It moves very slowly but has a lot of horsepower....

In any pure heat conversion, once 0K is reached, the system stops.

Yes and this is where the heat pump is different. I does not generate heat, it only moves heat, and its really not the same thing.
Mabye you could say that its like moving the boundries of the system relative to other systems in order to make them interact ....

Now for the other end.  There is no-way that we are quickly going to remove all the heat from the Earth
in a short period of time, so there IS a tremendous source of energy right below out feet.  Tapping and
using this is easier that you would think, and devices to do it are readily available.  I'm certain of the
reasons that they are not in more common use, and that has to do with energy control, etc., but it
STILL would not be "FE" or "OU" in the overall sense.  Still, it would look great on paper and would
take a long time to turn the Earth into an Ice Cube.  Sure, we could then reheat with other energy forms
and matter-energy conversion, but that's a different set of concepts and wouldn't make any of the
Heatpump setups OU.  Now, if you could create a unit that produces more heat than power input,
WITHOUT pumping it from another source, there is OU and FE, but then you don't have a heatpump.
Now you have a heat generator.  Different concept.   Just like a fridge, the heat out comes from the
heat in the items put in the fridge, and the losses in the compressor, etc.  Not from no-where.

The heat pump will not create any exess heat if you just let the potential inside the box or whatever to equall itself out again. Then the usable potential will have been removed just as much as it had been created by the pump. However, if you let the cop 4 temperature potential created inside the box to be used by a stirling engine, so that the heat and cold does not get in the extremes (as the higher the difference between the source and the sink is, the lower the efficiency is), then you could use the extra potential created  and for example create more heat via mechanical interactions.

So this is basically were it stands for me, and I belive I have told you were the errors in your assumtions are made (from my view of course).

I hope I have not bored you away from this forum forever.....

[infringer]

Art you are most likely correct but is any system truley a closed system there is minute effects from the enviorment in every system everything has a decay life as well so the universe is doomed eventually unless galaxies reincarnate go from energy to matter once again ...

It is my belief that energy is never lost and neither is matter it is shifted from one form back to the other.

But that is just a belief and a whole nother topic...

But the goal here is electricity no matter how scientific if they roll like every thing is supposed to roll in 2010 you shall only pay 10cents a watt for solar...
Granted that is an estimate based on mass production. But for about a grand or a little better a household could be energy dependandt lets say two grand...

Personally the best option I believe is to store energy as hho or hydrogen and use the excess for cloudy days...

That will cost more but... I think hydrogen then will be the cleanest alternative that this world has seen and will be a niche. If i had to bet money on our free energy future thats where I would say its at.

-infringer-