I thought it would be interesting to start a thread where people can list mistakes they often see when people are researching OU.
If you are aware of these mistakes. Then you can avoid spending a lot of time on a project which may not pan out.
You are also in a much better position to answer your critics. You will know ahead of time what accusations they are going to throw at you so can prepare a brilliant and witty response :)
So I'll start it off with one we see oh so often, and another I have never seen anyone mention but have often seen it
Please categorise (correct English spelling) each mistake. I will try and collate them for easy reference with a link to the person who proposed it.
Power measurements:
Mistake: Voltage = Power
Reason: Voltage or EMF does not equate to power. just because you achieve high voltage doesnt mean you achieve high power, Combing your hair can achieve high voltage. but results in very little power.
Similarly but not seen very often...
Mistake: Current = Power
Reason: Like voltage having a lot of it doesn't equate to power, for example within a superconductor you can induce huge current flows. but those current flows will not result in high output power, because they can also be stopped as easily as they started.
Magnet Motors:
This one I see and no one seems to be aware of it.
Mistake: Using Aluminium (correct English spelling) and thinking its not magnetic.
Reason: Aluminium is a conductor. If a magnetic field moves through it, current WILL flow. That current will produce a magnetic field opposing the magnetic field that caused the current to flow. This is how the levitation in bullet trains work. If you have an aluminium frame or something near your magnet motor it will cause efficiency losses.
Note: It could also be used to your advantage. Think SMOT!
Ok Guys if anyone wants to join me and add your own thoughts please do.
CC
Quote from: CuriousChris on August 19, 2011, 10:08:18 PM
I thought it would be interesting to start a thread where people can list mistakes they often see when people are researching OU.
If you are aware of these mistakes. Then you can avoid spending a lot of time on a project which may not pan out.
You are also in a much better position to answer your critics. You will know ahead of time what accusations they are going to throw at you so can prepare a brilliant and witty response :)
So I'll start it off with one we see oh so often, and another I have never seen anyone mention but have often seen it
Please categorise (correct English spelling) each mistake. I will try and collate them for easy reference with a link to the person who proposed it.
Power measurements:
Mistake: Voltage = Power
Reason: Voltage or EMF does not equate to power. just because you achieve high voltage doesnt mean you achieve high power, Combing your hair can achieve high voltage. but results in very little power.
Similarly but not seen very often...
Mistake: Current = Power
Reason: Like voltage having a lot of it doesn't equate to power, for example within a superconductor you can induce huge current flows. but those current flows will not result in high output power, because they can also be stopped as easily as they started.
Magnet Motors:
This one I see and no one seems to be aware of it.
Mistake: Using Aluminium (correct English spelling) and thinking its not magnetic.
Reason: Aluminium is a conductor. If a magnetic field moves through it, current WILL flow. That current will produce a magnetic field opposing the magnetic field that caused the current to flow. This is how the levitation in bullet trains work. If you have an aluminium frame or something near your magnet motor it will cause efficiency losses.
Note: It could also be used to your advantage. Think SMOT!
Ok Guys if anyone wants to join me and add your own thoughts please do.
CC
Pan out, your better off gold panning and selling it to U.S markets.
Quote from: webby1 on August 20, 2011, 02:07:18 AM
To start a thread that may give those that do not have the knowledge of the things they need to look at while looking at the things they are looking at is a very good idea, but unfortunately those that need it will not read, nor listen, and those that think they have the answer will tell all of their follies.
Perhaps you are right :(
Quote from: webby1 on August 20, 2011, 02:07:18 AM
To that I will add:
The core in an electric coil to magnetic condition is a catalyst, treat it correctly
Please explain, what do you mean by that statement?
The idea is to be instructional. by that I mean explain why its a mistake or gotcha. and if possible how it can be corrected.
@onthecuttingedge2005
I am not sure why you would quote everything I said, just to make a one line comment about the choice of two words. Dare I say rather wasteful?
CC
Using taught Electrical Engineering Laws only to try to build an over unity device. Since the early as 1920 we have had the true nature of energy suppressed by those who want to sell us energy. See Walter Russell's, Tesla, Ed Leedskalin...etc. on this idea verses what we are now taught.
Paranoia
Mistake: Believing there is a conspiracy to hide the true nature of energy.
Reason: Humans are human, If there is a dollar to be made they will find a way to make it. Even if some opposing company/country doesn't want you to let the cat out of the bag. The reason why popular science does not believe in OU is because so far no-one has been able to do it reproducibly. When we do it reproducibly then science may say, "Oh shit we made a mistake". Even if we do prove OU, for most everyday things it will not change anything. Most technology will go on just the way it is. Why? because it works. So why change it. There will just be a new branch of science to deal with it (OU). The old will give way to the new. That's the way it's always been, and always will be.
Tesla did not believe in OU. He experimented with it and then declared it couldn't be done. As brilliant as Tesla was he had his limits like we all do.
We shouldn't ignore "Taught Electrical Engineering" we should look for ways around it. Its taught because it works 99% of the time. The other 1% is discarded as outlyers.
CC
It works only because it is 1/2 of the truth. This is used because if they used the WHOLE truth we could have energy for free. 1/2 the path means the power company can keep selling you electricity, if it was allowed to travel its whole path it would recycle and not end.
Quote from: Hope on August 22, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
It works only because it is 1/2 of the truth. This is used because if they used the WHOLE truth we could have energy for free. 1/2 the path means the power company can keep selling you electricity, if it was allowed to travel its whole path it would recycle and not end.
you want to share with the rest of the class?
what works?
what truth?
what path?
how do you know this?
fritznien
Quote from: Hope on August 22, 2011, 12:41:08 AM
It works only because it is 1/2 of the truth. This is used because if they used the WHOLE truth we could have energy for free. 1/2 the path means the power company can keep selling you electricity, if it was allowed to travel its whole path it would recycle and not end.
There is just too much paranoia out there and some people always blaming things on the Men in Black.....
@Hope
Without a doubt there are corporate interests at work. Without a doubt the government is in cahoots with Corporate America, Without a doubt corporations buy up patents and shelve the projects. Back in the late 70's early 80's I investigated hundreds of fuel saving devices. the patents were almost all owned by one company. Shell Canada.
So I agree, greed is at play here, like anywhere else in the world. But the level of paranoia that surrounds OU is sometimes depressing. I watched a video by a poster here on OU where he stated "Some government man altered my video to make it look like I bumped it" he was talking about a smot. What a joke. If he has the original video that proves the one on youtube was doctored he should upload it here. He won't because he made it up. (Like his claims of OU).
This level of paranoia only sends the wrong message. No one is getting bumped off. no-one is being silenced. good ideas may be bought out, but that's about it.
You would have to consider the whole scientific community the world over is in on the sham. And that's simply not possible. The government has enough trouble keeping the smallest of secrets. To believe they could cover up OU for what now amounts to hundreds of years is delusional.
If OU was so easy then it would be with us now, It's not and the majority of science believes its impossible and therefore not worth any effort, Not because they are told to cover it up.
As fritznien implies. Where is your proof?
CC
EDIT:
Can you explain the existence of overunity.com and other sites like it? If the Gov was so good at covering up, surely these sites would not exist. Why take the risk of the "truth" getting out?
CC
It is this easy:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc
And you may have changed your OU name to cover your negative comment history, but ChrisC a troll is a troll is a troll.
CC
Will you post your definition of what O.U. is?
Sorry Hope you must have misinterpreted me or you are avoiding answering my question. The proof I require was that government forces are covering up the truth. not the possibility of OU. Was that a deliberate misinterpretation by you, a way to derail the question?
To answer the OU question put by Brian.
OU is overunity. more output power than input power such that the power taken out of the unit can be fed back into the unit to keep it running. All OU devices by their very nature are PMM's.
Thanes Perepiteia is an exciting advance. but is it OU? I have yet to see any proof of it. It's exciting because it has unexplained properties. These properties may lead to ou if they have not achieved it already.
I have been reviewing the thread on BiTT over the last couple of days, no one in that thread has reported success in recreating Thanes device, though many have tried.
Calling someone a troll because they don't share your beliefs is in itself the work of a troll. its an attempt to illicit an argument from someone. Trolls don't respond with logic and care. They usually take something you say and twist it to another meaning.
Once again what proof do you have that government forces are trying to suppress knowledge? My proof they are not, is the very conversation you and I are having it would not be allowed in a totally repressive society!
CC
P.S. I am here because I believe OU is possible, No reason to be here otherwise. Especially when people attack you personally so readily. Say something they don't agree with and all of a sudden you are a cheat a liar and a troll. Probably many good people have just walked away because of the way they have been treated here. When logical argument is lacking, personal attacks take the forefront.
I am certainly not here to educate you Chris on what you already know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act
da! AND if any of you new people think MIB don't suppress Over Unity devices do some research on other working but now MISSING OU devices. HUNDREDS!! There have been so many reported on, then suppressed then shelved then the inventors missing or nuts or dead or discredited. Wake up and just look at THIS forums articles about it or other articles on other energy forums. Understanding your lack of seeing for yourselves is part of media control we all were subjected to over the years. Seek and ye shall find....out! and Chris that newbie account you just started to back yourself up is not fooling anyone willing to check out the real energy scene.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc
This is one way to thwart energy companies that has PROVEN results. As does the Gabriel device.
Chris where is your proof of ANY COP>1 device, oh that's right your not allowed to really help us I bet. We here believe in finding out what does and does not work and building upon that. Learn and build. Everyone click on CC's profile and look at all his comments to see what he is really doing here.
So your proof is there is no proof therefore it must have happened.
I know of the invention secrecy act. I am well aware of what it means. I am sure there are many weapons of warfare we aren't aware of 'yet'.
The missing inventions you speak of? where are they then. if you know of them they are not missing, are they?
Sadly people grow old and die for various reasons. To claim they have been murdered as part of a coverup is well sad. There is no proof of such claims just gossip and innuendo, If someone dies in the OU community, they must have been murdered! I mean really its obvious isn't it.
I come from a family of conspiratorialists, There is nothing you can say that would surprise me. Most of my life I have heard conspiracy theories. But I got wise and broke the cycle. Because in the end you just become like my father, 80 years old always so worried that something bad is being done he never enjoyed life. He was always looking for proof that the commies were coming or that world banking was about to collapse due to deliberate manipulation. In the end he has nothing but the worry. It killed my mother the stress of him always warning people of impending doom, so now he doesn't even have his wife (and his kids just tolerate him). I am not going to end up like that. You on the other hand are welcome to it.
On to Perepiteia...
Did you read this, or are you only interested in hearing the bits you want to believe?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_Difference_Inc#Nothing_more_than_a_hysteresis_brake
Basically what its saying is the peripitea device is an inefficient induction motor. By adding the coil its efficiency increases and therefore it spins faster. had the device been designed properly to start with adding the coil would result in no net gain.
Now I am not going to say it doesn't work. But I am not going to say it does work because I see no proof, only claims and counter claims.
To prove it works all Thane needs to do is hookup the output to the input, disconnect any external sources and let it run.
I have yet to see a device do that. Please point me to one if you know of one, I would dearly love to replicate it. There is nothing I would love more than to prove the law of conservation of energy can be bypassed.
You are trying to drag this thread off topic. I started it in the vain attempt at helping people avoid common mistakes, so they can concentrate on what really might work. But it seems someone is intent on derailing that. They perhaps want to make sure that confusion continues, they want to make it sound like they support OU while at all times attempting to prevent any cohesion and logical progression, always nudging people in the wrong direction.
For my part I was only trying to help. But I guess some people have it all under control and don't want any help. Well that's OK I don't mind at all.
From now on I am only going to respond to on topic posts.
CC
CC
I have a different definition of O.U.
My definition of O.U. is any work I can get done with out doing the work myself.
The biggest mistake is to use the wrong definition.
Quote from: brian334 on August 23, 2011, 09:06:51 AM
CC
I have a different definition of O.U.
My definition of O.U. is any work I can get done with out doing the work myself.
The biggest mistake is to use the wrong definition.
by your definition the dog bringing in the paper is OU.
fritznien
That’s right.
Isn’t that what we are all trying to figure out, how to get something other then are selves to do our work for us?
Machine or beast does not matter to me.
OU Mathematical definition
Pout / Pin > 0
Hmm
Dog as OU
Dout = fetch paper
Din = Buy dog + Buy food + Feed dog + Pat dog + Remove used food
Dout / Din < 0
Sorry I can't see a dog as OU
CC
Common mistake in OU ?
Power Factor phenomena, Transformer ratio, measurement error and highly distorted sine waves are common mistake...
Now I will be very skeptic with gravitational wheels, and other magnetic motor using only permanent magnet...
Big chance to OU, non linear phenomena, coils ore capacitor, unusual design...
Chris I am mistaken, you are NOT the same person that was trolling at OU. EVERYONE I made a mistake, sorry. Chris please forgive my mistake I was only trying to protect the forum from an invasive troll.
LOL Peter L is not correct in this case. The motor principles has led to the Gabriel device, so its contribution is immense.
Quote from: Hope on August 24, 2011, 12:18:44 PM
Chris I am mistaken, you are NOT the same person that was trolling at OU. EVERYONE I made a mistake, sorry. Chris please forgive my mistake I was only trying to protect the forum from an invasive troll.
Thank you Hope for correcting the error, I do appreciate it.
@SchubertReijiMaigo I am not sure about purely magnetic motors. I do understand what you are saying. but I have a design I am currently working on which uses only magnets and a spring, So I guess its not purely magnetic. But because its my idea it must work mustn't it!
I do wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your statement, if you are right about the magnet only motor well then I will probably have to give up. At least till another idea strikes me :)
This gotcha is the one that I see the most in forums like this and on websites all over the place.
Belief, or "Wishing it was so doesn't make it so"
Mistake: Believing what someone says because its what you want to believe.
Reason: When someone says something that is "in line" with your own belief its very tempting to take what they say at face value. It doesn't matter what claims someone makes. You owe it to yourself to do due diligence. You may find that the person made a mistake or may even be deliberately defrauding people, as is so often the case. Unless you check it out thoroughly yourself or refer to someone you trust to be able to do the same you can never be sure.
On the point of who to trust. Just because someone has a title doesn't mean they are experienced in the area under question. mathematicians, physicists and engineers can be fooled too. especially if they are not experienced in the area of the invention.
Never ask a butcher advice about buying diamonds, While he may be an expert in meat. you have no idea what their qualifications are in diamonds. Paraphrased from the book "the Richest Man in Babylon" (I think it was that book).
CC
Chris you said:
"I have been reviewing the thread on BiTT over the last couple of days, no one in that thread has reported success in recreating Thanes device, though many have tried."
Maybe you did not read to end http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7833 ?
I made a working trafo replication but to me useless as such because of low power. Just tear down some ready made trafos and connect as shown in page 18 and you will see some OU. Amount of extra energy is related to surface area used to divert backward EMF. If you read on there is more coming, MFT version.
Trick is to make the backward EMF work for you, not against you. Electric current itself is already OU, you put in power to create current and it can do work for you. With that current comes magnetic field. That can induce more current in another wire that can do work. That creates another magnetic field and so on. You only need to make such an arrangement to make use of this. After all, backward EMF is the same stuff but only in opposite direction and direction depends on where you look at it. I am currently working on that kind of trafo at idea level as I dont have access to parts I would like to use.
Off topic post sorry about that but felt I need to point direction. OU has been right under our noses, but perhaps the term is misunderstood. Better term would be energy recycling.
Jack have right, you can look also at the Grabriel/Tesla device, with a potentail working replication (measurement was made with bulbs, so next is increase output and DSO).
I have always believed that BEMF is energy like EMF but in opposed phase like to: Action --> OPPOSITE Reaction law.
But in special config you can have the reaction HELPING the action, then OU...
Tesla's/ Gabriel, BITT and other like is Reactionless transformer type...
Tend to prove reactionless phenomena... (Tend to proof antigravity and UFO propulsion ?)
@SchubertReijiMaigo You lost me with UFO's. Sorry but I rate UFO's (non man made that is) with the tooth fairy. I don't say I don't believe in life in the universe because I don't not believe in that, but visitors to this planet. Until I get absolute proof, you are better off trying to convince me God exists.
@Jack I did read your comments on that thread, sorry If I misunderstood but I did not see you achieved OU. just you got some power out. without real power readings it's not possible to tell.
If you truly got OU then the battle is won, you only need to provide the replicable data so anyone with decent ability can replicate it.
If a device is made that proves even 0.0001% overunity it will cause mainstream physics to meltdown. So don't dismiss what you did as unusable. It is most definitely useable.
Maybe it doesn't have enough energy to run your saw. but if its OU then it has enough power to turn the world on its head.
CC
I put in some figures, is there something wrong with them ? I agree I did not measure it at first but then curiosity got me and I bought true RMS meter and measured current in both sides. Also you dont need a meter to tell that light is brighter on the other side, or ?
It is difficult to measure voltage because voltage increases as power is taken. When there was no load voltage was around 110 volts and with load it increases maybe close to 200. I did not measure with different loads, results most likely different. There is a way though, if I would put a third secondary coil on either side and leave it unconnected I could then measure voltage that is going on other cores. I did this with 3d version as it was easier but it did not give out more power because the magnetic flux got divided between vertical cores. Every vertical core amplified every other vertical core and it did show the effect of backward EMF amplification nicely.
Gabby seems to have made progress too though its operating principle is different. So OU is alive and kicking.
Are we talking about this post?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7833.msg297965#msg297965 reply #288
You admitted the lights are misleading. Yes they are.
You made assumptions about the output voltage. and from those assumptions you derived a power output which you stated you needed a true RMS wattmeter to test.
Please read SchubertReijiMaigo's post about distorted sine waves above. Also read my Believing gotcha. The electric saw will turn your output into absolute mush. getting a reading from that as a load is just about impossible.
I do admit I read a lot of posts from that thread and maybe am suffering from comment fatigue, but I don't see your posts as confirming OU. Having said that I believe the Than BiTT is a very interesting concept, But I am not in a position to make a determination either way. My transformer theory was always weak and over the years a lot of rust has accumulated as well.
Hopefully I will be able to do some testing myself soon enough.
In the meant time what you can do is get a bridge rectifier, largish high voltage capacitor and a 1% or better tolerance load resistor. rectify the output through the bridge rectifier (full wave) put the cap across the output, the bigger the better and put your load resistor across that. make sure the voltage derived is clean DC. You'll need a CRO to check the output doesn't contain spikes if it does you may need to clean it up with an rf choke. Then measure the voltage across the resistor. Simple ohms law will give you the current and therefore the power dissipated. That will get you a good reading on the output. If you really are getting an OU of > 1.5 then this will give you a fairly good reading. if your output is closer to 1 then it may not be accurate enough.
I quickly looked through your posts to see if I missed another important post, but couldn't see one so please point me to a more concise post if I missed it.
If you are going to present figures you should present it in a tabular form. probably in an excel spreadsheet with tests performed conditions present and results received. sprinkling them through your post is hard to read and very unconvincing.
CC
QuotePlease read SchubertReijiMaigo's post about distorted sine waves above. Also read my Believing gotcha. The electric saw will turn your output into absolute mush. getting a reading from that as a load is just about impossible.
This is why is better to measure with TRMS or DSO, because it include ugly distorted sinewave, but TRMS cost around 600$ !!!
That is correct post. I realise now that I should have done measurements with light bulb also. But as the COP is so low did not bother to do that. It was enough that it proved the concept and I learned from it to continue.
Agree that it is not very scientific to spread numbers, but intention was not to convince anyone, just to report some results. This is bird seed compared to gabby for instance, no sense to replicate my version unless using better material.
What kind of stuff are you going to build, does it happen to have nanoperm toroids involved ? I might have couple of things you could try with them. Simplest would be to use two toroids and connect them together using intermediate coil. Then connect that to output of your secondary in parallel in correct way and see what happens. Backward EMF should now get cancelled so primary would run as if nothing is happening, see Mavs response, he did some tests. I think there is even better way but it needs a long explanation which I am trying to get done.
hmm, my meter costed only 50 Eur, BST model BS1704
I have read manuals it seems that only the voltage is TRMS not current...
That can induce measurement error in your test, if your trafo is slightly saturated all your current measurement will be false !!! Beware at this !!!
For me I was investigated for a Metrix PX110 TRMS wattsmeter or DSO...
But I don't if DSO can calculate and display automatically all value especially the real power even in case of distorted sine wave...