http://www.freeenergytruth.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/steorn-orbo-power-cube-demo-from-friday.html?=1
Profitis mentioned this on the Rosch thread ..
thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on May 06, 2015, 01:27:21 PM
http://www.freeenergytruth.blogspot.com.au/2015/05/steorn-orbo-power-cube-demo-from-friday.html?=1
Profitis mentioned this on the Rosch thread ..
thx
Chet
Steorn have racked-up quite a history of claims and promises that they never delivered on in addition to outright lies. Unveiling a supposed energy miracle at the local pub is classic Steorn.
The box itself is large enough to hold a whole lot of lithium cells.
Could probably fit a couple of hamsters in that box...
;D
Gaia has already collected up all the aqua-gerbils from pet stores across the EU.
From an article at e-catworld:
"We don't know much about the Orbo power cube, but Shaun McCarthy has mentioned that Steorn is developing a 'never-die' battery using its Orbo technology. In an interview (http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/images/steorn_article.pdf) with the Sunday Business Post earlier this year, McCarthy said they were developing am Orbo battery to be used in mobile phones: "The battery is very unique — You don't put any energy in, it's what they call a closed loop. Literally the battery is self-powered. It's a 'never die' battery. It'll drain itself, but it will recharge itself in two seconds. "
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015/05/06/announcement-demonstration-of-steorns-never-die-orbo-power-cube-battery-in-dublin-pub-starting-friday/
Here it is :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu3i33pP2P0
Why do they think anyone would believe them after the first fiasco?
Bill
'Why do they think anyone would believe them after the first fiasco?'
Because lotsa people believed them AFTER the first fiasco
The Electric Orbo Motor was a real cool motor, as it has no Generator effect ! It is just a motor ! As the 2 toroidal coils are 180 degrees out of phase in series, when the permanent magnet axis turns, it does NOT induce any current into the toroidal coils ! So it has NO Counter EMF !
So it has no backdrag ! Here is an a bit advanced version of it, the Thomas Motor. It only needs to be build 10 times bigger and with more coils to get overunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI)
Here he compares the Thomas Motor versus the Orbo Motor version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsVPwKp56Zw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsVPwKp56Zw)
I think the new cube is probably a solid state device without rotating things inside,
probably some kind of crystal battery with a Joule Thief type DC to DC inverter circuit in it...
Well, we will see.
Regards, Stefan.
I reckon the battery is the exact same principal as orbo except solidstate.probably coupled to a regular rechargeable bat inside the cage.
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 09, 2015, 06:55:20 AM
The Electric Orbo Motor was a real cool motor, as it has no Generator effect ! It is just a motor ! As the 2 toroidal coils are 180 degrees out of phase in series, when the permanent magnet axis turns, it does NOT induce any current into the toroidal coils ! So it has NO Counter EMF !
So it has no backdrag ! Here is an a bit advanced version of it, the Thomas Motor. It only needs to be build 10 times bigger and with more coils to get overunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI)
That is not entirely correct. The motor does exhibit BEMF and it is visible in the oscilloscope traces if you know how to look for it. What the motor does not show is the kind of voltage ripple on the top of the pulses that one normally associates with BEMF. The BEMF affects the rise and fall time of the pulses and has almost no effect at the top because when the core is saturated at the top of the pulse the BEMF constant is very small.
Quote from: MarkE on May 09, 2015, 10:36:24 AM
That is not entirely correct. The motor does exhibit BEMF and it is visible in the oscilloscope traces if you know how to look for it. What the motor does not show is the kind of voltage ripple on the top of the pulses that one normally associates with BEMF. The BEMF affects the rise and fall time of the pulses and has almost no effect at the top because when the core is saturated at the top of the pulse the BEMF constant is very small.
You don´t understand !
As the 2 coils are 180 degrees out of phase placed in series, all induction from the magnet cancels out !
So this way this motor has NO GENERATOR EFFECT !
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 10, 2015, 10:45:31 PM
You don´t understand !
As the 2 coils are 180 degrees out of phase placed in series, all induction from the magnet cancels out !
So this way this motor has NO GENERATOR EFFECT !
Stefan, actually I do understand, and there is plenty of generator effect. The BEMF "constant" is variable in the device demonstrated at Waterways. As the rotor magnet approaches the toroid core, the core winding is powered so that it ultimately saturates as the PM makes its pass by. The work required to saturate the core is influenced by that moving coil: IE the PM induces in the toroid just like any other motor. However, the time when this occurs is dominately the power on phase of the toroid winding. The BEMF alters the timing from what it would be without the rotor approaching the toroid. When the battery manages to saturate the toroid, it reduces the inductance and BEMF constant by multiple orders of magnitude. With the right instrumentation set-up the BEMF can still be measured even when the core is saturated.
Stefan,
what do you say to this? If there is no BEMF the basis of physics must be
wrong somewhere.
John
I think It's A Joule thief..but many selenoid for generating self induction..transistor,ic,batry,selenoid,and cpctor.
Quote from: minnie on May 11, 2015, 03:32:38 AM
Stefan,
what do you say to this? If there is no BEMF the basis of physics must be
wrong somewhere.
John
Nothing to worry about, John. Just a typical case of nitpicking, physics rules are still intact !
Stefan is looking from a PRACTICAL viewpoint
Mark is looking at it from a ABSOLUTE viewpoint
Stefan & Mark are both correct, just depends what you allow as your descriptive tolerance between the lines.
Red_Sunset
Quote from: MarkE on May 10, 2015, 11:03:20 PM
Stefan, actually I do understand, and there is plenty of generator effect. The BEMF "constant" is variable in the device demonstrated at Waterways. As the rotor magnet approaches the toroid core, the core winding is powered so that it ultimately saturates as the PM makes its pass by. The work required to saturate the core is influenced by that moving coil: IE the PM induces in the toroid just like any other motor. However, the time when this occurs is dominately the power on phase of the toroid winding. The BEMF alters the timing from what it would be without the rotor approaching the toroid. When the battery manages to saturate the toroid, it reduces the inductance and BEMF constant by multiple orders of magnitude. With the right instrumentation set-up the BEMF can still be measured even when the core is saturated.
Would not the current also be very high without BEMF?,as BEMF is the voltage that apposes the applied voltage. I mean,we do have induction within the toriod's,so there must be BEMF. BEMF is what reduces the current draw within inductor's,so no BEMF = higher current draw,as the voltage across the inductor would be higher.
Now,what we need is a higher BEMF than the applied voltage-->would that mean we have a negative resistance?.
The doughnuts have no north or south poles thus where are you going to get your back-emfs.nowhere.
Has Hepaheat gone cold??
Quote from: profitis on May 11, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
The doughnuts have no north or south poles thus where are you going to get your back-emfs.nowhere.
Profitis,
An interesting observation, I think we need to differentiate between inductive and mechanical manifestations.
The existence of poles can manifest itself in indirect ways, attraction= increased permeability, repulsion= non availability of permeability (a distortion of the field seeking out permeability)
As Mark stated earlier, a saturated core is equal to a air core, this might be not 100% true,. I would venture to say that no additional field strength can be accepted by the core (it is full), this would behave like a repulsion to an approaching magnet because its field will become distorted by the saturated core
Magnet behavior is not necessary simple black or white, the natural tendency is attraction.
Red_Sunset
Quote from: profitis on May 11, 2015, 07:45:00 AM
The doughnuts have no north or south poles thus where are you going to get your back-emfs.nowhere.
Where there is induction,there is BEMF-->and we know toroid transformers have induction-and thus a magnetic field. There is no north and south.
True true mr sunset we can also look at the thermodynamics in the doughnuts for simplification: 1)domain allignment= heat to the ambient.2)distortion of domains = battery work.3) domain collapse= heat from the ambient.heat traffic to the ambient and from the ambient is almost completely decoupled from our battery's chemical combustion.our only expense is field cancellation.we're trafficking ambient flow of heat with a switch basicly.
Quote tinman'Where there is induction,there is BEMF-->and we
know toroid transformers have induction-and thus a
magnetic field. There is no north and south.'
Yes this is the only work that we contribute to the system.this work is coming from the battery's chemicals and its only function is to de-couple fields ie act as traffic cop for heat flow to and from ambient
Quote from: profitis on May 11, 2015, 09:10:46 AM
True true mr sunset we can also look at the thermodynamics in the doughnuts for simplification: 1)domain allignment= heat to the ambient.2)distortion of domains = battery work.3) domain collapse= heat from the ambient.heat traffic to the ambient and from the ambient is almost completely decoupled from our battery's chemical combustion.our only expense is field cancellation.we're trafficking ambient flow of heat with a switch basicly.
Profitis, Tinman,
With the focus on magnetic attraction & repulsion to toroid core and induction therein, the Steorn model relies on attraction to the core and repulsion beyond dead center by making the core unattractive to the receding magnet (core saturation). Beyond TDC, the core does not just become invisible, it will actively repulsed by disallowing its core space to be penetrated by the rotor magnet field. (no 2 magnetic fields can occupy the same point space, saturation will make sure of that)
In the approach phase, normal generator action will take place, let it be assymetrical (field entering left and right quadrant of the toroid), but the coil is disconnected there is no BEMF.
In the exit phase, if the chosen toroid polarity is chosen correctly, the direction of the coil field quadrant and he receding magnet field could greatly enhance each other. The receding field is overridden by an increasing coil field into saturation, (motor-generator Bemf effect) since the magnet field effect on the toroid is asymmetrical, I would guess that BEMF would be small if noticed at all
Heat effects and losses we can overlook to keep the basic understanding simple.
Red_Sunset
No, not repulsion, only reduced attraction when the toroid coil is "turned on" as the rotor magnet passes its closest approach, and even that is a small percentage reduction. Yet this is enough to make the rotor accelerate strongly. Current direction and magnet polarity don't matter for this "core effect".
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 11, 2015, 10:22:48 AM
No, not repulsion, only reduced attraction when the toroid coil is "turned on" as the rotor magnet passes its closest approach, and even that is a small percentage reduction. Yet this is enough to make the rotor accelerate strongly. Current direction and magnet polarity don't matter for this "core effect".
TK,
Up to the TDC position point, the rotor magnetic field was using the toroid core as a preferable (low) reluctance path.
At TDC, the toroid is energized to saturation, this expels the rotor magnet field out of the toroid core. This distorts the rotor field into a shape that excludes the toroid core, now this modified rotor field shape applies a certain pressure onto the surrounding that forced it into this distortion. (this being the toroid) and therefore this pressure must result into a force, a repulsive force between rotor magnet and toroid core. Or so I would think.
Red_Sunset
Quote from: MarkE on May 10, 2015, 11:03:20 PM
The work required to saturate the core is influenced by that moving coil:
There is no moving coil !
Just a moving permanent magnet !
Quote
IE the PM induces in the toroid just like any other motor.
No, as the 2 toroidal coils on the ferrite cores are place 180 degrees out of phase in series !
Thus ALL INDUCTION by the moving permanent magnet is just cancelled out !
No Generator effect at all !
Have again a look at the enhanced version, the Thomas Motor that explains it well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI
Stefan,
as it speeds up the current does drop, that should give you a clue-
ie. the back voltage is limiting current.
John.
Quote from: tinman on May 11, 2015, 07:18:00 AM
Would not the current also be very high without BEMF?,as BEMF is the voltage that apposes the applied voltage. I mean,we do have induction within the toriod's,so there must be BEMF. BEMF is what reduces the current draw within inductor's,so no BEMF = higher current draw,as the voltage across the inductor would be higher.
Now,what we need is a higher BEMF than the applied voltage-->would that mean we have a negative resistance?.
There are two BEMFs in the Steorn motor: The BEMF of the toroid coils themselves in isolation, and the BEMF from the rotating magnets. The power source, Steorn's big battery connects to the toroid windings much longer than their L/R time constant fully saturating those windings. At the same time that the battery builds-up current in the windings, BEMF from the moving magnet resists the current build-up. The combined effects are seen in the current versus time oscilloscope plots. When the toroid saturates, the BEMF constant falls like a rock, which is why the ripple which is really there does not show up on a quantization limited digital oscilloscope.
Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 11, 2015, 08:18:30 AM
Profitis,
An interesting observation, I think we need to differentiate between inductive and mechanical manifestations.
The existence of poles can manifest itself in indirect ways, attraction= increased permeability, repulsion= non availability of permeability (a distortion of the field seeking out permeability)
As Mark stated earlier, a saturated core is equal to a air core, this might be not 100% true,. I would venture to say that no additional field strength can be accepted by the core (it is full), this would behave like a repulsion to an approaching magnet because its field will become distorted by the saturated core
Magnet behavior is not necessary simple black or white, the natural tendency is attraction.
Red_Sunset
A fully saturated core exhibits a permeability of 1.0, the same as a vacuum or effectively air. Additional field builds just fine, but at a rate that can be 1000's of times smaller per ampere turn per meter than unsaturated.
Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 11, 2015, 10:55:44 AM
TK,
Up to the TDC position point, the rotor magnetic field was using the toroid core as a preferable (low) reluctance path.
At TDC, the toroid is energized to saturation, this expels the rotor magnet field out of the toroid core. This distorts the rotor field into a shape that excludes the toroid core, now this modified rotor field shape applies a certain pressure onto the surrounding that forced it into this distortion. (this being the toroid) and therefore this pressure must result into a force, a repulsive force between rotor magnet and toroid core. Or so I would think.
Red_Sunset
TK is correct. When the magnet is approaching the toroid the current is off and the toroid acts like a chunk of iron, but due to the resistivity of the ferrite without any appreciable eddy currents. As the magnet gets closer, the current is switched on, ultimately saturating the toroid core, and massively reducing the attractive force. Momentum then carries the rotor past the toroid. The current is switched off, and the toroid comes out of saturation, ready for the next rotor magnet. The field developed in the toroid has only a small but non-zero component aligned to the direction of travel of the nearest rotor magnet at any time. It is if you will a "gated SMOT".
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 11, 2015, 11:22:27 AM
There is no moving coil !
Just a moving permanent magnet !
My bad for typing "coil" when I meant magnet.
Quote
No, as the 2 toroidal coils on the ferrite cores are place 180 degrees out of phase in series !
Thus ALL INDUCTION by the moving permanent magnet is just cancelled out !
No Generator effect at all !
No, that is not what is going on. The primary effect going on here is as described in TK's Orbette videos: core effect. Saturation of the cores changes their permeability and therefore magnetic attraction. Higher attraction approaching and lower attraction leaving leads to net directional torque. These are a variation on a solenoid. And if one cares to look solenoids exhibit BEMF.
Quote
Have again a look at the enhanced version, the Thomas Motor that explains it well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su-v45BsFpI
That motor operates from leakage flux. It is quite different and much more powerful than the Steorn core effect motor.
Yes, I agree, but as the 2 toroidal cores are 180 degrees out of phase and put in series there
just can not be any induction from the magnets !
Tell me, how the induction should work, if they are all positioned symmetrically !
In each coil will be induced for example a positive half wave when the magnet passes by
and as they are put in series, but 180 degrees out of phase, the 2nd coil will have an inverted half wave,
so the induction voltages will just cancel out.
Can we agree on this ?
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 11, 2015, 02:13:11 PM
Yes, I agree, but as the 2 toroidal cores are 180 degrees out of phase and put in series there
just can not be any induction from the magnets !
Tell me, how the induction should work, if they are all positioned symmetrically !
In each coil will be induced for example a positive half wave when the magnet passes by
and as they are put in series, but 180 degrees out of phase, the 2nd coil will have an inverted half wave,
so the induction voltages will just cancel out.
Can we agree on this ?
Each of the toroidal cores has an associated BEMF. Externally the coils may be wired so that the BEMFs buck, in which case large current spikes can result. Ways to determine whether or not induction occurs include: Open a winding and measure the induced voltage if any. Measure heat production. Measure voltage right at each coil.
The voltages sum to zero at the right external measurement point. But if you measure right across each coil, you will see a voltage difference.
Just so you know... I did literally _weeks_ of full time work, winding many toroids of different materials and measuring the force vs. distance between the cores and a magnet mounted on a digital force gauge fixture with micrometer positioning control, with and without current flowing in the windings. For every material I tested, the difference in magnet attraction from an unpowered core, to a fully saturated core, is relatively small. There is _no repulsion_ and I don't think anyone, looking at the actual graphed data, would say that the effect is a "large difference". It does not depend on either the polarity of the current or the polarity of the magnet when the coil is properly wound; the effect is strictly due to the saturation of the core.
I can't find the graphed data at the moment, but here's a photo of the test rig, showing a mounted toroid, and the digital force gauge with micrometer positioning adjustment. See below. The current source is out of the frame. For several levels of current for each toroid, I used the micrometer to bring the magnet (on the end of the white Delrin bar) approaching to and receding from the toroid, and I plotted the resulting force vs. distance in sub-millimeter distance increments. So each toroid produced a family of graphs, where one could see how the force vs. distance graph changed with different current levels. In this manner it is easy to see when the core is fully saturated (no more change in the f vs. d graph with increasing current) and it is easy to see the actual magnitude of the change in force vs. current (ie saturation level) of the core.
The findings from all of this work can be summarized as follows:
1. The Core Effect is real
2. There is no dependence on current direction or magnet polarity
3. The Core Effect is _small_
4. Even a _small_ Core Effect is enough to produce rapid acceleration of a rotor and high eventual speeds
I also did comprehensive power dissipation tests by measuring run-down times on a rotor whose rotational moment of inertia was known. This work generated hundreds of feet of chart-recorder traces and allowed precise measurements of the _actual_ power that a typical Orbo-type Core Effect rotor required to turn at a given RPM. The results of this work can be summarized as follows:
1. The actual power dissipation of an Orbo rotor is a small fraction of the electrical power that must be delivered to the toroidal coils in order to produce the rotation.
2. Steorn's measurements showing net electrical energy _gain_ from their Orbo resulted from improper calibration of their differential voltage and clamp-on current probes, specifically in what is called "probe skew"; that is, the probes had different time constants that were not corrected for when used by Steorn in their demonstrations. Many thousands of dollars worth of probes, in combination with oscilloscopes that cost more than my house is worth...yielded garbage, or perhaps were deliberately misused by Steorn in order to foist a false conclusion to their "target audience".
Quote MarkE'Externally the coils may be wired so that the BEMFs
buck, in which case large current spikes can result.'
Do you have any idea how cold the core will shoot immediately after this double-buck boss.very very cold.it will suck in extra heat via hysteresis.that extra heat is our juice.our resonant up-conversion
Okay,so TK and MarkE basically agree, that we see no induction coming from the 2 toroidal coils
when we measure at the power supply and we just rotate the permanent magnet rotor.
So this motor has seen from the power supply side on, no generator effect.
So it is a motor without a generator effect.
If it can be made then overunity depends only on material and magnet
strength and design specifications.
Okay, the presented electric Orbo was probably not OU, cause it was much too small and
the cores were too lossy.
But normally, if you can build a motor that has no generator effect you can design it to
become OU, if you build it big enough a minimize the losses.
Also this motor will then have no Lenz law effect.
I also made a video of the demonstration at the pub:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z74DqJSTcLE
Regards. Stefan.
Correct mr hartiberlinIts complete assymetrical system.it is not symmetrical. a lil bit o reversability pinning and hey presto
Quote from: hartiberlin on May 11, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
Okay,so TK and MarkE basically agree, that we see no induction coming from the 2 toroidal coils
when we measure at the power supply and we just rotate the permanent magnet rotor.
So this motor has seen from the power supply side on, no generator effect.
Nooo, what we agree upon is that you will not easily see BEMF appear on the top of the voltage waveform because it is very small when the toroid is saturated. However, it is quite readily visible in its effect on altering the current rise time. Now that TK has his hands on a digital scope again, he can if he wants to revisit that aspect. If he wants to further see the generator effect riding on top of the saturated waveform that can be managed by changing the driver circuit to a constant current form, which only takes a couple of transistors.
Quote
So it is a motor without a generator effect.
Absolutely not. It is a very inefficient motor that hides the BEMF when casual measurements are taken. If you put a big low value resistor in parallel with a regular motor that will also disguise the BEMF and will also make the motor very inefficient.
Quote
If it can be made then overunity depends only on material and magnet
strength and design specifications.
Okay, the presented electric Orbo was probably not OU, cause it was much too small and
the cores were too lossy.
But normally, if you can build a motor that has no generator effect you can design it to
become OU, if you build it big enough a minimize the losses.
Also this motor will then have no Lenz law effect.
If you could, but you can't, and neither did Steorn.
Quote from: TinselKoala on May 11, 2015, 04:28:00 PM
Just so you know... I did literally _weeks_ of full time work, .................................
.........................., the difference in magnet attraction from an unpowered core, to a fully saturated core, is relatively small. There is _no repulsion_ and I don't think anyone, looking at the actual graphed data, would say that the effect is a "large difference". It does not depend on either the polarity of the current or the polarity of the magnet when the coil is properly wound; the effect is strictly due to the saturation of the core.
...
...............................
TK, MarkE,
Thanks for your informative test based response, my stated repulsion effect after TDC exit was the result of a reasoning process, which appears flawed by an assumption that flux density can not increase beyond full core saturation regardless of magnetic drive input into that point space.
To get to the point quickly and correct me if I am wrong, would it be safer to conclude that :
** "a solid core flux density is not limited by the saturation level of the material, rather by its property of an initial rapid increase in flux density up to the point of material saturation and thereafter the core flux density follows the same gradient as a regular air medium" **
With other words, "a core provides a "step stone" to the flux increase but will revert to an air-core gradient after saturation".
Regards, Red
Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 12, 2015, 12:42:51 AM
TK, MarkE,
Thanks for your informative test based response, my stated repulsion effect after TDC exit was the result of a reasoning process, which appears flawed by an assumption that flux density can not increase beyond full core saturation regardless of magnetic drive input into that point space.
To get to the point quickly and correct me if I am wrong, would it be safer to conclude that :
** "a solid core flux density is not limited by the saturation level of the material, rather by its property of an initial rapid increase in flux density up to the point of material saturation and thereafter the core flux density follows the same gradient as a regular air medium" **
With other words, "a core provides a "step stone" to the flux increase but will revert to a air-core after saturation".
Regards, Red
The last part of your statement is correct: A fully saturated ferromagnetic core incrementally behaves like an air core.
1. Magnetic flux increases incrementally by H
delta*mu
r*mu
0. Take an air core and apply increasing current and B goes up with H.
2. mu
r is always >= 1.0. Air is insignificantly greater than 1.0.
3. A ferromagnetic core can have an unbiased mu
r upwards of 10,000 or even more depending on the material. Common power ferrites are around 2000. Gapped cores and powdered cores have values that are much lower such as around 50.
3. A ferromagnetic core is said to saturate when mu
r falls from an initial value >> 1.0 towards 1.0.
4. In the limit, a saturated core exhibits a mu
r of 1.0.
There are materials that have very "soft" saturation curves, and others that have very "square" saturation curves. The latter are useful for making magnetic amplifier "switches".
Quote from: MarkE on May 12, 2015, 01:02:43 AM
The last part of your statement is correct: A fully saturated ferromagnetic core incrementally behaves like an air core.
...............................................................
....................................
Mark,
Thanks, understood.
I was from the belief that induction stops absolutely at full saturation, it still does but not so absolutely any longer as it appears.
Red
Quote from: Red_Sunset on May 12, 2015, 01:21:07 AM
Mark,
Thanks, understood.
I was from the belief that induction stops absolutely at full saturation, it still does but not so absolutely any longer as it appears.
Red
Air core inductors really do work.
And so it is with the solidstate version.we fiddle with the assymetry and de-coupling until we get a suitable reversibility pinning.when it costs us less to direct traffick than we get from traffick, bang,you get a errr,a uhhhmm,a slattery-battery.
Quote redsunset'Thanks, understood.
I was from the belief that induction stops absolutely at full saturation, it still does but not so absolutely any longer as it appears.
Red'
The permeability of ferrite or any metal rises drasticly when the temperature drops.have to take this into account
Btw the above temperature drops when your power-source is dis-connected