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So before i get this thread up and running, are there actually any builders still on this forum ?

Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional.

My claim--
I will show you how to build the test bed, which will become the motor it self.
I will show you how to !at the very least! double the torque of your pulse motor, without using any more power to do so.

I will also provide all the up to date stl files for those with 3D printers. ( 3D printer not needed if you don't have one)

No claims will be made here by me.
You build the motor, and you disclose the outcome.

This motor is open source, but the design remains mine.

What i will say about this !pulse motor!, is that it will use less power than any other pulse motor out there, for a given amount of torque.
You could say that this motor is !very! efficient.

Let me know if you are interested in building this !pulse! motor, and we will get the ball rolling.

Brad

Yes I am a builder. I am interested in any progress or path forward and onward.

Dave Wing

You have any vids of your current machine you speak of?

Dave Wing

I too am interested in constructing an extraordinarily efficient pulse motor using your specs, Tinman

Quote from: tinman on August 30, 2023, 12:55:41 PM
So before i get this thread up and running, are there actually any builders still on this forum ?

Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional.

My claim--
I will show you how to build the test bed, which will become the motor it self.
I will show you how to !at the very least! double the torque of your pulse motor, without using any more power to do so.

I will also provide all the up to date stl files for those with 3D printers. ( 3D printer not needed if you don't have one)

No claims will be made here by me.
You build the motor, and you disclose the outcome.

This motor is open source, but the design remains mine.

What i will say about this !pulse motor!, is that it will use less power than any other pulse motor out there, for a given amount of torque.
You could say that this motor is !very! efficient.

Let me know if you are interested in building this !pulse! motor, and we will get the ball rolling.

Brad

I may jump on it as well if you can hint how much I need to spend as I have some other projects running.  :)

Brad
Will touch base with qualified persons ( known persons not anonymous) who have
Shared their pulse motor builds and skills over the years !


With gratitude
Chet
Ps
BTW
I think you might still have a moderated ( by you ?)
Section here ?
If not ?
Can ask Stefan to set that up ?
Or whatever you're comfortable with?

Edit
Even dropped a note to Tinsel..

Quote from: adrouk on August 30, 2023, 01:59:15 PM
I may jump on it as well if you can hint how much I need to spend as I have some other projects running.  :)

The cost will be about nothing, as most parts can be sort from junk.
Example, one of the best flywheels can be had from an old exercise bike that uses the eddy current load system.
You simply cut the outer aluminum ring off it, and it already has the bearings in it.

Ok, well for those interested, we will start with the test bed.
This test bed is not a waste of time, and nor is the testing, as it will show you how to maximize the efficiency of your motor, so it is a must.
If you think you can just bypass this part of the build, and blindly throw a motor together, then you will never succeed.
And remember, this test bed will actually become your motor, so you have to make it anyway.

The test bed will actually help you in many ways, like what size torque plates to use that give the best results to the coil and magnets you are using. It will also show you the huge difference in torque between the standard pulse motor setup, and my design.

What is so different in my design, is that both the coil and PM are stationary--they don't move at all.
In the video's below, you will see i refer to !wasted torque! quite often, and the videos will explain that.
Once you watch the two below videos, you will see why my design delivers a lot more torque for a given amount of input power, to that of a standard pulse motor.

You will never achieve the desired outcome building the same designs everyone else is using.
To get a different outcome, you have to build a different machine.

So in the first video, we graph out the delivered torque from a standard pulse motor setup over 15* of rotation, at 1* intervals, using a given input power to the coil.
In the second video, we carry out the very same test, but using my design. The very same amount of power is applied to the coil, and the same 15* rotation is used. Please note that in the second test, i was using the original torque plates, and the results using the newer torque plates that were tuned for this motor, is even far better again. That is the importance of the test rig.

The results in these videos are not rigged in any way, and when you get your test rig setup, and carry out the very same tests, you will see the results for your self. Same coil, same magnet, same amount of power, but 2+ times the rotational torque. When tuned correctly, you can easily achieve 3x the rotational torque for the same power input.

A comment made on my second video--> (So I tested attraction force on a plate coming between two permanent magnets.  First with N and S facing each other then N and N facing each other. For some reason the force was Much stronger with the N to N facing each other. I thought I had a got grasp of magnet relationships but I havent figured out why this is happens, yet. By replacing one permanent mag with a coil, it seems he is getting the benefit of the stronger attraction force as the plate comes towards  N to N mags and then getting less force to pull the metal plate back, when it is leaving, because the pulse coil/mag is off !)

Please watch both video's, so as you know what is going on.
The first is of a normal type pulse motor.
The second video is of the design you will be building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQfMEJT7G1g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6KIub44uIs

Enjoy

you want to double the torque, that's simple. Use both poles. Everyone only uses one of the poles when it is a fact that both poles have equal magnetic strength. You can't have a north without a south and both are equal strengths. I have been saying this for years but yet no one has utilized it. One guy tried a few years back but built his wrong. I think it was Johnny something. He put his coil between two wheels lined with magnets which doubled the resistance.you must utilize one wheel to get best results.

 It's weird that even the Tesla motors and all others don't utilize both poles. Everyone is only using 50% of the potential. 

Quote from: nightlife on August 30, 2023, 10:02:16 PM
you want to double the torque, that's simple. Use both poles. Everyone only uses one of the poles when it is a fact that both poles have equal magnetic strength. You can't have a north without a south and both are equal strengths. I have been saying this for years but yet no one has utilized it. One guy tried a few years back but built his wrong. I think it was Johnny something. He put his coil between two wheels lined with magnets which doubled the resistance.you must utilize one wheel to get best results.

I did this years ago, and the results were no different.
By using both poles of the coil, you also double the force needed to pull the magnets away from the coil.
There are no gains this way.

And yes, i use only one single pole in my design.

Quote from: nightlife on August 30, 2023, 10:02:16 PM
you want to double the torque, that's simple. Use both poles. Everyone only uses one of the poles when it is a fact that both poles have equal magnetic strength. You can't have a north without a south and both are equal strengths. I have been saying this for years but yet no one has utilized it. One guy tried a few years back but built his wrong. I think it was Johnny something. He put his coil between two wheels lined with magnets which doubled the resistance.you must utilize one wheel to get best results.

Just so as you know, here is the video from 11 years ago.
Yes, more output torque, but a shitload of more input power required as well.
The overall result was worse than the single sided pulse motor design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Ttkol7YoA

i'm in

 Thanks for that video link. I have searched for years for someone that has done this. Not quite the same as I had in mind but results are close to what I expected. I see it has doubled the torque but it does not show that input power required has doubled using both poles opposed to one. To me, it's looks much more efficient using both rather then just one.
Another thing I noticed is that he is not switching the poles of the coil when the different poles of the magnets pass which would cause a resistance requiring more power. Over time, the core would become a magnet depending on what material is used as a core.
My idea was either a horseshoe style or 2 rims both lined with magnets rotating around a coil placed between the rotating rims. Other ideas included different shapes of magnets.
Regardless, that video proves most of what I stated to be true and I am betting that a better design would prove everything else I have said is true.
I can't afford the time it takes to build anything right now. I seriously don't have the time. I keep hoping that someone else would do it so I can quit thinking about it.
It just doesn't make sense to not use both poles of magnets or both poles of a electro magnet field.

Measure the pull and energy used with one pole side Then measure the same with both poles used. I bet both pulls will be equal or close to it and energy used would not double and would be close to equal if not equal.
Both poles of a magnetic field are always equal. One can never be stronger or weaker then the other.

Quote from: nightlife on August 30, 2023, 11:29:09 PM
Thanks for that video link. I have searched for years for someone that has done this. Not quite the same as I had in mind but results are close to what I expected. I see it has doubled the torque but it does not show that input power required has doubled using both poles opposed to one. To me, it's looks much more efficient using both rather then just one.
Another thing I noticed is that he is not switching the poles of the coil when the different poles of the magnets pass which would cause a resistance requiring more power. Over time, the core would become a magnet depending on what material is used as a core.
My idea was either a horseshoe style or 2 rims both lined with magnets rotating around a coil placed between the rotating rims. Other ideas included different shapes of magnets.
Regardless, that video proves most of what I stated to be true and I am betting that a better design would prove everything else I have said is true.
I can't afford the time it takes to build anything right now. I seriously don't have the time. I keep hoping that someone else would do it so I can quit thinking about it.
It just doesn't make sense to not use both poles of magnets or both poles of a electro magnet field.

That video is my video, and that is the motor i built.
I can tell you now that around 3 times the power was needed to that of a single sided pulse motor.
You may think you would only need the same amount of power, and get double the torque, but it does not work that way.
You introduce much more eddy current loss. You also need twice the force to remove both magnets from the core, instead of just the one magnet. In fact, i cannot think of any electric motor that uses both sides of the coil. One side normally sits against the steel housing of the motor, and loops back around to the opposite pole.

Quote from: nightlife on August 30, 2023, 11:47:18 PM
Measure the pull and energy used with one pole side Then measure the same with both poles used. I bet both pulls will be equal or close to it and energy used would not double and would be close to equal if not equal.
Both poles of a magnetic field are always equal. One can never be stronger or weaker then the other.

Been there, and done that.
What you are forgetting, is that it will take twice the pull to pull 2 magnets away from the core, instead of just one magnet.

You can have a magnet with say the north pole small and compressed, which results in a very strong field, while the south pole is spread out and weak.

With a iron core I can see that being a issue but not with a air coil.

The field is exactly the same strength regardless of how it is manipulated. The compressed is mathematically equal to the spread out field. Compressing both at equal measurements equals equal strengths between both measurements.
Now think what would happen if his design used 1 or more pairs of half moon magnets. Then powered the coil before field contact, then shut off before center and then powered back on but with switched polarities and so on. The trigger would require 2 magnets per half moon. On then off between and back on with reversed polarity then off until the next and polarities switching with each trigger magnet. This concept is using his design but just modified.
I have others in mind but his design modified as stated would pretty much have the same results as any other using this concept.
If using a style north of south pole, the trigger would need to power before magnet and shut off before center if it's set up as attraction or powered after center if set up to repel. This design would require a horseshoe coil using one rim fitted with magnets or a coil between 2 rims lined with magnets like said before.

 

Quoteauthor=nightlife link=topic=19546.msg581812#msg581812 date=1693462946

Perhaps you don't know me ?
You keep referring to !him!, and i keep telling you that !him! is me- i'm the one in the video.
I have been designing and building pulse motors for the last 20 years, and have probably built and tested any design you could come up with.

QuoteNow think what would happen if his design used 1 or more pairs of half moon magnets. Then powered the coil before field contact, then shut off before center and then powered back on but with switched polarities and so on.

You just described a standard PM brushed DC motor, which works exactly like that.

QuoteThe trigger would require 2 magnets per half moon. On then off between and back on with reversed polarity then off until the next and polarities switching with each trigger magnet. This concept is using his design but just modified

No, you just use an NPN and PNP half bridge setup, which uses the standard pulse motor setup-1 magnet for the trigger coil.

Anyway, this is off topic some what.
Here in this thread, we will be building something different to any other pulse motor, which has useful torque, but uses the same amount of power as a standard pulse motor would using the same coils and magnets.

Feel free to jump on board, and build if you like.


Brad.

Also be mindful of the moment of inertia against the size and weight of the rotor(s) too. There is a sweet spot
thay

I am sorry, I didn't realize that was your video.I had not seen it before. Nor did I realize that this thread is about a different type of pulse motor.
However, it does not take away from what I have stated and I would like to see your build modified. Maybe we can start a new thread to talk more about it or thru a pm. I will not discuss this any longer on this thread. Sorry for jumping in.

Quote from: tinman on August 30, 2023, 12:55:41 PM
...Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional....

Hi tinman. I'm very interested in your design and in building one. I watched the two videos you posted and it looks great to say the least. Looks like you are getting twice to three times the output torque and you aren't even yet using the recycled power from the collapsing electromagnet yet which you explain has unique things going on in your setup.

Only major issue with me joining the build is that I'm a super newb to say the least at what you are doing. I've only built some RC airplanes, used a scope over 10 years ago to read RC channels and that's about it. Never built a pulse motor or used transistors before. So unfortunately I would have a lot of newb questions if I joined the build which may pollute your thread. If you think it's best I sit this one out, that's ok as I hope to learn from what takes place in your build thread.

Here's an example of how newb my questions would be. I've never had an adjustable DC power source for doing this type of work so would the attached image work? It's 30V 10A for 64$. Amazon also has one that is 20A but it's 200$ which I could get if needed. Trying to keep costs down below 1k for this build if possible, until I get another job.

Quote from: MagnaProp on August 31, 2023, 06:11:27 AM
Hi tinman. I'm very interested in your design and in building one. I watched the two videos you posted and it looks great to say the least. Looks like you are getting twice to three times the output torque and you aren't even yet using the recycled power from the collapsing electromagnet yet which you explain has unique things going on in your setup.

Only major issue with me joining the build is that I'm a super newb to say the least at what you are doing. I've only built some RC airplanes, used a scope over 10 years ago to read RC channels and that's about it. Never built a pulse motor or used transistors before. So unfortunately I would have a lot of newb questions if I joined the build which may pollute your thread. If you think it's best I sit this one out, that's ok as I hope to learn from what takes place in your build thread.

Here's an example of how newb my questions would be. I've never had an adjustable DC power source for doing this type of work so would the attached image work? It's 30V 10A for 64$. Amazon also has one that is 20A but it's 200$ which I could get if needed. Trying to keep costs down below 1k for this build if possible, until I get another job.

Hi MagnaProp.

First up, that is a great power supply for the price, and would suit your needs.
I have one that is only 5amps max output, and it has done me over the years.
We are working with quite small amounts of power with these pulse motors.

Second-- There is no problem at all with you joining in on the build, as there are many people that can help you out along the way.
When i started 20 odd years ago, i didn't even know what a transistor was lol.

Third--you are not going to need any where near 1k for this build.
I would be surprised if you used more than $50.00, as most of the stuff can be had from scrap.

So yes, please join in, and learn as we go.

Here is an earlier video of the first test rig.

The later model we will be building is far les complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQtJTodw3QQ

3d printer is cooking away..  Printing out the torque plate holders now.  Using what I got on hand.. 

Don't think I can bend the torque plate metal with my skills. 

Tinman- do you think the torque plates could be made with iron powder and epoxy in a 3d printed mold?  so they can be meticulously designed to be rounded and sized exactly with the curvature of the rotor ?  And maybe cut down on those darn eddys.

I don't want to deviate too far away from your original design- so I wanted to ask also about torque plate width in respect to magnet face width and curvature.

Thanks

Just a note to Tinman ( I see it's almost 3 AM in OZ as I type)
Stefan is sorting an admin issue ATM
Hopefully this board will be set by the time the sun rises in OZ
Please remove this message once it's set up


With gratitude
Chet

Quote from: floodrod on August 31, 2023, 11:20:37 AM
3d printer is cooking away..  Printing out the torque plate holders now.  Using what I got on hand.. 

Don't think I can bend the torque plate metal with my skills. 

Tinman- do you think the torque plates could be made with iron powder and epoxy in a 3d printed mold?  so they can be meticulously designed to be rounded and sized exactly with the curvature of the rotor ?  And maybe cut down on those darn eddys.

I don't want to deviate too far away from your original design- so I wanted to ask also about torque plate width in respect to magnet face width and curvature.

Thanks

Floodrod.

I don't think your printed flywheel will do the job.
You need a good solid steel flywheel, as there will be quite a bit of force on the torque plates.
You could give it a try, but you will need a larger gap between the magnet and torque plates, and between the coil and torque plates.

Regarding your torque plates and magnets.
This is the very reason i stated in the first post that you will need to set up a test bed, so as you can work out which width and thickness best suits your magnets.

I will be doing videos as we go, to show you how to do all this.
The testing of different torque plates will take you some time, but it needs to be done to achieve the best results.

Added- how are those magnets orientated ?
They need to be north one end, and south the other.
I believe those ones you have are probably magnetised on each long face, which will make them far to large for what you need.
Do you have any 10-15mm round cylinder magnets ?


Brad

Thanks Brad.  The magnets are North / South on the ends.  And a test bed will be built and used.  Just starting with what I have on-hand to get some data and a feel for they system.  Then I can test, replace, tweak, change, and optimize.

Quote from: floodrod on August 31, 2023, 08:12:36 PM
Thanks Brad.  The magnets are North / South on the ends.  And a test bed will be built and used.  Just starting with what I have on-hand to get some data and a feel for they system.  Then I can test, replace, tweak, change, and optimize.

Ah, the magnets will be ok then.
The plastic flywheel may be ok as a test bed setup, so as you can get a feel of how this motor works.
Those two angled plates you have will work in the test bed setup.
You can use just about any metal for the torque plates.
I just use mild steel, from say like steel tube/pipe.
You just cut long strips out of the pipe, and hammer flat until the curve suits your flywheel.

Ok thanks.

I get these 3d printed rotors moving 3500 RPM with 4 of those 50mm magnets on it. They are heavy infill and pretty thick.

If I got to replace it, I will.  But it makes easy testing because I can swap out torque plate brackets easily.

here it is with those bars cut / mounted / and spinning  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9tGzauVRg

Just came across your thread Tinman  good work,  I am currently working on my own pulse motor i also want to share as an open source project, It has one thing in common with your design,  what you refer to as torque plates I am using as drive plates look at Mr Luling Magnet Motor and a new principal i call balanced field rotor where one drive plate is being pulled by a permanent magnet and the opposing plate is  being held by equal force of another magnet the pulses i use are only to break the balance and let the rotor move to its next position. will show more when its all proven and video made.

Quote from: dom444 on August 31, 2023, 08:51:52 PM
Just came across your thread Tinman  good work,  I am currently working on my own pulse motor i also want to share as an open source project, It has one thing in common with your design,  what you refer to as torque plates I am using as drive plates look at Mr Luling Magnet Motor and a new principal i call balanced field rotor where one drive plate is being pulled by a permanent magnet and the opposing plate is  being held by equal force of another magnet the pulses i use are only to break the balance and let the rotor move to its next position. will show more when its all proven and video made.

Hi Dom.

Sounds good.
Let us know when you have the thread up and running, although i would probably see it anyway.

I will go check out the Luling Magnet Motor.
Thanks

Quote from: floodrod on August 31, 2023, 08:49:09 PM
Ok thanks.

I get these 3d printed rotors moving 3500 RPM with 4 of those 50mm magnets on it. They are heavy infill and pretty thick.

If I got to replace it, I will.  But it makes easy testing because I can swap out torque plate brackets easily.

here it is with those bars cut / mounted / and spinning  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9tGzauVRg

Ok, well you can only try.
Not sure about the magnetic flux though, as with the steel flywheels, the flux can sink into the flywheel it self, and not saturate the torque plates. But it may be ok.

Do you have a coil or two you are going to use ?
I will cover the test required to show how much power you need to supply the coil to gain the same field strength as the PM.

Brad

No problem by the way I am a fellow Aus from Melbourne,
here is  Fredrich Luling Magnet Motor his use of large heavy iron plates is one of the best ways to convert a permanent magnet into rotational force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6cycmBwLb8

Quote from: tinman on August 31, 2023, 09:22:27 PM
Ok, well you can only try.
Not sure about the magnetic flux though, as with the steel flywheels, the flux can sink into the flywheel it self, and not saturate the torque plates. But it may be ok.

Do you have a coil or two you are going to use ?
I will cover the test required to show how much power you need to supply the coil to gain the same field strength as the PM.

Brad

Yea, loads of them. I mounted a 24 AWG coil that reads 4.8 Ohms. 500 turns.  I watched your video about coil turns, and this will probably need to be tweaked and replaced, but it's a starting point.  Only thing is the core material is not ideal..  Soft iron is hard to find around here.  But I got good amounts of laminated steel tranfo materials. 

Believe it or not, the coil actually mounted darn close to the torque plate.  About 1mm spacing or so.

YES- please do tell about that coil test..

Quote from: tinman on August 31, 2023, 07:25:52 AM
Hi MagnaProp.

First up, that is a great power supply for the price, and would suit your needs.
I have one that is only 5amps max output, and it has done me over the years.
We are working with quite small amounts of power with these pulse motors.

Second-- There is no problem at all with you joining in on the build, as there are many people that can help you out along the way.
When i started 20 odd years ago, i didn't even know what a transistor was lol.

Third--you are not going to need any where near 1k for this build.
I would be surprised if you used more than $50.00, as most of the stuff can be had from scrap.

So yes, please join in, and learn as we go.

Great, thanks for the help and encouragement. I went ahead and purchased that power supply. I tried to find a hanging scale that displays in grams but all I could find are ones for fish or luggage that only display in kg or lb which I'm guessing isn't accurate enough for our use. Anyone with recommendations for an accurate hanging scale that displays in grams and ships to the USA is appreciated.

Here's an image of some wire and magnets I found in a storage bin at home. The big red spool is 32 AWG, 1/2 LB. The big green spool is 23 AWG, 628 Feet, 16oz. More than happy to buy what you recommend if this stuff won't work.

Quote from: MagnaProp on September 01, 2023, 12:47:14 AM
Great, thanks for the help and encouragement. I went ahead and purchased that power supply. I tried to find a hanging scale that displays in grams but all I could find are ones for fish or luggage that only display in kg or lb which I'm guessing isn't accurate enough for our use. Anyone with recommendations for an accurate hanging scale that displays in grams and ships to the USA is appreciated.

Here's an image of some wire and magnets I found in a storage bin at home. The big red spool is 32 AWG, 1/2 LB. The big green spool is 23 AWG, 628 Feet, 16oz. More than happy to buy what you recommend if this stuff won't work.

My scales only measure in kg or lb, but in the kg range, they go to 3 decimal points. I suspect the ones you are talking about will do the same.

Your 23 awg will be just right, as that is about .57mm. between .5-.6mm is ideal.
Can you give me the diameter of those round neo magnets you have in that lot.
If they are between 8mm and 12mm, they will be fine as well.

Brad

Quote from: dom444 on August 31, 2023, 09:30:32 PM
No problem by the way I am a fellow Aus from Melbourne,
here is  Fredrich Luling Magnet Motor his use of large heavy iron plates is one of the best ways to convert a permanent magnet into rotational force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6cycmBwLb8

Great to hear another Aussie here.

Do you have a pic or two of your build so far ?

Brad

Hi Brad you don't know me yet but I am a long time member. Only not really that active on this forum. Have been active in the field for over 20 years. Ron Pugh and Gyula will vouch for me me if needed. I am interested to join this one. Have 3d printers, lathe and mill ready to go. I know electronics write firmware and do PCB design. Let's do this.

Kind regards,
Steven

not yet i am putting together the rotor with  6 drive plates 30 degree spacing, still have to balance it, and have to assemble 2 flynn magnetic assembly's
to drive it, means winding coils trying to find  0.25mm enameled wire in a bulk roll not so easy to find here. unless you want to pay $20 for 100grams.
and have to build a commutator  to flip the polarity's on the coils.   I have a full bridge circuit run by hall sensors i designed but i want direct contact with the coils so i can run them  on as low a voltage as possible  fets need at least 12v to turn on, i hope to harvest the back EMF as well as the neutralizing pulses from the back of the flynn assembly's  like i said the motor runs on magnets,  power is only to flip the magnetic field and cause an imbalance.

here is a flynn assembly working with 1.5v  cell              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4PWiyN1G7I

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 01, 2023, 04:15:56 AM
Hi Brad you don't know me yet but I am a long time member. Only not really that active on this forum. Have been active in the field for over 20 years. Ron Pugh and Gyula will vouch for me me if needed. I am interested to join this one. Have 3d printers, lathe and mill ready to go. I know electronics write firmware and do PCB design. Let's do this.

Kind regards,
Steven

Sounds good Steven.
Seems you have all the gear to make a good machine.
You will need a good heavy flywheel, around 200-400mm in diameter.

Quote from: tinman on September 01, 2023, 02:15:08 AM
...Can you give me the diameter of those round neo magnets you have in that lot...

Thanks for all the info. The round neos are 12.7mm so a little bit on the big side perhaps.

I just ordered a scale that goes to 3 decimal places and a 6 inch long, 12.7mm diameter soft iron rod. I have a dremel tool so I can cut the rod shorter if needed.

Currently searching for something I can purchase to act as the large spinning flywheel rotor part.

Hi,

I would like to join the project however I am not sure If I would be able to keep the necessary quality of my model. I really think that Inverted realities channel is the best channel on the topic and probably everyone here will agree.
I wish everybody luck with the project.

 :)

Quote from: MagnaProp on September 01, 2023, 12:55:04 PM
Thanks for all the info. The round neos are 12.7mm so a little bit on the big side perhaps.

I just ordered a scale that goes to 3 decimal places and a 6 inch long, 12.7mm diameter soft iron rod. I have a dremel tool so I can cut the rod shorter if needed.

Currently searching for something I can purchase to act as the large spinning flywheel rotor part.

Those neo magnets will do the job just fine.
The idea here is to spend as little as possible, and use what you have lying around.

Brad

 

Quoteauthor=Kapalek link=topic=19546.msg581892#msg581892 date=1693596745

QuoteI would like to join the project however I am not sure If I would be able to keep the necessary quality of my model. 
I wish everybody luck with the project.

Just give it a try.
You can only do your best.

QuoteI really think that Inverted realities channel is the best channel on the topic and probably everyone here will agree.

Yea, he seems to know a bit about the topic  ;D ;D ;D

Brad

Just so as every one knows, below is a pic of what we will be referring to as the gate.
If you remove one of the PMs, and replace it with a coil, this is what we will have.
The torque plates will be passing through this gate.

You will need to put aside the normal understanding of how things should be set up for this build.
One would think that the gate should be made from having a south field on one side, and a north field on the other, in order to obtain maximum pull force. But this simply is not true. When using two like poles facing each other, the field produced will not be the sum of the two fields, but in excess of 3 times the field strength.

I will have a video up before the days end, showing the test process.


Brad

Here is a video to show you how to match your coil to your permanent magnet, and set up your test bed.
Also shows the difference between a standard pulse motors torque, to that of the torque force motor.

Next video will show you the torque curve difference between a standard pulse motor, and the torque force motor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3UZ-BZoq-A

Here is a jpeg of the graph you can print out in relation to the next series of tests you will need to carry out, in relation to the next video.


Brad

At this point, i would like to say-make sure you watch all video's in order, and carry out the needed tests.

This test is a must, as it will give you a base line.
From this base line, you can make small changes, and compare those changes to your base line.
This way, you will know if you are going in the right direction, or the wrong direction.
This will also show you that this unconventional motor design, far exceeds that of the normal designed motor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwbP4b4tlFU


Brad

Hi Brad, seen the videos. Very clear and informative.
Now at this point I have the following question since you obviousness have gone much further then this over the years.

The baseline in the videos is a static 2 amp as a case example. But is the voltage required to reach this 2 amps in a 'dynamic situation' (aka a running motor) the same when your pulse motor version is compared versus a convectional pulse motor. When the motor is running the magnet will induce a voltage in the coil (back emf) which will counter the voltage you put in. So was this ever compared versus the 'conventional' pulse motor design? I am not saying it is like this, but it could be that your system needs 25v input to reach 2amps while the conventional design needs 15v to reach 2amps (in a running motor that is), or maybe even the other way around. Is this known?

Will start the making of the rotor soon.

Kind regards,
Steven

Today's post, https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg581931/#msg581931, reply #3079, second link, included the graphics attached. Similar to what tinman is developing. Just found it interesting, perhaps useful for some.

Also, when the torque is from a PM and an electromagnet at a constant excitation, result can be considered cogging. Note graphs and discussion on pages 3&4 in attached PDF.
bi

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 02, 2023, 05:44:51 PM
Hi Brad, seen the videos. Very clear and informative.
Now at this point I have the following question since you obviousness have gone much further then this over the years.

The baseline in the videos is a static 2 amp as a case example. But is the voltage required to reach this 2 amps in a 'dynamic situation' (aka a running motor) the same when your pulse motor version is compared versus a convectional pulse motor.  So was this ever compared versus the 'conventional' pulse motor design? I am not saying it is like this, but it could be that your system needs 25v input to reach 2amps while the conventional design needs 15v to reach 2amps (in a running motor that is), or maybe even the other way around. Is this known?

Will start the making of the rotor soon.

Kind regards,
Steven

QuoteWhen the motor is running the magnet will induce a voltage in the coil (back emf) which will counter the voltage you put in.

Ah, but this is unlike any conventional motor, as the magnet does not move, and does not induce any back EMF in the coil.
The coil is already induced with the static magnetic field of the PM, and when the coil is switched on, it is producing the very same field that is already induced within it from the PM, not the opposite field like in the pulse motor example.

I will be doing a video on this soon.

Brad

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this setup will make the rotor piece exit the mag field. I can see how it will be drawn into the field, but then I see it cogging. Obviously I am all wet and its not a jab but I'll just have to make the thing and see it. 
thay

Quote from: Thaelin on September 03, 2023, 12:19:55 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around how this setup will make the rotor piece exit the mag field. I can see how it will be drawn into the field, but then I see it cogging. Obviously I am all wet and its not a jab but I'll just have to make the thing and see it. 
thay

There is an exit force required, which is why that same force was subtracted from the input force.
So that has been accounted for.

Quote from: bistander on September 02, 2023, 09:15:56 PM
Today's post, https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg581931/#msg581931 (https://overunity.com/19069/holcomb-energy-systemsbreakthrough-technology-to-the-world/msg581931/#msg581931), reply #3079, second link, included the graphics attached. Similar to what tinman is developing. Just found it interesting, perhaps useful for some.

Also, when the torque is from a PM and an electromagnet at a constant excitation, result can be considered cogging. Note graphs and discussion on pages 3&4 in attached PDF.
bi

Hmm yeah dunno. This has been tried many times including by me. In static cases yes it does increase the holding torque by 3.5 times which is easy to test and is real. But try using that in a rotating reluctance type motor and you will find that adding the magnets does nothing. I made models where you can run the motor without magnets and later drop them in while running it and is does nothing. This is because in such a reluctance motor the gap between stater and rotor finger is just too large and too much of a resistance for the magnets to want to 'switch' out of their close looped core structure, over to the airgapped rotor piece. The gap is of course getting less and less when the alignment increases but by the time the gaps are so close that the magnet will switch over, the forces have become tangential and add nothing to the rotation. 

Quote from: tinman on September 02, 2023, 10:36:17 PM
Ah, but this is unlike any conventional motor, as the magnet does not move, and does not induce any back EMF in the coil.
The coil is already induced with the static magnetic field of the PM, and when the coil is switched on, it is producing the very same field that is already induced within it from the PM, not the opposite field like in the pulse motor example.

I will be doing a video on this soon.
Brad

Hi Brad, fair enough but I would like to add that anything that can dynamically change the inductance of a coil in any way will cause a loading effect. That is also the reason why reluctance motors still have loading effects despite 'no magnet' is influencing the coil, since the making and the braking of the core structure heavily influences the inductance the coil. If you put an inductance meter on the coil and you rotate the wheel and the inductance changed then a loading effect will manifest.

Also to me when you fire your coil it needs to repel the field from the magnet right? If so that means it needs to completely reverse the field that is statically put in there by the stationary magnet if not then it would be attracting it. But since you repel it, it is the opposite polarity and this reversion of field will also cost you since in order for the repelling field you want to manifest you first have the invest the energy to 'drive the field of the magnet out' and flip the polarity so that they repel.

All in all I have seen too many threads go under by people criticizing things, I do not want that to happen so I will build it as instructed!

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 03, 2023, 06:09:36 AM
Hi Brad, fair enough but I would like to add that anything that can dynamically change the inductance of a coil in any way will cause a loading effect. That is also the reason why reluctance motors still have loading effects despite 'no magnet' is influencing the coil, since the making and the braking of the core structure heavily influences the inductance the coil. If you put an inductance meter on the coil and you rotate the wheel and the inductance changed then a loading effect will manifest.

Also to me when you fire your coil it needs to repel the field from the magnet right? If so that means it needs to completely reverse the field that is statically put in there by the stationary magnet if not then it would be attracting it. But since you repel it, it is the opposite polarity and this reversion of field will also cost you since in order for the repelling field you want to manifest you first have the invest the energy to 'drive the field of the magnet out' and flip the polarity so that they repel.

All in all I have seen too many threads go under by people criticizing things, I do not want that to happen so I will build it as instructed!

I welcome any input, and when it comes to this motor, and i understand that most will be thinking in conventional terms.

I will try to explain as best i can what happens in this situation.
I took the time to run my test motor with and with out the PM-nothing else was changed, and took scope shots to show the change.

!please note that this is a different coil i am trying out, to that of the one i used in the static test. Larger wire with less turns-to get the voltage down.!

The first thing you will see, is how quickly the coil reaches it's peak current of 2 amps with the magnet in place. (the CVR is 1 ohm)
When the coil is switched on, an apposing field starts to build in the coil. This causes a rapid exponential magnetic field expansion through the windings of the coil, which in turn, causes a rapid flow of current through the coil. This is why the coil can reach it's peak current of 2 amps faster than would be normal. You do not see this in the scope shot of the motor running without the magnet.

The next thing you see, is a rapid drop in voltage across the coil, right as the current hits its peak.
This is the point where the combined magnetic fields in the core, see a rapid decrease as the fields flip from the coil core, and latch onto the torque plate.
At the same time, the coils inductance is increasing, which is why the current flatlines at 2 amps, and the voltage remains low.
As you can see, the voltage drops from 6v slowly for 2ms, and drops rapidly to below 4v for the duration of max current flow.
You will also see this does not happen when the motor is run without the PM, and the current rise time is much greater.

You will also see that when the PM is removed, the motor consumes more power, the current rises slower and higher, and even after 5 minutes running, could not reach as high rpm, as can be seen by the time constant on the scope shots

The inductive kickback energy is greater for the motor running without the magnet, and that is because both the current through the coil, and the voltage across the coil was higher, and so the coil had more stored energy to release.

It is interesting that most say PM's cant do useful work, as the only thing we did, was remove the PM, and lost a lot of efficiency in the motor.

So all in all, the motor without the PM consumes more power for less rpm and torque.
Seems like the PM is doing useful work to me, as that is the only thing we changed between the two runs.


Brad

Quote from: tinman on September 03, 2023, 07:25:32 AM
I welcome any input, and when it comes to this motor, and i understand that most will be thinking in conventional terms.

I will try to explain as best i can what happens in this situation.
I took the time to run my test motor with and with out the PM-nothing else was changed, and took scope shots to show the change.

!please note that this is a different coil i am trying out, to that of the one i used in the static test. Larger wire with less turns-to get the voltage down.!

The first thing you will see, is how quickly the coil reaches it's peak current of 2 amps with the magnet in place. (the CVR is 1 ohm)
When the coil is switched on, an apposing field starts to build in the coil. This causes a rapid exponential magnetic field expansion through the windings of the coil, which in turn, causes a rapid flow of current through the coil. This is why the coil can reach it's peak current of 2 amps faster than would be normal. You do not see this in the scope shot of the motor running without the magnet.

The next thing you see, is a rapid drop in voltage across the coil, right as the current hits its peak.
This is the point where the combined magnetic fields in the core, see a rapid decrease as the fields flip from the coil core, and latch onto the torque plate.
At the same time, the coils inductance is increasing, which is why the current flatlines at 2 amps, and the voltage remains low.
As you can see, the voltage drops from 6v slowly for 2ms, and drops rapidly to below 4v for the duration of max current flow.
You will also see this does not happen when the motor is run without the PM, and the current rise time is much greater.

You will also see that when the PM is removed, the motor consumes more power, the current rises slower and higher, and even after 5 minutes running, could not reach as high rpm, as can be seen by the time constant on the scope shots

The inductive kickback energy is greater for the motor running without the magnet, and that is because both the current through the coil, and the voltage across the coil was higher, and so the coil had more stored energy to release.

It is interesting that most say PM's cant do useful work, as the only thing we did, was remove the PM, and lost a lot of efficiency in the motor.

So all in all, the motor without the PM consumes more power for less rpm and torque.
Seems like the PM is doing useful work to me, as that is the only thing we changed between the two runs.


Brad

Hi Brad, from what I see, I agree that running it your way indeed is more efficient than the conventional way.
You sure that the voltage drop at 2amp is not caused by the 2 amp max control on your power supply? And that you did not had the 2amp max set on the 'without magnet' run? Just wondering.
Do you have a cap on the flyback capture circuit? What is clamping its voltage?
Kind regards,
Steven

Hi,
I am not sure what is the radius of this rotor but if you could check the NewtonOmeter (grams of pull x radius) value and then estimate at what rotational speed this pulse still has its kick power (about 10Hz maybe?).
So power should be (rotational speed) x (grams pull x radius) = (mech power)
(400 rpm) x (300g x 5cm) = mech power rotor. (Just an example of calculation idea)
Question is what would be pulse duration of 2A@10V ?

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 03, 2023, 03:42:14 PM
Hi Brad, from what I see, I agree that running it your way indeed is more efficient than the conventional way.
You sure that the voltage drop at 2amp is not caused by the 2 amp max control on your power supply? And that you did not had the 2amp max set on the 'without magnet' run? Just wondering.
Do you have a cap on the flyback capture circuit? What is clamping its voltage?
Kind regards,
Steven

Power supply was wound up to 5amps.
I also have a high current 63v 10,000uF cap on the input side of the motor, before the cvr.
The flyback is being sent to a rather flat 18650 cell.


Brad

Quote from: Kapalek on September 03, 2023, 06:20:04 PM
Hi,
I am not sure what is the radius of this rotor but if you could check the NewtonOmeter (grams of pull x radius) value and then estimate at what rotational speed this pulse still has its kick power (about 10Hz maybe?).
So power should be (rotational speed) x (grams pull x radius) = (mech power)
(400 rpm) x (300g x 5cm) = mech power rotor. (Just an example of calculation idea)
Question is what would be pulse duration of 2A@10V ?

Not sure how you could achieve this with a pulse motor, as the grams of pull force is not a constant.
The pull force would have to be averaged over the degrees of measurements taken, then in my case times 4, as i have 4 torque plates.
The running pull force would be less than the static tests carried out.


Brad

  This is not really about the motor per se, but I tried to use a group of 18650's to capture the flyback and had a fire. Damn glad I had a pan close to dump it in and get outside so it could finish. For safety, use a resistor or such. Hate to see you go my route.
   About the motor, seems that a fair weight rotor and at least 4 plates is needed to run fair. Did a small test with a cutoff wheel and one plate between a 1/2" mag and a coil of 200 turns on a soft bolt with the head cut off. Not as hard to remove as I thought it would be. Sooooooo, Guess I need to break out the old cutting boards with setups for 1/2" shaft and make a rotor to get setup with.  The chase is on.
thay

Quote from: Thaelin on September 04, 2023, 04:47:59 AM
  This is not really about the motor per se, but I tried to use a group of 18650's to capture the flyback and had a fire. Damn glad I had a pan close to dump it in and get outside so it could finish. For safety, use a resistor or such. Hate to see you go my route.
   About the motor, seems that a fair weight rotor and at least 4 plates is needed to run fair. Did a small test with a cutoff wheel and one plate between a 1/2" mag and a coil of 200 turns on a soft bolt with the head cut off. Not as hard to remove as I thought it would be. Sooooooo, Guess I need to break out the old cutting boards with setups for 1/2" shaft and make a rotor to get setup with.  The chase is on.
thay

I would say you over charged the battery.
Any higher than 4.4 volts for an 18650 cell, and smoke will come.

Did some simulations on the effect of torque plate thicknesses relative to the magnet.
The Plate is just above the gate in this test.
In all the test the gaps between magnet and plate is the same. The colors don't matter, the important value is the Newton on the Y-component. This is the pull force on the plate. There is an optimal plate thickness and it does matter quite a bit it seems.

Second test but now the plate is more in the gate.

Now the plate needs to be thicker to reach optimal torque it seems. Which is obviously not possible so some tradeoff need to be found. All in all it seems the plate can be thicker than what I saw in the videos.

Quoteauthor=Nali2001 link=topic=19546.msg582042#msg582042 date=1693989486

QuoteDid some simulations on the effect of torque plate thicknesses relative to the magnet.
The Plate is just above the gate in this test.
In all the test the gaps between magnet and plate is the same. The colors don't matter, the important value is the Newton on the Y-component. This is the pull force on the plate.

QuoteThere is an optimal plate thickness and it does matter quite a bit it seems.

I am not a fan of simulators, but it seems to agree with exactly what i said in the videos.
I have been perfecting this motor for that past 3 years, and yes, plate thickness, plate width, gap, and magnet/coil relationship all play a big part in performance.

Can you use the sim to test at different distances - torque plate to gate distances, and then the same using a coil attracting a magnet, such as i did in my pull force comparison test. Would be good to see the results of the simulated test, say from 20mm away as a starting point, to say 2mm away from the PM/coil, at say 2mm increments.

Brad

Quoteauthor=Nali2001 link=topic=19546.msg582043#msg582043 date=1693989688

QuoteSecond test but now the plate is more in the gate.
Now the plate needs to be thicker to reach optimal torque it seems. Which is obviously not possible so some tradeoff need to be found.

This depends on what type of flywheel you use.
The reason you need a thicker plate in the gate, is because a thinner plate will become saturated with the magnetic field-also mentioned in the videos. If you run your sim again, but have a large mass of steel to replicate the large steel flywheel, you will see that you can reduce the thickness of the torque plate.

QuoteAll in all it seems the plate can be thicker than what I saw in the videos.

It can be, but then you end up with the PM and coil gap becoming larger, reducing the combined field concentration.
Add the large mass of steel to imitate the flywheel, and you will see you can reduce the thickness of the torque plates, and achieve the same pull force.

Brad

Will you release videos and plans of the "working" motor? Thank you.

Quote from: wopwops on September 06, 2023, 12:43:36 PM
Will you release videos and plans of the "working" motor? Thank you.

These are the build plans.
My shop built prototype is very much the same, only the flywheel and torque plates are all one piece, and lay horizontal.

I deleted this post. I didn't intend to upset people. Take care.

Quote from: wopwops on September 07, 2023, 03:11:21 AM
Maybe it was explained somewhere that I missed, but is there a reason why you don't show the working machine and the plans for it? If you want people to replicate it, wouldn't releasing videos and exact plans bring in a lot of people who are otherwise on the sidelines? ...

Tinman has already given away enough information to build one. Even better, his video tutorials explain why it works and how to tune it up.
Knowing that, building a bigger more powerful one is possible.

Anything else he cares to share will be icing on the cake.

PS
Hardly any interest in this? Really? Over 4,000 views on this topic in 8 days says otherwise.

Quote from: tinman on August 30, 2023, 12:55:41 PM
So before i get this thread up and running, are there actually any builders still on this forum ?

Is there anyone that would like to build a pulse motor like no other ?-the way a pulse motor should be built, meaning-very unconventional.

My claim--
I will show you how to build the test bed, which will become the motor it self.
I will show you how to !at the very least! double the torque of your pulse motor, without using any more power to do so.

I will also provide all the up to date stl files for those with 3D printers. ( 3D printer not needed if you don't have one)

No claims will be made here by me.
You build the motor, and you disclose the outcome.

This motor is open source, but the design remains mine.

What i will say about this !pulse motor!, is that it will use less power than any other pulse motor out there, for a given amount of torque.
You could say that this motor is !very! efficient.

Let me know if you are interested in building this !pulse! motor, and we will get the ball rolling.

Brad

WopWops
Critiques from anonymous members?
Very odd post indeed?
Especially given the FIRST POST introduction above ?( Brads rules)
As far as views ?( for this forum it's very high )


Here with viewer skill set ..there are all the views one could ask for ,by persons like Cadman and many others ,
Who have built and shared their work,
  still sending out invitations to those who shared years back,
Like Slayer ,laser saber, scientists,engineers etc etc


Nothing but gratitude !
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
I remember reading a comment years ago
If you want to change the world
"BE" that change !


Tinman surely tries..( please remove this post ( mine)
@
Wopwops Please try not to be the "monkey wrench"
People are actually working here ( just getting started !

Hi Brad just wanted to run this by you first:

Turns out that it is a bit hard to find a steel rotor 20cm+
I do have a 30x40x 1cm thick plate I can machine to a 30cm circle, but it is aluminum. I can add some steel mass to the center to enhance the weight if needed. So is aluminum ok by you or do you have a theory that is needs to be steel?

The easiest way to get a decent flywheel is to find an old single cylinder air compressor.  Take the drive pulley/flywheel off and drill a hole in the center to match some precision skate board bearings.  You can probably find one of the old air compressors at a scrap yard or pawn shop.  I have attached a picture of mine without the coils or magnets so you can see it better.  I used a bicycle axle for my mounting axle.  It fit the center of the skate board bearings perfectly.  Mine runs perfectly true with no run-out or wobble.

Complete with built in fan for drag.

Quote from: tinman on September 01, 2023, 07:18:43 PM
Those neo magnets will do the job just fine.
The idea here is to spend as little as possible, and use what you have lying around...

Great. A few parts have arrived, the power unit and such. I'm still searching for a wheel. The one that arrived turned out to be aluminium and not steel as described in the add.

Going to try a Wheelbarrow wheel next. Those usually aren't aluminium.

I've looked at some cast iron flywheels. I've heard those can explode at high revolutions since the metal isn't made for spinning that fast. I've never built a pulse motor so I'm not sure if we get up to such high speeds or not.

Hi MagaProp,


I think your concern is a bit misplaced at the speeds we will archive.

QuoteThe maximum revs of cast iron flywheel depends on the type of flywheel and its intended use. Gray iron flywheels can be used as a stock replacement and in mild builds, but should never be associated with racing, high horsepower, sticky drag radial tires, or engines that operate beyond 6,000 rpm (https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/03/13/flywheels-101-choose-the-best-flywheel-for-your-engine-and-application/)[/font][/size]1 (https://www.onallcylinders.com/2020/03/13/flywheels-101-choose-the-best-flywheel-for-your-engine-and-application/)[/url][/color][/font][/size]. [/font][/size]High-velocity flywheels can have a velocity between 30,000 rpm to 80,000 rpm, and can be adjusted up to 100,000 rpm (https://www.theengineerspost.com/flywheel/)[/font][/size]2 (https://www.theengineerspost.com/flywheel/)[/url][/color][/font][/size].[/font][/size]
[size=78%]
[/size]
[size=78%]Ron [/size]

I agree with i_ron.  My experience with this motor is you will probably see speeds of between 400 and 600 rpm depending on you building skills and proper tuning.


Carroll

Thanks i_ron and citfta for the info. I'll try to get something working first then worry about breaking the sound barrier with the speed.

I received this white wheelbarrow wheel today. A magnet sticks to it so that sounds good. The rim is about 8.5 inches diameter and the solid rubber tire was easy enough to cut off with a long box utter and wood chisel I have. It's a wheelboarrow wheel so the bearings aren't exactly super smooth but hopefully we can get it moving. Now to find a way to attache the little metal part to this rim.

Hi Brad, is there a recommended magnet diameter? I have 20mm and 10mm laying around. Do you tend to keep the diameter of the core of the electromagnet the same diameter as the magnet? What core material do you use. Normal silicon steel lamination should be fine right? Thanks!

Nali:
    Brad did mention to keep magnet 90% of a soft iron core. I have 1/2" mags and will use a 9/16" soft bolt with the head cut off.
All:
     Have most of the info needed but still have not seen if and when the coil should be shut off for the best results. Still trying to see how the rotor escapes the magnet. Does the two north facing fields make a dead spot?
thay

Quoteauthor=Thaelin link=topic=19546.msg582185#msg582185 date=1694467679

[/quote]

Quotebut still have not seen if and when the coil should be shut off for the best results.

That was clearly shown and explained in this video, which is why it is important to carry out this test.
There is no way i can tell you when the coil should be turned on or shut off on each individual motor without seeing the torque curve for that motor.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwbP4b4tlFU

QuoteStill trying to see how the rotor escapes the magnet.

Also clearly explained in the video, where the attraction force was removed from the pull force test by zeroing out the scales, so as to account for the very same force required for the torque plate to leave the gate.

QuoteDoes the two north facing fields make a dead spot?

No, there is no 2 facing north fields when the torque plate is leaving the gate, as the coil was switched off long before that.

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 11, 2023, 07:46:28 AM
Hi Brad, is there a recommended magnet diameter? I have 20mm and 10mm laying around. Do you tend to keep the diameter of the core of the electromagnet the same diameter as the magnet? What core material do you use. Normal silicon steel lamination should be fine right? Thanks!

I would start with the 10mm magnets first.
The core of the electromagnets should be some 10-20% larger in diameter.

Quote from: Nali2001 on September 08, 2023, 01:34:37 PM
Hi Brad just wanted to run this by you first:

Turns out that it is a bit hard to find a steel rotor 20cm+
I do have a 30x40x 1cm thick plate I can machine to a 30cm circle, but it is aluminum. I can add some steel mass to the center to enhance the weight if needed. So is aluminum ok by you or do you have a theory that is needs to be steel?

Steel helps carry the magnetic fields, so as the torque plates do not become saturated.

  Hit a stroke of luck, metal shop close is plasma cutting me a .25 round 9" for only $80 .  Should be a sufficient flywheel effect I'd say. So, I guess its off to Ace for the tabs.
thay

   Coil done. 2 1/2" neo's glued together. Making a slider for the coil and mags. Shooting for about 1mm on each side of the tab as TM talks. Finally got my head around this I think. 5 ohms on the coil and has good push back on the mags. Still have to drill the rotor for the tabs. Going for 4 tabs at the moment. Big enough for 8 if I want. Will use a hall effect tied to sense mags on shaft and driving a 600v 29A IGBT because it has no body diode. Reason for that is my recovery circuit I am working on. Had a transformer with a 1.2ohm secondary of #20 wire and using only 2 ma. [size=78%] Figure if I collect back as much as possible and send as much possible to rotational force, it will only need a few ma to keep going and up the batts. [/size]
[size=78%]   So how is every one getting on? Hope to hear from others soon.[/size]
[size=78%]thay[/size]

Sounds good Thay, I have been working on the rotor.


https://youtu.be/RuiKPJUkuXM (https://youtu.be/RuiKPJUkuXM)


Ron

Quote from: i_ron on September 17, 2023, 12:26:43 PM
Sounds good Thay, I have been working on the rotor.


https://youtu.be/RuiKPJUkuXM (https://youtu.be/RuiKPJUkuXM)


Ron

Very nice Ron.
That should do the trick.

Quote from: Thaelin on September 17, 2023, 03:56:13 AM
   Coil done. 2 1/2" neo's glued together. Making a slider for the coil and mags. Shooting for about 1mm on each side of the tab as TM talks. Finally got my head around this I think. 5 ohms on the coil and has good push back on the mags. Still have to drill the rotor for the tabs. Going for 4 tabs at the moment. Big enough for 8 if I want. Will use a hall effect tied to sense mags on shaft and driving a 600v 29A IGBT because it has no body diode. Reason for that is my recovery circuit I am working on. Had a transformer with a 1.2ohm secondary of #20 wire and using only 2 ma. [size=78%] Figure if I collect back as much as possible and send as much possible to rotational force, it will only need a few ma to keep going and up the batts. [/size]
[size=78%]   So how is every one getting on? Hope to hear from others soon.[/size]
[size=78%]thay[/size]

Great to hear Thae.

Slooooow but steady progress. Upgraded bearings will need be found eventually but getting the process set up is my first goal.

I'm throwing my hat into the ring too. This makes 4 builds I'm working on now, but at least they are all related, and might be combined.

I intend to keep as close to the build instructions as possible and to that end I have collected the following materials so far. Four 7 ga plasma cut mild steel disks slightly over 12" diameter, several mild steel 10 ga strips for the torque plates, skate board bearings, and a precision ground 8mm rod and 20 ga wire for the coils to start with. Each of those disks weigh about 5.5 lbs and sandwiching them together will give 4 different flywheel masses to experiment with.

Didn't have enough of the right size magnets so those are on the way now, 1/2" x 1" N42 neos. I also don't have the soft iron core material (not going to use powdered iron for this) so I am thinking about using some lengths of 14 ga baler wire ties and assemble those into the cores. If I use a 1/2" schedule 40 pvc as the former it will give a core OD of roughly 9/16". Baler wire ties are 1018 steel, but it comes already annealed to dead soft.

Want to say- I am pleased to see so many builds going on this.

I finally sourced a free elliptical exercise machine which I am hoping has a decent flywheel in it.  Just gotta get my arse across state lines to pick it up.. 

Keep it up fellas. 

Brad have there been changes in your design since the last time I worked on this?

Quote from: Jimboot on September 19, 2023, 11:03:26 PM
Brad have there been changes in your design since the last time I worked on this?

Hi Jim.
No, it is much the same.
The only change is the coil triggering system.
I now use a hall switch to switch on the transistor. I just glued 4 small PMs on the flywheel to trigger the hall.
This removes all those blades we were using in the opto interrupter system.

I see in your last video, you got down to just 7mA draw, with all those big blades attached to the flywheel.
Was that including the recycling of the inductive kickback ?, or was that just been burnt off ?

Brad

Got a coil wound up. Getting close to having it all mounted so I can add some power. Any last recommendations on how to power it up without burning stuff up? A coil seems kind of like a dead short to me. When I was little I wound some wire around a nail and connected it up to my model trail controller similar to the one shown here. It worked for a minute then I cranked up the juice and the train controller let out the magic smoke. I've never tried that since.

I recall the videos said to limit the amps to no more than 2. I'll have to check again for what voltage to use. Perhaps an electric thermometer would hel? That way I could keep tabs on the temp without risking getting shocked by touching it, to see if it's getting warm.

Remember TM's coil is 5 ohms as is mine. Another one I had was 1.5 and would take 3 amps easy at 30 volts and gave little pull factor. The on I have now is very close to the pull of the mags. Need a scale to set the wattage needed. I would bet your coil is say .5 ohms.
thay

Quote from: tinman on September 24, 2023, 07:42:20 AM
Hi Jim.
No, it is much the same.
The only change is the coil triggering system.
I now use a hall switch to switch on the transistor. I just glued 4 small PMs on the flywheel to trigger the hall.
This removes all those blades we were using in the opto interrupter system.

I see in your last video, you got down to just 7mA draw, with all those big blades attached to the flywheel.
Was that including the recycling of the inductive kickback ?, or was that just been burnt off ?

Brad

No recycling of kickback as was discussed in the other thread - https://youtu.be/D1lEQGVD1lk

Quote from: Thaelin on September 25, 2023, 05:50:06 AM
Remember TM's coil is 5 ohms as is mine. Another one I had was 1.5 and would take 3 amps easy at 30 volts and gave little pull factor. The one I have now is very close to the pull of the mags. Need a scale to set the wattage needed. I would bet your coil is say .5 ohms.
thay

My multimeter is saying about .6 ohms so you were right. I need to watch those videos again. I just need to mount the scale then I can finally start some tests. I have a new found respect for how fast tinman puts together his builds.

A big thanks Jim, you cleared up one of my misgivings on how this could work. Seeing this in action showed the operation I could not visualize. Now it fits and get this up. I am having some med issues as of late that are getting in the way of things. Will be mounting the tabs this weekend after drilling the rotor plate.


Can you tell me what voltage you were using with the 28ma draw? Looking forward.


thay

When making your coils, please keep the turn number high.
I will show you why here-->

Lets say we have a coil of say 300 turns, and it has a resistance of say 6 ohms.
This coil will draw 2 amps at 12 volts= 24 watts.
Magnetic field strength is determined by amp turns, and in the above case, we have 300x 2amp turns=600 amp turns.
If we wind a coil with say 600 turns, and it's resistance is 12 ohms, will still have the same amount of amp turns--600 amp turns, and
so our magnetic field strength is the same, only in the later case, we are now only using 12 volts @ 1amp= 12 watts of power.
We have halved our power consumption, but maintained the same magnetic field strength.

Don't worry about coil inductance too much, as the inductance of the coil increases as the torque plate gets closer to the coil core.
This is the reason the peak current flattens off at around 2 amps, regardless of the time period, as shown in previous videos.

The early versions of this motor used opto interrupters to switch on the transistor.
My later versions of the motor uses either reed switches, or hall switches to fire up the transistor.
This allows for better switching, and the elimination of large opto interrupter blades, and the power supply for the interrupter circuit.

Brad

Thanks for the info tinman I'll make another coil with a lot more turns as you explained. Thanks again.

Magnaprop

QuoteGot a coil wound up. Getting close to having it all mounted so I can add some power. Any last recommendations on how to power it up without burning stuff up?

One important aspect is the pulse time period.

When the current starts rising in a coil the magnetic field starts expanding. When the magnetic field is done expanding all the current starts generating heat in the resistance of the coil. We call this "flat lining", if we watch the current flow on a DSO it starts rising and when it flattens out it starts generating heat.

I often use a voltage sensor, current sensor and a hall effect magnetic field sensor attached to my DSO when tuning coils. This way we can tell how effective or efficient our setup is. Our goal is to produce the strongest magnetic field using the least amount of energy. So it pays to know how strong the magnetic field is and what it's doing relative to our input. 

AC

Is this helpful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbvZSYQOlKM
Please feel free to delete if not.

Still here, sharing some progress. Got a 10gk lifting weight and machined 7kg out of it.. its 27cm diameter.

Quote from: Thaelin on September 27, 2023, 04:47:21 AM
A big thanks Jim, you cleared up one of my misgivings on how this could work. Seeing this in action showed the operation I could not visualize. Now it fits and get this up. I am having some med issues as of late that are getting in the way of things. Will be mounting the tabs this weekend after drilling the rotor plate.


Can you tell me what voltage you were using with the 28ma draw? Looking forward.


thay

all my vids are on the channel. I ran it mostly at 30v . I think I shared everything. I went with longer bobbins to get more turns. Cheers

So very true AC, when I took a Gauss reading on this particular model I find that there is no 1+1=3 because the flux field has not made it to full strength. It doesn't reach full strength until the torque plate is centered over the coil/magnet.


The gauss probe is over the outside end of the coil so as it is going negative (yellow trace) the inboard end is going north.
 
Ron

Quote from: onepower on September 28, 2023, 07:27:58 PM
Magnaprop
One important aspect is the pulse time period.

When the current starts rising in a coil the magnetic field starts expanding. When the magnetic field is done expanding all the current starts generating heat in the resistance of the coil. We call this "flat lining", if we watch the current flow on a DSO it starts rising and when it flattens out it starts generating heat.

I often use a voltage sensor, current sensor and a hall effect magnetic field sensor attached to my DSO when tuning coils. This way we can tell how effective or efficient our setup is. Our goal is to produce the strongest magnetic field using the least amount of energy. So it pays to know how strong the magnetic field is and what it's doing relative to our input. 

AC

Quote from: i_ron on September 30, 2023, 12:19:54 PM
So very true AC, when I took a Gauss reading on this particular model I find that there is no 1+1=3 because the flux field has not made it to full strength. It doesn't reach full strength until the torque plate is centered over the coil/magnet.

The gauss probe is over the outside end of the coil so as it is going negative (yellow trace) the inboard end is going north.

I found it strange that so few people bothered to verify what an external magnetic is actually doing.

For example, below is a 3D map of the measured magnetic field density between two coils using sensors. It looks nothing like the flux lines most assume and there is nothing uniform about it. In fact the pictures most see in textbooks or on the net are a fabrication.

Consider a real map of Earths magnetic field density below with the picture found in many textbooks or a simulation. It looks nothing like what most imagine and it's not uniform.

Which begs the question, why do all the real magnetic field diagrams look nothing like what we were taught or the models?. This is why we need to be curious and do real experiments.

AC

Thanks all for the help. Getting behind in reading posts so I hope to catch up tonight.

I have a new coil made now (5.3 ohm). I'm finding it much more difficult to wind coils than I thought it would be, putting super glue on it to keep the coil from unraveling and such. My bobbin fell apart while I was winding this so it ended up longer and not just wider as the ends collapsed and it became a mess. Will try better on the next one but forging ahead with this for now. Need to get it mounted and make a few tweaks before I can run some tests.

Got the coils and magnets mounted. The white stuff under the electromagnet is some JB WaterWeld epoxy putty I had in the garage. It's not magnetic so I put some around the magnets to help keep things from moving around. I know the build doesn't look great and brings new meaning to "your building them wrong" but I'm learning as I go which is fun. Hoping it'll be good enough to see the efficiency effect we are after.

P.S. The other builds in this thread are looking great! Looking forward to seeing those run as well.

Somethings to think about:


- pulse at the rim, generate at the shaft
  Could be done with shaft magnets or from the inside side of the coil


- adding ring oscillators to pulse a second coil in resonance


- super capacitors parallel to the ground circuit (w diodes)
  to store stray currents that are otherwise dumped to ground


- bifilar (unipolar) pulse coils, to maximize electrical usage efficiently
  bipolar windings generally waste 1/2 of the current creating a field on the back of the coil


im sure we can add to the list

Sounds good to me sm0ky2. First things first though. We must follow the directions and do the initial tests before we can get jiggy wit it.

Construction updated photos attached. Super and hot glued a piece of foam board to the top and spray mounted the circular graph to that.  I'm itching to start turning the power on.

I know I am going way slow but besides the rotor I also now finished the coil. Its way more wraps then I would normally use. Its 11ohm. almost a 1cm thick layer of 0.5mm wire.

Your build quality looks really good to me. I hope to get up to that level next time around. I just finished going through the manual and some videos on how to use my power supply. That green GND port took some research to figure out. I've always known black and GND to be the same thing when messing with RC and Arduino. From the info I found, I should basically stay away from that "earth ground" in most setups I make. I feel that I'm getting closer to turning on the juice. I'm going through the test videos again to help me get that right.

Quote from: onepower on September 28, 2023, 07:27:58 PM
Magnaprop
One important aspect is the pulse time period.

When the current starts rising in a coil the magnetic field starts expanding. When the magnetic field is done expanding all the current starts generating heat in the resistance of the coil. We call this "flat lining", if we watch the current flow on a DSO it starts rising and when it flattens out it starts generating heat.

I often use a voltage sensor, current sensor and a hall effect magnetic field sensor attached to my DSO when tuning coils. This way we can tell how effective or efficient our setup is. Our goal is to produce the strongest magnetic field using the least amount of energy. So it pays to know how strong the magnetic field is and what it's doing relative to our input. 

AC

Thank you for the tips. I hope to put that info to use when we get to the circuit building part.

Got some power into the coil. I have a tesla meter so I thought I would use that to get the neos and the electro mag in the same ballpark before I try the pull test method we are supposed to do for getting the neo and electro mag evened out.

With the amps limited to 2 on my power supply, I turned up the voltage until the amps peaked at the 2 amp limit mark. The voltage went up to 10 and the tesla meter read (96.0mT). One of my neo magnets reads (211mT).

So I need to make this electromagnet twice as strong as it presently is. My question is should I limit the amps to 4 on my power supply then turn up the voltage until I hopefully reach about 211mT or is that too many amps and I just need to make a new electro magnet? Do I just turn up the voltage a little at a time and check the electro magnets temperature as I go? Asking about how to proceed since I find working with power supplies a bit scary at this early stage in my learning curve.

///////
As a side note I thought it was interesting how the number of neo mags relates to their power. It appears there may be a point of diminishing returns as more are stacked together, at least when measured at the pole tips it seems. I started with 12 neos and thought removing half the magnets would cut their power in half but that wasn't the case. I don't know if this has to do with the inverse square law thing or if just adding more neos together creates more flux resistance to move through. Attached picture is the reading of just one neo.This is what I found...


12 neos = 445 mT.
6  neos  = 390 mT.
1   neo  = 201 mT.


I noticed something while playing with the neos and the tesla meter around the house. Placing the neo on certain pieces of metal around the house made its magnetic strength noticeably stronger. I tried metal railing, the metal drying machine frame, a small metal bell and the tesla meter could go up by 30mT or more depending on what it was attracted to. Could having the neo surrounded by a steel rotor, steel electromagnet core and steel keeper instead of aluminium or plastic, as I see a lot of motors built out of, be part of the reason the magnetic force is more than twice as strong when the same poles are facing each other in this build?

I've hit a bit of a snag I think. I upped the current limit to 3 amps on my power supply and got up to 16v and 134mT. I noticed my electro mag getting very very slightly warm when on for about 10 seconds. I'm not sure how warm pulse motor coils usually get so I'm guessing I don't want to crank the amps more than the 3amp mark I am at now. This means my 134mT electro magnet still isn't close to a single neo's power of about 200mT.

This sounds like my electro magnet design may not be good enough. Tinman did say to add more wraps of copper but he didn't say to make the core longer. I'm thinking my longer core may have just added more eddy currents which defeated the purpose of adding more copper wraps.

I tried a smaller neo magnet, that is about half the size of what I'm presently using but it actually turned out to be stronger than the larger neo. I'm guessing the smaller size may have concentrating the field. I'm thinking about making a new electomagnet coil at this point. One with a shorter core and better bobbin that doesn't collapse on me.

Quote from: tinman on September 27, 2023, 08:45:02 AM
When making your coils, please keep the turn number high.
I will show you why here-->

Lets say we have a coil of say 300 turns, and it has a resistance of say 6 ohms.
This coil will draw 2 amps at 12 volts= 24 watts.
Magnetic field strength is determined by amp turns, and in the above case, we have 300x 2amp turns=600 amp turns.
If we wind a coil with say 600 turns, and it's resistance is 12 ohms, will still have the same amount of amp turns--600 amp turns, and
so our magnetic field strength is the same, only in the later case, we are now only using 12 volts @ 1amp= 12 watts of power.
We have halved our power consumption, but maintained the same magnetic field strength.

...

I'm trying to understand this better. I understand that amp turns is the amps times turns.

I don't understand how we got the 2 amp info in (2 amps at 12 volts= 24 watts.) from knowing only (300 turns, and it has a resistance of say 6 ohms).

So we started with 300 turns and 6 ohms resistance. How did we get the 2 amp value from that?

Quote from: MagnaProp on November 05, 2023, 07:34:43 AM
I'm trying to understand this better. I understand that amp turns is the amps times turns.

I don't understand how we got the 2 amp info in (2 amps at 12 volts= 24 watts.) from knowing only (300 turns, and it has a resistance of say 6 ohms).

So we started with 300 turns and 6 ohms resistance. How did we get the 2 amp value from that?

Hi Mag,
Haven't seen tinguy posting lately so I'll give it a shot.
Use Ohm's Law. V = I × R. Or I = V / R. So your 12 volt supply divided by the 6 ohm resistance of the coil takes 2 amperes to satisfy the equation.

When you double the # of turns on the coil from 300 to 600, you'll use twice the length of wire. Assuming it is the same gauge, twice the length will yield twice the resistance, 6 ohms to 12 ohms.

Now when you use Ohm's Law, the 12 volts are divided by 12 ohms yielding 1 ampere. But you now have 600 turns, so you still have 600 AT, (600 turns × 1 ampere = 600 ampere turns) same as before. But now, for the same the magnetomotive force (mmf or AT), you're using half the power ( 12W (12V×1A) vs 24W (12V×2A)).

You don't reduce the power required for free because you pay for twice the mass of copper, and associated space in your machine. But this is the method used in design to manage the heat. The lower wattage coil will run cooler.

Hope that helps.
bi

All:
    I am off line for a bit yet due to surgery's for skin cancer. Told all will be fine but added to heart issues, I am drug out. Another cut the 17th and two more mid Dec and will be out for a month. Will not have the use of my arms till Jan 10th they say. I will make it but have to deal with the garbage that follows.
                               Not asking for sympathy at all, just why I am not moving. Rotor and housing is done and ready.


Mags:
    The coil I have is an old wire spool from RS with 2 strands of #20 looped to one and will draw about 3 amps if I let it. Will in fact tho repel the 2 N43 .5 X .5 inch neo's. I am shooting for 15v due to the recover circuit I will add and the NiMi batt pack. The other coil I wound with #24 and 400 turns would not exit the magnets at all. Not really schooled in how to design a coil for a specific situation. Since I will be harvesting the kickback to around 90%+, I should be able to keep the input down to a minimum.


thay

Quote from: bistander on November 05, 2023, 11:48:37 AM...Use Ohm's Law. V = I × R. Or I = V / R. So your 12 volt supply divided by the 6 ohm resistance of the coil takes 2 amperes to satisfy the equation...

Hi bi. Thanks for all the info in that post. It has helped me understand it a bit better.

Quote from: Thaelin on November 05, 2023, 08:14:11 PM
All:
    I am off line for a bit...


Mags:
    The coil I have is an old wire spool from RS with 2 strands of #20 looped to one and will draw about 3 amps if I let it. Will in fact tho repel the 2 N43 .5 X .5 inch neo's...

No worries Thaelin. Life often gets in the way and it sounds like you are doing what needs to be done which is good. I for one will still be here when you get back up and running since I have a bit to go in learning how to make a pulse motor circuit and such. It'll be good to have you back when you're ready.

Thanks for the info on your spool and setup. I made a tweak to my electro magnet that got it up to 190mT using the same 15.5 volts and 3 amps as before but even that only matches one of my neos now. I was hoping to get up to about 400mT which is about 5 neos stuck together. So I'm still thinking of making a new coil.

Quote from: MagnaProp on November 05, 2023, 07:34:43 AM
I'm trying to understand this better. I understand that amp turns is the amps times turns.

I don't understand how we got the 2 amp info in (2 amps at 12 volts= 24 watts.) from knowing only (300 turns, and it has a resistance of say 6 ohms).

So we started with 300 turns and 6 ohms resistance. How did we get the 2 amp value from that?

To calculate the voltage drop in a circuit, we use the following formula: I=Ui/R, where I is the current in the circuit (measured in amperes, A), Ui is the voltage drop (measured in volts, V), R is the resistance, the unit of which is the ohm.
In this case, the formula for the effective voltage in the circuit is U=IR=E-Ir.
Power is defined by: W=UI, at the same time the current corresponds to the expression: I=U/R.
For the value of current in the circuit (source + load) the following condition must be fulfilled: Ui/R=I=U/R
it is kind of an axiom.
An example of circuit calculation is at the end of my article.

https://rakatskiy-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2017/08/generator-of-free-energy-vega-ukraine.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Excel spreadsheet for calculating circuit elements:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aRyIXNVCGkBHZj6Nzhjejwpj0LJ_kfmA/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=103757942593314724986&rtpof=true&sd=true

Thank you. Math and I don't get along too good so I appreciate the help on that.